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Re: [¹è¹ÈÅ®ÐÔSVWomen] what do you think? ’†‘’jlC”ü‘’jl (ZT)

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  • HELEN XIAN
    Yilan, Can we use English as the main language on this email list? My comupter cannot read Chinese yet and I don t have time to fix it now. (We should not
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1, 2001
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      Yilan,

      Can we use English as the main language on this email list? My comupter
      cannot read Chinese yet and I don't have time to fix it now. (We should not
      assume everybody's computer is configured to read Chinese. I missed out a
      lot of Chinese messages sent in this list.

      I think since we are in America, we should try to use English as the
      official language (documentation and emails, etc.). It can only strengthen
      our survival skills here. A day or two ago, I forwarded an article to this
      list on how Americans see Chinese Americans (negative). Even though I think
      there is bias, there are also some truth in it. If we try our best to
      contribute to this country, we will earn their repsect. My pastor once told
      us (all Chinese) that we as Chinese Amercians are first Americans and then
      Chinese. We should never forget that we are Chinese, while we try our best
      to contribute to and merge with this society. This is just a thought.

      Thanks.

      Helen



      >From: yilan <aoyilan@...>
      >Reply-To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
      >To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [��������SVWomen] what do you think? �����j�l�C�����j�l (ZT)
      >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:32:14 -0700 (PDT)
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      >
      >���L��?:
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      >Asian Fetish - ZT (996 bytes) 02:43:17 4/30/01 (0)
      >?�^�l�i�y���������I?�n??��?�g�����j�l�h?���g�����j�l�h
      >- ZT (4334 bytes) 02:40:42 4/30/01 (0)
      >��?�g�N�����V�O�h - ZT (5412 bytes) 02:37:34
      >4/30/01 (0)
      >http://www.mm9999.com/forum/messages/8992.html
      >
      >
      >
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    • yilan
      Dear Helen, Thank you for you suggestion. :) Speaking as a member but not a fouder, personally I like to keep the option for people who like Chinese or post
      Message 2 of 8 , May 5, 2001
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        Dear Helen,

        Thank you for you suggestion. :)

        Speaking as a member but not a fouder, personally I
        like to keep the option for people who like Chinese or
        post Chinese in this mailling list.

        People in US may have different life experience, not
        everyone can express themselves well enough about
        their thoughts in other languages, such as English.
        However, most of them (pretty sure all of them) can
        never forget their own mother lauguage for sure. We
        do not want to exclude them or limit them to share
        just because they do not write good english or not
        able to express in english.

        That's one of the reasons I encourage people to speak
        up in anyway they want to, -- Chinese becomes the
        first choice.

        Maybe I'll setup a poll to ask for suggestion, thank
        for you suggestion again! :)

        Yilan




        Official lauguge could be both, since
        --- HELEN XIAN <helen_xian@...> wrote:
        > Yilan,
        >
        > Can we use English as the main language on this
        > email list? My comupter
        > cannot read Chinese yet and I don't have time to fix
        > it now. (We should not
        > assume everybody's computer is configured to read
        > Chinese. I missed out a
        > lot of Chinese messages sent in this list.
        >
        > I think since we are in America, we should try to
        > use English as the
        > official language (documentation and emails, etc.).
        > It can only strengthen
        > our survival skills here. A day or two ago, I
        > forwarded an article to this
        > list on how Americans see Chinese Americans
        > (negative). Even though I think
        > there is bias, there are also some truth in it. If
        > we try our best to
        > contribute to this country, we will earn their
        > repsect. My pastor once told
        > us (all Chinese) that we as Chinese Amercians are
        > first Americans and then
        > Chinese. We should never forget that we are Chinese,
        > while we try our best
        > to contribute to and merge with this society. This
        > is just a thought.
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Helen
        >
        >
        >
        > >From: yilan <aoyilan@...>
        > >Reply-To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
        > >To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
        > >Subject: [��������SVWomen] what do you think?
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        > >��?�m���I�����B
        > >
        > >-----------
        > >
        > >���L��?:
        > >
        > >Asian Fetish - ZT (996 bytes) 02:43:17 4/30/01 (0)
        >
        >?�^�l�i�y���������I?�n??��?�g�����j�l�h?���g�����j�l�h
        > >- ZT (4334 bytes) 02:40:42 4/30/01 (0)
        > >��?�g�N�����V�O�h - ZT (5412 bytes) 02:37:34
        > >4/30/01 (0)
        > >http://www.mm9999.com/forum/messages/8992.html
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >__________________________________________________
        > >Do You Yahoo!?
        > >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
        > prices
        > >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
        > >
        > >SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the women!
        > >SVWomen website: http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        _________________________________________________________________
        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
        > http://explorer.msn.com
        >
        >
        > SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the women!
        > SVWomen website: http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
        http://auctions.yahoo.com/
      • yilan
        Sure, feel free to do that. make a copy to SVWomen mailing list, please. Sorry to know that your company have that rule on employee -- but business is only
        Message 3 of 8 , May 9, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Sure, feel free to do that. make a copy to SVWomen
          mailing list, please.

          Sorry to know that your company have that "rule" on
          employee -- but business is only of business purpose.
          Reading personal messages or mails should be done
          beyond the 8 working hrs -- that's very depend on how
          good the employee relationship your company wants to
          build..

          have you tried NJSTARS.com?

          good luck,
          Yilan

          --- HELEN XIAN <helen_xian@...> wrote:
          > Hi Yilan,
          >
          > My company doesn't allow employees to download
          > Microsoft Explorer to our
          > computers. So my computer cannot read Chinese. I
          > have tried another
          > Chinese software, somehow it didn't work, either.
          >
          > A few weeks ago, I had a conversation with a group
          > of Chinese engineers on
          > how to improve our English and how to succeed in
          > American companies. Do you
          > mind if I want to post my comments on your email
          > below to the public list,
          > such as SV Women, Speak-Up Club and SCEA, etc. I
          > think this is a very
          > interesting topic that most Chinese would care.
          > It's just a general
          > discussion, nothing personal. Please let me know.
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          > Helen
          >
          >
          > >From: yilan <aoyilan@...>
          > >Reply-To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: Re: [��������SVWomen] what do you think?
          > �����j�l�C�����j�l (ZT)
          > >Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
          > >
          > >Dear Helen,
          > >
          > >Thank you for you suggestion. :)
          > >
          > >Speaking as a member but not a fouder, personally I
          > >like to keep the option for people who like Chinese
          > or
          > >post Chinese in this mailling list.
          > >
          > >People in US may have different life experience,
          > not
          > >everyone can express themselves well enough about
          > >their thoughts in other languages, such as English.
          > >However, most of them (pretty sure all of them) can
          > >never forget their own mother lauguage for sure.
          > We
          > >do not want to exclude them or limit them to share
          > >just because they do not write good english or not
          > >able to express in english.
          > >
          > >That's one of the reasons I encourage people to
          > speak
          > >up in anyway they want to, -- Chinese becomes the
          > >first choice.
          > >
          > >Maybe I'll setup a poll to ask for suggestion,
          > thank
          > >for you suggestion again! :)
          > >
          > >Yilan
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >Official lauguge could be both, since
          > >--- HELEN XIAN <helen_xian@...> wrote:
          > > > Yilan,
          > > >
          > > > Can we use English as the main language on this
          > > > email list? My comupter
          > > > cannot read Chinese yet and I don't have time to
          > fix
          > > > it now. (We should not
          > > > assume everybody's computer is configured to
          > read
          > > > Chinese. I missed out a
          > > > lot of Chinese messages sent in this list.
          > > >
          > > > I think since we are in America, we should try
          > to
          > > > use English as the
          > > > official language (documentation and emails,
          > etc.).
          > > > It can only strengthen
          > > > our survival skills here. A day or two ago, I
          > > > forwarded an article to this
          > > > list on how Americans see Chinese Americans
          > > > (negative). Even though I think
          > > > there is bias, there are also some truth in it.
          > If
          > > > we try our best to
          > > > contribute to this country, we will earn their
          > > > repsect. My pastor once told
          > > > us (all Chinese) that we as Chinese Amercians
          > are
          > > > first Americans and then
          > > > Chinese. We should never forget that we are
          > Chinese,
          > > > while we try our best
          > > > to contribute to and merge with this society.
          > This
          > > > is just a thought.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks.
          > > >
          > > > Helen
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >From: yilan <aoyilan@...>
          > > > >Reply-To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >Subject: [��������SVWomen] what do you think?
          > > > �����j�l�C�����j�l (ZT)
          > > > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:32:14 -0700 (PDT)
          > > > >
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          > > > >
          > > > >-----------
          > > > >
          > > > >���L��?:
          > > > >
          > > > >Asian Fetish - ZT (996 bytes) 02:43:17 4/30/01
          > (0)
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >?�^�l�i�y���������I?�n??��?�g�����j�l�h?���g�����j�l�h
          > > > >- ZT (4334 bytes) 02:40:42 4/30/01 (0)
          > > > >��?�g�N�����V�O�h - ZT (5412 bytes) 02:37:34
          > > > >4/30/01 (0)
          > > > >http://www.mm9999.com/forum/messages/8992.html
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >__________________________________________________
          > > > >Do You Yahoo!?
          > > > >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at
          > great
          > > > prices
          > > > >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
          > > > >
          > > > >SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the
          > women!
          > > > >SVWomen website:
          > http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          >
          >_________________________________________________________________
          > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
          > > > http://explorer.msn.com
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the
          > women!
          > > > SVWomen website:
          > http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >__________________________________________________
          > >Do You Yahoo!?
          > >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
          > prices
          > >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
          > >
          > >SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the women!
          > >SVWomen website: http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          _________________________________________________________________
          > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
          > http://explorer.msn.com
          >
          >
          > SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the women!
          > SVWomen website: http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >


          =====
          http://profiles.yahoo.com/aoyilan

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
          http://auctions.yahoo.com/
        • HELEN XIAN
          Hi Yilan, My company doesn t allow employees to download Microsoft Explorer to our computers. So my computer cannot read Chinese. I have tried another
          Message 4 of 8 , May 9, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Yilan,

            My company doesn't allow employees to download Microsoft Explorer to our
            computers. So my computer cannot read Chinese. I have tried another
            Chinese software, somehow it didn't work, either.

            A few weeks ago, I had a conversation with a group of Chinese engineers on
            how to improve our English and how to succeed in American companies. Do you
            mind if I want to post my comments on your email below to the public list,
            such as SV Women, Speak-Up Club and SCEA, etc. I think this is a very
            interesting topic that most Chinese would care. It's just a general
            discussion, nothing personal. Please let me know.

            Thanks.

            Helen


            >From: yilan <aoyilan@...>
            >Reply-To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
            >To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [��������SVWomen] what do you think? �����j�l�C�����j�l (ZT)
            >Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
            >
            >Dear Helen,
            >
            >Thank you for you suggestion. :)
            >
            >Speaking as a member but not a fouder, personally I
            >like to keep the option for people who like Chinese or
            >post Chinese in this mailling list.
            >
            >People in US may have different life experience, not
            >everyone can express themselves well enough about
            >their thoughts in other languages, such as English.
            >However, most of them (pretty sure all of them) can
            >never forget their own mother lauguage for sure. We
            >do not want to exclude them or limit them to share
            >just because they do not write good english or not
            >able to express in english.
            >
            >That's one of the reasons I encourage people to speak
            >up in anyway they want to, -- Chinese becomes the
            >first choice.
            >
            >Maybe I'll setup a poll to ask for suggestion, thank
            >for you suggestion again! :)
            >
            >Yilan
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Official lauguge could be both, since
            >--- HELEN XIAN <helen_xian@...> wrote:
            > > Yilan,
            > >
            > > Can we use English as the main language on this
            > > email list? My comupter
            > > cannot read Chinese yet and I don't have time to fix
            > > it now. (We should not
            > > assume everybody's computer is configured to read
            > > Chinese. I missed out a
            > > lot of Chinese messages sent in this list.
            > >
            > > I think since we are in America, we should try to
            > > use English as the
            > > official language (documentation and emails, etc.).
            > > It can only strengthen
            > > our survival skills here. A day or two ago, I
            > > forwarded an article to this
            > > list on how Americans see Chinese Americans
            > > (negative). Even though I think
            > > there is bias, there are also some truth in it. If
            > > we try our best to
            > > contribute to this country, we will earn their
            > > repsect. My pastor once told
            > > us (all Chinese) that we as Chinese Amercians are
            > > first Americans and then
            > > Chinese. We should never forget that we are Chinese,
            > > while we try our best
            > > to contribute to and merge with this society. This
            > > is just a thought.
            > >
            > > Thanks.
            > >
            > > Helen
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: yilan <aoyilan@...>
            > > >Reply-To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
            > > >To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
            > > >Subject: [��������SVWomen] what do you think?
            > > �����j�l�C�����j�l (ZT)
            > > >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:32:14 -0700 (PDT)
            > > >
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            > > >-----------
            > > >
            > > >���L��?:
            > > >
            > > >Asian Fetish - ZT (996 bytes) 02:43:17 4/30/01 (0)
            > >
            > >?�^�l�i�y���������I?�n??��?�g�����j�l�h?���g�����j�l�h
            > > >- ZT (4334 bytes) 02:40:42 4/30/01 (0)
            > > >��?�g�N�����V�O�h - ZT (5412 bytes) 02:37:34
            > > >4/30/01 (0)
            > > >http://www.mm9999.com/forum/messages/8992.html
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >__________________________________________________
            > > >Do You Yahoo!?
            > > >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
            > > prices
            > > >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
            > > >
            > > >SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the women!
            > > >SVWomen website: http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >_________________________________________________________________
            > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
            > > http://explorer.msn.com
            > >
            > >
            > > SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the women!
            > > SVWomen website: http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >__________________________________________________
            >Do You Yahoo!?
            >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
            >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
            >
            >SVWomen, a group by the women, and for the women!
            >SVWomen website: http://www.geocities.com/svwomen
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
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          • HELEN XIAN
            Hi Yilan, Sorry, I didn t get a chance to respond your email earlier becasue I have been quite busy lately. I usually check personal emails during lunchtime or
            Message 5 of 8 , May 16, 2001
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              Hi Yilan,

              Sorry, I didn't get a chance to respond your email earlier becasue I have
              been quite busy lately. I usually check personal emails during lunchtime or
              breaks at work because I hardly have time to do that at home during the
              week.

              I think I may not have explained my points clearly in my previous emails.
              Let me try again. Please see my comments below.

              >From: yilan To: HELEN XIAN Subject: Re: [��������SVWomen] what do you
              >think? '��''j�l�C"��''j�l (ZT) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 00:12:59 -0700 (PDT)
              >
              > > post my previous email to > the public list. It was an accident. I
              >apologize. Dear Helen, that's OK.. I also made the same mistake before..
              >Surprised when you find out it went to public, right?
              >
              > > "either Chinese or English" (I will expect to see > more Chinese
              >messages than > English ones as I have seen more Chinese postings in > the
              >past). Surprise? That'll not necessary. I see no change and that's very
              >depend on what the topic is. Chinese is a wouderful mother language to all
              >of us.
              >

              By no means I undervalue our mother language. Chinese is indeed a beautiful
              language. I usually feel very blessed that I know how to use and enjoy this
              language, especially when I read Chinese literature, such as famous classic
              novels and poems from Tang and Song dynasties. If you translate them into
              English, it would lose the beauty of the originals. So it's reasonable to
              forward the original Chinese piece in the email.
              When I was a student, I used to teach Chinese on Saturday to American born
              Chinese children. I enjoyed doing it because I hoped I could help to pass on
              our mother language to our next generation in a foreign country. Remember,
              what ABC children feel difficult to learn is Chinese, not English, because
              they were born in an English speaking country. However, what we, as adults
              who came to this country, need to learn is English, not Chinese. English is
              one of the skills that we need to make great effort to learn if we want to
              succeed in this country.

              When I wanted to ask my instructor a question in the class, but dared not to
              because I was afraid of being laughed at my English,I wished I could speak
              English better.
              When I was asked to present my graduate paper in front of a big group of
              students and professors, I wished my English could be better.
              When I needed to write a business report or a design document, I wished I
              could write English better.
              When I was at a business meeting and I knew the subject very well, I wished
              I could speak up and tell them my ideas in fluent English.
              When I misunderstand or I am being misunderstood, I wish my English could be
              better.
              When �

              Just imagine if you speak English with a very strong accent, you couldn't
              express yourself well, and others couldn't understand you. How would you
              feel and what would others think? If your business report or design document
              is full of typos and grammatical mistakes, what would your boss think? What
              would your audience think? It doesn't matter how intelligent you are and how
              much you know if others couldn't understand you.

              So how could we improve our English? How? Practice, practice, and practice!
              Use any opportunities to practice our English! I alwasy have a dictionary at
              home, at work and in my purse. I made friends with non-Chinese speaking
              people to force myself to speak English. I listen to English Radio stations,
              read in English, and write emails in English, even to my Chinese speaking
              friends. I ask my American friends and co-workers if I need help with my
              English. I welcome them to point out my mistakes. Sometimes I still don't
              know how to express myself, but I have made the decision to learn, to
              improve my English. I am getting better and better everyday.


              > > Yes and no. Yes, I feel surprised that most Chinese > Americans still
              >prefer > to use Chinese as their main language rather than > English in
              >social > settings, even though I assume we all had been well > educated in
              >American This is very depend on personality and their life path
              >environment. Well educated in USA doesn't necessary mean well
              >americanlized, nor mean English becomes easier to express feeling.
              >

              Yes and no.
              Yes. You are right. It depends on personality. Some people would like to
              stay inside their comfort zone and are afraid of making mistakes. Some
              people can take challenges and aim higher. Those who can not break throguh
              the comfort zone and take the callenge to learn English can only stay within
              the Chinese community

              No. Trying to learn and use English as the official language in this country
              doesn't mean being Americanized. We can still keep our mother language and
              our Chinese culture. How could we forget it? We speak and write in Chinese
              with our family and friends, we watch Chinese TV (at least news), we eat
              Chinese food. How? How can we forget Chinese language and Chinese culture?
              We simply can't! It's inside us deeply. Using English and trying to
              understand American culture don't mean giving up Chinese language/culture.
              They should not be mutually exclusive. Our goal should be to know both well.

              What's the definition of "Americanized" anyway?

              Trying to master the English language,
              Taking responsibilities as U.S citizens to make America a better place to
              live with peace for us all,
              Willing to get along with other people who have different cultural
              background and speak different langauges by communicating with them in the
              common language which is English,

              or

              trying to copy American life style, such as, the way they talk and the way
              they look,
              spending more of your income on what you want, but not what you really need
              just to gain the immediate gratification (I have seen Chinese bought a new
              sports car with a big loan before they even started their first job in the
              U.S right after they got their master degree),
              living together or having sex without marriage,
              taking family value/commitment, and relationship casually,
              being in a running mode all the time to show how busy you are therefore how
              worthy you are;
              hardly spending some quiet time alone to read or self-reflect,
              being selfish or self-centered, etc.

              I can go on and on ...


              The interesting thing is that so often in the Chinese community, I don't
              hear people accuse those in the second category of "Americanized", but the
              first one.


              >
              > > universities. And no, I am not surprised because it > fits the nature of
              >most > Chinese who come from the Chinese Culture. It seems > hard for most
              >Chinese > to break through our comfort zone, especially if we > are so
              >afraid of making I guess it is more culture related. It is a root in deep
              >of most of Chinese. We can not expect them to change or complete adapt to
              >American way if they do not feel comfortable with. US is a melt pot, let's
              >be open to take all.
              >
              >
              > > mistakes. But if we don't try, how can we learn and > grow? I think this
              > > could be one of the purposes of the SV Women group > ;-)! Grow in
              >spirit. Lauguage is a tool to drive to grow, well, doesn't any lauguage. We
              >do not need to become all Americanlized in order to live in US.
              >
              >Another thing I may not be able to aggree with is the saying: we have to be
              >an American before a Chinese or something like this. not sure from what
              >aspect.. culture or guesture? hair style or fashing style? If you recieve
              >higher education in China, Chinese culture value should be the one in your
              >mind. Whatever :)
              ? >


              You are right. America is a melting pot. People are from all over the world
              with different languages and cultures. Most people still keep their own
              cultures and social customs well here. English is the only common language
              for us all to communicate with each other. Since we chose to live here, we
              need to learn English as a tool so that we can communicate with non-Chinese
              speaking people in this country. Just imagine that you live and work in
              Beijing. In your office, many of your co-workers are from other cities. They
              insist that they should speak their own dialects. When you walk in to an
              office that has most people from Guangzhou, for example, and they are
              speaking Cantonese, a language you don't understand. What would you think?
              Will you feel like a foreigner there? Would you think that they should speak
              Mandarin, the official language in China? That's why in China we are all
              required to speak Mandarin in schools and offices.

              One of my American friends is a manager in a Chinese own company. She told
              me that the Chinese poeple who work in her company wanted a cubicle next to
              another Chinese because it's more convenient for them to speak Chinese at
              work. She could hear Chinese all the time in the office. She said that
              caused Americans frustration, resentment or even hatred towards Chinese,
              simply because they feel Chinese people don't respect Americans in their own
              country.

              Another example: my roommate once told me a story. She got lost in SF. She
              asked two young Chinese how to get to Chinatown from downtown by bus. To her
              surprise, both of them couldn't speak English. She felt like she was in a
              foreign country. She was very frustrated. She felt that if people decide to
              live here, they should at least learn English. However, in her law firm,
              there was a young lady who just came from China a year ago and didn't speak
              English well. She decided to quit the job in a Chinese travel agent and
              joined this law firm as a secretary assistant because she wanted to put
              herself in an environment that she had to speak English. She dared to take
              this challenge. My roommate told me how much she respected this young lady,
              even though her English was very poor at that time.
              Yes. Having the right attitude is the first step. Working hard with wisdom
              towards your goal is the key to success.
              Those who don't speak English well can only stay within the Chinese
              community, just like those who stay in Chinatown for their whole life
              without speaking any English.

              English can help us to do well at school, at work, and help us to understand
              and get along with Americans and other ethnic groups. This is what I meant
              when I said we are first Americans (as U.S citizens or residents)in terms of
              responsibilities, and second as Chinese in terms of our culture root. We
              should care and serve the community as a whole, not just the Chinese
              community. There are so many old/poor people who need our help.

              Another thing I want to mention is that "SV Women" means every woman who
              lives in SV, including American women and women from any other ethnic
              groups. So should we call this group "SV Chinese Women"? Ok. If this is just
              for Chinese women, does it include American born Chinese women, Chinese
              women from HK, Taiwan or other countries? What about if those Chinese women
              from other countries don't know Chinese? Can you say they are not Chinese
              women? Ok. If you say this is for Chinese speaking women only, then what
              Chinese characters you use in the email, simplified or classified? If you
              use simplified, most Chinese women from Hong Kong and Taiwan may not know
              how to read simplified Chinese characters. So how many groups of women the
              simplified Chinese characters will exclude? If we use English, we can
              include any women who live in SV.

              I know it's hard to change people once they make up their mind. I just hope
              that my points in this email can at least make you think about this language
              "issue". I think if we really love China and are proud of being Chinese, we
              should create a good image for Chinese as an ethnic group in this country.

              Thanks.

              Helen
              _________________________________________________________________
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            • °ÂÒÀÀ¶
              Dear Helen, Thanks for your respond. Very informative. I know you do not mean to post to the mailing list but it happened, I would like to hear from other
              Message 6 of 8 , May 16, 2001
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                Dear Helen,

                Thanks for your respond. Very informative. I know you do not mean
                to post to the mailing list but it happened, I would like to hear
                from other group members for what they think about this too. :)

                Again, I do not speak for the group, in this email I only represent
                myself, a member of the group. Here are the points that I support
                using both English and Chinese:

                1. The primary function/ purpose of this mailing list is
                communication, sharing and posting information thus empower we woman
                lives(and all other Chinese) in SV, It can be a tool to learn
                English, but not a "primary" reason. -- so various languages can be
                accepted as long as most of the members vote yes to it.

                2. Of course, if enough resource(manpower, $$, time) is available,
                then all others Chinese Women even American Women can be included --
                we then can build up something translate the in Traditional Chinese,
                English, even French, Italian .. -- All of these are possible!

                See, there are lot of things we can do for the group, to be
                beneficial to all the group members . If everyone contributes some
                of her time to this group, I believe we'll be a great group -- we'll
                take step by step :)

                Helen, I am happy to hear from you this way, you make me realize, we
                should not only focus on the small Chinese speaking women group but
                for a bigger group with larger goal. The group definitely need people
                like you to involve...

                I'll talk to you more in private mail. Good day,

                Yilan
              • tlin@fastgain.com
                ... jlC u jl (ZT) ... Here are my two cents: First, let me say I agree with BOTH Yilan and Helen. Their differences, to the extent they exist, are
                Message 7 of 8 , May 16, 2001
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                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: ?AOAA? [mailto:aoyilan@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 11:08 AM
                  > To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [1e1EARDOSVWomen] Re: [1e1EARDOSVWomen] what do you think?
                  > '? ''jlC"u ''jl (ZT)
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Helen,
                  >
                  > Thanks for your respond. Very informative. I know you do not mean
                  > to post to the mailing list but it happened, I would like to hear
                  > from other group members for what they think about this too. :)


                  Here are my two cents:

                  First, let me say I agree with BOTH Yilan and Helen. Their differences,
                  to the extent they exist, are minor. I'm one of those to whom any and all
                  ideas, no matter how unconventional, can be safely communicated to without
                  reservation. I have no difficulty intellectually examining any concept or
                  idea with detachment and without prejudice. Nor do I have any difficulty
                  in keeping confidence on any private or non-public matter.

                  I believe that one primary purpose of a language is communication. So, if
                  one is understood well, idea-wise, one has achieved >90% of a language's
                  objective, even if there are many errors of pronunciation, grammar, and/
                  or diction.

                  Another equally important purpose of a language is to obtain knowledge. If
                  one needs to know German in the 1940s to study what's important in Science,
                  then one should do that. Today, the most widely used language in Science
                  and commerce is English. So English is an important language to know well,
                  though not necessarily master.

                  For me, language proficiency means ideas are sufficiently communicated and
                  not significantly misunderstood, while using that language.

                  Anything one knows far beyond the needs of utility maybe a potential waste
                  of time and effort that could be better spent elsewhere. Of course, what's
                  useful or beneficial depends on one's needs, values and objectives. There
                  are no absolutes. If having fun and games are important, then they are.
                  If reading fiction is important to one, then it is.

                  With knowledge explosion, the days of "King's English" are numbered, as
                  people don't even have enough time to keep up with all the professional
                  knowledge in their fields, and thus increasingly relegating any language
                  "apple polishing" to leisure or pastime.

                  Accent is nothing to feel ashamed of, since it marks the English speaker
                  as a non-native speaker, and intellectually and educationally quite likely
                  above the average guy who knows only English, and often not even that well.

                  As for some English-speaking Americans feeling offended that others do not
                  speak a language they can understand, and thereby unable to satisfy their
                  curiosity about strangers' conversation, tough! That's the price one pays
                  for ignorance. There are some people who are psychologically insecure and
                  paranoid about losing control over others. Hopefully one does not have to
                  deal with such type of person in family or social life, and on the job. I
                  know there are nosy bosses or employers who must monitor all private talk.
                  But, if one is indispensable to his/her employer, well, the power balance
                  shifts greatly. Being situated in a servile position to please others is
                  never a pleasant or healthy thing and is un-natural, the result of prior
                  mental, psychological and/or cultural conditioning. So there is never a
                  need or reason for self-confident people to feel apologetic for speaking
                  or using their native tongue, if they so wish, in public or private.

                  Ultimately, being able to speak a foreign language well can never be as
                  important, useful and powerful as possessing vital knowledge and ideas
                  of great utility. Should there be a trade-off, the latter should never
                  be sacrificed for the former.

                  Finally, it is OK to be misunderstood and to be different or not melding
                  (or "melting") in. America is supposed to be a free country, so test it.
                  One should be able to conduct pretty much as one damn pleases. In time,
                  people will get to know your "style", and a lot of "misunderstanding"
                  then fades away. Sometimes, it is far more efficient to let time do its
                  job of "explanation" for you.

                  As for opening up SVWomen to a cosmopolitan definition of membership,
                  I don't think that's necessary. It is not possible to include everyone
                  or please everyone, nor should one strive to do so. We'll no longer be
                  the captain of our own ship, if, in trying to please too many people, we
                  unduly compromise our own group's interests and original objectives.


                  TK


                  > Again, I do not speak for the group, in this email I only represent
                  > myself, a member of the group. Here are the points that I support
                  > using both English and Chinese:
                  >
                  > 1. The primary function/ purpose of this mailing list is
                  > communication, sharing and posting information thus empower we woman
                  > lives(and all other Chinese) in SV, It can be a tool to learn
                  > English, but not a "primary" reason. -- so various languages can be
                  > accepted as long as most of the members vote yes to it.
                  >
                  > 2. Of course, if enough resource(manpower, $$, time) is available,
                  > then all others Chinese Women even American Women can be included --
                  > we then can build up something translate the in Traditional Chinese,
                  > English, even French, Italian .. -- All of these are possible!
                  >
                  > See, there are lot of things we can do for the group, to be
                  > beneficial to all the group members . If everyone contributes some
                  > of her time to this group, I believe we'll be a great group -- we'll
                  > take step by step :)
                  >
                  > Helen, I am happy to hear from you this way, you make me realize, we
                  > should not only focus on the small Chinese speaking women group but
                  > for a bigger group with larger goal. The group definitely need people
                  > like you to involve...
                  >
                  > I'll talk to you more in private mail. Good day,
                  >
                  > Yilan
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Kristal Deng
                  Why everyone has to write a book to make a point? :o) I am fine with either language. Kristal ... __________________________________________________ Do You
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 16, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Why everyone has to write a book to make a point? :o)


                    I am fine with either language.

                    Kristal

                    --- tlin@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: ?AOAA? [mailto:aoyilan@...]
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 11:08 AM
                    > > To: svwomen@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [1e1EARDOSVWomen] Re: [1e1EARDOSVWomen]
                    > what do you think?
                    > > '?''jlC"u''jl (ZT)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dear Helen,
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for your respond. Very informative. I
                    > know you do not mean
                    > > to post to the mailing list but it happened, I
                    > would like to hear
                    > > from other group members for what they think about
                    > this too. :)
                    >
                    >
                    > Here are my two cents:
                    >
                    > First, let me say I agree with BOTH Yilan and Helen.
                    > Their differences,
                    > to the extent they exist, are minor. I'm one of
                    > those to whom any and all
                    > ideas, no matter how unconventional, can be safely
                    > communicated to without
                    > reservation. I have no difficulty intellectually
                    > examining any concept or
                    > idea with detachment and without prejudice. Nor do
                    > I have any difficulty
                    > in keeping confidence on any private or non-public
                    > matter.
                    >
                    > I believe that one primary purpose of a language is
                    > communication. So, if
                    > one is understood well, idea-wise, one has achieved
                    > >90% of a language's
                    > objective, even if there are many errors of
                    > pronunciation, grammar, and/
                    > or diction.
                    >
                    > Another equally important purpose of a language is
                    > to obtain knowledge. If
                    > one needs to know German in the 1940s to study
                    > what's important in Science,
                    > then one should do that. Today, the most widely
                    > used language in Science
                    > and commerce is English. So English is an important
                    > language to know well,
                    > though not necessarily master.
                    >
                    > For me, language proficiency means ideas are
                    > sufficiently communicated and
                    > not significantly misunderstood, while using that
                    > language.
                    >
                    > Anything one knows far beyond the needs of utility
                    > maybe a potential waste
                    > of time and effort that could be better spent
                    > elsewhere. Of course, what's
                    > useful or beneficial depends on one's needs, values
                    > and objectives. There
                    > are no absolutes. If having fun and games are
                    > important, then they are.
                    > If reading fiction is important to one, then it is.
                    >
                    > With knowledge explosion, the days of "King's
                    > English" are numbered, as
                    > people don't even have enough time to keep up with
                    > all the professional
                    > knowledge in their fields, and thus increasingly
                    > relegating any language
                    > "apple polishing" to leisure or pastime.
                    >
                    > Accent is nothing to feel ashamed of, since it marks
                    > the English speaker
                    > as a non-native speaker, and intellectually and
                    > educationally quite likely
                    > above the average guy who knows only English, and
                    > often not even that well.
                    >
                    > As for some English-speaking Americans feeling
                    > offended that others do not
                    > speak a language they can understand, and thereby
                    > unable to satisfy their
                    > curiosity about strangers' conversation, tough!
                    > That's the price one pays
                    > for ignorance. There are some people who are
                    > psychologically insecure and
                    > paranoid about losing control over others.
                    > Hopefully one does not have to
                    > deal with such type of person in family or social
                    > life, and on the job. I
                    > know there are nosy bosses or employers who must
                    > monitor all private talk.
                    > But, if one is indispensable to his/her employer,
                    > well, the power balance
                    > shifts greatly. Being situated in a servile
                    > position to please others is
                    > never a pleasant or healthy thing and is un-natural,
                    > the result of prior
                    > mental, psychological and/or cultural conditioning.
                    > So there is never a
                    > need or reason for self-confident people to feel
                    > apologetic for speaking
                    > or using their native tongue, if they so wish, in
                    > public or private.
                    >
                    > Ultimately, being able to speak a foreign language
                    > well can never be as
                    > important, useful and powerful as possessing vital
                    > knowledge and ideas
                    > of great utility. Should there be a trade-off, the
                    > latter should never
                    > be sacrificed for the former.
                    >
                    > Finally, it is OK to be misunderstood and to be
                    > different or not melding
                    > (or "melting") in. America is supposed to be a free
                    > country, so test it.
                    > One should be able to conduct pretty much as one
                    > damn pleases. In time,
                    > people will get to know your "style", and a lot of
                    > "misunderstanding"
                    > then fades away. Sometimes, it is far more
                    > efficient to let time do its
                    > job of "explanation" for you.
                    >
                    > As for opening up SVWomen to a cosmopolitan
                    > definition of membership,
                    > I don't think that's necessary. It is not possible
                    > to include everyone
                    > or please everyone, nor should one strive to do so.
                    > We'll no longer be
                    > the captain of our own ship, if, in trying to please
                    > too many people, we
                    > unduly compromise our own group's interests and
                    > original objectives.
                    >
                    >
                    > TK
                    >
                    >
                    > > Again, I do not speak for the group, in this email
                    > I only represent
                    > > myself, a member of the group. Here are the
                    > points that I support
                    > > using both English and Chinese:
                    > >
                    > > 1. The primary function/ purpose of this mailing
                    > list is
                    > > communication, sharing and posting information
                    > thus empower we woman
                    > > lives(and all other Chinese) in SV, It can be a
                    > tool to learn
                    > > English, but not a "primary" reason. -- so various
                    > languages can be
                    > > accepted as long as most of the members vote yes
                    > to it.
                    > >
                    > > 2. Of course, if enough resource(manpower, $$,
                    > time) is available,
                    > > then all others Chinese Women even American Women
                    > can be included --
                    > > we then can build up something translate the in
                    > Traditional Chinese,
                    > > English, even French, Italian .. -- All of these
                    > are possible!
                    > >
                    > > See, there are lot of things we can do for the
                    > group, to be
                    > > beneficial to all the group members . If everyone
                    > contributes some
                    > > of her time to this group, I believe we'll be a
                    > great group -- we'll
                    > > take step by step :)
                    > >
                    > > Helen, I am happy to hear from you this way, you
                    > make me realize, we
                    > > should not only focus on the small Chinese
                    > speaking women group but
                    > > for a bigger group with larger goal. The group
                    > definitely need people
                    > > like you to involve...
                    > >
                    > > I'll talk to you more in private mail. Good day,
                    > >
                    > > Yilan
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >


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