Re: Palm Pre (WebOS) supporting SVG?
- Veiko having been an awarded finalist on word championship of programming, I have no reason to doubt of his gifts as a coder. On one side I see that, and on the other I see so many corporations still selling bugs and nightmare software (software developed by huge squads of coders and discredited and abandoned after only three years and many billions profit, usually with a life cycle shorter than the development time).
I also see, like anyone else, an ever growing number of people in the street, or simply unemployed, among which programmers, among which some very talented.
When I put these things together and compare I say, there's a big rat underneath. They tell me that Saint Google, Saint Boeing, Saint Toyota, Saint Gobain (;)), Holy Saints Bank&Finance, Saint Total and Saint BP have nothing to do with it, it's just a fatality. The system and its practices are sound. No, actually they (governments and committees) say the system revealed its weaknesses but for some reason it's better to save it while they get a new model for us. In the meantime the system is very good for saving their own jobs and their chunks, together with the despotic privileges of those who have them. I just have one problem with that, they already said that hundreds of years ago. In some places they ended up with their heads rolling. This is history, not opinions.
Veiko denounces coding inefficiencies and claims he can fix the Holy Android Webkit thing. Saint Google is the legal entity representing Holy Android (please contradict if I'm wrong). Saint Google is to be held responsible for the strategic and other choices for all its Sacred Dependencies. So Saint Google could give it a try with Veiko, worse for worse they loose three months equivalent of salary, big deal. When Saint Opera (that's a good saint) gave Erik a chance, so to speak, they got the whole thing up and running in no time, Erik had done the greatest part of it for his thesis! Sure, it's not perfect yet, but it's complete and now it seems like it's been there since ever. Not to mention the mobile versions. When the senior Saint Adobe SVG team developed ASV, it allowed very quickly the programmers to kick off. ASV has some flaws, but curiously the team didn't get a chance of fixing those flaws, instead it was first put on idle then dissolved. Everyone knows the circumstances and the consequences of that unfortunate choice.
--- In email@example.com, veiko herne <veiko_h@...> wrote:
> If you would see my situation living with my backbag currently in Barcelona without any income, you would be pissed of as me because:
> 1. Asking money from a people in the street you have much better conversion rate with higher amounts (3-5% of persons passing me will give me at least 1 EUR) than Google Adsense clicks (0.1% with few cents in earnings).
> 2. In 2006 I belived that producing media like animations for mobile devices will be good idea to earn living and made a choice to use SVG technology more widely distributed on mobile devices than Flash for it. Now it's 2009 and we haven't got those clips work on other models than those having Ikivo's drivers inside where it worked on first place.
> 3. Sure, being once a awarded finalist on word championship of programming where we had to produce a complex working solution from "constantly changing" specifications within 48 hours, sure I'm asking from the Society "Who are those WebKIt programmers and who have hired them to write SVG drivers for Nokia, Google and Apple if they can't get something work in four years???"
> I would be more than happy to get myself from Barcelona beach doing nothing and put those drivers to work if somebody pays me something to live on that I could concentrate myself to program code again.
> --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Domenico Strazzullo <nst@...> wrote:
> > From: Domenico Strazzullo <nst@...>
> > Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Palm Pre (WebOS) supporting SVG?
> > To: firstname.lastname@example.org
> > Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 7:39 PM
> > Veiko,
> > I'm sensitive to your preoccupations, although your posts
> > do have some contradictions. But there again, your
> > statements and their contradictions are both true, as well
> > as all that Jeff and Jake say. So this raises a complex
> > question, where you're pulling in some arguments of social
> > nature. It won't certainly be me saying those arguments are
> > OT and I hope nobody will or think they are, as, in fact,
> > those arguments are THE topic.
> > I just wish that all these good propositions could one day
> > not just fade out for lack of power, but concretize in the
> > form of active groups that would possibly exert, or at least
> > try to, pressure on those actors who have been, and
> > insolently keep, misusing the power they have, still
> > inflicting damage to society just because they can't believe
> > there could possibly be an alternative to the business model
> > they adopted.
> > That model is the carrier and perpetuator of three concepts
> > that have become very fashionable lately in debates all over
> > the world: cupidity; avidity; greed. If you, the ordinary
> > coder/layman, had used any of those words only ten years
> > ago, you would have been discounted as a psychotic wannabe
> > prophet, at best.
> > The tragic is that our governments have given in, in
> > adopting the current business model, so our governments are
> > not anymore run by statesmen nowadays but by arriviste
> > committee guys. Nations are run by business committees.
> > Without getting into these considerations, I wish to simply
> > say that cupidity, and the megalomania that goes with it, is
> > one of those human peculiarities that can easily turn into
> > collective psychosis. It did, predictably. By stubbornly
> > holding to the business model they adopted, Google has put,
> > knowingly or not, the Damocles sward over our head, however
> > big this latter may be.
> > Don't you guys think that this deserves at least to promote
> > and present a strong motion of censure towards Google's
> > decision? Will we always have to be at the mercy of the
> > arcane calculations of some degenerated CEO?
> > In the last decade organizations, companies, scientists and
> > individuals have collectively invested immense amounts of
> > money, time and other resources into SVG. It's not in their
> > interest that one Major today, another tomorrow, keep
> > contributing to entertain a level of market uncertainty at
> > this stage. It's inadmissible and unethical, even though
> > said company probably don't care about either.
> > Isn't it puzzling that Google "seems" to be giving with one
> > hand by organizing the Open, and killing us with the other?
> > The motto should then be "SVG coming of age and going of
> > hope".
> > The whole 500K or 200K thing is a cover up. Who do they
> > think they're fooling?
> > In my programming experience I've learnt that all that you
> > try to do is always possible somehow. 500K to 200K seems
> > like no sweat, given the resources. Maybe they hope that
> > Veiko or someone else does it graciously while they fly in
> > private jets sipping champagne or something, having made
> > good bucks by underpaying subqualified coders.
> > This is not at all the image of Google that we had built in
> > our heads. Deja vu, again and again.
> > Let's be clear on one point though, it's not just poor
> > Google that's in cause, they're only one little byproduct of
> > class degeneration, no, it just happens to fall on them this
> > one time. It's a recursive system bug. And we accept to live
> > with it. For long? Hum... it wouldn't make sense.
> > Domenico
> > --- In email@example.com,
> > "Veiko Herne" <veiko_h@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It's not a question being open source or not. It's
> > more going to be management issues. I can't get decent
> > programmers to write for free to me and without a proper
> > project management we can't get effective results.
> > > The fact that lot of people love to write some part of
> > code each with their own level to belong to some community
> > does not make a good software product most effective way.
> > >
> > > But as I mentioned, Microsoft, IBM, Adobe, Oracle, etc
> > are so bureocratic monsters so they haven't ever written
> > decent code.
> > > Maybe first MS-DOS from Microsoft was, but knowing
> > more Oracle it was crap from the first day released.
> > >
> > > And the actual question still stays. When we will have
> > working WebKit SVG drivers with SMIL support within less
> > than 500K? WebKit seems to be not interested to provide us
> > such kind of product.
> > > I have for example again one Mobile Portal from
> > Australia with over 20M users interested to promote my
> > animations. But as they do not work on majority of mobile
> > phones because of WebKit does not bother to fix simple bugs
> > several years!!! I never written any full application more
> > than few months and never need a buglists or something for
> > my customers. If my product didn't work, no-one ever would
> > have bothered to buy it.
> > > Big Businesses changed the rules to keep their
> > customers by delivering non working solutions and selling
> > upgrades afterwards.
> > >
> > > Veiko
> > >
> > > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org,
> > Jake B <otakuj462@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Veiko,
> > > >
> > > > Replies below:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 7:13 AM, veiko
> > herne<veiko_h@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Jeff
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem with WebKit is that it's open
> > source. When no-one takes the
> > > > > responsibility to write proper code, it
> > cannot be most elegant solution!!!
> > > >
> > > > I feel quite strongly, and I think a lot of
> > people on this list would
> > > > agree with me, that a piece of software being
> > open source does not
> > > > entail a lack of quality. I would, in fact, argue
> > the opposite, that
> > > > if a piece of software is open source, it is more
> > likely to be of a
> > > > higher quality than if it is closed-source and
> > proprietary. The
> > > > example you state involving Microsoft's
> > proprietary software would
> > > > seem to support this. Anecdotally, I can support
> > this by citing a
> > > > number of examples of high-quality open source
> > software. For example,
> > > > here's what I currently running on my Ubuntu 8.04
> > GNU/Linux GNOME
> > > > desktop: Eclipse, Firefox, GVim, and Ekiga. All
> > excellent, quality,
> > > > open source software, IMHO.
> > > >
> > > > With respect to SVG development, drilling down on
> > an open source,
> > > > liberally-licensed SVG player would be the most
> > effective strategy to
> > > > aid the adoption of SVG, as that would lead to
> > the greatest adoption
> > > > on the platforms where it matters the most.
> > Again, see the
> > > > extraordinary proliferation of Webkit-based
> > solutions for evidence of
> > > > this.
> > > >
> > > > For more information on the relative advantages
> > and disadvantages of
> > > > the open versus closed source development, I
> > would recommend reading
> > > > Eric S. Raymond's book "The Cathedral and the
> > Bazaar"
> > > > [http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596001087/%5d.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Jake
> > > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------
> > -----
> > To unsubscribe send a message to: email@example.com
> > -or-
> > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click
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> > ----Yahoo! Groups Links
> > mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org
- Thanks for your comments, Jeff. I found that this is a problem in Chrome
too, and that the inference that it is a webkit bug is supported by
which bug is bafflingly labelled "unconfirmed", having been reported in
I am going to try the chromium-browser on my 32-bit Ubuntu box and see
what webkit does there.
Regards to all,