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Re: What am I overlooking?

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  • Robert Longson
    ... It s true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has nothing to do with why we re not doing SVG fonts. SVG Fonts only support some of
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 11, 2013
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      > The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence to scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength and use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1 which is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at least in the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of progress, I suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced text handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the HTML CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to apply them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose some, but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with my pessimism.
      >
      >

      It's true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has nothing to do with why we're not doing SVG fonts.

      SVG Fonts only support some of the world's languages. Those supported languages happen to include the one that you prefer to use - English. If your generally used Hindi for reading/writing you would be asking why you can't use SVG Fonts at all even in the UAs that support them rather than advocating that more UAs support something you just can't use.

      Robert.
    • Jerrold Maddox
      It wouldn t just be in svg. http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/unsupported.html Jerry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 11, 2013
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        It wouldn't just be in svg.
        http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/unsupported.html

        Jerry

        On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Robert Longson <longsonr@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        >
        > > The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence
        > to scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at
        > http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength
        > and use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite
        > behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1
        > which is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at
        > least in the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of
        > progress, I suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced
        > text handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the
        > HTML CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to
        > apply them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose
        > some, but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with
        > my pessimism.
        > >
        > >
        >
        > It's true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has
        > nothing to do with why we're not doing SVG fonts.
        >
        > SVG Fonts only support some of the world's languages. Those supported
        > languages happen to include the one that you prefer to use - English. If
        > your generally used Hindi for reading/writing you would be asking why you
        > can't use SVG Fonts at all even in the UAs that support them rather than
        > advocating that more UAs support something you just can't use.
        >
        > Robert.
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Dailey
        I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph s footprint (which some browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1, then
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 11, 2013
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          I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph's footprint (which some
          browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1,
          then top-aligned fonts like Hindi and the other non-Dravidian Indian scipts,
          as well as reverse directional scripts would be straightforward. What
          problems does Hindi present? I used Tamil just fine in my talk in Chennai a
          year ago though it is Dravidian, and my Chinese seems to have been
          acceptable in Guangzhou. Our paper on text and accessibility
          http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/GeometricAccessibility.html talks about a
          need for general solutions to alignment, shaping, and the like, as well, as
          the need to be able to create, customized, roll-your-own fonts on the fly.
          Half the world's writing uses standardized fonts; another half (for shop
          signs, graffiti, menus, logos and the like) uses roll-your-own fonts
          custom-built for specific problems.). Throwing away SVG fonts means dooming
          half the world's expressions to bitmaps.



          Cheers

          D



          From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Robert Longson
          Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:24 PM
          To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [svg-developers] Re: What am I overlooking?






          > The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence to
          scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at
          http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength and
          use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite
          behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1 which
          is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at least in
          the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of progress, I
          suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced text
          handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the HTML
          CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to apply
          them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose some,
          but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with my
          pessimism.
          >
          >

          It's true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has
          nothing to do with why we're not doing SVG fonts.

          SVG Fonts only support some of the world's languages. Those supported
          languages happen to include the one that you prefer to use - English. If
          your generally used Hindi for reading/writing you would be asking why you
          can't use SVG Fonts at all even in the UAs that support them rather than
          advocating that more UAs support something you just can't use.

          Robert.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Longson
          ... Complex shaping is missing from SVG Fonts. As for bitmaps only, that s not true either. In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 12, 2013
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            >
            > I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph's footprint (which some
            > browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1,
            > then top-aligned fonts like Hindi and the other non-Dravidian Indian scipts,
            > as well as reverse directional scripts would be straightforward. What
            > problems does Hindi present? I used Tamil just fine in my talk in Chennai a
            > year ago though it is Dravidian, and my Chinese seems to have been
            > acceptable in Guangzhou. Our paper on text and accessibility
            > http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/GeometricAccessibility.html talks about a
            > need for general solutions to alignment, shaping, and the like, as well, as
            > the need to be able to create, customized, roll-your-own fonts on the fly.
            > Half the world's writing uses standardized fonts; another half (for shop
            > signs, graffiti, menus, logos and the like) uses roll-your-own fonts
            > custom-built for specific problems.). Throwing away SVG fonts means dooming
            > half the world's expressions to bitmaps.
            >

            Complex shaping is missing from SVG Fonts.

            As for bitmaps only, that's not true either. In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0636.html, https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286 for more information.

            Robert
          • jamesd
            ... I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format? James
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 13, 2013
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              --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Longson" wrote:

              >In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics.>

              I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format?

              James
            • Robert Longson
              The links I provided in the previous post is all I know. Looks like the bug still needs additional documentation judging by the dev-doc-needed marker. Robert.
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 13, 2013
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                The links I provided in the previous post is all I know. Looks like the bug still needs additional documentation judging by the dev-doc-needed marker.

                Robert.

                --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesd" wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Longson" wrote:
                >
                > >In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics.>
                >
                > I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format?
                >
                > James
                >
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