Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Silverlight and other RIA's and RWC

Expand Messages
  • geoffrey@nwlink.com
    It is hardly fair that someone can respond to Silverlight post with a hostile but not altogether factual response, so I am going to try one more time to get a
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 4, 2007
      It is hardly fair that someone can respond to Silverlight post with a
      hostile but not altogether factual response, so I am going to try one more
      time to get a word in.

      Quote:
      "That is the
      eternal promise that we are going to be smashed by the
      next
      compelling experience brought to us by so and so. The reality is
      different, those packages really act as constrictors of the
      imagination, being based on the principle of tool and object
      libraries."

      Silverlight is hardly any different
      than SVG. It uses XML data to define graphic objects, which can be
      scripted and created using Javascript on a web page. So this critique
      of Silverlight is hardly applicable whatsoever.

      The syntax
      is somewhat different, of course, and SVG still has a few things that
      Silverlight lacks. But Silverlight is actually making rapid progress
      and already works very reliably on far more computers / browsers
      without a lot of gotchas than SVG does. At least 90% of the installed
      base can run the Silverlight plugin right now vs. about 30% (at best)
      with SVG and even then you would have to have detection code to handle the
      various bugs in the flavor of SVG available on the user's browser and a
      huge amount of very flakey behaviour.

      There is about a six
      month window where SVG is going to have to do some serious catchup and
      come up with a version that works as widely (and as identically on various
      browsers) as Silverlight already does, or SVG won't EVER
      get widespread adoption. Ignoring this fact is not going to make the
      problem go away.

      Trying to say that this is not an acceptable
      topic here won't save SVG. Doing something about it will. I don't
      want M$ to win on this one, but they will succeed at
      imposing the new graphic standard if the SVG progress
      continues at the same glacial rate of the past few years. There are too
      many people with projects that need to be done now, rather than waiting
      for a more politically correct technology.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Domenico Strazzullo
      ... adds to ... Hey, if this little gives you stomach ache you should stick by Joe and Sally. ... 40yahoogroups.com , ... by ... light ... where ... admit ...
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 4, 2007
        --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Quintero"
        <30blows@...> wrote:
        >
        > Give it a break fellows.
        >
        > What a stupid can of worms. This is not a political list.
        >
        > Just information and technology and help and even insight.
        >
        > It can be SVG tech, or the limits of SVG tech, or other tech which
        adds to
        > SVG, or even competes with SVG by way of examination.
        >
        > But who wants to swallow political opinions? Indigestion.
        >
        > Stephen

        Hey, if this little gives you stomach ache you should stick by Joe
        and Sally.


        >
        >
        >
        > On 6/4/07, Domenico Strazzullo <nst@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com <svg-developers%
        40yahoogroups.com>,
        > > "Lincoln Mitchell"
        > > <lincoln@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi all,
        > > >
        > > > I hope no one feels I am trying to poach members off this list
        by
        > > writing
        > > > this post. I feel it's a constructive response top the silver
        light
        > > thread
        > > > that may help some members of the list.
        > > >
        > > > I have been a SVG evangelist for many years even to the point
        where
        > > it
        > > > contributed to me losing my job. Over the years I have had to
        admit
        > > that SVG
        > > > was not going to meet my goal of creating great looking user
        > > interfaces.
        > >
        > > Excuse me, but speak for yourself. Was SVG that didn't meet your
        > > goal? Shouldn't you phrase like this instead: "I wasn't able to
        meet
        > > my goal of creating great looking user interfaces using SVG"
        > >
        > > > Then I read about RIA's and I think I now have a path and it may
        > > even
        > > > include SVG.
        > >
        > > RIA is only a conceptual denomination, like multimedia used to
        be. If
        > > you consider that a path, I'm scared. If you're striving to be a
        > > creator I urge you to get a deeper insight.
        > >
        > > >
        > > > I was reading the posts on Silverlight. From my knowledge
        > > Silverlight is one
        > > > of many new Rich Internet Applications (RIA) that aim take the
        web
        > > to the
        > > > next creative level. I my self use the RIA Flex/Flash/Apollo
        and I
        > > have also
        > > > of Java FX as a contender in this space. Seems all the big boys
        are
        > > in on
        > > > this.
        > >
        > > That is the eternal promise that we are going to be smashed by the
        > > next compelling experience brought to us by so and so. The
        reality is
        > > different, those packages really act as constrictors of the
        > > imagination, being based on the principle of tool and object
        > > libraries. The designer or the programmer ends up being a simple
        > > assembler. I'm not talking business here, I'm talking creation
        since
        > > you use that concept. RIA does not mean we are going to be cloning
        > > interfaces and applications the same way that has happened in the
        > > video game market. No, thanks. A programmer uses a totally
        different
        > > bias, he must have, or must acquire, the ability to find
        imaginative
        > > solutions using whatever language he sees as the most appropriate.
        > > And a designer cannot be confined to a little set of CTT (Cute
        Tiny
        > > Tools). Let's not confuse tools and toys. Tools are for workers;
        toys
        > > are for children to simulate work. Where SVG is a concept, these
        > > other "magic tools" are produced with the sole intention of
        selling
        > > encapsulated copies of open standard languages under the
        > > label "elixir of creation".
        > >
        > > >
        > > > It appears to me that SVG offers only one part of the puzzle
        that
        > > makes up a
        > > > RIA. It should not therefore be compared to the whole of a RIA
        but
        > > to a part
        > > > of it, the part that deals with rendering vector images.
        > >
        > > I don't think anyone ever dreamt of comparing SVG to the whole of
        a
        > > RIA, as you say. This is truly extraordinary!
        > >
        > > >
        > > > W3C is started a Rich Web Client (RWC) activity that will
        include
        > > SVG. Here
        > > > is the link. http://www.w3.org/2006/rwc/
        > > >
        > > > Simply put - If you are trying to use SVG to create next
        generation
        > > UI's
        > > > then you are not using the right tool.
        > >
        > > You are making a statement against opposing evidence.
        > >
        > > > I believe many members like myself
        > > > will come to this conclusion and partially or fully leave the
        SVG
        > > arena for
        > > > a while at least until this W3C RWC initiative becomes a
        standard
        > > with SVG
        > > > as a core technology.
        > >
        > > If you, together with many members, think that butterflying from
        one
        > > flower to the other will make a better creator of you, then good
        luck!
        > >
        > > >
        > > > In saying that I personally will not be abandoning SVG
        altogether.
        > > It is
        > > > possible to integrate inline SVG within Flex. Not sure if
        > > Silverlight can do
        > > > this, if it can't I would encourage UI oriented members of the
        > > group to
        > > > follow suit and see what's possible with SVG/Flex at least till
        > > W3C's RWC
        > > > catches up.
        > >
        > > W3C doesn't normally "catch up". It does a totally different
        thing.
        > >
        > > >
        > > > For those not interested in corporate software, you will be
        please
        > > to know
        > > > that Flex is to become open source. If the SVG community gets
        > > behind the
        > > > future development of Flex then we could extend this SVG RIA
        > > development
        > > > environment whilst also contributing to the w3c efforts.
        > >
        > > It's unlikely that that should happen.
        > >
        > > >
        > > > I think many on the list are like me - a UI guy that thought SVG
        > > would take
        > > > me to utopia.
        > >
        > > That's very nice. But take a look around, you ARE in utopia!
        > >
        > > > So to you I hope this post helps to put things in perspective.
        > > > And maybe we could get of the backs of all the other SVG guys
        that
        > > clearly
        > > > take offence to our ramblings.
        > >
        > > Please, don't generalize. Your message is very clear and deserves
        all
        > > the attention.
        > >
        > > Kind regards,
        > >
        > > Domenico
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Kind regards,
        > > >
        > > > Linc
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Guy Morton
        I think you ve put plenty of words in. Saying something can work on 90% of browsers right now when what you really mean is if they install the plugin is
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 11, 2007
          I think you've put plenty of words in.

          Saying something can work on 90% of browsers right now when what you
          really mean is "if they install the plugin" is disingenuous at best
          and downright dishonest at worst. At least SVG has real native
          support in the most popular IE alternatives out there, and I see FF's
          popularity growing as IE's is shrinking, so do the math.

          Let this thread die, please. Go and join a Silverlight list if you
          love it so much and bore them with your endless illogical rantings.

          Guy

          PS doing something to support SVG's future may include not allowing
          pro-Silverlight posts in an SVG group. You seem very reluctant to
          support SVG in this way, so shouldn't be surprised that people
          suspect you of being a shill.


          On 05/06/2007, at 5:52 AM, geoffrey@... wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          > It is hardly fair that someone can respond to Silverlight post with a
          > hostile but not altogether factual response, so I am going to try
          > one more
          > time to get a word in.
          >
          > Quote:
          > "That is the
          > eternal promise that we are going to be smashed by the
          > next
          > compelling experience brought to us by so and so. The reality is
          > different, those packages really act as constrictors of the
          > imagination, being based on the principle of tool and object
          > libraries."
          >
          > Silverlight is hardly any different
          > than SVG. It uses XML data to define graphic objects, which can be
          > scripted and created using Javascript on a web page. So this critique
          > of Silverlight is hardly applicable whatsoever.
          >
          > The syntax
          > is somewhat different, of course, and SVG still has a few things that
          > Silverlight lacks. But Silverlight is actually making rapid progress
          > and already works very reliably on far more computers / browsers
          > without a lot of gotchas than SVG does. At least 90% of the installed
          > base can run the Silverlight plugin right now vs. about 30% (at best)
          > with SVG and even then you would have to have detection code to
          > handle the
          > various bugs in the flavor of SVG available on the user's browser
          > and a
          > huge amount of very flakey behaviour.
          >
          > There is about a six
          > month window where SVG is going to have to do some serious catchup and
          > come up with a version that works as widely (and as identically on
          > various
          > browsers) as Silverlight already does, or SVG won't EVER
          > get widespread adoption. Ignoring this fact is not going to make the
          > problem go away.
          >
          > Trying to say that this is not an acceptable
          > topic here won't save SVG. Doing something about it will. I don't
          > want M$ to win on this one, but they will succeed at
          > imposing the new graphic standard if the SVG progress
          > continues at the same glacial rate of the past few years. There are
          > too
          > many people with projects that need to be done now, rather than
          > waiting
          > for a more politically correct technology.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > -----
          > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
          > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > -or-
          > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
          > my membership"
          > ----
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • pilatfr
          ... you ... best ... FF s ... allowing ... Perhaps a way to support svg would be to ask what is W3C s responsability in decreasing interest for svg? Another
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 11, 2007
            --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote:
            >
            > I think you've put plenty of words in.
            >
            > Saying something can work on 90% of browsers right now when what
            you
            > really mean is "if they install the plugin" is disingenuous at
            best
            > and downright dishonest at worst. At least SVG has real native
            > support in the most popular IE alternatives out there, and I see
            FF's
            > popularity growing as IE's is shrinking, so do the math.
            >
            > Let this thread die, please. Go and join a Silverlight list if you
            > love it so much and bore them with your endless illogical rantings.
            >
            > Guy
            >
            > PS doing something to support SVG's future may include not
            allowing
            > pro-Silverlight posts in an SVG group. You seem very reluctant to
            > support SVG in this way, so shouldn't be surprised that people
            > suspect you of being a shill.

            Perhaps a way to support svg would be to ask what is W3C's
            responsability in decreasing interest for svg?
            Another would be to redefine svg's purpose and place in global
            context to close svg to "scalable vector graphics" only.
            It's not responsability of SilverLight in this.
            I have to say that SilverLight plugin has efficient level that svg
            has not, even as native in Opera or FF.

            Michel

            > On 05/06/2007, at 5:52 AM, geoffrey@... wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > It is hardly fair that someone can respond to Silverlight post
            with a
            > > hostile but not altogether factual response, so I am going to
            try
            > > one more
            > > time to get a word in.
            > >
            > > Quote:
            > > "That is the
            > > eternal promise that we are going to be smashed by the
            > > next
            > > compelling experience brought to us by so and so. The reality is
            > > different, those packages really act as constrictors of the
            > > imagination, being based on the principle of tool and object
            > > libraries."
            > >
            > > Silverlight is hardly any different
            > > than SVG. It uses XML data to define graphic objects, which can be
            > > scripted and created using Javascript on a web page. So this
            critique
            > > of Silverlight is hardly applicable whatsoever.
            > >
            > > The syntax
            > > is somewhat different, of course, and SVG still has a few things
            that
            > > Silverlight lacks. But Silverlight is actually making rapid
            progress
            > > and already works very reliably on far more computers / browsers
            > > without a lot of gotchas than SVG does. At least 90% of the
            installed
            > > base can run the Silverlight plugin right now vs. about 30% (at
            best)
            > > with SVG and even then you would have to have detection code to
            > > handle the
            > > various bugs in the flavor of SVG available on the user's
            browser
            > > and a
            > > huge amount of very flakey behaviour.
            > >
            > > There is about a six
            > > month window where SVG is going to have to do some serious
            catchup and
            > > come up with a version that works as widely (and as identically
            on
            > > various
            > > browsers) as Silverlight already does, or SVG won't EVER
            > > get widespread adoption. Ignoring this fact is not going to make
            the
            > > problem go away.
            > >
            > > Trying to say that this is not an acceptable
            > > topic here won't save SVG. Doing something about it will. I don't
            > > want M$ to win on this one, but they will succeed at
            > > imposing the new graphic standard if the SVG progress
            > > continues at the same glacial rate of the past few years. There
            are
            > > too
            > > many people with projects that need to be done now, rather than
            > > waiting
            > > for a more politically correct technology.
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -----
            > > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
            > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > -or-
            > > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
            click "edit
            > > my membership"
            > > ----
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Guy Morton
            i don t think it s the w3c s fault. like everything else that s wrong with the web and the world in general, i think we can blame these problems on the
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 12, 2007
              i don't think it's the w3c's fault.

              like everything else that's wrong with the web and the world in
              general, i think we can blame these problems on the corporate need to
              provide shareholder value.

              personally, i don't use IE (except for testing) and find it hard to
              understand why anyone in their right mind would. I do not believe
              that Silverlight can achieve world domination having been hatched
              into the world as it is today. Perhaps neither can you or geoffrey,
              or you wouldn't feel the need to talk it up.

              anyway, this is off-topic, so let's move on.

              Guy


              On 12/06/2007, at 4:57 PM, pilatfr wrote:

              > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> I think you've put plenty of words in.
              >>
              >> Saying something can work on 90% of browsers right now when what
              > you
              >> really mean is "if they install the plugin" is disingenuous at
              > best
              >> and downright dishonest at worst. At least SVG has real native
              >> support in the most popular IE alternatives out there, and I see
              > FF's
              >> popularity growing as IE's is shrinking, so do the math.
              >>
              >> Let this thread die, please. Go and join a Silverlight list if you
              >> love it so much and bore them with your endless illogical rantings.
              >>
              >> Guy
              >>
              >> PS doing something to support SVG's future may include not
              > allowing
              >> pro-Silverlight posts in an SVG group. You seem very reluctant to
              >> support SVG in this way, so shouldn't be surprised that people
              >> suspect you of being a shill.
              >
              > Perhaps a way to support svg would be to ask what is W3C's
              > responsability in decreasing interest for svg?
              > Another would be to redefine svg's purpose and place in global
              > context to close svg to "scalable vector graphics" only.
              > It's not responsability of SilverLight in this.
              > I have to say that SilverLight plugin has efficient level that svg
              > has not, even as native in Opera or FF.
              >
              > Michel
              >
              >> On 05/06/2007, at 5:52 AM, geoffrey@... wrote:
              >>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> It is hardly fair that someone can respond to Silverlight post
              > with a
              >>> hostile but not altogether factual response, so I am going to
              > try
              >>> one more
              >>> time to get a word in.
              >>>
              >>> Quote:
              >>> "That is the
              >>> eternal promise that we are going to be smashed by the
              >>> next
              >>> compelling experience brought to us by so and so. The reality is
              >>> different, those packages really act as constrictors of the
              >>> imagination, being based on the principle of tool and object
              >>> libraries."
              >>>
              >>> Silverlight is hardly any different
              >>> than SVG. It uses XML data to define graphic objects, which can be
              >>> scripted and created using Javascript on a web page. So this
              > critique
              >>> of Silverlight is hardly applicable whatsoever.
              >>>
              >>> The syntax
              >>> is somewhat different, of course, and SVG still has a few things
              > that
              >>> Silverlight lacks. But Silverlight is actually making rapid
              > progress
              >>> and already works very reliably on far more computers / browsers
              >>> without a lot of gotchas than SVG does. At least 90% of the
              > installed
              >>> base can run the Silverlight plugin right now vs. about 30% (at
              > best)
              >>> with SVG and even then you would have to have detection code to
              >>> handle the
              >>> various bugs in the flavor of SVG available on the user's
              > browser
              >>> and a
              >>> huge amount of very flakey behaviour.
              >>>
              >>> There is about a six
              >>> month window where SVG is going to have to do some serious
              > catchup and
              >>> come up with a version that works as widely (and as identically
              > on
              >>> various
              >>> browsers) as Silverlight already does, or SVG won't EVER
              >>> get widespread adoption. Ignoring this fact is not going to make
              > the
              >>> problem go away.
              >>>
              >>> Trying to say that this is not an acceptable
              >>> topic here won't save SVG. Doing something about it will. I don't
              >>> want M$ to win on this one, but they will succeed at
              >>> imposing the new graphic standard if the SVG progress
              >>> continues at the same glacial rate of the past few years. There
              > are
              >>> too
              >>> many people with projects that need to be done now, rather than
              >>> waiting
              >>> for a more politically correct technology.
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> -----
              >>> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
              >>> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >>> -or-
              >>> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
              > click "edit
              >>> my membership"
              >>> ----
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----
              > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
              > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > -or-
              > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
              > my membership"
              > ----
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.