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Re: [svg-developers] What am I overlooking?

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  • Jerrold Maddox
    David Try this site too. Problems with both using unicode characters and svg. Different on all four the browsers - Chrome, Firefox, Opera and Safari
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 10, 2013
      David

      Try this site too. Problems with both using unicode characters and svg.
      Different on all four the browsers - Chrome, Firefox, Opera and Safari

      http://clarify.site44.com/smallgraphics.html

      Jerry

      On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Dailey <ddailey@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > It was fascinating to me to see how inconsistently Jerry’s example
      > rendered across browsers. IE9 did something still different and what I saw
      > in the four browsers Jerry reported on, my observations were quite
      > different than his.
      >
      > Would we not expect SVG in HTML to render more consistently across
      > browsers? If so would that be an SVG WG thing or an HTML5 WG thing?
      >
      > Cheers
      >
      > David
      >
      > From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
      > svg-developers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Erik Dahlstrom
      > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
      > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [svg-developers] What am I overlooking?
      >
      >
      > On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:51:22 +0100, Jerrold Maddox jxm22@... > wrote:
      >
      > > The is site using svg that works in Chrome and Safari, but half the lower
      > > series is cut off in Firefox and Opera.
      > > Can anyone suggest a way to fix it?
      > >
      > > http://clarify.site44.com/opacity.html
      > >
      > > Thanks.
      > > Jerry
      >
      > Judging by the content you should add: viewBox="0 0 500 550". Otherwise
      > you might get some parts of the svg clipped no matter what (depends on the
      > resolved size of the CSS box for the svg).
      >
      > Alternatively you could set width and height to the same absolute values
      > (500x550px).
      >
      > Or you could add some CSS:
      > html, body { height: 100% }
      >
      > My recommendation would be to define the coordinate system with viewBox.
      >
      > Cheers
      > --
      > Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
      > Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
      > Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Dailey
      Hi Jerry, At http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/font_effects_JM_IE9.jpg you can see what it looks like in IE9 – yet one more interpretation. I think part of this has
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 10, 2013
        Hi Jerry,



        At http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/font_effects_JM_IE9.jpg you can see what it looks like in IE9 – yet one more interpretation.



        I think part of this has to do with word-spacing and line height.



        The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence to scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength and use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1 which is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at least in the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of progress, I suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced text handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the HTML CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to apply them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose some, but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with my pessimism.



        In your play with fonts, you might enjoy this subset of the open font Symbola, available as both glyphs and paths at

        http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/SymbolaB1.svg -- the entire emoji Unicode plus some emojiPlus characters are there.



        In Firefox, you will see radically different versions of things using the same version of Firefox in the same OS, but on different machines since it seems intent on pulling from installed system fonts rather than relying on path data;



        The score card for browsers support of SVG fonts can be seen at http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/65934



        Many of the SVG WG seem not to know this information, so please don’t tell them ;) It will be our secret.



        David





        From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jerrold Maddox
        Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:04 PM
        To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [svg-developers] What am I overlooking?





        David

        Try this site too. Problems with both using unicode characters and svg.
        Different on all four the browsers - Chrome, Firefox, Opera and Safari

        http://clarify.site44.com/smallgraphics.html

        Jerry

        On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM, David Dailey ddailey@... <mailto:ddailey%40zoominternet.net> >wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > It was fascinating to me to see how inconsistently Jerry’s example
        > rendered across browsers. IE9 did something still different and what I saw
        > in the four browsers Jerry reported on, my observations were quite
        > different than his.
        >
        > Would we not expect SVG in HTML to render more consistently across
        > browsers? If so would that be an SVG WG thing or an HTML5 WG thing?
        >
        > Cheers
        >
        > David
        >
        > From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
        > svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Erik Dahlstrom
        > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
        > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: [svg-developers] What am I overlooking?
        >
        >
        > On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:51:22 +0100, Jerrold Maddox jxm22@... <mailto:jxm22%40psu.edu> > wrote:
        >
        > > The is site using svg that works in Chrome and Safari, but half the lower
        > > series is cut off in Firefox and Opera.
        > > Can anyone suggest a way to fix it?
        > >
        > > http://clarify.site44.com/opacity.html
        > >
        > > Thanks.
        > > Jerry
        >
        > Judging by the content you should add: viewBox="0 0 500 550". Otherwise
        > you might get some parts of the svg clipped no matter what (depends on the
        > resolved size of the CSS box for the svg).
        >
        > Alternatively you could set width and height to the same absolute values
        > (500x550px).
        >
        > Or you could add some CSS:
        > html, body { height: 100% }
        >
        > My recommendation would be to define the coordinate system with viewBox.
        >
        > Cheers
        > --
        > Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
        > Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
        > Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Longson
        ... It s true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has nothing to do with why we re not doing SVG fonts. SVG Fonts only support some of
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 11, 2013
          > The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence to scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength and use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1 which is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at least in the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of progress, I suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced text handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the HTML CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to apply them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose some, but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with my pessimism.
          >
          >

          It's true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has nothing to do with why we're not doing SVG fonts.

          SVG Fonts only support some of the world's languages. Those supported languages happen to include the one that you prefer to use - English. If your generally used Hindi for reading/writing you would be asking why you can't use SVG Fonts at all even in the UAs that support them rather than advocating that more UAs support something you just can't use.

          Robert.
        • Jerrold Maddox
          It wouldn t just be in svg. http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/unsupported.html Jerry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 11, 2013
            It wouldn't just be in svg.
            http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/unsupported.html

            Jerry

            On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Robert Longson <longsonr@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            >
            > > The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence
            > to scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at
            > http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength
            > and use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite
            > behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1
            > which is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at
            > least in the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of
            > progress, I suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced
            > text handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the
            > HTML CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to
            > apply them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose
            > some, but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with
            > my pessimism.
            > >
            > >
            >
            > It's true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has
            > nothing to do with why we're not doing SVG fonts.
            >
            > SVG Fonts only support some of the world's languages. Those supported
            > languages happen to include the one that you prefer to use - English. If
            > your generally used Hindi for reading/writing you would be asking why you
            > can't use SVG Fonts at all even in the UAs that support them rather than
            > advocating that more UAs support something you just can't use.
            >
            > Robert.
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Dailey
            I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph s footprint (which some browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1, then
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 11, 2013
              I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph's footprint (which some
              browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1,
              then top-aligned fonts like Hindi and the other non-Dravidian Indian scipts,
              as well as reverse directional scripts would be straightforward. What
              problems does Hindi present? I used Tamil just fine in my talk in Chennai a
              year ago though it is Dravidian, and my Chinese seems to have been
              acceptable in Guangzhou. Our paper on text and accessibility
              http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/GeometricAccessibility.html talks about a
              need for general solutions to alignment, shaping, and the like, as well, as
              the need to be able to create, customized, roll-your-own fonts on the fly.
              Half the world's writing uses standardized fonts; another half (for shop
              signs, graffiti, menus, logos and the like) uses roll-your-own fonts
              custom-built for specific problems.). Throwing away SVG fonts means dooming
              half the world's expressions to bitmaps.



              Cheers

              D



              From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of Robert Longson
              Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:24 PM
              To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [svg-developers] Re: What am I overlooking?






              > The only way I could get text to scale properly to a viewBox (and hence to
              scale in a device-independent way) for most of the examples at
              http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/text/ was to set textLength and
              use lengthAdjust="spacingAndGlyphs" Firefox, seems to be lagging quite
              behind in its support of the advanced text handling features of SVG1.1 which
              is why, I gather, they are recommending that support for text, at least in
              the form of SVG fonts be dropped from SVG2.0, in the name of progress, I
              suppose. It remains to be seen if all other aspects of advanced text
              handling will be dropped from SVG. Part of it, I gather, is that the HTML
              CSS crowd have discovered how cool SVG effects are and they want to apply
              them to HTML even if it means trashing SVG in the process. I suppose some,
              but not all members of the SVG WG might have reason to disagree with my
              pessimism.
              >
              >

              It's true that Firefox is lagging behind with some text features. That has
              nothing to do with why we're not doing SVG fonts.

              SVG Fonts only support some of the world's languages. Those supported
              languages happen to include the one that you prefer to use - English. If
              your generally used Hindi for reading/writing you would be asking why you
              can't use SVG Fonts at all even in the UAs that support them rather than
              advocating that more UAs support something you just can't use.

              Robert.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert Longson
              ... Complex shaping is missing from SVG Fonts. As for bitmaps only, that s not true either. In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 12, 2013
                >
                > I always assumed that if we had access to a glyph's footprint (which some
                > browsers do) together with the various test-alignment properties in SVG 1.1,
                > then top-aligned fonts like Hindi and the other non-Dravidian Indian scipts,
                > as well as reverse directional scripts would be straightforward. What
                > problems does Hindi present? I used Tamil just fine in my talk in Chennai a
                > year ago though it is Dravidian, and my Chinese seems to have been
                > acceptable in Guangzhou. Our paper on text and accessibility
                > http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/GeometricAccessibility.html talks about a
                > need for general solutions to alignment, shaping, and the like, as well, as
                > the need to be able to create, customized, roll-your-own fonts on the fly.
                > Half the world's writing uses standardized fonts; another half (for shop
                > signs, graffiti, menus, logos and the like) uses roll-your-own fonts
                > custom-built for specific problems.). Throwing away SVG fonts means dooming
                > half the world's expressions to bitmaps.
                >

                Complex shaping is missing from SVG Fonts.

                As for bitmaps only, that's not true either. In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0636.html, https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286 for more information.

                Robert
              • jamesd
                ... I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format? James
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 13, 2013
                  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Longson" wrote:

                  >In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics.>

                  I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format?

                  James
                • Robert Longson
                  The links I provided in the previous post is all I know. Looks like the bug still needs additional documentation judging by the dev-doc-needed marker. Robert.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 13, 2013
                    The links I provided in the previous post is all I know. Looks like the bug still needs additional documentation judging by the dev-doc-needed marker.

                    Robert.

                    --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesd" wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Longson" wrote:
                    >
                    > >In Firefox 18 you can embed SVG glyphs within Opentype fonts. That way you get the complex shaping capability of OpenType together with SVG for the individual graphics.>
                    >
                    > I thought that WOFF was the font Firefox selected for use on the web? How do I embedded SVG fonts into a WOFF format?
                    >
                    > James
                    >
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