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RE: [syndic8] RSS Feeds and fear of getting left behind

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  • James Copenhaver
    Ian, Thanks for the tip on FeedBurner. Personally, I pulled out more than a few hairs and hurled a few expletives trying to get a straight answer out of them.
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 29, 2006
      Ian,



      Thanks for the tip on FeedBurner. Personally, I pulled out more than a few
      hairs and hurled a few expletives trying to get a straight answer out of
      them. I think I got everything set up correctly, but don't know for sure.



      The biggest problem I had was they blended RSS and blog instructions
      together and it was REALLY confusing to me. This is one of those areas in
      IT where you still are dealing with people that are clueless about customer
      service. In my case, all I want to do is push content out to whomever wants
      it. I don't want a blog or need one at this point.



      What would be helpful to people just starting out (just like me) is a simple
      list of commands to embed in your web pages and a simple list of commands to
      embed in your rss.xml page as well.



      For example:



      Do you need items like the ones below listed between your <head> </head>
      tags on each of your HTML pages?

      <link rel="service.feed" type="application/atom+xml" title="Whatever
      Subject" href="http://www.whateverurl.com"/>

      <link rel="service.post" type="application/atom+xml" title="Whatever
      Subject" href="http://www.whateverurl.com" />

      <link rel="EditURI" type="application/rsd+xml" title="RSD"
      href="http://www.whateverurl.com" />



      I understand these are helpful if you have a blog, but will they do any good
      for an RSS feed?

      If these are beneficial, are there other things you should stick in here as
      well?



      On the RSS.XML file, I have read a number of confusing articles and books
      that also tend to blend information about blogs and RSS.



      Do feeds really want permalink information?

      As long as you are generating the filenames and know how to keep your
      articles separate, is there a format they want?

      What is it and why? I've seen formats like: whateversubject.htm#12345 Is
      there a rhyme and/or reason to those formats?

      As long as you have tags like title, link, description, copyright, language,
      category, author, and pubDate. Do you really need anything else like
      permalink or GPS locations? If so, which ones? If you choose not to
      include the other tags, are there any penalties you could have for not
      including them?



      This is the kind of information, if available, would help everyone trying to
      set up an RSS feed and help standardize things for everyone. Many of us do
      not want to spend hours each week trying to figure a lot of this stuff out.
      We have other things to do and want to offer RSS to people as an information
      option.





      Thanks-



      James Copenhaver, PMP

      Key Results Management, Inc.

      Work: (404) 437-6485

      Cell: (404) 290-6246

      <http://www.k-r-m.com/> www.k-r-m.com

      <http://www.abc-concepts.com/> <http://www.abc-concepts.com/>
      www.abc-concepts.com



      Advanced Business Continuity Concepts

      Five Day Introductory Workshops

      _____

      From: Ian Cox [mailto:coxsoft_art@...]
      Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:08 PM
      To: syndic8@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [syndic8] RSS Feeds and fear of getting left behind



      Hi, James

      $200 sounds a lot. Try FeedBurner. It's free, fairly straightforward and
      it's worked well for me so far. Other sites - including Syndic8 - accept my
      FeedBurner feed that wouldn't accept a feed from my blogsite.

      Ian

      James Crotty <PicOhio@...> wrote:

      I too am having trouble trying to understand the complexities of RSS Feeds.
      It seems as if this next development of internet communication is talked
      about in a way that makes it appear much more complex than it really is.

      One resource that I've found to be somewhat helpful is Seth Godin's blog
      over at http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/ . On a recent post Seth
      recommended a program called Feedcraft for creating and managing feeds. I
      haven't tried it yet (it's $200).

      I, like most everyone else, who was pretty basic in knowledge and usage of
      the internet, am becoming worried that suddently I'm going to get "left
      behind" in this further development of the web.

      It also seems like the two major players in the game - Yahoo and Google -
      are both putting their development resources toward interactive, blog
      communities where communication between members and interested parties will
      take place primarily via "feeds."



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      If you're getting "too much mail" then send a message to:
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      To change your membership use THIS WEB PAGE:
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      (here you can set your mail to digest, no mail or LEAVE the list)

      To find more info about Syndicated XML newsfeeds visit
      http://www.syndic8.com/



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      business finance Business finance consultant Business finance magazine
      Business finance schools

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      ---------------------------------






      ---------------------------------
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      voicemail

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      If you're getting "too much mail" then send a message to:
      syndic8-nomail@yahoogroups.com
      (this will tell it to stop sending you mail)

      To change your membership use THIS WEB PAGE:
      http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/syndic8/join
      (here you can set your mail to digest, no mail or LEAVE the list)

      To find more info about Syndicated XML newsfeeds visit
      http://www.syndic8.com/




      _____

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      * Visit your group "syndic8 <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syndic8> "
      on the web.

      * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stuart Whitmore
      ... I also find it troubling that blogs and feeds tend to be treated as necessarily related (or even the same thing!) when really there is no requirement for a
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 1, 2006
        > The biggest problem I had was they blended RSS and blog instructions
        > together and it was REALLY confusing to me.

        I also find it troubling that blogs and feeds tend to be treated as
        necessarily related (or even the same thing!) when really there is no
        requirement for a blog to have a feed or for a feed to have a blog.
        This is why I think people tend to miss some useful applications for
        RSS, because they're thinking too much in the box -- the blog box,
        that is.

        On the other hand, as both blogs and feeds tend toward handling
        regularly-updated content, it certainly makes sense to tie them
        together when this fits the needs of the publisher.

        > What would be helpful to people just starting out (just like me) is a simple
        > list of commands to embed in your web pages and a simple list of commands to
        > embed in your rss.xml page as well.

        Simplicity would be good for everyone, but (unfortunately) that
        doesn't match reality, because the tool set and problem space within
        which the tools are applied is necessarily very complex. What might
        be "simple" for you might also be worthless for someone else, and vice
        versa.

        > Do you need items like the ones below listed between your <head> </head>
        > tags on each of your HTML pages?

        Technically, you don't need an HTML page at all for a feed, so the
        general answer to that would be "no."

        > Do feeds really want permalink information?

        Sort of... I think (not 100% sure) that the one thing all versions of
        RSS require is that each item (entry, headline, whatever you want to
        call it) point to something unique, and a "permalink" is one way of
        having a unique resource to which the item will be connected (i.e.,
        linked). Think of a newspaper -- you wouldn't want to follow a
        headline of "Life Found On Mars" only to end up at an article about
        how to avoid food poisoning while cooking meat at home. You want the
        headline to go to the right story, every time, so you need a unique
        way of identifying that story. How that is handled is presumably
        specific to the version of RSS. My RSS 1.0 feeds, for example, do not
        have permalink information by that name, but the link in each item
        meets that permanent & unique need.

        > What is it and why? I've seen formats like: whateversubject.htm#12345 Is
        > there a rhyme and/or reason to those formats?

        That's just an old-tech way of pointing to a specific part of an HTML
        page, so in that case I would expect whateversubject.htm to have more
        than one "story" (i.e., online resource) and for that particular link
        to go directly to the 12345 "story." This is also part of the
        uniqueness of the address to the resource. For example:
        http://www.johnny-pixel.com/photo_video_news.php#s344
        will take you to what is currently the most-recent story on that page,
        about the OpenRAW survey. A few days from now, that story will be
        further down the page, but that link will still take you to it, and it
        will continue taking you to it until the resource is no longer online.

        > This is the kind of information, if available, would help everyone trying to
        > set up an RSS feed and help standardize things for everyone.

        There needs to be a standard before things can be standardized. :-)

        > Many of us do
        > not want to spend hours each week trying to figure a lot of this stuff out.
        > We have other things to do and want to offer RSS to people as an information
        > option.

        This is why people will use blog and/or content management (CMS) tools
        that make RSS or Atom support either transparent or just a few clicks
        away. If you can figure out how to integrate your content and a tool
        of that nature, you won't have to do much or any thinking about
        providing syndication support, it will just be there. And while it
        might seem like a toss-up on spending time learning RSS or time
        learning a blog or CMS tool, there are additional benefits to such
        tools (such as improved management of content) that can make that time
        investment much wiser than just learning RSS and having the only
        benefit be RSS support.

        --
        Stuart Whitmore
        snakestu@...
        http://www.just-stuart.com/
      • Bill Kearney
        ... Well, there s also the issue of everything and the kitchen sink being jammed into a feed. There are certainly arguments both ways. ... There s also what I
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 1, 2006
          > I also find it troubling that blogs and feeds tend to be treated as
          > necessarily related (or even the same thing!) when really there is no
          > requirement for a blog to have a feed or for a feed to have a blog.
          > This is why I think people tend to miss some useful applications for
          > RSS, because they're thinking too much in the box -- the blog box,
          > that is.

          Well, there's also the issue of everything and the kitchen sink being jammed
          into a feed. There are certainly arguments both ways.

          > Simplicity would be good for everyone, but (unfortunately) that
          > doesn't match reality, because the tool set and problem space within
          > which the tools are applied is necessarily very complex. What might
          > be "simple" for you might also be worthless for someone else, and vice
          > versa.

          There's also what I call "the tyranny of bad tools". All too often a format
          gets hamstrung because the "popular" tools fail to make effective use (or
          even insist on DEFECTIVE use) of the data.

          > > Do feeds really want permalink information?

          In general if you're publishing something that has longevity then you'd do
          well to include a permanent link to it. As in, someone gets your feed,
          makes a bookmark of an item or mails it to someone else. If the link isn't
          reasonably permanent then it'd be useless over time.

          > My RSS 1.0 feeds, for example, do not
          > have permalink information by that name, but the link in each item
          > meets that permanent & unique need.

          Yes, quite correct. There's no need for a special hack like isPermaLink for
          RDF feeds. They're already smart enough to handle that.

          > > What is it and why? I've seen formats like: whateversubject.htm#12345
          Is
          > > there a rhyme and/or reason to those formats?

          Sure, and they're perfectly legitimate. They're a pointer to a position
          *within* the document referenced by the URL. Setup a <a name="12345"/> tag
          on a page called "xyz.html" and you can then jump right to the reference
          using "xyz.html#12345"

          > This is why people will use blog and/or content management (CMS) tools
          > that make RSS or Atom support either transparent or just a few clicks
          > away.

          Yep, it's almost always better to use a content publishing tool that handles
          it automagically.

          -Bill Kearney
          Syndic8.com
        • Ian Cox
          Hi, James I m glad the FeedBurner tip helped. To be fair to Syndic8, I ve had a couple of very useful tips from members of this group, It seems to have been
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 1, 2006
            Hi, James

            I'm glad the FeedBurner tip helped.

            To be fair to Syndic8, I've had a couple of very useful tips from members of this group, It seems to have been started by enthusiasts long before slick companies like FeedBurner moved in on the scene. The trouble with enthusiasts is that speak their own language. It's a bit like the old ZX80 days when enthusiasts were building their own computers and burning their own EPROMS. It was gobbledegook to the rest of us, but they knew what they were talking about.

            META tags are important, because they tell web crawlers what your website is about and what to do on it, like "Come back next month" or "Just look at my home page". Web crawlers are automated robot scouts that explore your site to add stuff to their search engines. If you tell them to get lost with your META tags, it's goodnight nurse!

            Don't panic! There's lots of help out their. Here's a link: http://freewebsubmission.com
            Freewebsubmission.com does two jobs. First it gives you a form to fill in for your META tags. Take your time, because it's important. It asks you questions about your website. Once you've filled in your form, its META tag generator transforms all your answers into META tags, which you can copy and paste into the HEAD of your HTML code. When you've done that, return to Freewebsubmission.com for its second job: submitting your site to 50 of the top search engines. (Be prepared for lots of e-mails; most of them want to sell you advertising space!)

            This isn't the only firm that helps in this way. There are websites that check your site for broken links, that check your code, that even check the popularity of your KEYWORDS! For masses of useful information, clearly presented, visit http://www.htmlclinic.com

            To Blog or not to Blog; that is the question. Soon after I started my blog as an adjunct to my website, I read a tip from someone who promotes arts websites, and he reckons that the best way to get your site known on the web is to link a Blog to your website. A Blog is something you can update quickly and easily with news items, whereas you don't want to keep rewriting your website. My Blog is art news, some of which points to my website, some of which doesn't. My website doesn't do newsworthy things all the time (I update my What's on in London page with new art exhibitions I can recommend). But it's surprising how often art pops up in the news. That gives me something for my Blog, and my hits have recently started to creep up, having been in the doldrums for yonks.

            The thing with news syndication is that it has to be news of some kind. If you haven't any news for your website, syndication is a waste of time. You're better off concentrating on your META tags and maybe paying for some advertising.

            Try my Blog to see how I've kept the art news flowing and linked it to my own website: http://coxsoft.blogspot.com/

            Best of luck

            Ian


            James Copenhaver <james.copenhaver@...> wrote:
            Ian,



            Thanks for the tip on FeedBurner. Personally, I pulled out more than a few
            hairs and hurled a few expletives trying to get a straight answer out of
            them. I think I got everything set up correctly, but don't know for sure.



            The biggest problem I had was they blended RSS and blog instructions
            together and it was REALLY confusing to me. This is one of those areas in
            IT where you still are dealing with people that are clueless about customer
            service. In my case, all I want to do is push content out to whomever wants
            it. I don't want a blog or need one at this point.



            What would be helpful to people just starting out (just like me) is a simple
            list of commands to embed in your web pages and a simple list of commands to
            embed in your rss.xml page as well.



            For example:



            Do you need items like the ones below listed between your <head> </head>
            tags on each of your HTML pages?

            <link rel="service.feed" type="application/atom+xml" title="Whatever
            Subject" href="http://www.whateverurl.com"/>

            <link rel="service.post" type="application/atom+xml" title="Whatever
            Subject" href="http://www.whateverurl.com" />

            <link rel="EditURI" type="application/rsd+xml" title="RSD"
            href="http://www.whateverurl.com" />



            I understand these are helpful if you have a blog, but will they do any good
            for an RSS feed?

            If these are beneficial, are there other things you should stick in here as
            well?



            On the RSS.XML file, I have read a number of confusing articles and books
            that also tend to blend information about blogs and RSS.



            Do feeds really want permalink information?

            As long as you are generating the filenames and know how to keep your
            articles separate, is there a format they want?

            What is it and why? I've seen formats like: whateversubject.htm#12345 Is
            there a rhyme and/or reason to those formats?

            As long as you have tags like title, link, description, copyright, language,
            category, author, and pubDate. Do you really need anything else like
            permalink or GPS locations? If so, which ones? If you choose not to
            include the other tags, are there any penalties you could have for not
            including them?



            This is the kind of information, if available, would help everyone trying to
            set up an RSS feed and help standardize things for everyone. Many of us do
            not want to spend hours each week trying to figure a lot of this stuff out.
            We have other things to do and want to offer RSS to people as an information
            option.





            Thanks-



            James Copenhaver, PMP

            Key Results Management, Inc.

            Work: (404) 437-6485

            Cell: (404) 290-6246

            <http://www.k-r-m.com/> www.k-r-m.com

            <http://www.abc-concepts.com/> <http://www.abc-concepts.com/>
            www.abc-concepts.com



            Advanced Business Continuity Concepts

            Five Day Introductory Workshops

            _____

            From: Ian Cox [mailto:coxsoft_art@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:08 PM
            To: syndic8@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [syndic8] RSS Feeds and fear of getting left behind



            Hi, James

            $200 sounds a lot. Try FeedBurner. It's free, fairly straightforward and
            it's worked well for me so far. Other sites - including Syndic8 - accept my
            FeedBurner feed that wouldn't accept a feed from my blogsite.

            Ian

            James Crotty <PicOhio@...> wrote:

            I too am having trouble trying to understand the complexities of RSS Feeds.
            It seems as if this next development of internet communication is talked
            about in a way that makes it appear much more complex than it really is.

            One resource that I've found to be somewhat helpful is Seth Godin's blog
            over at http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/ . On a recent post Seth
            recommended a program called Feedcraft for creating and managing feeds. I
            haven't tried it yet (it's $200).

            I, like most everyone else, who was pretty basic in knowledge and usage of
            the internet, am becoming worried that suddently I'm going to get "left
            behind" in this further development of the web.

            It also seems like the two major players in the game - Yahoo and Google -
            are both putting their development resources toward interactive, blog
            communities where communication between members and interested parties will
            take place primarily via "feeds."



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            If you're getting "too much mail" then send a message to:
            syndic8-nomail@yahoogroups.com
            (this will tell it to stop sending you mail)

            To change your membership use THIS WEB PAGE:
            http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/syndic8/join
            (here you can set your mail to digest, no mail or LEAVE the list)

            To find more info about Syndicated XML newsfeeds visit
            http://www.syndic8.com/



            SPONSORED LINKS
            Business finance course Business to business finance Small
            business finance Business finance consultant Business finance magazine
            Business finance schools

            ---------------------------------
            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


            Visit your group "syndic8" on the web.

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            syndic8-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            ---------------------------------






            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with
            voicemail

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            If you're getting "too much mail" then send a message to:
            syndic8-nomail@yahoogroups.com
            (this will tell it to stop sending you mail)

            To change your membership use THIS WEB PAGE:
            http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/syndic8/join
            (here you can set your mail to digest, no mail or LEAVE the list)

            To find more info about Syndicated XML newsfeeds visit
            http://www.syndic8.com/




            _____

            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



            * Visit your group "syndic8 <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/syndic8> "
            on the web.

            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            syndic8-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:syndic8-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



            _____



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            If you're getting "too much mail" then send a message to:
            syndic8-nomail@yahoogroups.com
            (this will tell it to stop sending you mail)

            To change your membership use THIS WEB PAGE:
            http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/syndic8/join
            (here you can set your mail to digest, no mail or LEAVE the list)

            To find more info about Syndicated XML newsfeeds visit http://www.syndic8.com/



            SPONSORED LINKS
            Business finance course Business to business finance Small business finance Business finance consultant Business finance magazine Business finance schools

            ---------------------------------
            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


            Visit your group "syndic8" on the web.

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            syndic8-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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