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Re: microsoft & macromedia .. ignoring svg ..

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  • Josh Zeidner
    The more integrated Flash becomes the worse off for the development community as a whole. If flash becomes part of the browser, then it locks in all code to
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 14, 2000
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      The more integrated Flash becomes the worse off for the development
      community as a whole. If flash becomes part of the browser, then it
      locks in all code to the microsoft/macromedia browser platform. And
      it may even conform to the XML standard, but thier data type ( DTD or
      schema ) is still thier own property. I think in general a lot of
      this hooplah about the XML standard fails to address the fact that
      despite a standardized representation we still have incompatible and
      proprietary data types. In the future you will see a lot of
      commercial squabbling on whose DTD/Schemas get adopted for particular
      industries. Also: I imagine that macromedia is trying to appropriate
      SVG rather than make flash compatible. NOTE TO READERS: as a result
      of my posts Macromedia sent me an email about how thier products can
      be used for data intesive applications such as e-commerce. Hogwash.
      I wouldnt build a commercial ecommerce app based on generator or
      flash or anything from macromedia.

      Josh Zeidner- Brooklyn Media Labs, LLC

      listen to my radio show! www.netradioshow.com



      > before reading josh's interesting posts i would have said, that
      > macromedia has some business strategy to live with upcoming svg and
      > use it for their needs - anyhow ..
      > reading their press release ..
      >
      >
      http://www.macromedia.com/macromedia/proom/pr/2000/index_internet_expl
      > orer.fhtml
      >
      > .. "Macromedia .. today announced the most comprehensive
      integration
      > between the Macromedia Flash Player and a Web browser with today's
      > release of Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.5. At a keynote .. Bill
      > Gates demonstrated new functionality in Internet Explorer 5.5 that
      > for the first time enables developers to manipulate rich media
      > Macromedia Flash components on a Web page using custom Extensible
      > Markup Language (XML) tags" ..
      >
      > .. i am told, that
      > 1) flash is now an integrated browser component
      > 2) flash uses xml standard
      >
      > reading microsoft'article
      > ".. Macromedia's work with Flash shows how component providers can
      > seamlessly integrate their functionality with the browser
      > functionality .."
      > tells me, that
      > 1) flash is an example of how to use behaviors
      > 2) other component providers are welcome to do exactly the same
      >
      > .. lookin' at that for a while, i suspect, that ms is much more
      aware
      > of open standards than macromedia ..
      >
      > a) xml is the basis of microsoft's .net stuff ..
      > b) soap was handed out to w3c ..
      > c) the new c# language was announced and transferred to ecma for
      open
      > standardization (sun wanted to do exactly that with java .. too
      late)
      >
      > .. well knowing what ms claims and what they do may be different ..
      >
      > .. a lot of companies today feel the power of open standards and
      > decide to walk side by side with them .. just to survive.
      >
      > it's only my two pfennig here
      >
      > :-) stefan
      >
      >
      > --- In svg-developers@egroups.com, "Josh Zeidner"
      > <jmz_phylogenic@h...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Why wouldnt Macromedia make an "export to SVG" option? Because
      > > Macromedia has to make money, and doing that would be an
      excellent
      > > way to stop making money. Macromedia stays in business because
      it
      > > owns the rights to the Flash spec. You might respond to this by
      > > saying: but Flash is an Open spec! It is totally open for anyone
      > to
      > > analyse, but if you should attempt to take the spec and change it
      > in
      > > some way and call it your own, you would be playing in
      Macromedias
      > > sandbox and they would take you to court. SVG is an open spec
      and
      > > macromedia does not have a position in that area. They want
      people
      > > using Flash and buying Flash and they want thier partners buying
      > > thier specs and documentation and manpower. If you could export
      to
      > > SVG you could easily bypass macromedia. For one, you would have
      no
      > > need for thier Generator product because you could use any web-
      > > scripting platform you chose to perform the same functionality(
      > php,
      > > perl, cold-fusion ). In a nutshell, MAcromedia DOES NOT LIKE
      SVG.
      > > Take a look at thier site. They dont mention it once, despite it
      > > being highly relevant to what macromedia does. SVG represents an
      > > open-source, democratic version of what macromedia does as a
      > > company. And theve got thier stock valuation to worry about.
      L8r.
      > >
      > > -Josh Zeidner
      > > Brooklyn Media Labs, LLC
      > >
      > >
      > > > hi,
      > > >
      > > > two reasons for THIS post.. I just posted (or thought I posted
      > > > another post. but It hasn't come up.) I figure
      > > > there is some lag in displaying posts... but just want to double
      > > > check if i sent it correctly.(gonna pay attention
      > > > this time.)
      > > >
      > > > Flash. I am a Flash freak. I love Flash. when I first saw SVG
      > > I
      > > > hated it. bah humbugged it. said its useless.
      > > > then I realised I was SCARED of it. So I started looking into it
      > > > more. now I'm not so scared.
      > > >
      > > > anyway what about Flash? I figure they are scared like I
      > > was.... but
      > > > wouldn't it be great if Flash embraced
      > > > SVG instead of trying to compete? I recently saw some
      screenshots
      > > for
      > > > flash 5 at flashkit.com...
      > > >
      > > > http://www.flashkit.com/tutorials/flash5/tute_start.shtml
      > > >
      > > > I was hoping to see .svg as one of the export options. but
      > didn't. I
      > > > imagine the stuff that makes flash work isn't
      > > > all that different than what makes SVG work. my hope is that
      > > > macromedia is right now working away on an
      > > > export as svg option.... why not make flash the best authoring
      > > > software for SVG? I know I'm gettin tired of
      > > > using simpletext! would it really be that hard to do?
      > > >
      > > > l.j.
      > > >
      > > > --- In svg-developers@egroups.com, "Josh Zeidner"
      > > > <jmz_phylogenic@h...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Stefan,
      > > > >
      > > > > Good observation. I suspect what is really going on is that
      > > > Macromedia
      > > > > sees SVG as a *major* threat to its business( for very good
      > reason
      > > > ) and is
      > > > > cutting its losses by partnering closely with microsoft for
      > direct
      > > > support
      > > > > of its formats. If macromedia does not make it very easy to
      use
      > > > its
      > > > > products it will die out as a result of SVG. SVG has much
      more
      > > > potential
      > > > > than flash because flash does not expose its internal data.
      I
      > was
      > > > involved
      > > > > with the development of a flash content management system and
      > was
      > > > forced to
      > > > > deal with the limitations of flash directly. Basically, flash
      > > > cannot be
      > > > > used for data intensive applications. It is ideal for little
      > > > animations and
      > > > > *not* for applications like e-commerce, graphical data
      > management(
      > > > maps and
      > > > > what not ), etc. In addition SVG is XML, which makes it
      > > compatible
      > > > with the
      > > > > whole slew of XML technologies such as XSLT. XSLT and CSS
      > could
      > > be
      > > > > leveraged in powerful ways with SVG. Microsoft im sure is
      > aware
      > > of
      > > > this,
      > > > > but obviously, Macromedia made it immediatlely advantagous for
      > > > microsoft to
      > > > > support flash instead of SVG( by offering *moolah* ). SVG
      will
      > > > eventually
      > > > > supplant Flash as the standard spec, but no doubt will have
      its
      > > own
      > > > > implementations/interpretations by vendors such as msoft and
      > > > macromedia.
      > > > >
      > > > > -Josh Zeidner
      > > > > Brooklyn Media Labs ,LLC
      > > > >
      > > > > >hi svg'ers,
      > > > > >
      > > > > >.. microsoft currently announces a lot of new stuff at pdc
      > > > developer
      > > > > >conference in orlando .. i don't want to discuss it here ..
      > > simply
      > > > > >look at ..
      > > > > >
      > > > > >http://codeproject.com/
      > > > > >http://msdn.microsoft.com/
      > > > > >
      > > > > >but there is an article about the questionable behavior
      > > technology
      > > > > >in new ie5.5 concerning graphics by Michael Wallent ..
      > > > > >
      > > > > >http://msdn.microsoft.com/voices/dude07122000.asp
      > > > > >
      > > > > >ms is obviously totally ignoring svg .. but at the same time
      > they
      > > > > >seem to ignore their own vml also.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >i assume, ms is waiting and watching svg standardization and
      > > > > >developement process. when svg is mature - whatever this
      > means -
      > > > > >microsoft will decide to do, or not to do .. i predict ms
      > *will*
      > > > > >support svg, it is only a matter of time.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >:-) stefan
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >-----------------------------------------------
      > > > -------------------------
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      > > > > >If not, check this site out.
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      > > a
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      > > > > >http://click.egroups.com/1/6847/6/_/68048/_/963499022/
      > > > > >-----------------------------------------------
      > > > -------------------------
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________________________
      > > > ________________________
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