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Re: [svg-developers] overflow="hidden"

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  • Jerrold Maddox
    David Does this do what you want? Jerry
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 31, 2010
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      David

      Does this do what you want?

      Jerry

      <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
      <!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN"
      "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">
      <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="basic"
      xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
      xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" id="svg-root" width="100%"
      height="100%" >

      <defs>

      <symbol id="2756">
      <text x="10" y="20" font-size="17px" fill="#dcb" opacity=".6"
      font-weight="normal"> ❖ </text>
      </symbol>

      <pattern id="pattern1" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="0" y="0"
      width="30" height="30">
      <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
      </pattern>

      <pattern id="pattern2" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="15" y="20"
      width="30" height="30">

      <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
      </pattern>


      </defs>



      <rect fill="#012" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>


      <rect fill="url(#pattern1)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
      <rect fill="url(#pattern2)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"
      opacity=".6"/>


      <rect fill="#ddc" x="0" y="0" width="10%" height="18%"/>

      <text x="37" y="115" font-size="100px" fill="#000" opacity="1">
      ❖</text>




      </svg>



      On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Dailey, David P. <david.dailey@...>wrote:

      >
      >
      > I was interested in changing the default on <pattern overflow="hidden"> to
      > overflow = something else, so that the pattern is not clipped to the
      > rectangle containing the pattern, but in fact dribbles over, but couldn't
      > seem to remember how. Though I am pretty sure I did it before to make
      > triangular tilings, I can't seem to find my examples. Does anyone recall the
      > trick.
      >
      > Thanks
      > David
      >
      > From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
      > svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>] On
      > Behalf Of ddailey
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM
      > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [svg-developers] -- feGaussianBlur standardDeviation = 0
      >
      > The spec (1.1) says:
      > [...]
      > A value of zero disables the effect of the given filter primitive (i.e.,
      > the result is a transparent black image).
      > If the attribute is not specified, then the effect is as if a value of 0
      > were specified.
      > -------------
      >
      > Opera and Firefox both handle this correctly (according to the spec). But
      > it seems to me the spec is a bit too fussy. It is written, I presume, to
      > avoid a problem of dividing by zero in the definition of the blur function:
      >
      > H(x) = exp(-x2/ (2s2)) / sqrt(2* pi*s2)
      >
      > But when you think of it this way: more standarddeviation means more blur.
      > Zero standard deviation should mean no blur.
      > The issue arose when I wanted to use script to append a blur filter onto an
      > object and allow a slider to control the amount of blur. Rather than
      > removing the filter attribute from the DOM I just wanted to change StdDev to
      > zero. Alas, while ASV knew what I wanted to do, Opera and FF followed the
      > spec. I think this attribute is only used in feGaussian blur, but even if it
      > were used in other contexts, I do think that authors will think zero means
      > "no variability", not "turn the image black and make it transparent"
      >
      > Is this the sort of thing that should be raised here, in SVG IG, or with
      > SVG WG, or with a nontrivial subset of the three?
      >
      > cheers
      > David
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jerrold Maddox
      David There a number of these in my presentation in 08. http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/svgopen2008/ Jerry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 31, 2010
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        David

        There a number of these in my presentation in 08.
        http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/svgopen2008/

        Jerry

        On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Jerrold Maddox <jxm22@...> wrote:

        > David
        >
        > Does this do what you want?
        >
        > Jerry
        >
        > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
        > <!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN"
        >
        > "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">
        > <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="basic" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" id="svg-root" width="100%" height="100%" >
        >
        >
        > <defs>
        >
        > <symbol id="2756">
        > <text x="10" y="20" font-size="17px" fill="#dcb" opacity=".6" font-weight="normal"> ❖ </text>
        >
        > </symbol>
        >
        > <pattern id="pattern1" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="0" y="0"
        > width="30" height="30">
        > <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
        >
        > </pattern>
        >
        > <pattern id="pattern2" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="15" y="20"
        > width="30" height="30">
        >
        > <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
        > </pattern>
        >
        >
        > </defs>
        >
        >
        >
        > <rect fill="#012" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
        >
        >
        > <rect fill="url(#pattern1)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
        >
        > <rect fill="url(#pattern2)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%" opacity=".6"/>
        >
        >
        >
        > <rect fill="#ddc" x="0" y="0" width="10%" height="18%"/>
        >
        > <text x="37" y="115" font-size="100px" fill="#000" opacity="1"> ❖</text>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > </svg>
        >
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Dailey, David P. <david.dailey@...>wrote:
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> I was interested in changing the default on <pattern overflow="hidden"> to
        >> overflow = something else, so that the pattern is not clipped to the
        >> rectangle containing the pattern, but in fact dribbles over, but couldn't
        >> seem to remember how. Though I am pretty sure I did it before to make
        >> triangular tilings, I can't seem to find my examples. Does anyone recall the
        >> trick.
        >>
        >> Thanks
        >> David
        >>
        >> From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
        >> svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>] On
        >> Behalf Of ddailey
        >> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM
        >> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>
        >> Subject: [svg-developers] -- feGaussianBlur standardDeviation = 0
        >>
        >> The spec (1.1) says:
        >> [...]
        >> A value of zero disables the effect of the given filter primitive (i.e.,
        >> the result is a transparent black image).
        >> If the attribute is not specified, then the effect is as if a value of 0
        >> were specified.
        >> -------------
        >>
        >> Opera and Firefox both handle this correctly (according to the spec). But
        >> it seems to me the spec is a bit too fussy. It is written, I presume, to
        >> avoid a problem of dividing by zero in the definition of the blur function:
        >>
        >> H(x) = exp(-x2/ (2s2)) / sqrt(2* pi*s2)
        >>
        >> But when you think of it this way: more standarddeviation means more blur.
        >> Zero standard deviation should mean no blur.
        >> The issue arose when I wanted to use script to append a blur filter onto
        >> an object and allow a slider to control the amount of blur. Rather than
        >> removing the filter attribute from the DOM I just wanted to change StdDev to
        >> zero. Alas, while ASV knew what I wanted to do, Opera and FF followed the
        >> spec. I think this attribute is only used in feGaussian blur, but even if it
        >> were used in other contexts, I do think that authors will think zero means
        >> "no variability", not "turn the image black and make it transparent"
        >>
        >> Is this the sort of thing that should be raised here, in SVG IG, or with
        >> SVG WG, or with a nontrivial subset of the three?
        >>
        >> cheers
        >> David
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ddailey
        Hi Jerry, I don t think that s quite what I had in mind (though I love the pattern). What I had in mind was more like when the content of the pattern tag is
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 31, 2010
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          Hi Jerry,

          I don't think that's quite what I had in mind (though I love the pattern). What I had in mind was more like when the content of the pattern tag is larger than the pattern space -- more like in the following adaptation of what you sent, which though I like it, when the A's become overlarge they are clipped to the pattern space rather than overflowing it. For my purposes (using blur on the objects in the pattern space, I'd love to have their content overflow into the next cell of the pattern rather than being clipped. BTW, it would be fun to add a little script to the animation below to have it walk through the letters of the alphabet (and or other character sets as well!)

          best
          David

          <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="basic"
          xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
          xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" id="svg-root" width="100%"
          height="100%" >

          <defs>


          <text x="5" y="25" font-size="48" fill="#dcb" opacity=".6" id="2756"
          font-weight="normal"><animate attributeName="y" dur="3s" values="0; 30; 0"
          repeatCount="indefinite"/>
          <animate attributeName="font-size" dur="5s" values="12; 60; 12"
          repeatCount="indefinite"/>
          A</text>


          <pattern id="pattern1" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="0" y="0"
          width="30" height="30">
          <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
          </pattern>

          <pattern id="pattern2" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="15" y="20"
          width="30" height="30">

          <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
          </pattern>

          </defs>

          <rect fill="#012" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>


          <rect fill="url(#pattern1)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
          <rect fill="url(#pattern2)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"
          opacity=".6"/>



          </svg>


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Jerrold Maddox
          To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:28 PM
          Subject: Re: [svg-developers] <pattern> overflow="hidden"



          David

          Does this do what you want?

          Jerry

          <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
          <!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN"
          "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">
          <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="basic"
          xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
          xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" id="svg-root" width="100%"
          height="100%" >

          <defs>

          <symbol id="2756">
          <text x="10" y="20" font-size="17px" fill="#dcb" opacity=".6"
          font-weight="normal"> ❖ </text>
          </symbol>

          <pattern id="pattern1" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="0" y="0"
          width="30" height="30">
          <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
          </pattern>

          <pattern id="pattern2" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="15" y="20"
          width="30" height="30">

          <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
          </pattern>

          </defs>



          <rect fill="#012" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>

          <rect fill="url(#pattern1)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
          <rect fill="url(#pattern2)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"
          opacity=".6"/>


          <rect fill="#ddc" x="0" y="0" width="10%" height="18%"/>

          <text x="37" y="115" font-size="100px" fill="#000" opacity="1">
          ❖</text>



          </svg>

          On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Dailey, David P. <david.dailey@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > I was interested in changing the default on <pattern overflow="hidden"> to
          > overflow = something else, so that the pattern is not clipped to the
          > rectangle containing the pattern, but in fact dribbles over, but couldn't
          > seem to remember how. Though I am pretty sure I did it before to make
          > triangular tilings, I can't seem to find my examples. Does anyone recall the
          > trick.
          >
          > Thanks
          > David
          >
          > From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
          > svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>] On
          > Behalf Of ddailey
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM
          > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: [svg-developers] -- feGaussianBlur standardDeviation = 0
          >
          > The spec (1.1) says:
          > [...]
          > A value of zero disables the effect of the given filter primitive (i.e.,
          > the result is a transparent black image).
          > If the attribute is not specified, then the effect is as if a value of 0
          > were specified.
          > -------------
          >
          > Opera and Firefox both handle this correctly (according to the spec). But
          > it seems to me the spec is a bit too fussy. It is written, I presume, to
          > avoid a problem of dividing by zero in the definition of the blur function:
          >
          > H(x) = exp(-x2/ (2s2)) / sqrt(2* pi*s2)
          >
          > But when you think of it this way: more standarddeviation means more blur.
          > Zero standard deviation should mean no blur.
          > The issue arose when I wanted to use script to append a blur filter onto an
          > object and allow a slider to control the amount of blur. Rather than
          > removing the filter attribute from the DOM I just wanted to change StdDev to
          > zero. Alas, while ASV knew what I wanted to do, Opera and FF followed the
          > spec. I think this attribute is only used in feGaussian blur, but even if it
          > were used in other contexts, I do think that authors will think zero means
          > "no variability", not "turn the image black and make it transparent"
          >
          > Is this the sort of thing that should be raised here, in SVG IG, or with
          > SVG WG, or with a nontrivial subset of the three?
          >
          > cheers
          > David
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ddailey
          After thinking about your message a bit more Jerry, I figured out what you were saying, I think: namely that by overlaying a duplicate but offset version of
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 31, 2010
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            After thinking about your message a bit more Jerry, I figured out what you were saying, I think: namely that by overlaying a duplicate but offset version of the pattern you can achieve the sort of overflow I had in mind.

            I added in the little script I was talking about, and got it working. It is rather fun.. Then I noticed that your code, and the amended version below, only works in Firefox and IE/ASV, but is not even loading the pattern in Opera, Chrome or Safari. Am not sure why but maybe someone can explain. Of course the SMIL doesn't work in Firefox, but at least it loads the pattern with just a letter in the pattern space.


            cheers
            David


            <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="basic"
            xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
            xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" id="svg-root" width="100%"
            height="100%" onload="startup(evt)">
            <script><![CDATA[

            function startup(){
            Q=document.getElementById("Q")
            Q.beginElement()
            }
            i=66

            function rebirth(evt){
            var TQ=document.getElementById("2756")
            TQ.firstChild.nodeValue=String.fromCharCode(i++)
            Q.beginElement()
            }
            //]]>
            </script>

            <defs>

            <text x="5" y="25" font-size="48" fill="#dcb" opacity=".6" id="2756"
            font-weight="normal">A<animate attributeName="y" dur="2s" values="0; 30; 0"
            repeatCount="indefinite"/><animate id="Q" attributeName="font-size" dur="2s" values="60; 12"
            repeatCount="1" begin="indefinite" onend="rebirth(evt)"/></text>


            <pattern id="pattern1" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="0" y="0"
            width="30" height="30">
            <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
            </pattern>

            <pattern id="pattern2" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="15" y="20"
            width="30" height="30">
            <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
            </pattern>

            </defs>
            <rect fill="#012" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
            <rect fill="url(#pattern1)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
            <rect fill="url(#pattern2)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"
            opacity=".6"/>





            </svg>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jerrold Maddox
            To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:32 PM
            Subject: Re: [svg-developers] <pattern> overflow="hidden"



            David

            There a number of these in my presentation in 08.
            http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/svgopen2008/

            Jerry

            On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Jerrold Maddox <jxm22@...> wrote:

            > David
            >
            > Does this do what you want?
            >
            > Jerry
            >
            > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
            > <!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN"
            >
            > "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">
            > <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="basic" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" id="svg-root" width="100%" height="100%" >
            >
            >
            > <defs>
            >
            > <symbol id="2756">
            > <text x="10" y="20" font-size="17px" fill="#dcb" opacity=".6" font-weight="normal"> ❖ </text>
            >
            > </symbol>
            >
            > <pattern id="pattern1" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="0" y="0"
            > width="30" height="30">
            > <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
            >
            > </pattern>
            >
            > <pattern id="pattern2" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="15" y="20"
            > width="30" height="30">
            >
            > <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
            > </pattern>
            >
            >
            > </defs>
            >
            >
            >
            > <rect fill="#012" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
            >
            >
            > <rect fill="url(#pattern1)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
            >
            > <rect fill="url(#pattern2)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%" opacity=".6"/>
            >
            >
            >
            > <rect fill="#ddc" x="0" y="0" width="10%" height="18%"/>
            >
            > <text x="37" y="115" font-size="100px" fill="#000" opacity="1"> ❖</text>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > </svg>
            >
            >
            >
            > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Dailey, David P. <david.dailey@...>wrote:
            >
            >>
            >>
            >> I was interested in changing the default on <pattern overflow="hidden"> to
            >> overflow = something else, so that the pattern is not clipped to the
            >> rectangle containing the pattern, but in fact dribbles over, but couldn't
            >> seem to remember how. Though I am pretty sure I did it before to make
            >> triangular tilings, I can't seem to find my examples. Does anyone recall the
            >> trick.
            >>
            >> Thanks
            >> David
            >>
            >> From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
            >> svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>] On
            >> Behalf Of ddailey
            >> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM
            >> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>
            >> Subject: [svg-developers] -- feGaussianBlur standardDeviation = 0
            >>
            >> The spec (1.1) says:
            >> [...]
            >> A value of zero disables the effect of the given filter primitive (i.e.,
            >> the result is a transparent black image).
            >> If the attribute is not specified, then the effect is as if a value of 0
            >> were specified.
            >> -------------
            >>
            >> Opera and Firefox both handle this correctly (according to the spec). But
            >> it seems to me the spec is a bit too fussy. It is written, I presume, to
            >> avoid a problem of dividing by zero in the definition of the blur function:
            >>
            >> H(x) = exp(-x2/ (2s2)) / sqrt(2* pi*s2)
            >>
            >> But when you think of it this way: more standarddeviation means more blur.
            >> Zero standard deviation should mean no blur.
            >> The issue arose when I wanted to use script to append a blur filter onto
            >> an object and allow a slider to control the amount of blur. Rather than
            >> removing the filter attribute from the DOM I just wanted to change StdDev to
            >> zero. Alas, while ASV knew what I wanted to do, Opera and FF followed the
            >> spec. I think this attribute is only used in feGaussian blur, but even if it
            >> were used in other contexts, I do think that authors will think zero means
            >> "no variability", not "turn the image black and make it transparent"
            >>
            >> Is this the sort of thing that should be raised here, in SVG IG, or with
            >> SVG WG, or with a nontrivial subset of the three?
            >>
            >> cheers
            >> David
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jerrold Maddox
            David Thanks - you may have noticed my note on the 08 presentation about the lack of support for patterns (and text flow). That is still the case, sorry to
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 1 5:16 AM
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              David

              Thanks - you may have noticed my note on the 08 presentation about the lack
              of support for patterns (and text flow).
              That is still the case, sorry to say.

              Does any one know where support is for patterns (and SMIL and text flow)
              stands now with the various browsers?

              And, while we are at it, the very different support for font-size in Opera.
              Look at the heading of this file in Opera, Firefox and Safari.
              http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/svgopen2008/gentiumgreek.svg

              Jerry

              On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:19 PM, ddailey <ddailey@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > After thinking about your message a bit more Jerry, I figured out what you
              > were saying, I think: namely that by overlaying a duplicate but offset
              > version of the pattern you can achieve the sort of overflow I had in mind.
              >
              > I added in the little script I was talking about, and got it working. It is
              > rather fun.. Then I noticed that your code, and the amended version below,
              > only works in Firefox and IE/ASV, but is not even loading the pattern in
              > Opera, Chrome or Safari. Am not sure why but maybe someone can explain. Of
              > course the SMIL doesn't work in Firefox, but at least it loads the pattern
              > with just a letter in the pattern space.
              >
              > cheers
              > David
              >
              >
              > <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="basic"
              > xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
              > xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" id="svg-root" width="100%"
              > height="100%" onload="startup(evt)">
              > <script><![CDATA[
              >
              > function startup(){
              > Q=document.getElementById("Q")
              > Q.beginElement()
              > }
              > i=66
              >
              > function rebirth(evt){
              > var TQ=document.getElementById("2756")
              > TQ.firstChild.nodeValue=String.fromCharCode(i++)
              > Q.beginElement()
              > }
              > //]]>
              > </script>
              >
              >
              > <defs>
              >
              > <text x="5" y="25" font-size="48" fill="#dcb" opacity=".6" id="2756"
              > font-weight="normal">A<animate attributeName="y" dur="2s" values="0; 30; 0"
              >
              > repeatCount="indefinite"/><animate id="Q" attributeName="font-size"
              > dur="2s" values="60; 12"
              > repeatCount="1" begin="indefinite" onend="rebirth(evt)"/></text>
              >
              >
              > <pattern id="pattern1" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="0" y="0"
              > width="30" height="30">
              > <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
              > </pattern>
              >
              > <pattern id="pattern2" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="15" y="20"
              > width="30" height="30">
              > <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
              > </pattern>
              >
              > </defs>
              > <rect fill="#012" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
              > <rect fill="url(#pattern1)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
              > <rect fill="url(#pattern2)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"
              > opacity=".6"/>
              >
              >
              > </svg>
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Jerrold Maddox
              > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:32 PM
              > Subject: Re: [svg-developers] <pattern> overflow="hidden"
              >
              > David
              >
              > There a number of these in my presentation in 08.
              > http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/svgopen2008/
              >
              > Jerry
              >
              > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Jerrold Maddox <jxm22@...<jxm22%40psu.edu>>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > David
              > >
              > > Does this do what you want?
              > >
              > > Jerry
              > >
              > > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
              > > <!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN"
              > >
              > > "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">
              > > <svg version="1.1" baseProfile="basic" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
              > xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" id="svg-root" width="100%"
              > height="100%" >
              > >
              > >
              > > <defs>
              > >
              > > <symbol id="2756">
              > > <text x="10" y="20" font-size="17px" fill="#dcb" opacity=".6"
              > font-weight="normal"> ❖ </text>
              > >
              > > </symbol>
              > >
              > > <pattern id="pattern1" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="0" y="0"
              > > width="30" height="30">
              > > <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
              > >
              > > </pattern>
              > >
              > > <pattern id="pattern2" patternUnits="userSpaceOnUse" x="15" y="20"
              > > width="30" height="30">
              > >
              > > <use xlink:href="#2756"/>
              > > </pattern>
              > >
              > >
              > > </defs>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > <rect fill="#012" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
              > >
              > >
              > > <rect fill="url(#pattern1)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"/>
              > >
              > > <rect fill="url(#pattern2)" x="0" y="0" width="100%" height="100%"
              > opacity=".6"/>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > <rect fill="#ddc" x="0" y="0" width="10%" height="18%"/>
              > >
              > > <text x="37" y="115" font-size="100px" fill="#000" opacity="1">
              > ❖</text>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > </svg>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Dailey, David P. <david.dailey@...<david.dailey%40sru.edu>
              > >wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> I was interested in changing the default on <pattern overflow="hidden">
              > to
              > >> overflow = something else, so that the pattern is not clipped to the
              > >> rectangle containing the pattern, but in fact dribbles over, but
              > couldn't
              > >> seem to remember how. Though I am pretty sure I did it before to make
              > >> triangular tilings, I can't seem to find my examples. Does anyone recall
              > the
              > >> trick.
              > >>
              > >> Thanks
              > >> David
              > >>
              > >> From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com><svg-developers%
              > 40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
              > >> svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com><svg-developers%
              > 40yahoogroups.com>] On
              >
              > >> Behalf Of ddailey
              > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:56 PM
              > >> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%40yahoogroups.com><svg-developers%
              > 40yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > >> Subject: [svg-developers] -- feGaussianBlur standardDeviation = 0
              > >>
              > >> The spec (1.1) says:
              > >> [...]
              > >> A value of zero disables the effect of the given filter primitive (i.e.,
              > >> the result is a transparent black image).
              > >> If the attribute is not specified, then the effect is as if a value of 0
              > >> were specified.
              > >> -------------
              > >>
              > >> Opera and Firefox both handle this correctly (according to the spec).
              > But
              > >> it seems to me the spec is a bit too fussy. It is written, I presume, to
              > >> avoid a problem of dividing by zero in the definition of the blur
              > function:
              > >>
              > >> H(x) = exp(-x2/ (2s2)) / sqrt(2* pi*s2)
              > >>
              > >> But when you think of it this way: more standarddeviation means more
              > blur.
              > >> Zero standard deviation should mean no blur.
              > >> The issue arose when I wanted to use script to append a blur filter onto
              > >> an object and allow a slider to control the amount of blur. Rather than
              > >> removing the filter attribute from the DOM I just wanted to change
              > StdDev to
              > >> zero. Alas, while ASV knew what I wanted to do, Opera and FF followed
              > the
              > >> spec. I think this attribute is only used in feGaussian blur, but even
              > if it
              > >> were used in other contexts, I do think that authors will think zero
              > means
              > >> "no variability", not "turn the image black and make it transparent"
              > >>
              > >> Is this the sort of thing that should be raised here, in SVG IG, or with
              > >> SVG WG, or with a nontrivial subset of the three?
              > >>
              > >> cheers
              > >> David
              > >>
              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>
              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Erik Dahlstrom
              On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:16:31 +0200, Jerrold Maddox wrote: ... Thanks, reported CORE-28927 for the font-size issue. It s possible to workaround
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 1 7:10 AM
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                On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:16:31 +0200, Jerrold Maddox <jxm22@...> wrote:

                ...
                > And, while we are at it, the very different support for font-size in
                > Opera.
                > Look at the heading of this file in Opera, Firefox and Safari.
                > http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxm22/svgopen2008/gentiumgreek.svg

                Thanks, reported CORE-28927 for the font-size issue.

                It's possible to workaround that bug by using the 'font-size' attribute
                instead of 'style'.

                Cheers
                /Erik

                --
                Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
                Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
                Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
              • Cameron Laird
                On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 08:16:31AM -0400, Jerrold Maddox wrote: . . . ... . . . It strikes me that is the
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 1 3:43 PM
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                  On Thu, Apr 01, 2010 at 08:16:31AM -0400, Jerrold Maddox wrote:
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  > Does any one know where support is for patterns (and SMIL and text flow)
                  > stands now with the various browsers?
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  It strikes me that <URL: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/ >
                  is the natural place to keep such information. Unless someone says,
                  "no, look at YYYYY", I'm inclined to open a new page in the Wiki on
                  the subject of "browser support for patterns", and/or similar.
                • Doug Schepers
                  Hi, David- ... Interestingly, I ran into this very issue this past weekend. I agree with you... the effects of values should be intuitive, especially when
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 1 4:41 PM
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                    Hi, David-

                    ddailey wrote (on 3/30/10 4:56 PM):
                    > The spec (1.1) says: [...] A value of zero disables the effect of the
                    > given filter primitive (i.e., the result is a transparent black
                    > image). If the attribute is not specified, then the effect is as if a
                    > value of 0 were specified. -------------
                    >
                    > Opera and Firefox both handle this correctly (according to the spec).
                    > But it seems to me the spec is a bit too fussy. It is written, I
                    > presume, to avoid a problem of dividing by zero in the definition of
                    > the blur function:
                    >
                    > H(x) = exp(-x2/ (2s2)) / sqrt(2* pi*s2)
                    >
                    > But when you think of it this way: more standarddeviation means more
                    > blur. Zero standard deviation should mean no blur. The issue arose
                    > when I wanted to use script to append a blur filter onto an object
                    > and allow a slider to control the amount of blur. Rather than
                    > removing the filter attribute from the DOM I just wanted to change
                    > StdDev to zero. Alas, while ASV knew what I wanted to do, Opera and
                    > FF followed the spec. I think this attribute is only used in
                    > feGaussian blur, but even if it were used in other contexts, I do
                    > think that authors will think zero means "no variability", not "turn
                    > the image black and make it transparent"
                    >
                    > Is this the sort of thing that should be raised here, in SVG IG, or
                    > with SVG WG, or with a nontrivial subset of the three?

                    Interestingly, I ran into this very issue this past weekend. I agree
                    with you... the effects of values should be intuitive, especially when
                    being iterated though via script (this is why I think arc segments
                    should still render when the start and end points are the same).

                    Illustrator, whence come the filters, also agrees with you, though
                    Inkscape follows the SVG spec. I think this is something that should be
                    changed, since there are differences in implementations. If you
                    wouldn't mind resending your message to www-svg, I'll remember to raise
                    it in discussion with the SVG WG.

                    Regards-
                    -Doug
                  • Doug Schepers
                    Hi, David- FYI, I ve entered this into our SVG WG issue tracker: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2317 Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 2 9:44 AM
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                      Hi, David-

                      FYI, I've entered this into our SVG WG issue tracker:

                      http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2317

                      Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

                      Regards-
                      -Doug

                      Doug Schepers wrote (on 4/1/10 7:41 PM):
                      > Hi, David-
                      >
                      > ddailey wrote (on 3/30/10 4:56 PM):
                      >> The spec (1.1) says: [...] A value of zero disables the effect of the
                      >> given filter primitive (i.e., the result is a transparent black
                      >> image). If the attribute is not specified, then the effect is as if a
                      >> value of 0 were specified. -------------
                      >>
                      >> Opera and Firefox both handle this correctly (according to the spec).
                      >> But it seems to me the spec is a bit too fussy. It is written, I
                      >> presume, to avoid a problem of dividing by zero in the definition of
                      >> the blur function:
                      >>
                      >> H(x) = exp(-x2/ (2s2)) / sqrt(2* pi*s2)
                      >>
                      >> But when you think of it this way: more standarddeviation means more
                      >> blur. Zero standard deviation should mean no blur. The issue arose
                      >> when I wanted to use script to append a blur filter onto an object
                      >> and allow a slider to control the amount of blur. Rather than
                      >> removing the filter attribute from the DOM I just wanted to change
                      >> StdDev to zero. Alas, while ASV knew what I wanted to do, Opera and
                      >> FF followed the spec. I think this attribute is only used in
                      >> feGaussian blur, but even if it were used in other contexts, I do
                      >> think that authors will think zero means "no variability", not "turn
                      >> the image black and make it transparent"
                      >>
                      >> Is this the sort of thing that should be raised here, in SVG IG, or
                      >> with SVG WG, or with a nontrivial subset of the three?
                      >
                      > Interestingly, I ran into this very issue this past weekend. I agree
                      > with you... the effects of values should be intuitive, especially when
                      > being iterated though via script (this is why I think arc segments
                      > should still render when the start and end points are the same).
                      >
                      > Illustrator, whence come the filters, also agrees with you, though
                      > Inkscape follows the SVG spec. I think this is something that should be
                      > changed, since there are differences in implementations. If you
                      > wouldn't mind resending your message to www-svg, I'll remember to raise
                      > it in discussion with the SVG WG.
                      >
                      > Regards-
                      > -Doug
                    • ddailey
                      Thanks Doug! It isn t a huge issue of course, since one can just plugin in a value of .00001 and get almost the same result. One can also, I think, use the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 2 1:30 PM
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                        Thanks Doug!

                        It isn't a huge issue of course, since one can just plugin in a value of .00001 and get almost the same result. One can also, I think, use the same formula for H(x) with a limit as s --> 0 and end up with "zero blur," so it could have both a mathematical and an intuitive basis, if that were to matter.

                        cheers
                        David
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Doug Schepers
                        To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                        Cc: ddailey
                        Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 12:44 PM
                        Subject: Re: [svg-developers] -- feGaussianBlur standardDeviation = 0



                        Hi, David-

                        FYI, I've entered this into our SVG WG issue tracker:

                        http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2317

                        Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

                        Regards-
                        -Doug

                        Doug Schepers wrote (on 4/1/10 7:41 PM):
                        > Hi, David-
                        >
                        > ddailey wrote (on 3/30/10 4:56 PM):
                        >> The spec (1.1) says: [...] A value of zero disables the effect of the
                        >> given filter primitive (i.e., the result is a transparent black
                        >> image). If the attribute is not specified, then the effect is as if a
                        >> value of 0 were specified. -------------
                        >>
                        >> Opera and Firefox both handle this correctly (according to the spec).
                        >> But it seems to me the spec is a bit too fussy. It is written, I
                        >> presume, to avoid a problem of dividing by zero in the definition of
                        >> the blur function:
                        >>
                        >> H(x) = exp(-x2/ (2s2)) / sqrt(2* pi*s2)
                        >>
                        >> But when you think of it this way: more standarddeviation means more
                        >> blur. Zero standard deviation should mean no blur. The issue arose
                        >> when I wanted to use script to append a blur filter onto an object
                        >> and allow a slider to control the amount of blur. Rather than
                        >> removing the filter attribute from the DOM I just wanted to change
                        >> StdDev to zero. Alas, while ASV knew what I wanted to do, Opera and
                        >> FF followed the spec. I think this attribute is only used in
                        >> feGaussian blur, but even if it were used in other contexts, I do
                        >> think that authors will think zero means "no variability", not "turn
                        >> the image black and make it transparent"
                        >>
                        >> Is this the sort of thing that should be raised here, in SVG IG, or
                        >> with SVG WG, or with a nontrivial subset of the three?
                        >
                        > Interestingly, I ran into this very issue this past weekend. I agree
                        > with you... the effects of values should be intuitive, especially when
                        > being iterated though via script (this is why I think arc segments
                        > should still render when the start and end points are the same).
                        >
                        > Illustrator, whence come the filters, also agrees with you, though
                        > Inkscape follows the SVG spec. I think this is something that should be
                        > changed, since there are differences in implementations. If you
                        > wouldn't mind resending your message to www-svg, I'll remember to raise
                        > it in discussion with the SVG WG.
                        >
                        > Regards-
                        > -Doug




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