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Evangelizing RSS

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  • Julian Bond
    What s in it for the traditional media outlets to publish a public RSS feed? I m curious about NY Times vs Red Herring, Guardian -- Julian Bond
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 16, 2001
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      What's in it for the traditional media outlets to publish a public RSS
      feed?

      I'm curious about NY Times vs Red Herring, Guardian

      --
      Julian Bond mail:julian@...
      workurl:http://www.netmarketseurope.com
      weblog:http://roguemoon.manilasites.com
      ICQ:33679668 Tel:+44 (0)20 7420 4363
      tag: So many words, so little time
    • Aaron Swartz
      ... More flow to their site -- more hits, more fun. -- [ Aaron Swartz | me@aaronsw.com | http://www.aaronsw.com ]
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 16, 2001
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        Julian Bond <julian@...> wrote:

        > What's in it for the traditional media outlets to publish a public RSS
        > feed?

        More flow to their site -- more hits, more fun.

        --
        [ Aaron Swartz | me@... | http://www.aaronsw.com ]
      • Dan Lyke
        ... I m curious about this too. Discussion with a few people has indicated that much of the reasons for people liking RSS is that it lets us bypass the
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 16, 2001
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          Julian Bond writes:
          > What's in it for the traditional media outlets to publish a public
          > RSS feed?

          I'm curious about this too. Discussion with a few people has indicated
          that much of the reasons for people liking RSS is that it lets us
          bypass the horrible excuses for design that the major publications
          keep trying to foist off on us.

          Much of my pessimism about a semantic web comes from my believe that a
          good portion of the reason for design as it's generally practiced is
          introducing revenue producing advertising and obscuring lack of
          content.

          For that reason, I'd be surprised if the traditional media outlets
          really want to enable their users to bypass their front pages.

          Dan
        • travelers@csi.com
          ... RSS ... There is a good book called Information Rules . It talks about the value of information as a commodity. Check it out. The marginal cost is
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 16, 2001
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            --- In syndication@y..., Julian Bond <julian@n...> wrote:
            > What's in it for the traditional media outlets to publish a public
            RSS
            > feed?

            There is a good book called 'Information Rules'. It talks about the
            value of information as a commodity. Check it out.

            The marginal cost is distributing digital information approaches zero
            (everybody knows that). So a business model that fights it is
            fighting an uphill battle. When they use banner ads, they are
            fighting it.

            All architectures have the same three components in varying degress -
            data, logic and presentation. By using banner ads, you are putting a
            fence around 'presentation'. Shipping RSS (or any XML for that
            matter) sends out the data - your value escapes through the backdoor.
            If you bank on the information itself or the logic then you have a
            model that is strengthened the more the information is shared - and
            it costs you nothing to share. For example, Reuters categorizes
            information - that is valuable enough that people will prefer their
            version of information - even at the cost of some cash. Others like
            Google have highly relevant information sorted near the top - the
            information itself is valuable. If you like either information
            source, you have to go back to them because nobody does it better-
            even though the raw 'information' might be available. Hmm, perhaps
            the 'collection' (the group, ordering, filtering, etc.) is the
            something that has the 'proprietary' value.

            Other ways to add value via pure information is to make it more
            timely, more relevant, more entertaining, more unique, more
            whatever...

            MikeD
          • Jeff Barr
            When I tell people about syndication I like to do some comparisons to banner ads: Like a banner ad, a syndication file: * Is provided to draw traffic to the
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 16, 2001
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              When I tell people about syndication I like to do some comparisons
              to banner ads:

              Like a banner ad, a syndication file:

              * Is provided to draw traffic to the site.

              * Provides information about the site to raise interest (headlines for
              an RSS file, images or text for an ad).

              * Provides a way to navigate from the ad to the site (URL).

              * Is provided in one place and consumed in another.

              However:

              * Banner ads provide no interesting machine-readable information.
              Headlines, by way of comparison, can be indexed, sorted, categorized,
              aggregated and so forth. The intermediaries between the original
              RSS file and the ultimate presentation can add value in many ways.

              * The original site has to pay to get a banner ad placed. Since the
              syndicated information adds value to the syndicating site and to the
              site presenting the headlines, payment is generally not an issue. The
              syndicating site gains traffic, and the presenting site gains access
              to useful content.

              * Headlines, by their nature, are always fresh. Once you've seen an
              ad 5 or 10 times, you will subconsciously filter it out. But headlines
              change all the time.

              Jeff;


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian@...]
              Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 1:31 PM
              To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS


              What's in it for the traditional media outlets to publish a public RSS
              feed?

              I'm curious about NY Times vs Red Herring, Guardian

              --
              Julian Bond mail:julian@...
              workurl:http://www.netmarketseurope.com
              weblog:http://roguemoon.manilasites.com
              ICQ:33679668 Tel:+44 (0)20 7420 4363
              tag: So many words, so little time
            • Rael Dornfest
              Howdy, Quite simply, RSS is a win-win-win... * Web site producers acquire eyeballs via textual banner ads that folks are more than thrilled to host. *
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 17, 2001
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                Howdy,

                Quite simply, RSS is a win-win-win...

                * Web site producers acquire eyeballs via textual banner ads that
                folks are more than thrilled to host.

                * End-users get one-stop-reading, a centralized location into which
                teasers
                from their favorite web sites flow.

                * Sites hosting these RSS items, of course, acquire pseudo-content for
                free.

                This is as true for traditional media outlets as an individual with a
                Weblog. It's a t-shirt giveaway that costs practically nil.

                Rael

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Aaron Swartz <aswartz@...>
                To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 2:03 PM
                Subject: [syndication] Re: Evangelizing RSS


                > Julian Bond <julian@...> wrote:
                >
                > > What's in it for the traditional media outlets to publish a public RSS
                > > feed?
                >
                > More flow to their site -- more hits, more fun.
                >
                > --
                > [ Aaron Swartz | me@... | http://www.aaronsw.com ]
                >
                >
                >
              • Julian Bond
                In article , Rael Dornfest writes ... Agreed. So how do we get the news outlets, who already
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 18, 2001
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                  In article <012101c09918$260069c0$0401000a@...>, Rael Dornfest
                  <rael@...> writes
                  >Howdy,
                  >
                  >Quite simply, RSS is a win-win-win...
                  >
                  > * Web site producers acquire eyeballs via textual banner ads that
                  > folks are more than thrilled to host.

                  Agreed. So how do we get the news outlets, who already syndicate via
                  Moreover, to add the XML button to their sites. Can I suggest a campaign
                  to email all your favourite news sources suggesting they make public an
                  RSS feed?

                  Still puzzled about the NY Times problem.

                  --
                  Julian Bond mail:julian@...
                  workurl:http://www.netmarketseurope.com
                  weblog:http://roguemoon.manilasites.com
                  ICQ:33679668 Tel:+44 (0)20 7420 4363
                  tag: So many words, so little time
                • Rael Dornfest
                  Howdy, ... Just to be clear, these sites are not actually creating syndicated feeds themselves at all, but are rather screen-scraped by Moreover and those
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 18, 2001
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                    Howdy,

                    Julian Bond writes:

                    > <rael@...> writes
                    > >Howdy,
                    > >
                    > >Quite simply, RSS is a win-win-win...
                    > >
                    > > * Web site producers acquire eyeballs via textual banner ads that
                    > > folks are more than thrilled to host.
                    >
                    > Agreed. So how do we get the news outlets, who already syndicate via
                    > Moreover, to add the XML button to their sites. Can I suggest a campaign

                    Just to be clear, these sites are not actually creating syndicated feeds
                    themselves at all, but are rather screen-scraped by Moreover and those
                    scrapings turned into RSS. They don't have to do a thing. Getting them to
                    produce their own home-grown RSS files is something else entirely.

                    > to email all your favourite news sources suggesting they make public an
                    > RSS feed?

                    I tended to do this for quite some time (still do on occasion), but didn't
                    get much of a response. For efficacy, this should be a larger-scale
                    effort -- of what form, I'm not sure.

                    Rael
                  • Julian Bond
                    In article , Rael Dornfest writes ... Well you learn something every day! I d tried to get one of
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 18, 2001
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                      In article <007101c0998d$a43d67a0$0401000a@...>, Rael Dornfest
                      <rael@...> writes
                      >Just to be clear, these sites are not actually creating syndicated feeds
                      >themselves at all, but are rather screen-scraped by Moreover and those
                      >scrapings turned into RSS. They don't have to do a thing. Getting them to
                      >produce their own home-grown RSS files is something else entirely.

                      Well you learn something every day! I'd tried to get one of my RSS feeds
                      registered on Moreover[1] and just naturally assumed that was how it was
                      done. Ahead of the curve again, huh!

                      [1] Unfortunately they want "cash" and being a cheapskate at a
                      cheapskate org with no money, it'll have to wait. ;-(

                      --
                      Julian Bond mail:julian@...
                      workurl:http://www.netmarketseurope.com
                      weblog:http://roguemoon.manilasites.com
                      ICQ:33679668 Tel:+44 (0)20 7420 4363
                      tag: So many words, so little time
                    • Jeff Barr
                      Indeed, Moreover s model (as I understand it) it to make money by driving traffic to sites by syndicating the information to the site, and then charging the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 18, 2001
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                        Indeed, Moreover's model (as I understand it) it to make money by
                        driving traffic to sites by syndicating the information to the site,
                        and then charging the sites for the traffic that is sent to them via
                        a Moreover referral.

                        Technically, they do this by syndicating URLs to Moreover sites instead
                        of direct URLs to the content providers. The indirect URLs apparently
                        increment a counter (ka-ching), and then return a Location: value to
                        the browser to point it to the final destination.

                        Here is an article with even more info:

                        http://www.business2.co.uk/content/channels/infront/article.asp?ID=72

                        Jeff;

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian@...]
                        Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 10:35 AM
                        To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [syndication] Re: Evangelizing RSS


                        In article <007101c0998d$a43d67a0$0401000a@...>, Rael Dornfest
                        <rael@...> writes
                        >Just to be clear, these sites are not actually creating syndicated feeds
                        >themselves at all, but are rather screen-scraped by Moreover and those
                        >scrapings turned into RSS. They don't have to do a thing. Getting them to
                        >produce their own home-grown RSS files is something else entirely.

                        Well you learn something every day! I'd tried to get one of my RSS feeds
                        registered on Moreover[1] and just naturally assumed that was how it was
                        done. Ahead of the curve again, huh!

                        [1] Unfortunately they want "cash" and being a cheapskate at a
                        cheapskate org with no money, it'll have to wait. ;-(

                        --
                        Julian Bond mail:julian@...
                        workurl:http://www.netmarketseurope.com
                        weblog:http://roguemoon.manilasites.com
                        ICQ:33679668 Tel:+44 (0)20 7420 4363
                        tag: So many words, so little time
                      • Rael Dornfest
                        Howdy, ... campaign ... to ... parse ... This is the single biggest bit of feeback I receive regarding Meerkat s[1] use of Moreover[2] feeds... sometimes there
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 18, 2001
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                          Howdy,

                          Pino Calzo wrote:

                          > >> Agreed. So how do we get the news outlets, who already syndicate via
                          > >> Moreover, to add the XML button to their sites. Can I suggest a
                          campaign
                          >
                          > >Just to be clear, these sites are not actually creating syndicated feeds
                          > >themselves at all, but are rather screen-scraped by Moreover and those
                          > >scrapings turned into RSS. They don't have to do a thing. Getting them
                          to
                          > >produce their own home-grown RSS files is something else entirely.
                          >
                          > true for most of us. Also on NewsIsFree we have ca. 400 sites where we
                          parse
                          > the HTML and convert that into RSS and other XML formats. The
                          > difference we do is, that we try to include also the link descriptions
                          > where available (instead of a "link-only").

                          This is the single biggest bit of feeback I receive regarding Meerkat's[1]
                          use of Moreover[2] feeds... sometimes there just not enough tofu (read:
                          meat) in the title to inform the to click or not to click decision. Then
                          again, in strolling through the Moreover stories just a moment ago, I didn't
                          find this to be so; about the only one that left me flying blind was:

                          "Telecom firm lures venture capital"
                          http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?r15565605

                          > >> to email all your favourite news sources suggesting they make public an
                          > >> RSS feed?
                          > >I tended to do this for quite some time (still do on occasion), but
                          didn't
                          > >get much of a response. For efficacy, this should be a larger-scale
                          > >effort -- of what form, I'm not sure.
                          >
                          > I already thought about approaching the big CMS system with it.
                          > Most sites use on of the big CMS systems around (Vignette, Obtree C3
                          > etc.). I believe the "export to RSS" should be a function within these
                          > tools - most content sites don't even think about customizing their
                          > CMS-Systems so far..

                          There is such a vast amount of data trapped in CMS systems that its owners
                          wouldn't mind sharing a) if they thought it was worthwhile (eg. would grab a
                          few more _targeted_ audience), and b) if they knew how incredibly simple it
                          could be to create an XML view of their data.

                          Many of the Open Source solutions do indeed support RSS output right out of
                          the box. I worked with the folks at Slashcode[3] to beef up their RSS
                          support[4] by updating and making use of all the Perl XML::RSS module[5] has
                          to offer. Squishdot[6], a module for Zope[7] similarly has RSS support.
                          These are just a couple of examples of just how simply and quickly RSS can
                          be made us of by CMSs.

                          That said, of course I realise this assumes you know what you're doing
                          programmatically and can extend your CMS. This is often far beyond what
                          folks know how / have the time to do. So what to do? If you have the time,
                          know-how, and inclination, offer to help your favourite news sources. I've
                          taken a few folks' PHP, Perl, and Python in hand, providing the bits and
                          pieces necessary.

                          Rael

                          [1] http://meerkat.oreillynet.com
                          [2] http://www.moreover.com
                          [3] http://slashcode.com/
                          [4] http://slashcode.com/search.pl?query=rss
                          [5] http://search.cpan.org/search?dist=XML-RSS
                          [6] http://www.squishdot.org
                          [7] http://www.zope.org
                        • Julian Bond
                          Some campaigns that would be worth supporting. - For RSS everywhere, on every site, with a button - For Dublin Core metadata on every web page - Against
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 22, 2001
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                            Some campaigns that would be worth supporting.

                            - For RSS everywhere, on every site, with a button
                            - For Dublin Core metadata on every web page
                            - Against support for old browsers

                            And of course,
                            - Against HTML emails and MS Email Readers.

                            I bet there's others...

                            --
                            Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
                            HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                            WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
                            WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
                            M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
                            ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
                          • Eugene E. Pervago
                            ... That would be great. And preferably with some sort of XML tag around it so that software can pick up this button and use the RSS file. ... This sure beats
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 22, 2001
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                              --- In syndication@y..., Julian Bond <julian@n...> wrote:
                              > Some campaigns that would be worth supporting.
                              >
                              > - For RSS everywhere, on every site, with a button
                              That would be great. And preferably with some sort of XML tag
                              around it so that software can pick up this button and use the
                              RSS file.

                              > - For Dublin Core metadata on every web page
                              This sure beats using META tags and allows much more useful
                              searches (e.g. search for all pages written by Julian Bond on subject
                              of RSS or syndication).

                              > - Against support for old browsers
                              Hmmm, I prefer 'For the standard-compliant browsers'.

                              > - Against HTML emails and MS Email Readers.
                              HTML emails - yes, MS Email Readers => 'For better security in mail
                              programs'

                              Eugene Pervago
                              pervago@...
                              ICQ: 6254981
                              WebLog: http://eugene.manilasites.com/
                            • Julian Bond
                              I have just had this conversation with a content provider. ... Here s another one from a site that outsources it s web development. I think I hit the
                              Message 14 of 18 , May 9 1:46 AM
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                                I have just had this conversation with a content provider.

                                >On Tuesday, May 08, 2001 10:08 AM, Julian Bond wrote:
                                >| Do you produce an RSS file for syndication of headlines?
                                >| If you do, where is it?
                                >| If you don't, why not?
                                >| If you don't know what it is, look here http://www.blogspace.com/rss/
                                >Please excuse my ignorance. I checked the site, distinct concise reasons
                                >for why we should be offering RSS docs were not easily forthcoming and I
                                >ran out of time. Please send me a link to a dummies guide, I am interested
                                >but don't have time to trawl through RSS history looking for explanations
                                >of why RSS should prevail.

                                Here's another one from a site that outsources it's web development. I
                                think I hit the outsourcing company not the owners.
                                >No one has ever offered us money to produce one.

                                ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
                                explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
                                *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
                                the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
                                aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.

                                This particular guy is the webmaster for one of the titles at EMAP ("400
                                titles"). I'm still hopeful that I can convince him.

                                [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
                                right now... Perhaps a group effort?

                                --
                                Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
                                HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                                WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
                                WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
                                M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
                                ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
                              • Jeff Barr
                                Julian says, ... Definitely! I was thinking about evangelizing syndication last night while walking past the offices of Deseret News in Salt Lake City (I m
                                Message 15 of 18 , May 9 5:46 AM
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                                  Julian says,

                                  > ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
                                  > explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
                                  > *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
                                  > the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
                                  > aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.

                                  Definitely! I was thinking about evangelizing syndication last night while
                                  walking past the offices of "Deseret News" in Salt Lake City (I'm here for
                                  the day). We need a nice FAQ-like document, one that we control, which makes
                                  the business case first, and then proceeds to the details. This should be a
                                  one or two pager.

                                  The business case part should be pretty simple:

                                  Q: Why should I syndicate my site's headlines.

                                  A: Because an investment of just a few hours of development time will
                                  bring your site's headlines to the world in such a way that your
                                  site will get more traffic. There will be little, if any, continued
                                  investment.

                                  > [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
                                  > right now... Perhaps a group effort?

                                  We need a coordinator that can paste finished results into a master
                                  document (it should be a single document for easy printing). And we
                                  need an outline. The rest is easy. I'm in the "little busy" boat with
                                  Julian. I can contribute, but I cannot coordinate right now.

                                  Jeff;

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian@...]
                                  Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:47 AM
                                  To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS


                                  I have just had this conversation with a content provider.

                                  >On Tuesday, May 08, 2001 10:08 AM, Julian Bond wrote:
                                  >| Do you produce an RSS file for syndication of headlines?
                                  >| If you do, where is it?
                                  >| If you don't, why not?
                                  >| If you don't know what it is, look here http://www.blogspace.com/rss/
                                  >Please excuse my ignorance. I checked the site, distinct concise reasons
                                  >for why we should be offering RSS docs were not easily forthcoming and I
                                  >ran out of time. Please send me a link to a dummies guide, I am interested
                                  >but don't have time to trawl through RSS history looking for explanations
                                  >of why RSS should prevail.

                                  Here's another one from a site that outsources it's web development. I
                                  think I hit the outsourcing company not the owners.
                                  >No one has ever offered us money to produce one.

                                  ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
                                  explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
                                  *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
                                  the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
                                  aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.

                                  This particular guy is the webmaster for one of the titles at EMAP ("400
                                  titles"). I'm still hopeful that I can convince him.

                                  [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
                                  right now... Perhaps a group effort?

                                  --
                                  Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
                                  HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                                  WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
                                  WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
                                  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
                                  ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time



                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • Dave Winer
                                  Jeff, what is RSS? Dave ... From: Jeff Barr To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:46 AM Subject: RE:
                                  Message 16 of 18 , May 9 7:45 AM
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                                    Jeff, what is RSS?

                                    Dave


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Jeff Barr" <jeff@...>
                                    To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:46 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS


                                    > Julian says,
                                    >
                                    > > ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
                                    > > explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
                                    > > *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
                                    > > the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
                                    > > aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.
                                    >
                                    > Definitely! I was thinking about evangelizing syndication last night while
                                    > walking past the offices of "Deseret News" in Salt Lake City (I'm here for
                                    > the day). We need a nice FAQ-like document, one that we control, which
                                    makes
                                    > the business case first, and then proceeds to the details. This should be
                                    a
                                    > one or two pager.
                                    >
                                    > The business case part should be pretty simple:
                                    >
                                    > Q: Why should I syndicate my site's headlines.
                                    >
                                    > A: Because an investment of just a few hours of development time will
                                    > bring your site's headlines to the world in such a way that your
                                    > site will get more traffic. There will be little, if any, continued
                                    > investment.
                                    >
                                    > > [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
                                    > > right now... Perhaps a group effort?
                                    >
                                    > We need a coordinator that can paste finished results into a master
                                    > document (it should be a single document for easy printing). And we
                                    > need an outline. The rest is easy. I'm in the "little busy" boat with
                                    > Julian. I can contribute, but I cannot coordinate right now.
                                    >
                                    > Jeff;
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Julian Bond [mailto:julian@...]
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:47 AM
                                    > To: syndication@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I have just had this conversation with a content provider.
                                    >
                                    > >On Tuesday, May 08, 2001 10:08 AM, Julian Bond wrote:
                                    > >| Do you produce an RSS file for syndication of headlines?
                                    > >| If you do, where is it?
                                    > >| If you don't, why not?
                                    > >| If you don't know what it is, look here http://www.blogspace.com/rss/
                                    > >Please excuse my ignorance. I checked the site, distinct concise reasons
                                    > >for why we should be offering RSS docs were not easily forthcoming and I
                                    > >ran out of time. Please send me a link to a dummies guide, I am
                                    interested
                                    > >but don't have time to trawl through RSS history looking for explanations
                                    > >of why RSS should prevail.
                                    >
                                    > Here's another one from a site that outsources it's web development. I
                                    > think I hit the outsourcing company not the owners.
                                    > >No one has ever offered us money to produce one.
                                    >
                                    > ISTM that an RSS FAQ aimed at content providers, with a clear
                                    > explanation of why and how they should produce an RSS file would be a
                                    > *good thing*[1]. It ought to present a clear business case as well as
                                    > the developer detail. All the explanations I've seen so far are squarely
                                    > aimed at programmers and don't make any sort of business case.
                                    >
                                    > This particular guy is the webmaster for one of the titles at EMAP ("400
                                    > titles"). I'm still hopeful that I can convince him.
                                    >
                                    > [1]I know the response is "well write one then", but I'm a little busy
                                    > right now... Perhaps a group effort?
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
                                    > HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                                    > WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
                                    > WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
                                    > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
                                    > ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
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                                  • Julian Bond
                                    Sometime it helps to wait a day or two before hitting the send key. I shouldn t even have to say this, but I m not trying to be contentious here, I m trying to
                                    Message 17 of 18 , May 12 12:47 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Sometime it helps to wait a day or two before hitting the send key. I
                                      shouldn't even have to say this, but I'm not trying to be contentious
                                      here, I'm trying to get some perspective.

                                      I came to this late, long after the major work was done on defining rss.
                                      I've read enough and done enough research to understand some of the
                                      sources of the discontent, but I really wonder what all the fuss is
                                      about. From where I'm standing, rss looks like a major success. I don't
                                      have figures to back it up, but I suspect it's *the* most successful XML
                                      format in terms of implementations. Anyone care to guess how many Mb of
                                      rss data are created every day?

                                      The competing standards are close enough that from the point of view of
                                      a consumer of rss, or a programmer parsing the data, the differences are
                                      a small pain but really not hard.

                                      So without further ado. And in order from the ridiculous to the
                                      sensible.

                                      Q: What is RSS?

                                      1: It's a set of three letters that seem to create tension between
                                      people whenever they're mentioned.

                                      2: It's a name not an acronym. At least no one acronym. At various
                                      times, it has been converted into an acronym meaning Rich Site Summary,
                                      Really Simple Syndication or something else entirely.

                                      3: It's one of several XML formats that Userland use to transport
                                      information around various parts of the Userland cloud. Despite (or
                                      perhaps, because of) their involvement in the development of several of
                                      the rss variants, their use of rss is subtly different to everyone
                                      else's. But the differences are so small as to be effectively irrelevant
                                      and the Userland sites are a major source of information in rss format.

                                      4: It's a name for a loose collection of related but subtly different
                                      and competing standards using XML. The standards are simple enough that
                                      it's easy to create the files either with code or by hand. They
                                      are also close enough that it's fairly trivial to write code that can
                                      read the data from any of them and do something useful with it. The
                                      standards are designed to allow a content generation website to
                                      syndicate its headlines to other websites in a simple, and easy to
                                      create form. Inevitably, inventive people have thought of many other
                                      sources and uses.

                                      It's hard to tell how many websites publish an RSS file but estimates
                                      suggest there are now >4000 publically accessible rss feeds on the
                                      internet. Manila and most of the "Slash" codesets like Scoop,
                                      PHP-Nuke and Drupal generate rss by default. In addition, there are
                                      several efforts round the web to convert existing websites into an rss
                                      feed with or without the approval of the website owners. All this
                                      suggests that the actual figure may be much higher. On the commercial
                                      and semi-commercial side, Moreover, 10.am and others are collecting
                                      headline data from mostly commercial sites, categorizing it and then re-
                                      publishing it as rss, among other formats.

                                      5. But above all, rss is really simple, simon. I bet if you stripped the
                                      descriptions to the bone, you could fit all the variants on a single
                                      sheet of A4. Even a pretty poor programmer, such as myself, can extract
                                      the data from rss with a few string functions and generate it with a few
                                      more.

                                      This is it's greatest strength.

                                      -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                      So what to do?

                                      Well, if you manage a website, generate an rss file. Pick a format and
                                      just do it, by hand if you have to. My preference would be for 0.92 but
                                      if you prefer rdf, use 1.0. I don't care. And then make sure it's
                                      obvious on your site where it is.

                                      For my uses, I keep wanting to pick up rss from sites that don't
                                      currently produce it. So I hassle the webmaster. It doesn't always work,
                                      but sometimes it does. I suggest you do the same.

                                      --
                                      Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
                                      HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                                      WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
                                      WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
                                      M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
                                      ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
                                    • Dave Winer
                                      Right on Julian. I m glad you had the courage to hit the Send key. My main question, beyond what you ve covered here, is how to evolve. Based on other uses of
                                      Message 18 of 18 , May 12 5:35 PM
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                                        Right on Julian. I'm glad you had the courage to hit the Send key.

                                        My main question, beyond what you've covered here, is how to evolve.

                                        Based on other uses of version numbering in software, one would reasonably
                                        conclude that 1.0 came after 0.92, but that's not true. And what of future
                                        versions? And what if RSS starts getting press? Or would it already *be*
                                        getting press if it were not for the confusion?

                                        Perhaps you have some ideas about this as well.

                                        Dave

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Julian Bond" <julian@...>
                                        To: <syndication@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 12:47 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [syndication] Evangelizing RSS


                                        > Sometime it helps to wait a day or two before hitting the send key. I
                                        > shouldn't even have to say this, but I'm not trying to be contentious
                                        > here, I'm trying to get some perspective.
                                        >
                                        > I came to this late, long after the major work was done on defining rss.
                                        > I've read enough and done enough research to understand some of the
                                        > sources of the discontent, but I really wonder what all the fuss is
                                        > about. From where I'm standing, rss looks like a major success. I don't
                                        > have figures to back it up, but I suspect it's *the* most successful XML
                                        > format in terms of implementations. Anyone care to guess how many Mb of
                                        > rss data are created every day?
                                        >
                                        > The competing standards are close enough that from the point of view of
                                        > a consumer of rss, or a programmer parsing the data, the differences are
                                        > a small pain but really not hard.
                                        >
                                        > So without further ado. And in order from the ridiculous to the
                                        > sensible.
                                        >
                                        > Q: What is RSS?
                                        >
                                        > 1: It's a set of three letters that seem to create tension between
                                        > people whenever they're mentioned.
                                        >
                                        > 2: It's a name not an acronym. At least no one acronym. At various
                                        > times, it has been converted into an acronym meaning Rich Site Summary,
                                        > Really Simple Syndication or something else entirely.
                                        >
                                        > 3: It's one of several XML formats that Userland use to transport
                                        > information around various parts of the Userland cloud. Despite (or
                                        > perhaps, because of) their involvement in the development of several of
                                        > the rss variants, their use of rss is subtly different to everyone
                                        > else's. But the differences are so small as to be effectively irrelevant
                                        > and the Userland sites are a major source of information in rss format.
                                        >
                                        > 4: It's a name for a loose collection of related but subtly different
                                        > and competing standards using XML. The standards are simple enough that
                                        > it's easy to create the files either with code or by hand. They
                                        > are also close enough that it's fairly trivial to write code that can
                                        > read the data from any of them and do something useful with it. The
                                        > standards are designed to allow a content generation website to
                                        > syndicate its headlines to other websites in a simple, and easy to
                                        > create form. Inevitably, inventive people have thought of many other
                                        > sources and uses.
                                        >
                                        > It's hard to tell how many websites publish an RSS file but estimates
                                        > suggest there are now >4000 publically accessible rss feeds on the
                                        > internet. Manila and most of the "Slash" codesets like Scoop,
                                        > PHP-Nuke and Drupal generate rss by default. In addition, there are
                                        > several efforts round the web to convert existing websites into an rss
                                        > feed with or without the approval of the website owners. All this
                                        > suggests that the actual figure may be much higher. On the commercial
                                        > and semi-commercial side, Moreover, 10.am and others are collecting
                                        > headline data from mostly commercial sites, categorizing it and then re-
                                        > publishing it as rss, among other formats.
                                        >
                                        > 5. But above all, rss is really simple, simon. I bet if you stripped the
                                        > descriptions to the bone, you could fit all the variants on a single
                                        > sheet of A4. Even a pretty poor programmer, such as myself, can extract
                                        > the data from rss with a few string functions and generate it with a few
                                        > more.
                                        >
                                        > This is it's greatest strength.
                                        >
                                        > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                        > So what to do?
                                        >
                                        > Well, if you manage a website, generate an rss file. Pick a format and
                                        > just do it, by hand if you have to. My preference would be for 0.92 but
                                        > if you prefer rdf, use 1.0. I don't care. And then make sure it's
                                        > obvious on your site where it is.
                                        >
                                        > For my uses, I keep wanting to pick up rss from sites that don't
                                        > currently produce it. So I hassle the webmaster. It doesn't always work,
                                        > but sometimes it does. I suggest you do the same.
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
                                        > HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                                        > WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
                                        > WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
                                        > M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
                                        > ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
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