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RE: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS

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  • Jeff Barr
    Julian says, ... Definitely! I was thinking about evangelizing syndication last night while walking past the offices of Deseret News in Salt Lake City (I m
    Message 1 of 18 , May 9, 2001
      Julian says,

      > ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
      > explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
      > *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
      > the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
      > aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.

      Definitely! I was thinking about evangelizing syndication last night while
      walking past the offices of "Deseret News" in Salt Lake City (I'm here for
      the day). We need a nice FAQ-like document, one that we control, which makes
      the business case first, and then proceeds to the details. This should be a
      one or two pager.

      The business case part should be pretty simple:

      Q: Why should I syndicate my site's headlines.

      A: Because an investment of just a few hours of development time will
      bring your site's headlines to the world in such a way that your
      site will get more traffic. There will be little, if any, continued
      investment.

      > [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
      > right now... Perhaps a group effort?

      We need a coordinator that can paste finished results into a master
      document (it should be a single document for easy printing). And we
      need an outline. The rest is easy. I'm in the "little busy" boat with
      Julian. I can contribute, but I cannot coordinate right now.

      Jeff;

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:47 AM
      To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS


      I have just had this conversation with a content provider.

      >On Tuesday, May 08, 2001 10:08 AM, Julian Bond wrote:
      >| Do you produce an RSS file for syndication of headlines?
      >| If you do, where is it?
      >| If you don't, why not?
      >| If you don't know what it is, look here http://www.blogspace.com/rss/
      >Please excuse my ignorance. I checked the site, distinct concise reasons
      >for why we should be offering RSS docs were not easily forthcoming and I
      >ran out of time. Please send me a link to a dummies guide, I am interested
      >but don't have time to trawl through RSS history looking for explanations
      >of why RSS should prevail.

      Here's another one from a site that outsources it's web development. I
      think I hit the outsourcing company not the owners.
      >No one has ever offered us money to produce one.

      ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
      explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
      *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
      the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
      aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.

      This particular guy is the webmaster for one of the titles at EMAP ("400
      titles"). I'm still hopeful that I can convince him.

      [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
      right now... Perhaps a group effort?

      --
      Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
      HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
      WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
      WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
      M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
      ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Dave Winer
      Jeff, what is RSS? Dave ... From: Jeff Barr To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:46 AM Subject: RE:
      Message 2 of 18 , May 9, 2001
        Jeff, what is RSS?

        Dave


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jeff Barr" <jeff@...>
        To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:46 AM
        Subject: RE: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS


        > Julian says,
        >
        > > ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
        > > explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
        > > *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
        > > the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
        > > aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.
        >
        > Definitely! I was thinking about evangelizing syndication last night while
        > walking past the offices of "Deseret News" in Salt Lake City (I'm here for
        > the day). We need a nice FAQ-like document, one that we control, which
        makes
        > the business case first, and then proceeds to the details. This should be
        a
        > one or two pager.
        >
        > The business case part should be pretty simple:
        >
        > Q: Why should I syndicate my site's headlines.
        >
        > A: Because an investment of just a few hours of development time will
        > bring your site's headlines to the world in such a way that your
        > site will get more traffic. There will be little, if any, continued
        > investment.
        >
        > > [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
        > > right now... Perhaps a group effort?
        >
        > We need a coordinator that can paste finished results into a master
        > document (it should be a single document for easy printing). And we
        > need an outline. The rest is easy. I'm in the "little busy" boat with
        > Julian. I can contribute, but I cannot coordinate right now.
        >
        > Jeff;
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:47 AM
        > To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS
        >
        >
        > I have just had this conversation with a content provider.
        >
        > >On Tuesday, May 08, 2001 10:08 AM, Julian Bond wrote:
        > >| Do you produce an RSS file for syndication of headlines?
        > >| If you do, where is it?
        > >| If you don't, why not?
        > >| If you don't know what it is, look here http://www.blogspace.com/rss/
        > >Please excuse my ignorance. I checked the site, distinct concise reasons
        > >for why we should be offering RSS docs were not easily forthcoming and I
        > >ran out of time. Please send me a link to a dummies guide, I am
        interested
        > >but don't have time to trawl through RSS history looking for explanations
        > >of why RSS should prevail.
        >
        > Here's another one from a site that outsources it's web development. I
        > think I hit the outsourcing company not the owners.
        > >No one has ever offered us money to produce one.
        >
        > ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
        > explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
        > *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
        > the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
        > aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.
        >
        > This particular guy is the webmaster for one of the titles at EMAP ("400
        > titles"). I'm still hopeful that I can convince him.
        >
        > [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
        > right now... Perhaps a group effort?
        >
        > --
        > Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
        > HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
        > WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
        > WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
        > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
        > ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Julian Bond
        Sometime it helps to wait a day or two before hitting the send key. I shouldn t even have to say this, but I m not trying to be contentious here, I m trying to
        Message 3 of 18 , May 12, 2001
          Sometime it helps to wait a day or two before hitting the send key. I
          shouldn't even have to say this, but I'm not trying to be contentious
          here, I'm trying to get some perspective.

          I came to this late, long after the major work was done on defining rss.
          I've read enough and done enough research to understand some of the
          sources of the discontent, but I really wonder what all the fuss is
          about. From where I'm standing, rss looks like a major success. I don't
          have figures to back it up, but I suspect it's *the* most successful XML
          format in terms of implementations. Anyone care to guess how many Mb of
          rss data are created every day?

          The competing standards are close enough that from the point of view of
          a consumer of rss, or a programmer parsing the data, the differences are
          a small pain but really not hard.

          So without further ado. And in order from the ridiculous to the
          sensible.

          Q: What is RSS?

          1: It's a set of three letters that seem to create tension between
          people whenever they're mentioned.

          2: It's a name not an acronym. At least no one acronym. At various
          times, it has been converted into an acronym meaning Rich Site Summary,
          Really Simple Syndication or something else entirely.

          3: It's one of several XML formats that Userland use to transport
          information around various parts of the Userland cloud. Despite (or
          perhaps, because of) their involvement in the development of several of
          the rss variants, their use of rss is subtly different to everyone
          else's. But the differences are so small as to be effectively irrelevant
          and the Userland sites are a major source of information in rss format.

          4: It's a name for a loose collection of related but subtly different
          and competing standards using XML. The standards are simple enough that
          it's easy to create the files either with code or by hand. They
          are also close enough that it's fairly trivial to write code that can
          read the data from any of them and do something useful with it. The
          standards are designed to allow a content generation website to
          syndicate its headlines to other websites in a simple, and easy to
          create form. Inevitably, inventive people have thought of many other
          sources and uses.

          It's hard to tell how many websites publish an RSS file but estimates
          suggest there are now >4000 publically accessible rss feeds on the
          internet. Manila and most of the "Slash" codesets like Scoop,
          PHP-Nuke and Drupal generate rss by default. In addition, there are
          several efforts round the web to convert existing websites into an rss
          feed with or without the approval of the website owners. All this
          suggests that the actual figure may be much higher. On the commercial
          and semi-commercial side, Moreover, 10.am and others are collecting
          headline data from mostly commercial sites, categorizing it and then re-
          publishing it as rss, among other formats.

          5. But above all, rss is really simple, simon. I bet if you stripped the
          descriptions to the bone, you could fit all the variants on a single
          sheet of A4. Even a pretty poor programmer, such as myself, can extract
          the data from rss with a few string functions and generate it with a few
          more.

          This is it's greatest strength.

          -----------------------------------------------------------------
          So what to do?

          Well, if you manage a website, generate an rss file. Pick a format and
          just do it, by hand if you have to. My preference would be for 0.92 but
          if you prefer rdf, use 1.0. I don't care. And then make sure it's
          obvious on your site where it is.

          For my uses, I keep wanting to pick up rss from sites that don't
          currently produce it. So I hassle the webmaster. It doesn't always work,
          but sometimes it does. I suggest you do the same.

          --
          Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
          HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
          WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
          WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
          M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
          ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
        • Dave Winer
          Right on Julian. I m glad you had the courage to hit the Send key. My main question, beyond what you ve covered here, is how to evolve. Based on other uses of
          Message 4 of 18 , May 12, 2001
            Right on Julian. I'm glad you had the courage to hit the Send key.

            My main question, beyond what you've covered here, is how to evolve.

            Based on other uses of version numbering in software, one would reasonably
            conclude that 1.0 came after 0.92, but that's not true. And what of future
            versions? And what if RSS starts getting press? Or would it already *be*
            getting press if it were not for the confusion?

            Perhaps you have some ideas about this as well.

            Dave

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Julian Bond" <julian@...>
            To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 12:47 PM
            Subject: Re: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS


            > Sometime it helps to wait a day or two before hitting the send key. I
            > shouldn't even have to say this, but I'm not trying to be contentious
            > here, I'm trying to get some perspective.
            >
            > I came to this late, long after the major work was done on defining rss.
            > I've read enough and done enough research to understand some of the
            > sources of the discontent, but I really wonder what all the fuss is
            > about. From where I'm standing, rss looks like a major success. I don't
            > have figures to back it up, but I suspect it's *the* most successful XML
            > format in terms of implementations. Anyone care to guess how many Mb of
            > rss data are created every day?
            >
            > The competing standards are close enough that from the point of view of
            > a consumer of rss, or a programmer parsing the data, the differences are
            > a small pain but really not hard.
            >
            > So without further ado. And in order from the ridiculous to the
            > sensible.
            >
            > Q: What is RSS?
            >
            > 1: It's a set of three letters that seem to create tension between
            > people whenever they're mentioned.
            >
            > 2: It's a name not an acronym. At least no one acronym. At various
            > times, it has been converted into an acronym meaning Rich Site Summary,
            > Really Simple Syndication or something else entirely.
            >
            > 3: It's one of several XML formats that Userland use to transport
            > information around various parts of the Userland cloud. Despite (or
            > perhaps, because of) their involvement in the development of several of
            > the rss variants, their use of rss is subtly different to everyone
            > else's. But the differences are so small as to be effectively irrelevant
            > and the Userland sites are a major source of information in rss format.
            >
            > 4: It's a name for a loose collection of related but subtly different
            > and competing standards using XML. The standards are simple enough that
            > it's easy to create the files either with code or by hand. They
            > are also close enough that it's fairly trivial to write code that can
            > read the data from any of them and do something useful with it. The
            > standards are designed to allow a content generation website to
            > syndicate its headlines to other websites in a simple, and easy to
            > create form. Inevitably, inventive people have thought of many other
            > sources and uses.
            >
            > It's hard to tell how many websites publish an RSS file but estimates
            > suggest there are now >4000 publically accessible rss feeds on the
            > internet. Manila and most of the "Slash" codesets like Scoop,
            > PHP-Nuke and Drupal generate rss by default. In addition, there are
            > several efforts round the web to convert existing websites into an rss
            > feed with or without the approval of the website owners. All this
            > suggests that the actual figure may be much higher. On the commercial
            > and semi-commercial side, Moreover, 10.am and others are collecting
            > headline data from mostly commercial sites, categorizing it and then re-
            > publishing it as rss, among other formats.
            >
            > 5. But above all, rss is really simple, simon. I bet if you stripped the
            > descriptions to the bone, you could fit all the variants on a single
            > sheet of A4. Even a pretty poor programmer, such as myself, can extract
            > the data from rss with a few string functions and generate it with a few
            > more.
            >
            > This is it's greatest strength.
            >
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            > So what to do?
            >
            > Well, if you manage a website, generate an rss file. Pick a format and
            > just do it, by hand if you have to. My preference would be for 0.92 but
            > if you prefer rdf, use 1.0. I don't care. And then make sure it's
            > obvious on your site where it is.
            >
            > For my uses, I keep wanting to pick up rss from sites that don't
            > currently produce it. So I hassle the webmaster. It doesn't always work,
            > but sometimes it does. I suggest you do the same.
            >
            > --
            > Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
            > HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
            > WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
            > WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
            > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
            > ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
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