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Apple iOS 6 SVG Problems

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  • jamesd
    Went to evaluate the iPad mini. Excellent form factor, but crappy OS. Used below links for testing. 1. There is a SVG size bug when using HTML. See:
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 13, 2012
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      Went to evaluate the iPad mini. Excellent form factor, but crappy OS. Used below links for testing.

      1. There is a SVG size bug when using HTML. See:

      http://sites.google.com/site/jcdsvg

      SVG image does not size to 100% width and 100% height.

      2. iOS 6 does not recognize the SVG cursor="pointer" tag and does not fire the jquery onClick event. There is no realization that the buttons are active on click handlers. Hence, nothing happens in iOS, but works fine in other circumstances.

      http://sites.google.com/site/jcdsvg/use.svg

      Example:

      <a xlink:href="javascript:showonlyone('page_2');">

      <g id="data">

      </g>

      </a>

      3. Image only displays correctly if loaded in landscape view. Loaded in portrait mode the image does not reflow when changed to landscape mode.

      Any suggestions on fixes?

      James
    • Marty Sullivan
      Yeah, things aren t there yet for sure. One question though, in terms of the cursor= pointer attribute, I wasn t even aware you could have an actual cursor on
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 14, 2012
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        Yeah, things aren't there yet for sure. One question though, in terms of
        the cursor="pointer" attribute, I wasn't even aware you could have an
        actual cursor on the ipad in the first place. Can you?

        On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 6:17 PM, jamesd <jcdeering1@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Went to evaluate the iPad mini. Excellent form factor, but crappy OS. Used
        > below links for testing.
        >
        > 1. There is a SVG size bug when using HTML. See:
        >
        > http://sites.google.com/site/jcdsvg
        >
        > SVG image does not size to 100% width and 100% height.
        >
        > 2. iOS 6 does not recognize the SVG cursor="pointer" tag and does not fire
        > the jquery onClick event. There is no realization that the buttons are
        > active on click handlers. Hence, nothing happens in iOS, but works fine in
        > other circumstances.
        >
        > http://sites.google.com/site/jcdsvg/use.svg
        >
        > Example:
        >
        > <a xlink:href="javascript:showonlyone('page_2');">
        >
        > <g id="data">
        >
        > </g>
        >
        > </a>
        >
        > 3. Image only displays correctly if loaded in landscape view. Loaded in
        > portrait mode the image does not reflow when changed to landscape mode.
        >
        > Any suggestions on fixes?
        >
        > James
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jamesd
        That is the problem in a nutshell. SVG is ignored for the most part.
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 14, 2012
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          That is the problem in a nutshell. SVG is ignored for the most part.

          --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Marty Sullivan <dark3251@...> wrote:
          >
          > Yeah, things aren't there yet for sure. One question though, in terms of
          > the cursor="pointer" attribute, I wasn't even aware you could have an
          > actual cursor on the ipad in the first place. Can you?
          >
        • Marty Sullivan
          Well, compliance has been steadily growing among all browsers for the past few years, but I don t think the cursor problem is related to SVG, I mean, why would
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 14, 2012
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            Well, compliance has been steadily growing among all browsers for the past
            few years, but I don't think the cursor problem is related to SVG, I mean,
            why would the user have a cursor when a touch screen is his/her only form
            of input?

            On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:45 PM, jamesd <jcdeering1@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > That is the problem in a nutshell. SVG is ignored for the most part.
            >
            >
            > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Marty Sullivan <dark3251@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Yeah, things aren't there yet for sure. One question though, in terms of
            > > the cursor="pointer" attribute, I wasn't even aware you could have an
            > > actual cursor on the ipad in the first place. Can you?
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joe Doll
            Yeah but, SVG is XML, and XML can t be ignored on the web. Yes, they could try to ignore the SVG implementation, but SVG is more or less native to the browser.
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 15, 2012
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              Yeah but, SVG is XML, and XML can't be ignored on the web. Yes, they
              could try to ignore the SVG implementation, but SVG is more or less
              native to the browser.

              In 2 years, SVG will have nearly every advantage over JPG, PDF, and in
              many cases will be preferred over HTML. Why? Because when the noise is
              reduced in an image through color segmentation and shape grouping, the
              SVG looks better and is smaller than JPG. It has multiple pages like PDF
              without as large a security hole. In SVG, all artifacts can be read by a
              search engine, but only text that can be imaged (which isn't good
              enough) can be searched in PDF. The browser can do many more things with
              SVG (e.g., animate photographs or time sounds) than it can with HTML
              because SVG presents the data to the browser in computer code rather
              than random dots.
            • Marty Sullivan
              Where are you guys getting this idea that they are ignoring SVG? I haven t gotten that impression at all. How can you compare SVG and a raster like JPG? They
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
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                Where are you guys getting this idea that they are ignoring SVG? I haven't
                gotten that impression at all. How can you compare SVG and a raster like
                JPG? They are used for completely different things... How are you going to
                make a truecolor hi-res photo using vector graphics that is less than
                100MB? Even 1MB would be too big and far too much for the client to
                process! SVG could possibly be preferred to PNG, but not JPG... If people
                still use PDF now, when technically HTML can do everything that PDF does,
                why would SVG replace it in the future? How are you going to embed video in
                SVG if all browsers don't support the foreignObject tag?

                SVG is going to get popular and will be used often in the future, but it's
                not going to replace any other technology, rather, it will be used in
                addition to those technologies.

                On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Joe Doll <Joe.Doll@...>wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > Yeah but, SVG is XML, and XML can't be ignored on the web. Yes, they
                > could try to ignore the SVG implementation, but SVG is more or less
                > native to the browser.
                >
                > In 2 years, SVG will have nearly every advantage over JPG, PDF, and in
                > many cases will be preferred over HTML. Why? Because when the noise is
                > reduced in an image through color segmentation and shape grouping, the
                > SVG looks better and is smaller than JPG. It has multiple pages like PDF
                > without as large a security hole. In SVG, all artifacts can be read by a
                > search engine, but only text that can be imaged (which isn't good
                > enough) can be searched in PDF. The browser can do many more things with
                > SVG (e.g., animate photographs or time sounds) than it can with HTML
                > because SVG presents the data to the browser in computer code rather
                > than random dots.
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Richard Pearman
                Hi, Does this mean that it s time to start making entirely or mostly SVG websites and forget about warning people that there s an unusual format being used?
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
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                  Hi,

                  Does this mean that it's time to start making entirely or mostly SVG websites and forget about warning people that there's an unusual format being used?

                  Richard Pearman http://www.pixelpalaces.com/
                  The next stage in the evolution of web comics: http://www.onlinecomics.net/pages/details/listing.php?comicID=4415
                  Read my Helium articles: http://www.helium.com/users/212199
                  South Alberta Cactus and succulent society: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20360241008
                  Make money from discussing things: http://www.myLot.com?ref=Graptopetalum

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Joe Doll
                  To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:05 AM
                  Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Apple iOS 6 SVG Problems



                  Yeah but, SVG is XML, and XML can't be ignored on the web. Yes, they
                  could try to ignore the SVG implementation, but SVG is more or less
                  native to the browser.

                  In 2 years, SVG will have nearly every advantage over JPG, PDF, and in
                  many cases will be preferred over HTML. Why? Because when the noise is
                  reduced in an image through color segmentation and shape grouping, the
                  SVG looks better and is smaller than JPG. It has multiple pages like PDF
                  without as large a security hole. In SVG, all artifacts can be read by a
                  search engine, but only text that can be imaged (which isn't good
                  enough) can be searched in PDF. The browser can do many more things with
                  SVG (e.g., animate photographs or time sounds) than it can with HTML
                  because SVG presents the data to the browser in computer code rather
                  than random dots.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Marty Sullivan
                  I would say it is definitely time to start *making* them, not necessarily deploying them. Keep ahead of the crowd and develop your SVG applications and
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
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                    I would say it is definitely time to start *making* them, not necessarily
                    deploying them. Keep ahead of the crowd and develop your SVG applications
                    and graphics now so that when it is mainstream, you will be ready. I am
                    confident that we will be seeing a lot of SVG coming out of the woodwork
                    over the next 1-2 years. As more and more people use it, there will be even
                    more incentive for browsers to improve support.

                    On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Richard Pearman <rpearman@...>wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    > Does this mean that it's time to start making entirely or mostly SVG
                    > websites and forget about warning people that there's an unusual format
                    > being used?
                    >
                    > Richard Pearman http://www.pixelpalaces.com/
                    > The next stage in the evolution of web comics:
                    > http://www.onlinecomics.net/pages/details/listing.php?comicID=4415
                    > Read my Helium articles: http://www.helium.com/users/212199
                    > South Alberta Cactus and succulent society:
                    > http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20360241008
                    > Make money from discussing things: http://www.myLot.com?ref=Graptopetalum
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Joe Doll
                    > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:05 AM
                    > Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Apple iOS 6 SVG Problems
                    >
                    > Yeah but, SVG is XML, and XML can't be ignored on the web. Yes, they
                    > could try to ignore the SVG implementation, but SVG is more or less
                    > native to the browser.
                    >
                    > In 2 years, SVG will have nearly every advantage over JPG, PDF, and in
                    > many cases will be preferred over HTML. Why? Because when the noise is
                    > reduced in an image through color segmentation and shape grouping, the
                    > SVG looks better and is smaller than JPG. It has multiple pages like PDF
                    > without as large a security hole. In SVG, all artifacts can be read by a
                    > search engine, but only text that can be imaged (which isn't good
                    > enough) can be searched in PDF. The browser can do many more things with
                    > SVG (e.g., animate photographs or time sounds) than it can with HTML
                    > because SVG presents the data to the browser in computer code rather
                    > than random dots.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jamesd
                    It s not about the cursor, but the desire to segment the web into media outlets. Soon, like TV of the fifties, you ll access content from one of a handful of
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
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                      It's not about the cursor, but the desire to segment the web into media outlets. Soon, like TV of the fifties, you'll access content from one of a handful of proprietary vendors.

                      A return to the ABC, NBC and CBS style TV providers.

                      Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook?

                      Here is an interesting article to contemplate.

                      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/16/device_religious_war/

                      James
                    • Marty Sullivan
                      I m just very confused at all of this paranoia. My impression is that SVG support has been coming along very steadily and as expected along with all other
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
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                        I'm just very confused at all of this paranoia. My impression is that SVG
                        support has been coming along very steadily and as expected along with all
                        other HTML5 features on both desktop and mobile platforms. Google and Apple
                        both use webkit for their desktop browsers which has arguably some of the
                        best HTML5 support. Microsoft, surprisingly, has done a decent job of
                        support so far in IE9 & 10, although they lack SMIL and quite a few other
                        sought-after components. Facebook is not really relevant because they don't
                        provide a browser. All modern browsers have full support on all basic
                        drawing elements for SVG and all but the most complex filters are
                        functioning well and will soon have hardware acceleration.

                        Beyond SVG, all modern browsers support <video> and <audio> tags as well as
                        the great raster graphics tool, <canvas>. Some form of client side database
                        is available in every browser. The only thing I wish they'd all hurry up on
                        is support for Websockets.

                        I just don't see any evidence that any features of HTML5 are being ignored.
                        Perhaps they are being developed slowly, yes, but that is how it always is
                        with new tech. Do not fear my friend, just be patient.

                        On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 1:11 PM, jamesd <jcdeering1@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > It's not about the cursor, but the desire to segment the web into media
                        > outlets. Soon, like TV of the fifties, you'll access content from one of a
                        > handful of proprietary vendors.
                        >
                        > A return to the ABC, NBC and CBS style TV providers.
                        >
                        > Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook?
                        >
                        > Here is an interesting article to contemplate.
                        >
                        > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/16/device_religious_war/
                        >
                        > James
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jamesd
                        SVG has been in development since 1999. Apple has 120 Beeellion dollars in cash. Just one billion devoted to programmers salaries would easily have changed the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
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                          SVG has been in development since 1999. Apple has 120 Beeellion dollars in cash. Just one billion devoted to programmers salaries would easily have changed the way of the internet by now.

                          --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Marty Sullivan <dark3251@...> wrote:


                          "I just don't see any evidence that any features of HTML5 are being ignored. Perhaps they are being developed slowly, yes, but that is how it always is with new tech. Do not fear my friend, just be patient."
                        • Joe Doll
                          I don t see it that way. PNG only lags JPG compression by about 3 times at moderate to good quality. SVG lags JPG by about 1.5 times if the image has good
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
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                            I don't see it that way. PNG only lags JPG compression by about 3 times
                            at moderate to good quality. SVG lags JPG by about 1.5 times if the
                            image has good color segmentation. When closely matching shapes are
                            group together (aka shape grouping), SVG can use the <def> tag to exceed
                            JPG compression. JPG would then lag SVG by about 2 times (but I haven't
                            fully tested it). When entropic shaping (e.g. making a shape that is
                            nearly a circle a circle) reduces noise even further, JPG lags SVG by 10
                            times. After entropic shaping, almost all of the signal is extracted
                            from the noise (aka very little noise left), then the data is in
                            position for raster to vector conversion. Yes, SVG is vector, but the
                            last step provides for something more than a set of lines that are stuck
                            together. In other words, SVG has continuous mathematical functions. In
                            our tests, it seems that JPG lags this type of SVG by 100 times.

                            I do agree that its not about trying to replace other technologies, but
                            some technologies are not positioned to have a future. The whole raw
                            signal can be stored in PNG, so I see PNG as a permanent technology. I
                            do not see what role either JPG or PDF will play when SVG is advanced to
                            noise-free continuous mathematical function.

                            SVG has a permanent future on the Internet, but more than that, the
                            ability to provide high quality data to electronic circuits will improve
                            the performance of any electronic circuit that currently relies on
                            frequency based signal conditioning which is nearly all circuits. A
                            circuit that relies on noise free continuous mathematics for its data,
                            will be about 100 times more capable than the way we design electronics
                            today (frequency based signal conditioning). This is the inverse of the
                            old computer rule, "Garbage in, garbage out".
                          • Joe Doll
                            Most browsers do well with SVG. SVG support in browsers has improved dramatically over the last 12 months. The key thing is to have and support a standard.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 16, 2012
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                              Most browsers do well with SVG. SVG support in browsers has improved
                              dramatically over the last 12 months. The key thing is to have and
                              support a standard. HTML5 isn't any different that SVG in this regard.
                              If compatibility is important, then test the code with the top 4 browsers.

                              By the way, we make no attempt to be compatible, but our SVG animations
                              seem very consistent in all browsers. That would not have been true last
                              year.
                            • David Dailey
                              Fascinating read, James, thanks. I didn t know Allaire was a person - I just knew it from products like Homesite and ColdFusion that I and many of my students
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 17, 2012
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                                Fascinating read, James, thanks. I didn't know Allaire was a person - I just
                                knew it from products like Homesite and ColdFusion that I and many of my
                                students used for a decade. Allaire, the company, was bought by Macromedia.



                                I can't help but concur with most of what he says and with his concerns for
                                the future of an interoperable web.



                                Cheers

                                David



                                From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
                                On Behalf Of jamesd
                                Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 1:11 PM
                                To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Apple iOS 6 SVG Problems





                                It's not about the cursor, but the desire to segment the web into media
                                outlets. Soon, like TV of the fifties, you'll access content from one of a
                                handful of proprietary vendors.

                                A return to the ABC, NBC and CBS style TV providers.

                                Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook?

                                Here is an interesting article to contemplate.

                                http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/16/device_religious_war/

                                James





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Marty Sullivan
                                How would you be able to represent anything close to a JPG as a vector graphic? I can understand if it is an image with areas of solid color like a logo (in
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 20, 2012
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                                  How would you be able to represent anything close to a JPG as a vector
                                  graphic? I can understand if it is an image with areas of solid color like
                                  a logo (in which case, why would it be a jpeg in the first place?) but how
                                  is it anywhere near possible to represent a truecolor, hi-res photo as a
                                  vector graphic that wouldn't be at least 100 times the size of a JPG? The
                                  only methods I've seen that do this are more lossy than the JPG compression
                                  itself *and* they are at least 10-20 times as large as a JPG and browsers
                                  can't even process them fast enough for them to be useful. Please help me
                                  understand what it is you're talking about.

                                  On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Joe Doll <Joe.Doll@...>wrote:

                                  > **
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I don't see it that way. PNG only lags JPG compression by about 3 times
                                  > at moderate to good quality. SVG lags JPG by about 1.5 times if the
                                  > image has good color segmentation. When closely matching shapes are
                                  > group together (aka shape grouping), SVG can use the <def> tag to exceed
                                  > JPG compression. JPG would then lag SVG by about 2 times (but I haven't
                                  > fully tested it). When entropic shaping (e.g. making a shape that is
                                  > nearly a circle a circle) reduces noise even further, JPG lags SVG by 10
                                  > times. After entropic shaping, almost all of the signal is extracted
                                  > from the noise (aka very little noise left), then the data is in
                                  > position for raster to vector conversion. Yes, SVG is vector, but the
                                  > last step provides for something more than a set of lines that are stuck
                                  > together. In other words, SVG has continuous mathematical functions. In
                                  > our tests, it seems that JPG lags this type of SVG by 100 times.
                                  >
                                  > I do agree that its not about trying to replace other technologies, but
                                  > some technologies are not positioned to have a future. The whole raw
                                  > signal can be stored in PNG, so I see PNG as a permanent technology. I
                                  > do not see what role either JPG or PDF will play when SVG is advanced to
                                  > noise-free continuous mathematical function.
                                  >
                                  > SVG has a permanent future on the Internet, but more than that, the
                                  > ability to provide high quality data to electronic circuits will improve
                                  > the performance of any electronic circuit that currently relies on
                                  > frequency based signal conditioning which is nearly all circuits. A
                                  > circuit that relies on noise free continuous mathematics for its data,
                                  > will be about 100 times more capable than the way we design electronics
                                  > today (frequency based signal conditioning). This is the inverse of the
                                  > old computer rule, "Garbage in, garbage out".
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Joe Doll
                                  Hi Marty, A picture is data from a sensor. In this case, the sensor is a camera. The sensor is far from perfect. A picture that is supposed to have 3 colors
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 21, 2012
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                                    Hi Marty,

                                    A picture is data from a sensor. In this case, the sensor is a camera.
                                    The sensor is far from perfect. A picture that is supposed to have 3
                                    colors could easily be more than 15,000 colors. The data that has value
                                    from any picture is call the signal and everything else is called noise.
                                    For example, if we are trying to see an animal in the forest, the dots
                                    belonging to the animal contain the data (and a lot of noise), and all
                                    other dots are called noise. I'm not speaking down to you, I'm just
                                    giving you some background information.

                                    Color grouping (aka color segmentation) and shape grouping are noise
                                    suppression techniques that eliminate most of the noise in an image.
                                    When the noise is reduced, SVG becomes much more efficient.

                                    No information (signal) can be extracted from a picture unless two or
                                    more dots are constellated into a group. In graphics (from machine
                                    vision I think), this is called a blob.

                                    It is immaterial whether the dots in a blob have different colors. As
                                    humans, we group by colors. In other words, if the data is not
                                    constellated by color, then we can't see it. Each group has one color.
                                    In SVG, a path is closed around a blob and filled with a single color.

                                    When a photograph is converted to SVG, everyone does color grouping.
                                    Most color groupers rely on frequency analysis or averaging techniques.
                                    These techniques produce file sizes that are about 15 times larger than
                                    a JPG, and they look much worse. It is all about signal to noise
                                    extraction. At our company, we use a much more involved color grouping
                                    process, and for that effort we can color group well enough that our
                                    files are about 1.5 times larger than SVG and they are somewhat
                                    comparable to JPG.

                                    We haven't added shape grouping, yet, but that would reduce the noise
                                    further which would allow us to produce SVG which has a smaller file
                                    size than JPG.

                                    Shape grouping is explained in my previous E-mail. When shape grouping
                                    uses geographic shapes as the objective (we call this entropic
                                    compression), then we can do about 10 times better than JPG, and the
                                    quality is higher than JPG.

                                    More compression can be obtained by organizing the mathematical
                                    representation, but I will leave that for later.
                                  • Marty Sullivan
                                    What you have described sounds interesting. You must understand I see many, many attempts at raster to vector conversion that are more or less failure and
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Nov 22, 2012
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                                      What you have described sounds interesting. You must understand I see many,
                                      many attempts at raster to vector conversion that are more or less failure
                                      and useless. It's still going to be an "I'll believe it when I see it"
                                      situation here, but good luck with your project and I hope you produce
                                      something viable :)

                                      On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Joe Doll <Joe.Doll@...>wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Marty,
                                      >
                                      > A picture is data from a sensor. In this case, the sensor is a camera.
                                      > The sensor is far from perfect. A picture that is supposed to have 3
                                      > colors could easily be more than 15,000 colors. The data that has value
                                      > from any picture is call the signal and everything else is called noise.
                                      > For example, if we are trying to see an animal in the forest, the dots
                                      > belonging to the animal contain the data (and a lot of noise), and all
                                      > other dots are called noise. I'm not speaking down to you, I'm just
                                      > giving you some background information.
                                      >
                                      > Color grouping (aka color segmentation) and shape grouping are noise
                                      > suppression techniques that eliminate most of the noise in an image.
                                      > When the noise is reduced, SVG becomes much more efficient.
                                      >
                                      > No information (signal) can be extracted from a picture unless two or
                                      > more dots are constellated into a group. In graphics (from machine
                                      > vision I think), this is called a blob.
                                      >
                                      > It is immaterial whether the dots in a blob have different colors. As
                                      > humans, we group by colors. In other words, if the data is not
                                      > constellated by color, then we can't see it. Each group has one color.
                                      > In SVG, a path is closed around a blob and filled with a single color.
                                      >
                                      > When a photograph is converted to SVG, everyone does color grouping.
                                      > Most color groupers rely on frequency analysis or averaging techniques.
                                      > These techniques produce file sizes that are about 15 times larger than
                                      > a JPG, and they look much worse. It is all about signal to noise
                                      > extraction. At our company, we use a much more involved color grouping
                                      > process, and for that effort we can color group well enough that our
                                      > files are about 1.5 times larger than SVG and they are somewhat
                                      > comparable to JPG.
                                      >
                                      > We haven't added shape grouping, yet, but that would reduce the noise
                                      > further which would allow us to produce SVG which has a smaller file
                                      > size than JPG.
                                      >
                                      > Shape grouping is explained in my previous E-mail. When shape grouping
                                      > uses geographic shapes as the objective (we call this entropic
                                      > compression), then we can do about 10 times better than JPG, and the
                                      > quality is higher than JPG.
                                      >
                                      > More compression can be obtained by organizing the mathematical
                                      > representation, but I will leave that for later.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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