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Re: Apple iOS 6 SVG Problems

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  • jamesd
    SVG has been in development since 1999. Apple has 120 Beeellion dollars in cash. Just one billion devoted to programmers salaries would easily have changed the
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
      SVG has been in development since 1999. Apple has 120 Beeellion dollars in cash. Just one billion devoted to programmers salaries would easily have changed the way of the internet by now.

      --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Marty Sullivan <dark3251@...> wrote:


      "I just don't see any evidence that any features of HTML5 are being ignored. Perhaps they are being developed slowly, yes, but that is how it always is with new tech. Do not fear my friend, just be patient."
    • Joe Doll
      I don t see it that way. PNG only lags JPG compression by about 3 times at moderate to good quality. SVG lags JPG by about 1.5 times if the image has good
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
        I don't see it that way. PNG only lags JPG compression by about 3 times
        at moderate to good quality. SVG lags JPG by about 1.5 times if the
        image has good color segmentation. When closely matching shapes are
        group together (aka shape grouping), SVG can use the <def> tag to exceed
        JPG compression. JPG would then lag SVG by about 2 times (but I haven't
        fully tested it). When entropic shaping (e.g. making a shape that is
        nearly a circle a circle) reduces noise even further, JPG lags SVG by 10
        times. After entropic shaping, almost all of the signal is extracted
        from the noise (aka very little noise left), then the data is in
        position for raster to vector conversion. Yes, SVG is vector, but the
        last step provides for something more than a set of lines that are stuck
        together. In other words, SVG has continuous mathematical functions. In
        our tests, it seems that JPG lags this type of SVG by 100 times.

        I do agree that its not about trying to replace other technologies, but
        some technologies are not positioned to have a future. The whole raw
        signal can be stored in PNG, so I see PNG as a permanent technology. I
        do not see what role either JPG or PDF will play when SVG is advanced to
        noise-free continuous mathematical function.

        SVG has a permanent future on the Internet, but more than that, the
        ability to provide high quality data to electronic circuits will improve
        the performance of any electronic circuit that currently relies on
        frequency based signal conditioning which is nearly all circuits. A
        circuit that relies on noise free continuous mathematics for its data,
        will be about 100 times more capable than the way we design electronics
        today (frequency based signal conditioning). This is the inverse of the
        old computer rule, "Garbage in, garbage out".
      • Joe Doll
        Most browsers do well with SVG. SVG support in browsers has improved dramatically over the last 12 months. The key thing is to have and support a standard.
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
          Most browsers do well with SVG. SVG support in browsers has improved
          dramatically over the last 12 months. The key thing is to have and
          support a standard. HTML5 isn't any different that SVG in this regard.
          If compatibility is important, then test the code with the top 4 browsers.

          By the way, we make no attempt to be compatible, but our SVG animations
          seem very consistent in all browsers. That would not have been true last
          year.
        • David Dailey
          Fascinating read, James, thanks. I didn t know Allaire was a person - I just knew it from products like Homesite and ColdFusion that I and many of my students
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 17, 2012
            Fascinating read, James, thanks. I didn't know Allaire was a person - I just
            knew it from products like Homesite and ColdFusion that I and many of my
            students used for a decade. Allaire, the company, was bought by Macromedia.



            I can't help but concur with most of what he says and with his concerns for
            the future of an interoperable web.



            Cheers

            David



            From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of jamesd
            Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 1:11 PM
            To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Apple iOS 6 SVG Problems





            It's not about the cursor, but the desire to segment the web into media
            outlets. Soon, like TV of the fifties, you'll access content from one of a
            handful of proprietary vendors.

            A return to the ABC, NBC and CBS style TV providers.

            Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook?

            Here is an interesting article to contemplate.

            http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/16/device_religious_war/

            James





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Marty Sullivan
            How would you be able to represent anything close to a JPG as a vector graphic? I can understand if it is an image with areas of solid color like a logo (in
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 20, 2012
              How would you be able to represent anything close to a JPG as a vector
              graphic? I can understand if it is an image with areas of solid color like
              a logo (in which case, why would it be a jpeg in the first place?) but how
              is it anywhere near possible to represent a truecolor, hi-res photo as a
              vector graphic that wouldn't be at least 100 times the size of a JPG? The
              only methods I've seen that do this are more lossy than the JPG compression
              itself *and* they are at least 10-20 times as large as a JPG and browsers
              can't even process them fast enough for them to be useful. Please help me
              understand what it is you're talking about.

              On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Joe Doll <Joe.Doll@...>wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > I don't see it that way. PNG only lags JPG compression by about 3 times
              > at moderate to good quality. SVG lags JPG by about 1.5 times if the
              > image has good color segmentation. When closely matching shapes are
              > group together (aka shape grouping), SVG can use the <def> tag to exceed
              > JPG compression. JPG would then lag SVG by about 2 times (but I haven't
              > fully tested it). When entropic shaping (e.g. making a shape that is
              > nearly a circle a circle) reduces noise even further, JPG lags SVG by 10
              > times. After entropic shaping, almost all of the signal is extracted
              > from the noise (aka very little noise left), then the data is in
              > position for raster to vector conversion. Yes, SVG is vector, but the
              > last step provides for something more than a set of lines that are stuck
              > together. In other words, SVG has continuous mathematical functions. In
              > our tests, it seems that JPG lags this type of SVG by 100 times.
              >
              > I do agree that its not about trying to replace other technologies, but
              > some technologies are not positioned to have a future. The whole raw
              > signal can be stored in PNG, so I see PNG as a permanent technology. I
              > do not see what role either JPG or PDF will play when SVG is advanced to
              > noise-free continuous mathematical function.
              >
              > SVG has a permanent future on the Internet, but more than that, the
              > ability to provide high quality data to electronic circuits will improve
              > the performance of any electronic circuit that currently relies on
              > frequency based signal conditioning which is nearly all circuits. A
              > circuit that relies on noise free continuous mathematics for its data,
              > will be about 100 times more capable than the way we design electronics
              > today (frequency based signal conditioning). This is the inverse of the
              > old computer rule, "Garbage in, garbage out".
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joe Doll
              Hi Marty, A picture is data from a sensor. In this case, the sensor is a camera. The sensor is far from perfect. A picture that is supposed to have 3 colors
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 21, 2012
                Hi Marty,

                A picture is data from a sensor. In this case, the sensor is a camera.
                The sensor is far from perfect. A picture that is supposed to have 3
                colors could easily be more than 15,000 colors. The data that has value
                from any picture is call the signal and everything else is called noise.
                For example, if we are trying to see an animal in the forest, the dots
                belonging to the animal contain the data (and a lot of noise), and all
                other dots are called noise. I'm not speaking down to you, I'm just
                giving you some background information.

                Color grouping (aka color segmentation) and shape grouping are noise
                suppression techniques that eliminate most of the noise in an image.
                When the noise is reduced, SVG becomes much more efficient.

                No information (signal) can be extracted from a picture unless two or
                more dots are constellated into a group. In graphics (from machine
                vision I think), this is called a blob.

                It is immaterial whether the dots in a blob have different colors. As
                humans, we group by colors. In other words, if the data is not
                constellated by color, then we can't see it. Each group has one color.
                In SVG, a path is closed around a blob and filled with a single color.

                When a photograph is converted to SVG, everyone does color grouping.
                Most color groupers rely on frequency analysis or averaging techniques.
                These techniques produce file sizes that are about 15 times larger than
                a JPG, and they look much worse. It is all about signal to noise
                extraction. At our company, we use a much more involved color grouping
                process, and for that effort we can color group well enough that our
                files are about 1.5 times larger than SVG and they are somewhat
                comparable to JPG.

                We haven't added shape grouping, yet, but that would reduce the noise
                further which would allow us to produce SVG which has a smaller file
                size than JPG.

                Shape grouping is explained in my previous E-mail. When shape grouping
                uses geographic shapes as the objective (we call this entropic
                compression), then we can do about 10 times better than JPG, and the
                quality is higher than JPG.

                More compression can be obtained by organizing the mathematical
                representation, but I will leave that for later.
              • Marty Sullivan
                What you have described sounds interesting. You must understand I see many, many attempts at raster to vector conversion that are more or less failure and
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 22, 2012
                  What you have described sounds interesting. You must understand I see many,
                  many attempts at raster to vector conversion that are more or less failure
                  and useless. It's still going to be an "I'll believe it when I see it"
                  situation here, but good luck with your project and I hope you produce
                  something viable :)

                  On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Joe Doll <Joe.Doll@...>wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Marty,
                  >
                  > A picture is data from a sensor. In this case, the sensor is a camera.
                  > The sensor is far from perfect. A picture that is supposed to have 3
                  > colors could easily be more than 15,000 colors. The data that has value
                  > from any picture is call the signal and everything else is called noise.
                  > For example, if we are trying to see an animal in the forest, the dots
                  > belonging to the animal contain the data (and a lot of noise), and all
                  > other dots are called noise. I'm not speaking down to you, I'm just
                  > giving you some background information.
                  >
                  > Color grouping (aka color segmentation) and shape grouping are noise
                  > suppression techniques that eliminate most of the noise in an image.
                  > When the noise is reduced, SVG becomes much more efficient.
                  >
                  > No information (signal) can be extracted from a picture unless two or
                  > more dots are constellated into a group. In graphics (from machine
                  > vision I think), this is called a blob.
                  >
                  > It is immaterial whether the dots in a blob have different colors. As
                  > humans, we group by colors. In other words, if the data is not
                  > constellated by color, then we can't see it. Each group has one color.
                  > In SVG, a path is closed around a blob and filled with a single color.
                  >
                  > When a photograph is converted to SVG, everyone does color grouping.
                  > Most color groupers rely on frequency analysis or averaging techniques.
                  > These techniques produce file sizes that are about 15 times larger than
                  > a JPG, and they look much worse. It is all about signal to noise
                  > extraction. At our company, we use a much more involved color grouping
                  > process, and for that effort we can color group well enough that our
                  > files are about 1.5 times larger than SVG and they are somewhat
                  > comparable to JPG.
                  >
                  > We haven't added shape grouping, yet, but that would reduce the noise
                  > further which would allow us to produce SVG which has a smaller file
                  > size than JPG.
                  >
                  > Shape grouping is explained in my previous E-mail. When shape grouping
                  > uses geographic shapes as the objective (we call this entropic
                  > compression), then we can do about 10 times better than JPG, and the
                  > quality is higher than JPG.
                  >
                  > More compression can be obtained by organizing the mathematical
                  > representation, but I will leave that for later.
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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