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stroke-setdasharray="none" causes problem with PDFXML/Mars

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  • th_w@ymail.com
    Hi all, I m experimenting with the Mars plugin for Adobe Reader and have some problems with the stroke-dasharray attribute. I have the following page:
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 23, 2009
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      Hi all,

      I'm experimenting with the Mars plugin for Adobe Reader and have some
      problems with the stroke-dasharray attribute. I have the following page:


      <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

      <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
      xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink">

      <g stroke-width="4" stroke="#000000" fill="none">
      <path d="M 100,0L0,100"/>
      <path d="M 0,0L100,100" stroke-dasharray="5 5"/>
      <path d="M 50,0L50,100" stroke-dasharray="none"/>
      <path d="M 0,50L100,50" stroke-dasharray="5 5"/>
      </g>

      </svg>


      The first two paths are drawn as expected, but the others aren't drawn
      at all by Adobe Reader. Strangely it omits everything that comes
      after a path with stroke-dasharray set to "none". I viewed the file
      in Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape and Firefox. The former three render the
      file as I would expect it to look like. Firefox strokes all lines as
      if the stroke-dasharray attribute wasn't there.

      I'm pretty new to SVG, so I don't really know if this inconsistent
      behavior of different viewers is because my SVG is bad or whether this
      is due to bugs in the Mars plugin and Firefox.

      Can anyone help?

      Thomas W.
    • Klaus Förster
      Hi Thomas, according to the specification [1] contains a list of comma-separated (with optional white space) , so ommiting the commas actually is
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 23, 2009
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        Hi Thomas,

        according to the specification [1] "<dasharray> contains a list of
        comma-separated (with optional white space)", so ommiting the commas
        actually is an error and neither Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape should render
        it ;-)

        Firefox sticks to the spec, so add commas and everthing should be fine.

        As far as Mars is concerned I have no idea. Is there still active
        development on the SVG-capabilities of this plugin?

        [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#StrokeProperties

        cheers,
        klaus

        th_w@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi all,
        >
        > I'm experimenting with the Mars plugin for Adobe Reader and have some
        > problems with the stroke-dasharray attribute. I have the following page:
        >
        > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
        >
        > <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg <http://www.w3.org/2000/svg>"
        > xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink <http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink>">
        >
        > <g stroke-width="4" stroke="#000000" fill="none">
        > <path d="M 100,0L0,100"/>
        > <path d="M 0,0L100,100" stroke-dasharray="5 5"/>
        > <path d="M 50,0L50,100" stroke-dasharray="none"/>
        > <path d="M 0,50L100,50" stroke-dasharray="5 5"/>
        > </g>
        >
        > </svg>
        >
        > The first two paths are drawn as expected, but the others aren't drawn
        > at all by Adobe Reader. Strangely it omits everything that comes
        > after a path with stroke-dasharray set to "none". I viewed the file
        > in Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape and Firefox. The former three render the
        > file as I would expect it to look like. Firefox strokes all lines as
        > if the stroke-dasharray attribute wasn't there.
        >
        > I'm pretty new to SVG, so I don't really know if this inconsistent
        > behavior of different viewers is because my SVG is bad or whether this
        > is due to bugs in the Mars plugin and Firefox.
        >
        > Can anyone help?
        >
        > Thomas W.
        >
        >

        --
        Klaus Förster
        Institut für Geographie
        Universität Innsbruck
        A-6020 Innsbruck, Innrain 52
        Tel.: +43 (0)512 507 5434
      • th_w@ymail.com
        ... render ... Ah, I see! Thanks a lot. Interestingly, also Mars renders it, so Firefox (among those I tested) is the only one that consequently sticks to
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 23, 2009
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          <klaus.foerster@...> wrote:
          >
          > according to the specification [1] "<dasharray> contains a list of
          > comma-separated (with optional white space)", so ommiting the commas
          > actually is an error and neither Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape should
          render
          > it ;-)

          Ah, I see! Thanks a lot. Interestingly, also Mars renders it, so
          Firefox (among those I tested) is the only one that consequently
          sticks to the specs.

          But that doesn't resolve the issue with Mars - it still omits
          everything after stroke-dasharray="none". So this seems to be a bug.

          >
          > As far as Mars is concerned I have no idea. Is there still active
          > development on the SVG-capabilities of this plugin?

          I hope so! I only recently found out about Mars and find it very
          interesting. The last beta release was on September 15, 2008, but I
          have no information on the current state of the project. Maybe
          someone on the list knows? I would be interested to know whether it's
          worth further exploring PDFXML.

          Thomas W.
        • Doug Schepers
          Hi, Folks- ... Yes, this bit me on the butt more than once. Firefox *is* correctly following the spec... but because the spec is a little silly on this point,
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 24, 2009
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            Hi, Folks-

            Klaus Förster wrote (on 1/23/09 9:16 AM):
            >
            > according to the specification [1] "<dasharray> contains a list of
            > comma-separated (with optional white space)", so ommiting the commas
            > actually is an error and neither Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape should render
            > it ;-)
            >
            > Firefox sticks to the spec, so add commas and everthing should be fine.

            Yes, this bit me on the butt more than once. Firefox *is* correctly
            following the spec... but because the spec is a little silly on this
            point, it leads to silly behavior.

            You should be happy to know that the SVG WG is looking at simplifying
            and unifying the list syntax for all attribute values, to use a more
            robust and forgiving separator algorithm. Basically, for any list, we
            intend to allow any combination of spaces with a single optional comma,
            as a separator. So, for any list, the following values would be equivalent:

            "10,30"
            "10, 30"
            "10 30"
            "10 ,30"
            "10 , 30"
            " 10 30"
            "10 30"
            "10,30 "

            This should be easy to parse manually with a regex, as well, so no
            special-casing will be needed.


            In addition, there would be a list-of-lists syntax, inherited from SMIL.
            This would use the semicolon instead of the comma, but would similarly
            allow any combination of a single semicolon and spaces. The following
            would be a list of lists, with 2 values in each list:

            "10,30; 53 18.7"


            We'd be interested in hearing feedback on this change.


            > As far as Mars is concerned I have no idea. Is there still active
            > development on the SVG-capabilities of this plugin?

            Maybe Leonard Rosenthal could speak to that?

            Regards-
            -Doug
          • G. Wade Johnson
            Hi Doug, On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:34:05 -0500 ... Would the d attribute of path follow this format or be it s own style still? It s not really a list....
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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              Hi Doug,

              On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:34:05 -0500
              Doug Schepers <doug@...> wrote:

              > Hi, Folks-
              >
              > Klaus Förster wrote (on 1/23/09 9:16 AM):
              > >
              > > according to the specification [1] "<dasharray> contains a list of
              > > comma-separated (with optional white space)", so ommiting the
              > > commas actually is an error and neither Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape
              > > should render it ;-)
              > >
              > > Firefox sticks to the spec, so add commas and everthing should be
              > > fine.
              >
              > Yes, this bit me on the butt more than once. Firefox *is* correctly
              > following the spec... but because the spec is a little silly on this
              > point, it leads to silly behavior.
              >
              > You should be happy to know that the SVG WG is looking at simplifying
              > and unifying the list syntax for all attribute values, to use a more
              > robust and forgiving separator algorithm. Basically, for any list, we
              > intend to allow any combination of spaces with a single optional
              > comma, as a separator. So, for any list, the following values would
              > be equivalent:
              >
              > "10,30"
              > "10, 30"
              > "10 30"
              > "10 ,30"
              > "10 , 30"
              > " 10 30"
              > "10 30"
              > "10,30 "
              >
              > This should be easy to parse manually with a regex, as well, so no
              > special-casing will be needed.

              Would the d attribute of path follow this format or be it's own style
              still? It's not really a list....

              Personally, I like the idea of simplifying the list syntax.

              > In addition, there would be a list-of-lists syntax, inherited from
              > SMIL. This would use the semicolon instead of the comma, but would
              > similarly allow any combination of a single semicolon and spaces.
              > The following would be a list of lists, with 2 values in each list:
              >
              > "10,30; 53 18.7"

              > We'd be interested in hearing feedback on this change.

              G. Wade
              --
              Simplicity and elegance are unpopular because they require hard work and
              discipline to achieve and education to be appreciated.
              -- Edsger Dijkstra
            • Kenneth Nellis
              ... Following established precedent (SMIL) is good, but this syntax prevents you from specifying a list of lists of lists without introducing more list
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                On Jan 25, 2009, at 12:34 AM, Doug Schepers wrote:

                > In addition, there would be a list-of-lists syntax, inherited from
                > SMIL. This would use the semicolon instead of the comma, but would
                > similarly allow any combination of a single semicolon and spaces.
                > The following would be a list of lists, with 2 values in each list:
                >
                > "10,30; 53 18.7"
                >
                > We'd be interested in hearing feedback on this change.

                Following established precedent (SMIL) is good, but this syntax
                prevents you from specifying a list of lists of lists without
                introducing more list delimiter symbols. Perhaps an alternative
                format using brackets could be used so any level of nesting could be
                specified, e.g., "[[10,30], [53,18.7]], [[11,31], [54,19.7]]".
                �Ken Nellis

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jens Thiele
                ... Maybe simply use S-expressions [0] ? your e.g.: [[[10 30] [53 18.7]] [[11 31] [54 19.7]]] or (((10 30) (53 18.7)) ((11 31) (54 19.7))) [0]
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                  Kenneth Nellis <nellisks@...> writes:

                  > On Jan 25, 2009, at 12:34 AM, Doug Schepers wrote:
                  >
                  >> In addition, there would be a list-of-lists syntax, inherited from
                  >> SMIL. This would use the semicolon instead of the comma, but would
                  >> similarly allow any combination of a single semicolon and spaces.
                  >> The following would be a list of lists, with 2 values in each list:
                  >>
                  >> "10,30; 53 18.7"
                  >>
                  >> We'd be interested in hearing feedback on this change.
                  >
                  > Following established precedent (SMIL) is good, but this syntax
                  > prevents you from specifying a list of lists of lists without
                  > introducing more list delimiter symbols. Perhaps an alternative
                  > format using brackets could be used so any level of nesting could be
                  > specified, e.g., "[[10,30], [53,18.7]], [[11,31], [54,19.7]]".
                  > —Ken Nellis

                  Maybe simply use S-expressions [0] ?
                  your e.g.:
                  "[[[10 30] [53 18.7]] [[11 31] [54 19.7]]]"
                  or
                  "(((10 30) (53 18.7)) ((11 31) (54 19.7)))"

                  [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression

                  karme
                • Doug Schepers
                  Hi, Wade- ... Sure, is a list, just an irregular one where the path command sets the context for the parameters. To clarify, the only thing we
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                    Hi, Wade-

                    G. Wade Johnson wrote (on 1/25/09 11:08 AM):
                    >
                    > On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:34:05 -0500
                    > Doug Schepers <doug@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> You should be happy to know that the SVG WG is looking at simplifying
                    >> and unifying the list syntax for all attribute values, to use a more
                    >> robust and forgiving separator algorithm. Basically, for any list, we
                    >> intend to allow any combination of spaces with a single optional
                    >> comma, as a separator. So, for any list, the following values would
                    >> be equivalent:
                    ...
                    >
                    > Would the d attribute of path follow this format or be it's own style
                    > still? It's not really a list....

                    Sure, <path @d> is a list, just an "irregular" one where the path
                    command sets the context for the parameters.

                    To clarify, the only thing we would be changing would be the delimiter,
                    not the ordering or number of parameters for any given attribute value.

                    So, yes, while this would apply to <path @d>, in reality, it wouldn't
                    change it... this is already the defacto rule for separators in @d.
                    This would simply be a generalization and codification of those same
                    rules, and to explain it upfront, to make it easier to learn to handcode
                    content (for all attribute values, not just <path @d>.

                    That actually brings up a subtlety of list syntax that I didn't mention
                    before: some separator tokens can be omitted, when they are not needed.
                    [1] This applies when the one of the tokens in the pattern itself acts
                    as a delimiter, as for <path> commands:

                    d="M 100 100 L 200 200"
                    d="M100 100L200 200"

                    or for the parens in transforms:

                    transform="translate(20 30) scale(2,3) rotate(30 10,10)"
                    transform="translate(20 30)scale(2 3)rotate(30 10 10)"

                    These would be enumerated as part of each attribute description.
                    However, these should be few, and consistent between attribute values...
                    they will always be changes in token type (from numeric to alphabetic,
                    or from punctuation to alphabetic).


                    > Personally, I like the idea of simplifying the list syntax.

                    Cool, thanks for the feedback.


                    [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#PathDataGeneralInformation

                    Regards-
                    -Doug
                  • Doug Schepers
                    Hi, Guys- ... These are interesting proposals, but they would be a serious departure from what is already allowed in SVG, and we are really just attempting to
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                      Hi, Guys-

                      Jens Thiele wrote (on 1/25/09 1:21 PM):
                      > Kenneth Nellis <nellisks@...> writes:
                      >
                      >> On Jan 25, 2009, at 12:34 AM, Doug Schepers wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> In addition, there would be a list-of-lists syntax, inherited from
                      >>> SMIL. This would use the semicolon instead of the comma, but would
                      >>> similarly allow any combination of a single semicolon and spaces.
                      >>> The following would be a list of lists, with 2 values in each list:
                      >>>
                      >>> "10,30; 53 18.7"
                      >>>
                      >>> We'd be interested in hearing feedback on this change.
                      >>
                      >> Following established precedent (SMIL) is good, but this syntax
                      >> prevents you from specifying a list of lists of lists without
                      >> introducing more list delimiter symbols. Perhaps an alternative
                      >> format using brackets could be used so any level of nesting could be
                      >> specified, e.g., "[[10,30], [53,18.7]], [[11,31], [54,19.7]]".
                      >> —Ken Nellis
                      >
                      > Maybe simply use S-expressions [0] ?
                      > your e.g.:
                      > "[[[10 30] [53 18.7]] [[11 31] [54 19.7]]]"
                      > or
                      > "(((10 30) (53 18.7)) ((11 31) (54 19.7)))"
                      >
                      > [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression


                      These are interesting proposals, but they would be a serious departure
                      from what is already allowed in SVG, and we are really just attempting
                      to introduce uniformity and ensure interoperability between
                      implementations, not to extend the syntax. As it is, the simplified
                      list syntax is more or less supported by all the UAs, with a few
                      outliers like the one that spawned this thread.

                      Further, I can't think of anywhere we would use list-of-list-of-list...
                      as it is, attribute values in SVG are already fairly complicated, and I
                      personally wouldn't want to make them any more complex. If we ever
                      needed more parameters, I would prefer that we add new attributes,
                      rather than obfuscate existing ones further.


                      Regards-
                      -Doug
                    • G. Wade Johnson
                      On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:59:42 -0500 ... So, would this just apply to the arguments to the drawing/moving commands in path/@d or to everything. According to
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                        On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:59:42 -0500
                        Doug Schepers <doug@...> wrote:

                        > Hi, Wade-
                        >
                        > G. Wade Johnson wrote (on 1/25/09 11:08 AM):
                        > >
                        > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:34:05 -0500
                        > > Doug Schepers <doug@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> You should be happy to know that the SVG WG is looking at
                        > >> simplifying and unifying the list syntax for all attribute values,
                        > >> to use a more robust and forgiving separator algorithm.
                        > >> Basically, for any list, we intend to allow any combination of
                        > >> spaces with a single optional comma, as a separator. So, for any
                        > >> list, the following values would be equivalent:
                        > ...
                        > >
                        > > Would the d attribute of path follow this format or be it's own
                        > > style still? It's not really a list....
                        >
                        > Sure, <path @d> is a list, just an "irregular" one where the path
                        > command sets the context for the parameters.
                        >
                        > To clarify, the only thing we would be changing would be the
                        > delimiter, not the ordering or number of parameters for any given
                        > attribute value.
                        >
                        > So, yes, while this would apply to <path @d>, in reality, it wouldn't
                        > change it... this is already the defacto rule for separators in @d.
                        > This would simply be a generalization and codification of those same
                        > rules, and to explain it upfront, to make it easier to learn to
                        > handcode content (for all attribute values, not just <path @d>.

                        So, would this just apply to the arguments to the drawing/moving
                        commands in path/@d or to everything. According to
                        http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#PathDataBNF, commas aren't
                        allowed before the commands. This has bitten me several times. Some
                        viewers accept the extra commas and some (FireFox) do not.

                        > That actually brings up a subtlety of list syntax that I didn't
                        > mention before: some separator tokens can be omitted, when they are
                        > not needed. [1] This applies when the one of the tokens in the
                        > pattern itself acts as a delimiter, as for <path> commands:
                        >
                        > d="M 100 100 L 200 200"
                        > d="M100 100L200 200"
                        >
                        > or for the parens in transforms:
                        >
                        > transform="translate(20 30) scale(2,3) rotate(30 10,10)"
                        > transform="translate(20 30)scale(2 3)rotate(30 10 10)"
                        >
                        > These would be enumerated as part of each attribute description.
                        > However, these should be few, and consistent between attribute
                        > values... they will always be changes in token type (from numeric to
                        > alphabetic, or from punctuation to alphabetic).

                        Good to know.

                        > > Personally, I like the idea of simplifying the list syntax.
                        >
                        > Cool, thanks for the feedback.
                        >
                        >
                        > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#PathDataGeneralInformation

                        Thanks for keeping us updated and for all your work on the
                        recommendations.

                        G. Wade
                        --
                        If it doesn't have to be right, I can make it arbitrarily fast.
                        -- Rick Hoselton
                      • Ian Tindale
                        Would JSON encapsulation be useful (and readableful) here? 2009/1/25 Doug Schepers ... -- Ian Tindale
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                          Would JSON encapsulation be useful (and readableful) here?

                          2009/1/25 Doug Schepers <doug@...>

                          > Hi, Folks-
                          >
                          > Klaus Förster wrote (on 1/23/09 9:16 AM):
                          > >
                          > > according to the specification [1] "<dasharray> contains a list of
                          > > comma-separated (with optional white space)", so ommiting the commas
                          > > actually is an error and neither Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape should render
                          > > it ;-)
                          > >
                          > > Firefox sticks to the spec, so add commas and everthing should be fine.
                          >
                          > Yes, this bit me on the butt more than once. Firefox *is* correctly
                          > following the spec... but because the spec is a little silly on this
                          > point, it leads to silly behavior.
                          >
                          > You should be happy to know that the SVG WG is looking at simplifying
                          > and unifying the list syntax for all attribute values, to use a more
                          > robust and forgiving separator algorithm. Basically, for any list, we
                          > intend to allow any combination of spaces with a single optional comma,
                          > as a separator. So, for any list, the following values would be equivalent:
                          >
                          > "10,30"
                          > "10, 30"
                          > "10 30"
                          > "10 ,30"
                          > "10 , 30"
                          > " 10 30"
                          > "10 30"
                          > "10,30 "
                          >
                          > This should be easy to parse manually with a regex, as well, so no
                          > special-casing will be needed.
                          >
                          > In addition, there would be a list-of-lists syntax, inherited from SMIL.
                          > This would use the semicolon instead of the comma, but would similarly
                          > allow any combination of a single semicolon and spaces. The following
                          > would be a list of lists, with 2 values in each list:
                          >
                          > "10,30; 53 18.7"
                          >
                          > We'd be interested in hearing feedback on this change.
                          >
                          > > As far as Mars is concerned I have no idea. Is there still active
                          > > development on the SVG-capabilities of this plugin?
                          >
                          > Maybe Leonard Rosenthal could speak to that?
                          >
                          > Regards-
                          > -Doug
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          Ian Tindale
                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/iantindale/


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Doug Schepers
                          Hi, Ian- ... readableful :) Hmmm... can you expand on what you mean? Regards- -Doug
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                            Hi, Ian-

                            Ian Tindale wrote (on 1/25/09 6:08 PM):
                            > Would JSON encapsulation be useful (and readableful) here?

                            "readableful" :)

                            Hmmm... can you expand on what you mean?

                            Regards-
                            -Doug
                          • Doug Schepers
                            Hi, Wade- ... So, you mean these would be equivalent? d= M100,100, L200,200, d= M100,100 L200,200 I don t see any obvious conflicts that would cause, so
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                              Hi, Wade-

                              G. Wade Johnson wrote (on 1/25/09 6:00 PM):
                              > On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:59:42 -0500
                              > Doug Schepers <doug@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > So, would this just apply to the arguments to the drawing/moving
                              > commands in path/@d or to everything. According to
                              > http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/paths.html#PathDataBNF, commas aren't
                              > allowed before the commands. This has bitten me several times.

                              So, you mean these would be equivalent?
                              d="M100,100, L200,200,"
                              d="M100,100 L200,200"

                              I don't see any obvious conflicts that would cause, so there's no reason
                              to forbid that... I will bring it up with the SVG WG. In fact, I would
                              expect that to fall out of the model, though I personally wouldn't have
                              thought of it.


                              > Some viewers accept the extra commas and some (FireFox) do not.

                              Yeah, that's exactly what we are trying to avoid by clarifying the syntax.


                              > Thanks for keeping us updated and for all your work on the
                              > recommendations.

                              Our pleasure. The SVG WG really appreciates the informed feedback of
                              people with SVG experience, to make the language more useful. For that
                              matter, we also appreciate feedback from SVG newbies, who might bring
                              fresh insight into the process.

                              Regards-
                              -Doug
                            • ddailey
                              I like it. Commas and spaces ought to be fairly interchangeable and this is a step that should make life easier for authors, with little difficulty for browser
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 25, 2009
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                                I like it. Commas and spaces ought to be fairly interchangeable and this is a step that should make life easier for authors, with little difficulty for browser implementers.

                                As some of the other discussions in this thread arose, the other thought that came to mind was keeping an eye open to future extensibility into, say, declarative drawing primitives like the proposed <doodle> tag: see

                                http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/A_place_to_gather_suggestions_and_discussion_of_new_features
                                and specifically
                                http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/spec.html#doodle


                                something like <doodle dd="(((M 100 100 radian 330 12) scale .5) iterate 12) (((last duplicate) translate 30) rotate 20 ) iterate 5 > which might allow rich unscripted recursive forms to be entered declaratively.

                                The syntax here is intentionally verbose to be suggestive rather then illustrative.

                                If the WG is to consider expansions on this or a handful of other fronts, then it will be important to keep extensibility of SVG's syntax in mind in preparation.

                                cheers
                                David
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Doug Schepers
                                To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:34 AM
                                Subject: [svg-developers] List Syntax (was: stroke-setdasharray="none" causes problem with PDFXML/Mars)


                                Hi, Folks-

                                Klaus Förster wrote (on 1/23/09 9:16 AM):
                                >
                                > according to the specification [1] "<dasharray> contains a list of
                                > comma-separated (with optional white space)", so ommiting the commas
                                > actually is an error and neither Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape should render
                                > it ;-)
                                >
                                > Firefox sticks to the spec, so add commas and everthing should be fine.

                                Yes, this bit me on the butt more than once. Firefox *is* correctly
                                following the spec... but because the spec is a little silly on this
                                point, it leads to silly behavior.

                                You should be happy to know that the SVG WG is looking at simplifying
                                and unifying the list syntax for all attribute values, to use a more
                                robust and forgiving separator algorithm. Basically, for any list, we
                                intend to allow any combination of spaces with a single optional comma,
                                as a separator. So, for any list, the following values would be equivalent:

                                "10,30"
                                "10, 30"
                                "10 30"
                                "10 ,30"
                                "10 , 30"
                                " 10 30"
                                "10 30"
                                "10,30 "

                                This should be easy to parse manually with a regex, as well, so no
                                special-casing will be needed.

                                In addition, there would be a list-of-lists syntax, inherited from SMIL.
                                This would use the semicolon instead of the comma, but would similarly
                                allow any combination of a single semicolon and spaces. The following
                                would be a list of lists, with 2 values in each list:

                                "10,30; 53 18.7"

                                We'd be interested in hearing feedback on this change.

                                > As far as Mars is concerned I have no idea. Is there still active
                                > development on the SVG-capabilities of this plugin?

                                Maybe Leonard Rosenthal could speak to that?

                                Regards-
                                -Doug





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • th_w@ymail.com
                                It s interesting to see what discussion my list syntax inaccuracy triggered. However, I reported my original problem (that is: if Mars hits an element with
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 30, 2009
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                                  It's interesting to see what discussion my list syntax inaccuracy
                                  triggered. However, I reported my original problem (that is: if Mars
                                  hits an element with stroke-setdasharray="true", it seems to stop
                                  processing the SVG there) to mars-bugs@... almost a week ago,
                                  but didn't get a reply yet. I really want to know whether it's worth
                                  further exploring PDFXML. How can I find out whether the project is
                                  still alive and whether it's still planned to make it a built-in
                                  feature of Acrobat? Any idea?

                                  Thomas W.


                                  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "th_w@..." <th_w@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > <klaus.foerster@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > according to the specification [1] "<dasharray> contains a list of
                                  > > comma-separated (with optional white space)", so ommiting the commas
                                  > > actually is an error and neither Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape should
                                  > render
                                  > > it ;-)
                                  >
                                  > Ah, I see! Thanks a lot. Interestingly, also Mars renders it, so
                                  > Firefox (among those I tested) is the only one that consequently
                                  > sticks to the specs.
                                  >
                                  > But that doesn't resolve the issue with Mars - it still omits
                                  > everything after stroke-dasharray="none". So this seems to be a bug.
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > As far as Mars is concerned I have no idea. Is there still active
                                  > > development on the SVG-capabilities of this plugin?
                                  >
                                  > I hope so! I only recently found out about Mars and find it very
                                  > interesting. The last beta release was on September 15, 2008, but I
                                  > have no information on the current state of the project. Maybe
                                  > someone on the list knows? I would be interested to know whether it's
                                  > worth further exploring PDFXML.
                                  >
                                  > Thomas W.
                                  >
                                • Andreas Neumann
                                  Have you tried on the Mars project site to get any feedback. I personally wouldn t bet much on Adobe regarding SVG support. Since the Macromedia merger there
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 31, 2009
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                                    Have you tried on the Mars project site to get any feedback.

                                    I personally wouldn't bet much on Adobe regarding SVG support. Since the Macromedia
                                    merger there are hardly any SVG supporters left in the company.

                                    Other companies and open source projects are now supporting SVG: Inkscape, Opera,
                                    Webkit, Trolltech/QT, Mozilla, Google,

                                    Even if the Mars project continues it will most likely be a plugin which isn't enabled by
                                    default in the Acrobat reader - besides, please don't forget that many people have other
                                    PDF readers installed (Mac Preview, Okular/Document Viewer on Linux, etc.) - those are
                                    very good PDF readers but not from Adobe and probably not implementing most of the
                                    Adobe specific PDF extensions.

                                    However, I might be totally wrong with my assumption, in which case someone from (or
                                    related to) Adobe should correct me ..

                                    Andreas

                                    --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "th_w@..." <th_w@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > It's interesting to see what discussion my list syntax inaccuracy
                                    > triggered. However, I reported my original problem (that is: if Mars
                                    > hits an element with stroke-setdasharray="true", it seems to stop
                                    > processing the SVG there) to mars-bugs@... almost a week ago,
                                    > but didn't get a reply yet. I really want to know whether it's worth
                                    > further exploring PDFXML. How can I find out whether the project is
                                    > still alive and whether it's still planned to make it a built-in
                                    > feature of Acrobat? Any idea?
                                    >
                                    > Thomas W.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "th_w@" <th_w@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > <klaus.foerster@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > according to the specification [1] "<dasharray> contains a list of
                                    > > > comma-separated (with optional white space)", so ommiting the commas
                                    > > > actually is an error and neither Opera, Squiggle, Inkscape should
                                    > > render
                                    > > > it ;-)
                                    > >
                                    > > Ah, I see! Thanks a lot. Interestingly, also Mars renders it, so
                                    > > Firefox (among those I tested) is the only one that consequently
                                    > > sticks to the specs.
                                    > >
                                    > > But that doesn't resolve the issue with Mars - it still omits
                                    > > everything after stroke-dasharray="none". So this seems to be a bug.
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > As far as Mars is concerned I have no idea. Is there still active
                                    > > > development on the SVG-capabilities of this plugin?
                                    > >
                                    > > I hope so! I only recently found out about Mars and find it very
                                    > > interesting. The last beta release was on September 15, 2008, but I
                                    > > have no information on the current state of the project. Maybe
                                    > > someone on the list knows? I would be interested to know whether it's
                                    > > worth further exploring PDFXML.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thomas W.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • veiko herne
                                    Are u talking about the project to terraform planet Mars where my last $2K is? The technology was there so we just did a fund to go there and implement it in
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 31, 2009
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                                      Are u talking about the project to terraform planet Mars where my last $2K is?
                                      The technology was there so we just did a fund to go there and implement it in 1998. The business was based on basic US rules that that "if you are being first of the land and can keep it for year, the land belongs to you"
                                      Thats the fair rule or do you think otherwise?
                                      So why we are not in planet Mars?

                                      Veiko

                                      http://veikoh.wordpress.com


                                      --- On Sat, 1/31/09, Andreas Neumann <a.neumann@...> wrote:

                                      > From: Andreas Neumann <a.neumann@...>
                                      > Subject: [svg-developers] Re: stroke-setdasharray="none" causes problem with PDFXML/Mars
                                      > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 6:25 PM
                                      > Have you tried on the Mars project site to get any feedback.
                                      >
                                      > I personally wouldn't bet much on Adobe regarding SVG
                                      > support. Since the Macromedia
                                      > merger there are hardly any SVG supporters left in the
                                      > company.
                                      >
                                      > Other companies and open source projects are now supporting
                                      > SVG: Inkscape, Opera,
                                      > Webkit, Trolltech/QT, Mozilla, Google,
                                      >
                                      > Even if the Mars project continues it will most likely be a
                                      > plugin which isn't enabled by
                                      > default in the Acrobat reader - besides, please don't
                                      > forget that many people have other
                                      > PDF readers installed (Mac Preview, Okular/Document Viewer
                                      > on Linux, etc.) - those are
                                      > very good PDF readers but not from Adobe and probably not
                                      > implementing most of the
                                      > Adobe specific PDF extensions.
                                      >
                                      > However, I might be totally wrong with my assumption, in
                                      > which case someone from (or
                                      > related to) Adobe should correct me ..
                                      >
                                      > Andreas
                                      >
                                      > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "th_w@..."
                                      > <th_w@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > It's interesting to see what discussion my list
                                      > syntax inaccuracy
                                      > > triggered. However, I reported my original problem
                                      > (that is: if Mars
                                      > > hits an element with
                                      > stroke-setdasharray="true", it seems to stop
                                      > > processing the SVG there) to mars-bugs@... almost a
                                      > week ago,
                                      > > but didn't get a reply yet. I really want to know
                                      > whether it's worth
                                      > > further exploring PDFXML. How can I find out whether
                                      > the project is
                                      > > still alive and whether it's still planned to make
                                      > it a built-in
                                      > > feature of Acrobat? Any idea?
                                      > >
                                      > > Thomas W.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > "th_w@" <th_w@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > <klaus.foerster@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > according to the specification [1]
                                      > "<dasharray> contains a list of
                                      > > > > comma-separated (with optional white
                                      > space)", so ommiting the commas
                                      > > > > actually is an error and neither Opera,
                                      > Squiggle, Inkscape should
                                      > > > render
                                      > > > > it ;-)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Ah, I see! Thanks a lot. Interestingly, also
                                      > Mars renders it, so
                                      > > > Firefox (among those I tested) is the only one
                                      > that consequently
                                      > > > sticks to the specs.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > But that doesn't resolve the issue with Mars
                                      > - it still omits
                                      > > > everything after
                                      > stroke-dasharray="none". So this seems to be a
                                      > bug.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > As far as Mars is concerned I have no idea.
                                      > Is there still active
                                      > > > > development on the SVG-capabilities of this
                                      > plugin?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I hope so! I only recently found out about Mars
                                      > and find it very
                                      > > > interesting. The last beta release was on
                                      > September 15, 2008, but I
                                      > > > have no information on the current state of the
                                      > project. Maybe
                                      > > > someone on the list knows? I would be interested
                                      > to know whether it's
                                      > > > worth further exploring PDFXML.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thomas W.
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > -----
                                      > To unsubscribe send a message to:
                                      > svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > -or-
                                      > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
                                      > click "edit my membership"
                                      > ----Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • th_w@ymail.com
                                      Andreas, thanks for you answer. ... Well, as I said, I mailed them but didn t get a reply (yet). It wouldn t hurt to try once more, though. ... the Macromedia
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 31, 2009
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                                        Andreas, thanks for you answer.

                                        --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Neumann"
                                        <a.neumann@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Have you tried on the Mars project site to get any feedback.
                                        >

                                        Well, as I said, I mailed them but didn't get a reply (yet). It
                                        wouldn't hurt to try once more, though.

                                        > I personally wouldn't bet much on Adobe regarding SVG support. Since
                                        the Macromedia
                                        > merger there are hardly any SVG supporters left in the company.
                                        >

                                        I think it would strategically make sense if they developed an XML
                                        version of PDF. It seems to me that currently XPS has a kind of
                                        monopoly in that field, and I wouldn't be too certain it won't eat up
                                        any of PDF's market share. As far as I know, XPS is more or less
                                        home-brewn Microsoft technology. PDFXML is based on well established
                                        standards (SVG, PDF, OpenType, ICC, PNG and JPEG), so in my eyes that
                                        would make it far superior.

                                        > Other companies and open source projects are now supporting SVG:
                                        Inkscape, Opera,
                                        > Webkit, Trolltech/QT, Mozilla, Google,
                                        >

                                        But are there any real life uses of SVG as a multi page print document
                                        format? I know there is the SVG print draft, but are there viewers
                                        (or other SVG applications) that support multi page SVG documents?

                                        > please don't forget that many people have other
                                        > PDF readers installed (Mac Preview, Okular/Document Viewer on Linux,
                                        etc.) - those are
                                        > very good PDF readers but not from Adobe and probably not
                                        implementing most of the
                                        > Adobe specific PDF extensions.
                                        >

                                        That's certainly true. I myself use a number of different PDF
                                        viewers. I wouldn't rely on PDFXML being supported by other PDF
                                        viewers than Adobe Reader. For distribution, the files can be
                                        converted to traditional PDF. But I think that the format has the
                                        potential and Adobe would have the necessary weight to establish it in
                                        the market (if they only wanted).

                                        Thomas W.
                                      • Andreas Neumann
                                        ... up ... established ... that ... yes, certainly. But as far as I know Adobe, they will push their own XML/Flash/Flex standard because they want to be in
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                          > I think it would strategically make sense if they developed an XML
                                          > version of PDF. It seems to me that currently XPS has a kind of
                                          > monopoly in that field, and I wouldn't be too certain it won't eat
                                          up
                                          > any of PDF's market share. As far as I know, XPS is more or less
                                          > home-brewn Microsoft technology. PDFXML is based on well
                                          established
                                          > standards (SVG, PDF, OpenType, ICC, PNG and JPEG), so in my eyes
                                          that
                                          > would make it far superior.

                                          yes, certainly. But as far as I know Adobe, they will push their own
                                          XML/Flash/Flex standard because they want to be in control of
                                          everything.

                                          > > Other companies and open source projects are now supporting SVG:
                                          > Inkscape, Opera,
                                          > > Webkit, Trolltech/QT, Mozilla, Google,
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > But are there any real life uses of SVG as a multi page print
                                          document
                                          > format? I know there is the SVG print draft, but are there viewers
                                          > (or other SVG applications) that support multi page SVG documents?

                                          no - they only printing workflow involving SVG that works currently
                                          is SVG in conjunction with XSL-FO. But it delivers to PDF, or
                                          multiple SVG files (one file per page). Most XSL-FO processors
                                          support SVG as an input format and some as an output format.

                                          > > please don't forget that many people have other
                                          > > PDF readers installed (Mac Preview, Okular/Document Viewer on
                                          Linux,
                                          > etc.) - those are
                                          > > very good PDF readers but not from Adobe and probably not
                                          > implementing most of the
                                          > > Adobe specific PDF extensions.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > That's certainly true. I myself use a number of different PDF
                                          > viewers. I wouldn't rely on PDFXML being supported by other PDF
                                          > viewers than Adobe Reader. For distribution, the files can be
                                          > converted to traditional PDF. But I think that the format has the
                                          > potential and Adobe would have the necessary weight to establish it
                                          in
                                          > the market (if they only wanted).

                                          yes - if they wanted.

                                          Andreas
                                        • th_w@ymail.com
                                          Andreas, thanks for sharing your expert insight. Viele Grüße und vielen Dank! Thomas W.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Feb 2, 2009
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                                            Andreas, thanks for sharing your expert insight. Viele Grüße und
                                            vielen Dank!

                                            Thomas W.
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