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Re: [svg-developers] Re: What am I overlooking?

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  • Jerrold Maddox
    It wouldn t just be in svg. http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/unsupported.html Jerry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 11, 2013
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      It wouldn't just be in svg.
      http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/unsupported.html

      Jerry

      On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Robert Longson <longsonr@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      >
      > > The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence
      > to scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at
      > http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength
      > and use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite
      > behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1
      > which is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at
      > least in the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of
      > progress, I suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced
      > text handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the
      > HTML CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to
      > apply them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose
      > some, but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with
      > my pessimism.
      > >
      > >
      >
      > It's true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has
      > nothing to do with why we're not doing SVG fonts.
      >
      > SVG Fonts only support some of the world's languages. Those supported
      > languages happen to include the one that you prefer to use - English. If
      > your generally used Hindi for reading/writing you would be asking why you
      > can't use SVG Fonts at all even in the UAs that support them rather than
      > advocating that more UAs support something you just can't use.
      >
      > Robert.
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Dailey
      I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph s footprint (which some browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1, then
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 11, 2013
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        I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph's footprint (which some
        browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1,
        then top-aligned fonts like Hindi and the other non-Dravidian Indian scipts,
        as well as reverse directional scripts would be straightforward. What
        problems does Hindi present? I used Tamil just fine in my talk in Chennai a
        year ago though it is Dravidian, and my Chinese seems to have been
        acceptable in Guangzhou. Our paper on text and accessibility
        http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/GeometricAccessibility.html talks about a
        need for general solutions to alignment, shaping, and the like, as well, as
        the need to be able to create, customized, roll-your-own fonts on the fly.
        Half the world's writing uses standardized fonts; another half (for shop
        signs, graffiti, menus, logos and the like) uses roll-your-own fonts
        custom-built for specific problems.). Throwing away SVG fonts means dooming
        half the world's expressions to bitmaps.



        Cheers

        D



        From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of Robert Longson
        Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:24 PM
        To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [svg-developers] Re: What am I overlooking?






        > The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence to
        scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at
        http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength and
        use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite
        behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1 which
        is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at least in
        the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of progress, I
        suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced text
        handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the HTML
        CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to apply
        them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose some,
        but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with my
        pessimism.
        >
        >

        It's true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has
        nothing to do with why we're not doing SVG fonts.

        SVG Fonts only support some of the world's languages. Those supported
        languages happen to include the one that you prefer to use - English. If
        your generally used Hindi for reading/writing you would be asking why you
        can't use SVG Fonts at all even in the UAs that support them rather than
        advocating that more UAs support something you just can't use.

        Robert.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Longson
        ... Complex shaping is missing from SVG Fonts. As for bitmaps only, that s not true either. In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 12, 2013
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          >
          > I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph's footprint (which some
          > browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1,
          > then top-aligned fonts like Hindi and the other non-Dravidian Indian scipts,
          > as well as reverse directional scripts would be straightforward. What
          > problems does Hindi present? I used Tamil just fine in my talk in Chennai a
          > year ago though it is Dravidian, and my Chinese seems to have been
          > acceptable in Guangzhou. Our paper on text and accessibility
          > http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/GeometricAccessibility.html talks about a
          > need for general solutions to alignment, shaping, and the like, as well, as
          > the need to be able to create, customized, roll-your-own fonts on the fly.
          > Half the world's writing uses standardized fonts; another half (for shop
          > signs, graffiti, menus, logos and the like) uses roll-your-own fonts
          > custom-built for specific problems.). Throwing away SVG fonts means dooming
          > half the world's expressions to bitmaps.
          >

          Complex shaping is missing from SVG Fonts.

          As for bitmaps only, that's not true either. In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0636.html, https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286 for more information.

          Robert
        • jamesd
          ... I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format? James
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 13, 2013
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            --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Longson" wrote:

            >In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics.>

            I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format?

            James
          • Robert Longson
            The links I provided in the previous post is all I know. Looks like the bug still needs additional documentation judging by the dev-doc-needed marker. Robert.
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 13, 2013
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              The links I provided in the previous post is all I know. Looks like the bug still needs additional documentation judging by the dev-doc-needed marker.

              Robert.

              --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesd" wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Longson" wrote:
              >
              > >In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics.>
              >
              > I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format?
              >
              > James
              >
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