Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [svg-developers] SMIL Use Cases

Expand Messages
  • ddailey
    I have developed an odd sense of anxiety when it comes to discussing use cases with people in the standards community. In the early days of HTML5 discussions
    Message 1 of 31 , May 4, 2010
      I have developed an odd sense of anxiety when it comes to discussing "use cases" with people in the standards community. In the early days of HTML5 discussions I would start to talk about why and what I wanted to be able to do in HTML that I couldn't do (which I thought was a "use case" namely a "case for use"). But inevitably it seemed I was ruled out of order by some team [1] of like-minded individuals who seemed to believe I was there to somehow subvert the entire process. (well, after I learned how off-track it seemed to be, perhaps they were, in retrospect, correct). Anyhow, as you can tell, I am scarred by the experience and a bit hesitant to begin again.

      But I have worked for some years exploring the 47 +/- dimensional space which is SMIL, and it has been my goal to map parts of that space in a way that can be projected into a geometry that makes sense to people. Uses of declarative animation in SVG: do a google search for svg animation. In the 6 or 8 years I have collected data on such searches, the number of hits expanded from 20,000 to 2 million (until Google started tweaking their page rank algorithms, apparently deciding that relevance was more important than raw numbers). From the several hundered links leading out of http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/ and its subdirectories, and in particular the subset collected at http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGOpen2008/edges_of_plausibility.htm there are a few hundred "uses", but not necessarily "use cases." I think the phrase among spec writers takes on a magic as does the term "semantics" which means something different to them than it does in the 406 other branches of human inquiry.

      So that leads me back to not "what has one done with declarative animation?", but rather "what would one do with it and why?"

      Suppose we are streaming huge numbers of photos from the ground: google street view or some real time battle field scenario. Suppose further that we can vectorize those photos locally prior to uplinking to a satellite.Good data compression. Suppose further that we can use the power of the clientside machine (they are getting powerful these days you know?) to map trajectories/3D info and present likely movements based on current deltax deltay data. then rather than sending a stream of 20 frames per second we construct an animateMotion tag to encode the local machine's best guess about the whereabouts, shape and velocity of observed objects. Okay now with 1000 cameras on the ground.... and a satellite up top? Which would you rather have your satellite/ command center have to process: 1000 20 frame per second bitmaps from the cameras, or 1000 path/animate tags? Crunch the data, best as you can locally, I would say.

      Okay, suppose we want to demonstrate traffic moving along a city street grid. The cars have variable velocities, and they do change lanes from time to time. But suppose (as I and Howard Demuth -- of sort=nlogn fame -- proposed to DOE in 1980) that we want to minimize vehicular stops at traffic lights. If no car in the US ever had to stop at a traffic lights we estimated $11G savings in oil consumption in 1980 dollars (based on differences in highway MPG and city MPG -- due largely to cost of accelerating and decelerating). Okay so put a microprocessor in each traffic light (hook the traffic lights together via line-of-sight) and give each one a motion detector. The car doesn't really need to be repeatedly "photographed" to get a good probabilistic sense of where it is headed -- they do usually follow the speed limit and they usually do stay inside their lanes. Declarative animation on a path is what it looks like to me. Occasional ajax-like corrections to adjust the animation paramaters adjusting through the DOM and the traffic lights become smarter. Fewer stops. Less gasoline. Fewer rear end accidents, greater worker satisfaction, increased productivity. etc.

      Suppose I just want to illustrate the traveling salesman problem to a college class. http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/polygons.html Put the little vehicle on the curve and even if the curve gets weird. the car clings to it. even if it becomes a bezier curve and my team of programmers doesn't know how to integrate or differentiate the piecewise cubic bezier.

      Or suppose I want to simulate random movement in a random grid like in http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGOpen2008/tritiles.png and http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/tribraids9.svg

      It may not look practical but my old friend and mentor Stanislaw Ulam certainly said it was. He even got a patent for his ideas!

      Maybe some day I will understand use cases, but it just seems like it is a use case, whenever it is useful and terribly silly to do it any other way!

      cheers
      David

      [1] there were always either 5 of 7 of them -- somehow one was *never* enough when those tackles approached the line of scrimmage -- and they all seemed to know the rules for piling on and I was, after all, a neophyte) Amazing how much support I got from the sidelines though!

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • veiko herne
      Can you be more specific what s wrong with it. It show perfectly in my netbook but does not play SVG animations as SMIL isn t yet implemented in this version
      Message 31 of 31 , May 7, 2010
        Can you be more specific what s wrong with it. It show perfectly in my netbook but does not play SVG animations as SMIL isn t yet implemented in this version of browser by Microsoft.
        What s wrong with porn? Porn and casinos are only way to mae money nowadays after software has been declared free and open source.

        On Fri May 7th, 2010 11:58 AM EEST domenico_strazzullo wrote:

        >
        >
        >Veiko, http://wonderries.mobiblogi.com/articles/Wonderries---animated-stories.html doesn't work properly, plus it shows porno banners.
        >
        >In any case I think Andreas made the ultimate point with "The real power can be exploited if SMIL and script work well together".
        >
        >
        >--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, veiko herne <veiko_h@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Why you forgot my animations at wonderries.mobi ? I did those with SMIL in 2006 believing that SMIL works on mobiles to mae myself little bit money again. Now it s finally works.
        >> Are you still in Paris? I m in Nimes after the winter in Barelona again soon could be in Paris.
        >>
        >> Veiko
        >>
        >> On Wed May 5th, 2010 2:38 PM EEST domenico_strazzullo wrote:
        >>
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >Dear Patrick,
        >> >
        >> >Please, check http://www.dotuscomus.com/svg/demos/ . I hate to advertise but, modestly speaking, some of those are legendary.
        >> >
        >> >Check in particular these that use exclusively SMIL for the animations:
        >> >
        >> >http://www.dotuscomus.com/svg/demos/SCD.svg
        >> >http://www.dotuscomus.com/svg/demos/gallop.svg
        >> >http://www.dotuscomus.com/svg/demos/Volumex.svg (note that the compressor lobes geometry follows technical specifications)
        >> >http://www.dotuscomus.com/svg/demos/ss11.svg
        >> >http://www.dotuscomus.com/svg/demos/dr50.svg
        >> >
        >> >and of course:
        >> >
        >> >http://www.patoleszko.com/
        >> >
        >> >which, to my knowledge, was the first web site made entirely in SVG for a third party. It's mostly SMIL driven, including the menus, videos etc. (Jon Ferraiolo, or someone from his team (?), even said at the time that it had one feature that couldn't be made in Flash, I don't know which one).
        >> >
        >> >The best platforms I suggest are ASV and Opera, give or take a few glitches.
        >> >
        >> >You may not know who I am, which is understandable in a name-conscious environment, but please, take here the opportunity to discover in depth this work which was realized by an accomplished artist, not simply on the grounds of a self justification of that status or title, but because of the axiomatic contribution brought by the characterized humanist approach of those who enjoy that status or title. Moreover, that work was accomplished under the supervision and with the invaluable input of senior Art Director Jayne De Sesa. At the risk of appearing invasive or even obnoxious, I will add that, in order to dissipate the natural hopeless resistance that technicians or engineers sometimes put up against, that same artist effectively released desktop applications for Atari machines written in assembler 68000, in the eighties.
        >> >
        >> >All this, meaning that if you are eager to consecrate the necessary resources and time, and providing you will effectively be able to relax in a similar manner to when you consume art for the greatest benefit of your neurones, you will be able to make the most of this experience as a whole, in that it may provide you with a deeper insight and hindsight as to the connection between technical, artistic and humanist considerations. Please, allow me also to remind you that those have always been â€"empiricallyâ€" one and the same, and that modern neurology is scientifically proving it at this very moment, slowly but surely.
        >> >
        >> >I guess that any SMIL animation could be executed by script, but I also guess that in some cases that could be a cumbersome choice, let alone a nightmare, if at all possible. But more important is the fact that when a technician or artist or artist/technician or technician/artist makes her quintessential choice, in its sense of "ideal" or "ultimate", this choice is and remains unequivocal and probably irreversible â€"the justification of this last sentence would require a much broader debateâ€".
        >> >
        >> >The same artist in question estimates that his movie on schizophrenia, part of which was visioned by some notable members of this list in 2004, would fall in the nightmare category above, and had to hold back its release for obvious reasons of processing power. That movie could help millions of affected children and young persons not disposing of adequate medical follow-up and/or decent family and/or institutional support to have a better chance of post-trauma recovery and, possibly, rehabilitation.
        >> >
        >> >You talk about hardware acceleration. Give me SMIL with hardware acceleration.
        >> >
        >> >Trimming SMIL from SVG means trimming one of its wings.
        >> >
        >> >You may legitimately say: who the f... is this "artist" or who does he think he is. You may know that he is the person who released GEMï, which fatally is encountering resistance. What you may not know is that he is the person who will imminently release a revolutionary js framework dedicated to and using the SVG Library â€"which hopefully will put an end to the everlasting distrust between artists (including designers), and techniciansâ€" and that qualifies him for making the two statements above.
        >> >
        >> >Having had the opportunity to note that you are a very communicative and rather congenial person, I trust that you will not confuse this with arrogance or self-promotion, on my planet there's no room for the former and you don't need the latter. And I also hope that you will consider my attempt to make you aware of other perspectives in relation to SVG, as a discipline, for what it is, a persuasive effort for promoting the implementation of SMIL and nothing else.
        >> >
        >> >Yours sincerely,
        >> >Domenico Strazzullo
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "patrickdengler" <patrickdengler@> wrote:
        >> >>
        >> >> Can folks piont me to real world, on the web, use cases for SMIL. That will help a bunch.
        >> >>
        >> >> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "domenico_strazzullo" <nst@> wrote:
        >> >> >
        >> >> >
        >> >> >
        >> >> > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Charles McCathieNevile" <chaals@> wrote:
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:16:33 +0200, ddailey <ddailey@>
        >> >> > > wrote:
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > > A shiny donkey? Now I want one too.
        >> >> > > >
        >> >> > > > Brief testimonial: I have never been fond of testimonials.
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > Ditto, to be honest.
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > > Longer testimonial:
        >> >> > > > ... The keystoke to sememe ratio is lower using animation, communication
        >> >> > > > is enhanced, and the world is a better place.
        >> >> > > >
        >> >> > > > Not that everyone doesn't know all this already of course, and I realize
        >> >> > > > that phased implementations are always necessary in a world that
        >> >> > > > changes. Other disclaimers may apply.
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > Indeed. One of the things that struck me at SVG Open 2005 (my first public
        >> >> > > event representing Opera) was that everyone else who had done a moderately
        >> >> > > complete SVG implementation congratulated us on the decision to implement
        >> >> > > animation first - as it is hard to bolt on. There seems to be a reason why
        >> >> > > it was included in every version, even the tiny profiles for mobiles of
        >> >> > > last century.
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > Personally, I love it. Simple interactive animation makes simple
        >> >> > > applications trivially easy to write, and simplifies complicated ones
        >> >> > > immensely. Explaining it to non-programmers is easy, which is what makes
        >> >> > > it spread.
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > The only thing I am waiting for is people like the Inkscape folks to pick
        >> >> > > up where Amaya left off on a decent interface for creating animation, so
        >> >> > > the masses don't even need to learn the code... and I guess they are
        >> >> > > currently waiting on Firefox and IE in particular.
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > (You know, Rome *was* built in a day - it's just that the version they had
        >> >> > > then wasn't all that great so they enhanced it... over the next thousand
        >> >> > > years).
        >> >> >
        >> >> > Bloody hell! I hope "SMIL everywhere" will take shorter.
        >> >> >
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > cheers
        >> >> > >
        >> >> > > --
        >> >> > > Charles McCathieNevile Opera Software, Standards Group
        >> >> > > je parle français -- hablo español -- jeg lærer norsk
        >> >> > > http://my.opera.com/chaals Try Opera: http://www.opera.com
        >> >> > >
        >> >> >
        >> >>
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >------------------------------------
        >> >
        >> >-----
        >> >To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >> >-or-
        >> >visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership"
        >> >----Yahoo! Groups Links
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >-----
        >To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >-or-
        >visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership"
        >----Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.