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SVG and patents

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  • Tobias Reif
    Hi I don t know much about the patent issues related to SVG, so I can t say if I share the views expressed (sometimes quite drastically) in this post:
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 1, 2001
      Hi

      I don't know much about the patent issues related to SVG, so I can't say
      if I share the views expressed (sometimes quite drastically) in this post:
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/2001Sep/0131.html

      But I do hope that all issues that seem to be a reason for paragraphs
      like the one quoted below get resolved in a satisfying manner.
      quote:

      "This would mean SVG became a multi-vendor consortium pushing a private
      specification. But let's face it - with the patents involved - that is
      precisely what it is. It may even be appropriate for SVG work to be
      transferred to the ITU."

      again: I don't know enough about all that law stuff to express opinions
      about details, but I hope SVG (is and) stays a truly open and free
      format, free for anyone to use for anything, with no fees and charges
      involved.

      The post I'm talking about was on
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/
      so all generall messages about W3C and patents should be discussed there;
      the SVG specifics are appropriate to be discussed here.

      Tobi
      --
      Tobias Reif
      http://www.pinkjuice.com/myDigitalProfile.xhtml

      go_to('www.ruby-lang.org').get(ruby).play.create.have_fun
      http://www.pinkjuice.com/ruby/
    • Dean Jackson
      [quickly stepping in before everything goes crazy :) ] Hi Tobi, Before everyone falls victim to the FUD, here is the current situation (from the SVG patents
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 1, 2001
        [quickly stepping in before everything goes crazy :) ]

        Hi Tobi,

        Before everyone falls victim to the FUD, here is the
        current situation (from the SVG patents page linked
        from the Status section of the SVG Rec). I think it is
        everything you need to know (as is, at the moment, as
        much as Chris and I can say)

        - The majority of SVG working group members are providing a Royalty
        Free license for SVG 1.0.

        - There are four organisations who offered a RAND license for SVG
        1.0. Examining each in detail:

        * Kodak have publically stated that while they are unable to
        provide a RF license for their existing IP, they believe that
        they have no essential claims on the SVG 1.0
        specification. Furthermore, they participate in an open-source
        effort to implement the complete SVG 1.0 specification.

        * Apple informed the SVG 1.0 Working Group very early in the SVG
        1.0 process of the patent they listed in their license
        statement. The SVG Working Group made a concerted effort to
        produce a specification that does not require implementors to
        infringe the patent.

        * The other two RAND licenses were from IBM and Quark, both of
        whom have not announced any patents since the request for IP
        licenses was issued (in May 2001).


        Imagine the activity the discussion you mention has caused
        at the W3C :)

        Dean


        On Mon, 01 Oct 2001, Tobias Reif wrote:

        > Hi
        >
        > I don't know much about the patent issues related to SVG, so I can't say
        > if I share the views expressed (sometimes quite drastically) in this post:
        > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/2001Sep/0131.html
        >
        > But I do hope that all issues that seem to be a reason for paragraphs
        > like the one quoted below get resolved in a satisfying manner.
        > quote:
        >
        > "This would mean SVG became a multi-vendor consortium pushing a private
        > specification. But let's face it - with the patents involved - that is
        > precisely what it is. It may even be appropriate for SVG work to be
        > transferred to the ITU."
        >
        > again: I don't know enough about all that law stuff to express opinions
        > about details, but I hope SVG (is and) stays a truly open and free
        > format, free for anyone to use for anything, with no fees and charges
        > involved.
        >
        > The post I'm talking about was on
        > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/
        > so all generall messages about W3C and patents should be discussed there;
        > the SVG specifics are appropriate to be discussed here.
        >
        > Tobi
        > --
        > Tobias Reif
        > http://www.pinkjuice.com/myDigitalProfile.xhtml
        >
        > go_to('www.ruby-lang.org').get(ruby).play.create.have_fun
        > http://www.pinkjuice.com/ruby/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Chris Lilley
        ... I responded to Alan on that coment; it was sent to a moderated forum and I have not seen it being posted yet.
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 1, 2001
          Tobias Reif wrote:

          > But I do hope that all issues that seem to be a reason for paragraphs
          > like the one quoted below get resolved in a satisfying manner.
          > quote:
          >
          > "This would mean SVG became a multi-vendor consortium pushing a private
          > specification. But let's face it - with the patents involved - that is
          > precisely what it is. It may even be appropriate for SVG work to be
          > transferred to the ITU."

          I responded to Alan on that coment; it was sent to a moderated forum and
          I have not seen it being posted yet.
          http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-09-30-010-20-OP-CY

          I asked Alan to name a patent that was essential for the implementation
          of SVG. I extend the same invitation to others.

          --
          Chris
        • Bernhard Herzog
          ... Maybe Adobe s patent 6,028,583: Abstract A method of compositing a set of ordered image layers in which a compound layer contains a plurality of image
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 1, 2001
            Chris Lilley <chris@...> writes:

            > I asked Alan to name a patent that was essential for the implementation
            > of SVG. I extend the same invitation to others.

            Maybe Adobe's patent 6,028,583:

            Abstract

            A method of compositing a set of ordered image layers in which a
            compound layer contains a plurality of image layers. The compound
            layer has a compound layer effect. Any image layers under the
            compound layer are composited to generate a first intermediate
            image, the first intermediate image is composited with each image
            layer in the compound layer to generate a second intermediate image,
            the first intermediate image is composited with the second
            intermediate image according to the compound layer effect to
            generate a third intermediate image, and the third intermediate
            image is composited with any remaining image layers to generate a
            final image.

            I haven't read that patent completely but it seems to me that it's
            essential for the group opacity and filter effects of SVG.

            So far Adobe only grants Royalty Free licenses if all other working
            group members also offer RF licenses.

            Bernhard

            --
            Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/
            Sketch http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
            MapIt! http://mapit.de/
          • Steve White
            I don t know which patents may apply to SVG but I agree with the sentiment in Alan Cox s article. A lot of the patents related to computer graphics are BS. Did
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 1, 2001
              I don't know which patents may apply to SVG but I agree with the sentiment
              in Alan Cox's article. A lot of the patents related to computer graphics are
              BS. Did it start with the E&S patent on a 4x4 matrix? How about a patent on
              Multi-Media? Someone got that at least for awhile. Unisys patent on LZW is a
              real classic. How much actual development resources really went into that? A
              lot less than the hindrance it has caused the development community.

              I am not very familiar with Adobe's patent on Layers or Kodak's patent on
              R-A, G-A, B-A (if I understood the reference I once saw posted) but I know I
              was writing compositing routines that used R-A, G-A, B-A, A-A back in the
              mid 80's. If no one else has claimed that I would like to assert my claim to
              it now, not to mention some morphing routines I did to reconstruct 3D
              structures from cat scans. I also want a patent on vector graphics over the
              Internet, I showed that to Rob Burgess back in 95. There is probably a lot
              more but don't worry, I will not demand any royalties unless your making
              money.

              Yours Truly

              Steve White
              www.VirtualMechanics.com
              www.DHTMLMagic.com
              www.SVGMagic.com
              www.IMSWebTips.com

              -----Original Message-----
              From: bh@... [mailto:bh@...]On Behalf Of Bernhard Herzog
              Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:38 AM
              To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [svg-developers] SVG and patents


              Chris Lilley <chris@...> writes:

              > I asked Alan to name a patent that was essential for the implementation
              > of SVG. I extend the same invitation to others.

              Maybe Adobe's patent 6,028,583:

              Abstract

              A method of compositing a set of ordered image layers in which a
              compound layer contains a plurality of image layers. The compound
              layer has a compound layer effect. Any image layers under the
              compound layer are composited to generate a first intermediate
              image, the first intermediate image is composited with each image
              layer in the compound layer to generate a second intermediate image,
              the first intermediate image is composited with the second
              intermediate image according to the compound layer effect to
              generate a third intermediate image, and the third intermediate
              image is composited with any remaining image layers to generate a
              final image.

              I haven't read that patent completely but it seems to me that it's
              essential for the group opacity and filter effects of SVG.

              So far Adobe only grants Royalty Free licenses if all other working
              group members also offer RF licenses.

              Bernhard

              --
              Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/
              Sketch http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
              MapIt! http://mapit.de/




              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Dean Jackson
              ... Well... I did actually send it 24 hours ago :(
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 2, 2001
                On Mon, 01 Oct 2001, Dean Jackson wrote:

                > [quickly stepping in before everything goes crazy :) ]


                Well... I did actually send it 24 hours ago :(
              • Tobias Reif
                Dean, I did not want to spread FUD, I was worried about its impact. Like I said: the post by Cox is way too drastic, and I hope that all issues that seem to be
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 2, 2001
                  Dean,

                  I did not want to spread FUD, I was worried about its impact.

                  Like I said: the post by Cox is way too drastic, and I hope that all
                  issues that seem to be a reason for posts like his get resolved in a
                  manner that's satisfying for all parties involved.

                  I think the Linux and Open Source world can and hopefully will be a
                  major factor in SVGs success, so it seems to be important to stop those
                  FUD posts (that influence many that don't know it better), by spreading
                  the facts in a language that can be understood by all.
                  The facts are important, but it's also important to make them available
                  for or even transport them to people that are kinda uninformed or even
                  prejudiced.

                  So thanks for you summary. If it means that there are no problems for
                  implementers and users of SVG, then I'm happy.

                  Tobi


                  Tobias Reif
                  http://www.pinkjuice.com/myDigitalProfile.xhtml

                  go_to('www.ruby-lang.org').get(ruby).play.create.have_fun
                  http://www.pinkjuice.com/ruby/
                • Robin Berjon
                  ... Someone ought to try to calm xml-dev down if that s a goal, because things pretty much blew up there (as they always do for things relating to patents). --
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 2, 2001
                    On Tuesday 02 October 2001 17:26, Tobias Reif wrote:
                    > I think the Linux and Open Source world can and hopefully will be a
                    > major factor in SVGs success, so it seems to be important to stop those
                    > FUD posts (that influence many that don't know it better), by spreading
                    > the facts in a language that can be understood by all.

                    Someone ought to try to calm xml-dev down if that's a goal, because things
                    pretty much blew up there (as they always do for things relating to patents).

                    --
                    _______________________________________________________________________
                    Robin Berjon <robin@...> -- CTO
                    k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com
                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.
                  • Bernhard Herzog
                    ... [Kodak, Apple, IBM, Quark] ISTM that Adobe should be listed here, too. They only offer RF licenses if all other WG members also offer RF licenses. Since
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 4, 2001
                      Dean Jackson <dean@...> writes:

                      > - There are four organisations who offered a RAND license for SVG
                      > 1.0. Examining each in detail:
                      [Kodak, Apple, IBM, Quark]

                      ISTM that Adobe should be listed here, too. They only offer RF licenses
                      if all other WG members also offer RF licenses. Since there are members
                      that don't offer RF licenses Adobe effectively only offers RAND
                      licenses.

                      Bernhard

                      --
                      Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/
                      Sketch http://sketch.sourceforge.net/
                      MapIt! http://mapit.de/
                    • Chris Lilley
                      ... I have asked them for clarification on that. -- Chris
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 4, 2001
                        Bernhard Herzog wrote:
                        >
                        > Dean Jackson <dean@...> writes:
                        >
                        > > - There are four organisations who offered a RAND license for SVG
                        > > 1.0. Examining each in detail:
                        > [Kodak, Apple, IBM, Quark]
                        >
                        > ISTM that Adobe should be listed here, too. They only offer RF licenses
                        > if all other WG members also offer RF licenses. Since there are members
                        > that don't offer RF licenses Adobe effectively only offers RAND
                        > licenses.

                        I have asked them for clarification on that.

                        --
                        Chris
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