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Re: microsoft & macromedia .. ignoring svg ..

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  • Josh Zeidner
    Hello, Yes I noticed the heavy propaganda in Macromedia s statement as well. Macromedia cannot simply *ignore* SVG, because they run the risk of losing a
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 17, 2000
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      Hello,

      Yes I noticed the heavy propaganda in Macromedia's statement as
      well. Macromedia cannot simply *ignore* SVG, because they run the
      risk of losing a whole segment of developers/business , so thier
      strategy seems to be to recontexualize SVG into a *static* format
      to "exchange content between tools". That is rediculous! IVe never
      seen such a blatant attempt to territorialize on a specification in
      my life. Macromedia clearly does not want SVG to be supported at the
      browser level. As for an enumeration of SVGs advantages over flash:

      1) SVG is XML

      The *graphical* , *symbolic* data in SVG is in XML format(
      does not support XML in a superficial way like Flash ). Therefore,
      anyone is free to use any XML tool they see fit for processing SVG.
      In addition to that, the code itself can be analysed easily which is
      not possible in a binary format like flash.

      2) SVG is modular

      SVG does not have to be shipped over the network in one big
      chunk. By using CSS, an SVG view of an DTD type can be defined and
      only has to ship once per *data type*. If you want to view flash,
      you have to download the whole movie, and any elements of that file
      that can and should be reused is impossible. In an SVG page with
      heavy dynamic content, less metwork resources would be used than an
      application done with flash.

      3) SVG is a free open specification

      The SVG specification is not owned by any one organization.
      The SVG spec get revised democratically. Flash get revised based on
      business parterships and sanctioned compatablity integration.

      of course feel free to add to this list...

      -Josh Zeidner
      Brooklyn Media Labs, LLC.



      >
      > Macromedia:
      > "...useful static text-based format for Web designers who want to
      > exchange content between tools during the authoring process. SVG
      will
      > be a great complement to Flash, Macromedia's ubiquitous run-time
      > format..."
      >
      > Adobe:
      > "...Its compatibility with HTML, XML, DOM, CSS and JavaScript makes
      > it a perfect fit for today's Web authoring..."
      >
    • John McKeown
      Hi I find this discussion fascinating as I believed for some time that Macromedia would add SVG support to the Flash authoring tool. If they intend to do so
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 17, 2000
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        Hi

        I find this discussion fascinating as I believed for some time that
        Macromedia would add SVG support to the Flash authoring tool. If they
        intend to do so they've managed to keep very quiet about it. Aside
        from the testimonial mentioned in a previous post, they don't seem to
        have very much to say on the subject of SVG.

        Other working group members such as Adobe and Corel have already
        provided useful support for SVG in their editing tools. IBM and Sun
        have also been active in supporting the language. I assume Macromedia
        play an active part on the SVG working group, and I'm sure they have
        a lot of knowledge to offer. It would be nice to hear from somebody
        in Macromedia about how they intend to support SVG (if at all).

        Luckily the SVG community doesn't have to wait around for Microsoft
        and Macromedia to provide us with the SVG tools we need. Other
        companies (not just those on the working group) can see the potential
        of SVG, and are developing tools so we can start using the language
        now. And when SVG really takes off then certain companies may have
        some catching up to do...

        The Adobe SVG plugin is a great first step towards making SVG
        available on the Web, unfortunately the plugin is limited to windows
        machines. Mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/) will
        probably be the first browser to support SVG directly. In a way I'm
        happy that Microsoft aren't interested in SVG, the last thing the
        specification needs now (as it nears W3C Recommendation) is MS
        extensions.

        If Microsoft and Macromedia intend to ignore SVG - who cares? I have
        no doubt that sooner or later they will have to embrace SVG, and
        leave their own *open standards* (VML and Flash) behind. They are
        profit-driven after all...

        John
      • Leonard Rosenthol
        ... And Mac OS. There are also two other SVG viewers that will work on any platform with a Java VM - CSIRO ( ) and IBM
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 17, 2000
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          At 2:51 PM +0000 7/17/00, John McKeown wrote:
          >The Adobe SVG plugin is a great first step towards making SVG
          >available on the Web, unfortunately the plugin is limited to windows
          >machines.

          And Mac OS.

          There are also two other SVG viewers that will work on any
          platform with a Java VM - CSIRO (<http://sis.cmis.csiro.au/svg/>) and
          IBM (<http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/svgview>).


          >Mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/) will
          >probably be the first browser to support SVG directly.

          No question - since the main engineer on the CSIRO viewer is
          now part of the Mozilla team doing their SVG support ;).


          Leonard
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        • Chris Lilley
          ... Yes. In fact, its the only SVG implementation I am aware of for MacOS (id anyone knows different, feel free to tell me all about it). Somewhgat odd for
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 17, 2000
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            Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
            >
            > At 2:51 PM +0000 7/17/00, John McKeown wrote:
            > >The Adobe SVG plugin is a great first step towards making SVG
            > >available on the Web, unfortunately the plugin is limited to windows
            > >machines.
            >
            > And Mac OS.

            Yes. In fact, its the only SVG implementation I am aware of for MacOS (id
            anyone knows different, feel free to tell me all about it). Somewhgat odd
            for such a graphics-oriented, media-focussed platform.

            >
            > There are also two other SVG viewers that will work on any
            > platform with a Java VM - CSIRO (<http://sis.cmis.csiro.au/svg/>) and
            > IBM (<http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/svgview>).

            Anyone know if these wil work with the latest MRJ? IsMRJ up to Java 2 yet,
            or is it still Java 1.x?

            --
            Chris
          • Alek Traunic
            ... In our development here we are working cross platform. I am working on a WinNT box doing most of the JavaScript being used in our SVG test and LJ Ruell in
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 17, 2000
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              --- In svg-developers@egroups.com, "John McKeown" <mckeowj@m...>
              wrote:
              > The Adobe SVG plugin is a great first step towards making SVG
              > available on the Web, unfortunately the plugin is limited to
              > windows machines.
              >
              > John

              In our development here we are working cross platform. I am working
              on a WinNT box doing most of the JavaScript being used in our SVG
              test and LJ Ruell in working on a Mac doing most of the animation and
              graphical aspects of development. The Adobe plugin is working great
              for both of us. The only issue LJ faces is that in IE JS can not
              control the SVG. Netscape is just fine. This is just due to MS not
              knowing how to write an app that works on a platform that they did
              not make. It's a limitation of the browser, not the plugin. Since
              my background is in DHTML I was not surprised by this one bit because
              JavaScript on Mac IE has never been right, and probably never will be.

              I applaud Adobe for making this plugin so early in the process of
              SVG's growth. Most companies would not be willing to risk that kind
              of development time on something that is still in the 1.0 working
              draft phase, I can not say that I blame them. SVG is evolving and
              fortunately Adobe has given developers a chance to experiment with,
              and give feedback on, the standard. I am hesitant to condemn any
              company at this point for what appears to be lack of participation in
              SVG's growth. Let's wait until there is a half dozen commercial
              sites out there using the technology and then we can say "wake up and
              smell the coffee".

              Wade Harrell * Sr Content Engineer
              Iguana Studios Inc * 16 W 19th * 10th Floor * New York, NY 10011 -
              4205 * http://www.iguanastudios.com
            • Leonard Rosenthol
              ... Well, there is my SVG2PDF tool ( ) which is available for Mac OS (and Windows), and I hope to make our static
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 17, 2000
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                At 5:44 PM +0200 7/17/00, Chris Lilley wrote:
                >Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
                > > And Mac OS.
                >
                >Yes. In fact, its the only SVG implementation I am aware of for MacOS (id
                >anyone knows different, feel free to tell me all about it). Somewhgat odd
                >for such a graphics-oriented, media-focussed platform.

                Well, there is my SVG2PDF tool
                (<http://www.digapp.com/newpages/svg2pdf.html>) which is available
                for Mac OS (and Windows), and I hope to make our static SVG viewer
                (SVG2JPEG) for Mac OS and Windows public shortly along with a MUCH
                updated version of SVG2PDF.

                But otherwise, I think I'm the only person outside of Adobe
                working on Mac OS-based SVG tools.


                > > There are also two other SVG viewers that will work on any
                > > platform with a Java VM - CSIRO (<http://sis.cmis.csiro.au/svg/>) and
                > > IBM (<http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/svgview>).
                >
                >Anyone know if these wil work with the latest MRJ? IsMRJ up to Java 2 yet,
                >or is it still Java 1.x?
                >
                As someone else pointed out, MRJ is still (and will continue
                to be) Java 1.x. However Mac OS X includes a full Java2
                implementation based on licensed sources from Sun.


                Leonard
                --
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                You've got a SmartFriend in Pennsylvania
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Leonard Rosenthol Internet: leonardr@...
                America Online: MACgician
                Web Site: <http://www.lazerware.com/>
                FTP Site: <ftp://ftp.lazerware.com/>
                PGP Fingerprint: C76E 0497 C459 182D 0C6B AB6B CA10 B4DF 8067 5E65
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