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Have you played with Silverlight?

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  • a30blows
    Hi all, I am working on a web-app using SVG with a bunch of ecmascript. It basically uses SVG as a 2D CAD system for assembling connected collections of
    Message 1 of 24 , May 20, 2007
      Hi all,

      I am working on a web-app using SVG with a bunch of ecmascript. It
      basically uses SVG as a 2D CAD system for assembling connected
      collections of components.

      Naturally I am concerned about the future of SVG. Adobe has stopped
      development on ASV. Looking at a broad user base, most folks will
      have to install the ASV plugin to use my product, while
      FireFox/Mozilla users will not. There is a certain barrier to use
      involved in installing a plug-in.

      I would guess that before too long this situation will reverse. That
      is, Silverlight will not require a plug-in install in some future
      update to IE 6/7. While all other browsers will require a plug-in
      install for Silverlight.

      So, my question #1. Have any of you made significant forays into
      using Silverlight? Into coding ecmascript or PHP or other
      client/server languages in Silverlight? What is your experience?

      A bit off topic, my question #2. I am using X3D and FluxPlayer to
      enable 3D viewing of the assemblies. Okay so far, but no mac support.
      Do any of you have any recommendations to make about X3D plug-ins or
      other usable technology?

      Thank you,

      Stephen
    • kggsystem
      Hi Stephen I ve been developing in Silverlight since early December and it rocks. You need to go get it, and the developer s SDK and play with it. You ll be
      Message 2 of 24 , May 25, 2007
        Hi Stephen

        I've been developing in Silverlight since early December and it rocks.

        You need to go get it, and the developer's SDK and play with it. You'll
        be sold in a couple of hours.

        You wont be disappointed.

        Kevgor (I drunk the koolaid)
      • Geoff Swenson
        I have written a really nice graphing tool with the Silverlight alpha. It really does rock. SVG is somewhat easier to create objects with, but Silverlight
        Message 3 of 24 , May 25, 2007
          I have written a really nice graphing tool with the Silverlight alpha. It
          really does rock.

          SVG is somewhat easier to create objects with, but Silverlight renders and
          animates incredibly quickly, probably at least 10x as fast as SVG.

          You can grab a complex object consisting of thousands of elements and drag
          it around very quickly. With Adobe SVG, you get really poor performance
          when you try to manipulate or scale large objects with javascript and
          mouse actions.

          Text support was really lousy in the early Silverlight betas but it is
          getting better with each release.

          Just like SVG, it is extremely easy to integrate the contents of the
          graphics with the page elements.

          It would be possible to convert SVG projects to Silverlight, but last I
          checked (about three months ago) it doesn't yet have any way to create
          object stylesheets or grouped objects like SVG. You would have to simulate
          this in code by actually cloning the objects rather than just creating an
          new instance of the group.

          But at the rate of current progress Silverlight should have all the kewl
          features you'd want and then some in about a year, especially since the
          clock for Adobe SVG progress got stuck many years ago, and the open source
          SVG implementations so far have been rather poor.

          Geoff Swenson
          geoffrey@...
        • Doug Schepers
          Hi, Kevin and Geoff, et al- As owner of the SVG-Developers list, and as a strong supporter for open standards, I m going to ask you politely to stop
          Message 4 of 24 , May 25, 2007
            Hi, Kevin and Geoff, et al-

            As owner of the SVG-Developers list, and as a strong supporter for open
            standards, I'm going to ask you politely to stop evangelizing
            Silverlight on SVG-Dev (as I've asked for self-moderation in the past
            regarding Flash).

            I have nothing against Silverlight, and it's fine if you want to use it,
            but it's not on-topic for our list; this is a forum for technical
            questions on using SVG. Silverlight has the weight and financial
            backing of Microsoft behind it; Flash and Apollo both have Adobe's
            backing. All these proprietary technologies have their own mailing
            lists, so I don't think they need any further advertising on this list.

            SVG is growing steadily, and it has market relevance, but open standards
            are already at a huge disadvantage compared to proprietary technologies
            (and not for technical reasons). I feel that it is important that the
            Web remain open, and part of that is ensuring that no one company
            controls the languages of the Web.

            I'm not trying to censor this list, and I'm not going to block any
            posts. I think that a fair and open discussion of SVG will include some
            comparison to competing technologies. It's important that SVG grow in
            response to other technologies (as Silverlight derives heavily from
            SVG). But it irritates me when people on this list recommend abandoning
            SVG, in favor of proprietary competitors. It's FUD, and it's not polite.

            A more constructive activity would be to identify what features of those
            corporate technologies you find compelling, and ask for comparable
            features to be added to SVG on www-svg@... (the W3C's public SVG
            list, which the SVG WG monitors for feedback). Also, you can appeal
            directly to browser vendors (or even contribute code, e.g. to Mozilla
            and Batik), and let them know you need particular SVG features (I think
            that the Mozilla Corp could use some encouragement to add resources to
            SVG, for example).

            It's always an individual choice whether to do the Right Thing (tm), or
            to let corporate interests take control (and frankly, sometimes you have
            no choice, out of pragmatism); but the sum of those individual choices
            determines the landscape of the Web, and the degree to which it relies
            on open standards. Sorry if that sounds all preachy, but it's how I
            feel, and why I think SVG is more important than any similar corporate
            equivalent.

            If the technical difference were more pronounced, I might feel
            differently. But for most purposes, SVG is as good as its more
            tightly-controlled cousins. I think the big difference is in authoring
            tool support, and there is something that can be done about that.

            I'm sure you can understand my perspective, and I hope you will honor
            this request.

            </rant>

            Regards-
            -Doug
          • Guy Morton
            Right on Doug! It s especially irritating when people post nothing of substance except ra-ra-ra s for their preferred SVG alternative. If SVG isn t what
            Message 5 of 24 , May 25, 2007
              Right on Doug!

              It's especially irritating when people post nothing of substance
              except "ra-ra-ra"s for their preferred SVG alternative.

              If SVG isn't what you're interested in, unsubscribe!

              Guy


              On 26/05/2007, at 11:14 AM, Doug Schepers wrote:

              > Hi, Kevin and Geoff, et al-
              >
              > As owner of the SVG-Developers list, and as a strong supporter for
              > open
              > standards, I'm going to ask you politely to stop evangelizing
              > Silverlight on SVG-Dev (as I've asked for self-moderation in the past
              > regarding Flash).
              >
              > I have nothing against Silverlight, and it's fine if you want to
              > use it,
              > but it's not on-topic for our list; this is a forum for technical
              > questions on using SVG. Silverlight has the weight and financial
              > backing of Microsoft behind it; Flash and Apollo both have Adobe's
              > backing. All these proprietary technologies have their own mailing
              > lists, so I don't think they need any further advertising on this
              > list.
              >
              > SVG is growing steadily, and it has market relevance, but open
              > standards
              > are already at a huge disadvantage compared to proprietary
              > technologies
              > (and not for technical reasons). I feel that it is important that the
              > Web remain open, and part of that is ensuring that no one company
              > controls the languages of the Web.
              >
              > I'm not trying to censor this list, and I'm not going to block any
              > posts. I think that a fair and open discussion of SVG will include
              > some
              > comparison to competing technologies. It's important that SVG grow in
              > response to other technologies (as Silverlight derives heavily from
              > SVG). But it irritates me when people on this list recommend
              > abandoning
              > SVG, in favor of proprietary competitors. It's FUD, and it's not
              > polite.
              >
              > A more constructive activity would be to identify what features of
              > those
              > corporate technologies you find compelling, and ask for comparable
              > features to be added to SVG on www-svg@... (the W3C's public SVG
              > list, which the SVG WG monitors for feedback). Also, you can appeal
              > directly to browser vendors (or even contribute code, e.g. to Mozilla
              > and Batik), and let them know you need particular SVG features (I
              > think
              > that the Mozilla Corp could use some encouragement to add resources to
              > SVG, for example).
              >
              > It's always an individual choice whether to do the Right Thing
              > (tm), or
              > to let corporate interests take control (and frankly, sometimes you
              > have
              > no choice, out of pragmatism); but the sum of those individual choices
              > determines the landscape of the Web, and the degree to which it relies
              > on open standards. Sorry if that sounds all preachy, but it's how I
              > feel, and why I think SVG is more important than any similar corporate
              > equivalent.
              >
              > If the technical difference were more pronounced, I might feel
              > differently. But for most purposes, SVG is as good as its more
              > tightly-controlled cousins. I think the big difference is in
              > authoring
              > tool support, and there is something that can be done about that.
              >
              > I'm sure you can understand my perspective, and I hope you will honor
              > this request.
              >
              > </rant>
              >
              > Regards-
              > -Doug
              >
              >
              > -----
              > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
              > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > -or-
              > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
              > my membership"
              > ----
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • CPK Smithies
              Well said Doug! CPK Smithies
              Message 6 of 24 , May 25, 2007
                Well said Doug!

                CPK Smithies
              • Z T Minhas
                Hi, i am always for moderated groups. and this is one of those instances. i don t think that this guy is a real silverlight user. he is probably one of those
                Message 7 of 24 , May 25, 2007
                  Hi,

                  i am always for moderated groups. and this is one of those instances. i don't think that this guy is a "real" silverlight user. he is probably one of those paid schills that are supposed to push a product through the internet, call it "corporate viral" marketing. please kick him off the group. as far as SVG is concerned. i love it!

                  Z T

                  Guy Morton <guy@...> wrote: Right on Doug!

                  It's especially irritating when people post nothing of substance
                  except "ra-ra-ra"s for their preferred SVG alternative.

                  If SVG isn't what you're interested in, unsubscribe!

                  Guy


                  On 26/05/2007, at 11:14 AM, Doug Schepers wrote:

                  > Hi, Kevin and Geoff, et al-
                  >
                  > As owner of the SVG-Developers list, and as a strong supporter for
                  > open
                  > standards, I'm going to ask you politely to stop evangelizing
                  > Silverlight on SVG-Dev (as I've asked for self-moderation in the past
                  > regarding Flash).
                  >
                  > I have nothing against Silverlight, and it's fine if you want to
                  > use it,
                  > but it's not on-topic for our list; this is a forum for technical
                  > questions on using SVG. Silverlight has the weight and financial
                  > backing of Microsoft behind it; Flash and Apollo both have Adobe's
                  > backing. All these proprietary technologies have their own mailing
                  > lists, so I don't think they need any further advertising on this
                  > list.
                  >
                  > SVG is growing steadily, and it has market relevance, but open
                  > standards
                  > are already at a huge disadvantage compared to proprietary
                  > technologies
                  > (and not for technical reasons). I feel that it is important that the
                  > Web remain open, and part of that is ensuring that no one company
                  > controls the languages of the Web.
                  >
                  > I'm not trying to censor this list, and I'm not going to block any
                  > posts. I think that a fair and open discussion of SVG will include
                  > some
                  > comparison to competing technologies. It's important that SVG grow in
                  > response to other technologies (as Silverlight derives heavily from
                  > SVG). But it irritates me when people on this list recommend
                  > abandoning
                  > SVG, in favor of proprietary competitors. It's FUD, and it's not
                  > polite.
                  >
                  > A more constructive activity would be to identify what features of
                  > those
                  > corporate technologies you find compelling, and ask for comparable
                  > features to be added to SVG on www-svg@... (the W3C's public SVG
                  > list, which the SVG WG monitors for feedback). Also, you can appeal
                  > directly to browser vendors (or even contribute code, e.g. to Mozilla
                  > and Batik), and let them know you need particular SVG features (I
                  > think
                  > that the Mozilla Corp could use some encouragement to add resources to
                  > SVG, for example).
                  >
                  > It's always an individual choice whether to do the Right Thing
                  > (tm), or
                  > to let corporate interests take control (and frankly, sometimes you
                  > have
                  > no choice, out of pragmatism); but the sum of those individual choices
                  > determines the landscape of the Web, and the degree to which it relies
                  > on open standards. Sorry if that sounds all preachy, but it's how I
                  > feel, and why I think SVG is more important than any similar corporate
                  > equivalent.
                  >
                  > If the technical difference were more pronounced, I might feel
                  > differently. But for most purposes, SVG is as good as its more
                  > tightly-controlled cousins. I think the big difference is in
                  > authoring
                  > tool support, and there is something that can be done about that.
                  >
                  > I'm sure you can understand my perspective, and I hope you will honor
                  > this request.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards-
                  > -Doug
                  >
                  >
                  > -----
                  > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
                  > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > -or-
                  > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
                  > my membership"
                  > ----
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  -----
                  To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  -or-
                  visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership"
                  ----
                  Yahoo! Groups Links






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                • Geoffrey Swenson
                  SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more work in it for more than a year. This is not to say that I dislike SVG much at all, but the
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                    SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more work in it
                    for more than a year. This is not to say that I dislike SVG much at all, but
                    the Adobe plugin has a lot of problems, and SVG is nowhere near as
                    universally available as Silverlight already is. I gave up when the new
                    Mozilla stuff was barely functional, and Opera was even worse. Since IE no
                    longer handles SVG, you can continue banging your head on the wall, or just
                    make the pragmatic decision and go with Silverlight.



                    Silverlight has hit the ground running hard. It isn't going to do the
                    members of this group any good to put their heads in the ground and hope
                    that it will go away and that SVG will somehow rise from its longtime
                    sickbed.



                    There have been lots of good things to go by the wayside, such as Ventura
                    Publisher (which is still the best page layout program nobody has heard
                    about) but is probably very dead since there isn't any money to be made in
                    developing it any further.



                    Microsoft has spent their millions developing Silverlight, and it shows. It
                    is relevant to the more honest and/or pragmatic members of this group, who
                    are going to have to decide how to migrate their code to something that is
                    going to be more widely available than SVG.



                    I could hardly care less about whether it is open-sourced or not. I just
                    don't see how volunteer efforts can find a revenue stream to keep up with
                    proprietary code. I just want a platform for my ideas, and I will pay for
                    good tools.



                    Just the rendering speed of Silverlight is something really exciting.
                    Ordinary mortals can code really fast complex graphics without having to
                    deal with low level graphic details. If SVG could do this (and had a
                    well-financed patron behind it) nobody would even care about Silverlight.



                    People here don't generally post about Flash, because we've been there and
                    found it seriously wanting in flexibility and programming ease.



                    I am not a lurking Microsoft person, though I have worked there as a
                    somewhat resentful permatemp a couple of times. I am perfectly aware that
                    Microsoft doesn't always play so nice.



                    But Silverlight really is kewl. I am honestly very excited about it and I
                    will leave it at that.



                    _____

                    From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Doug Schepers
                    Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 6:15 PM
                    To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [svg-developers] OT (was: Have you played with Silverlight?)



                    Hi, Kevin and Geoff, et al-

                    As owner of the SVG-Developers list, and as a strong supporter for open
                    standards, I'm going to ask you politely to stop evangelizing
                    Silverlight on SVG-Dev (as I've asked for self-moderation in the past
                    regarding Flash).

                    I have nothing against Silverlight, and it's fine if you want to use it,
                    but it's not on-topic for our list; this is a forum for technical
                    questions on using SVG. Silverlight has the weight and financial
                    backing of Microsoft behind it; Flash and Apollo both have Adobe's
                    backing. All these proprietary technologies have their own mailing
                    lists, so I don't think they need any further advertising on this list.

                    SVG is growing steadily, and it has market relevance, but open standards
                    are already at a huge disadvantage compared to proprietary technologies
                    (and not for technical reasons). I feel that it is important that the
                    Web remain open, and part of that is ensuring that no one company
                    controls the languages of the Web.

                    I'm not trying to censor this list, and I'm not going to block any
                    posts. I think that a fair and open discussion of SVG will include some
                    comparison to competing technologies. It's important that SVG grow in
                    response to other technologies (as Silverlight derives heavily from
                    SVG). But it irritates me when people on this list recommend abandoning
                    SVG, in favor of proprietary competitors. It's FUD, and it's not polite.

                    A more constructive activity would be to identify what features of those
                    corporate technologies you find compelling, and ask for comparable
                    features to be added to SVG on www-svg@... <mailto:www-svg%40w3.org>
                    (the W3C's public SVG
                    list, which the SVG WG monitors for feedback). Also, you can appeal
                    directly to browser vendors (or even contribute code, e.g. to Mozilla
                    and Batik), and let them know you need particular SVG features (I think
                    that the Mozilla Corp could use some encouragement to add resources to
                    SVG, for example).

                    It's always an individual choice whether to do the Right Thing (tm), or
                    to let corporate interests take control (and frankly, sometimes you have
                    no choice, out of pragmatism); but the sum of those individual choices
                    determines the landscape of the Web, and the degree to which it relies
                    on open standards. Sorry if that sounds all preachy, but it's how I
                    feel, and why I think SVG is more important than any similar corporate
                    equivalent.

                    If the technical difference were more pronounced, I might feel
                    differently. But for most purposes, SVG is as good as its more
                    tightly-controlled cousins. I think the big difference is in authoring
                    tool support, and there is something that can be done about that.

                    I'm sure you can understand my perspective, and I hope you will honor
                    this request.

                    </rant>

                    Regards-
                    -Doug





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Guy Morton
                    So why are you still here?
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                      So why are you still here?

                      On 26/05/2007, at 5:41 PM, Geoffrey Swenson wrote:

                      > SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more
                      > work in it
                      > for more than a year. This is not to say that I dislike SVG much at
                      > all, but
                      > the Adobe plugin has a lot of problems, and SVG is nowhere near as
                      > universally available as Silverlight already is. I gave up when the
                      > new
                      > Mozilla stuff was barely functional, and Opera was even worse.
                      > Since IE no
                      > longer handles SVG, you can continue banging your head on the wall,
                      > or just
                      > make the pragmatic decision and go with Silverlight.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Silverlight has hit the ground running hard. It isn't going to do the
                      > members of this group any good to put their heads in the ground and
                      > hope
                      > that it will go away and that SVG will somehow rise from its longtime
                      > sickbed.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > There have been lots of good things to go by the wayside, such as
                      > Ventura
                      > Publisher (which is still the best page layout program nobody has
                      > heard
                      > about) but is probably very dead since there isn't any money to be
                      > made in
                      > developing it any further.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Microsoft has spent their millions developing Silverlight, and it
                      > shows. It
                      > is relevant to the more honest and/or pragmatic members of this
                      > group, who
                      > are going to have to decide how to migrate their code to something
                      > that is
                      > going to be more widely available than SVG.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I could hardly care less about whether it is open-sourced or not. I
                      > just
                      > don't see how volunteer efforts can find a revenue stream to keep
                      > up with
                      > proprietary code. I just want a platform for my ideas, and I will
                      > pay for
                      > good tools.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Just the rendering speed of Silverlight is something really exciting.
                      > Ordinary mortals can code really fast complex graphics without
                      > having to
                      > deal with low level graphic details. If SVG could do this (and had a
                      > well-financed patron behind it) nobody would even care about
                      > Silverlight.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > People here don't generally post about Flash, because we've been
                      > there and
                      > found it seriously wanting in flexibility and programming ease.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I am not a lurking Microsoft person, though I have worked there as a
                      > somewhat resentful permatemp a couple of times. I am perfectly
                      > aware that
                      > Microsoft doesn't always play so nice.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > But Silverlight really is kewl. I am honestly very excited about it
                      > and I
                      > will leave it at that.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-
                      > developers@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On Behalf Of Doug Schepers
                      > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 6:15 PM
                      > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [svg-developers] OT (was: Have you played with Silverlight?)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi, Kevin and Geoff, et al-
                      >
                      > As owner of the SVG-Developers list, and as a strong supporter for
                      > open
                      > standards, I'm going to ask you politely to stop evangelizing
                      > Silverlight on SVG-Dev (as I've asked for self-moderation in the past
                      > regarding Flash).
                      >
                      > I have nothing against Silverlight, and it's fine if you want to
                      > use it,
                      > but it's not on-topic for our list; this is a forum for technical
                      > questions on using SVG. Silverlight has the weight and financial
                      > backing of Microsoft behind it; Flash and Apollo both have Adobe's
                      > backing. All these proprietary technologies have their own mailing
                      > lists, so I don't think they need any further advertising on this
                      > list.
                      >
                      > SVG is growing steadily, and it has market relevance, but open
                      > standards
                      > are already at a huge disadvantage compared to proprietary
                      > technologies
                      > (and not for technical reasons). I feel that it is important that the
                      > Web remain open, and part of that is ensuring that no one company
                      > controls the languages of the Web.
                      >
                      > I'm not trying to censor this list, and I'm not going to block any
                      > posts. I think that a fair and open discussion of SVG will include
                      > some
                      > comparison to competing technologies. It's important that SVG grow in
                      > response to other technologies (as Silverlight derives heavily from
                      > SVG). But it irritates me when people on this list recommend
                      > abandoning
                      > SVG, in favor of proprietary competitors. It's FUD, and it's not
                      > polite.
                      >
                      > A more constructive activity would be to identify what features of
                      > those
                      > corporate technologies you find compelling, and ask for comparable
                      > features to be added to SVG on www-svg@... <mailto:www-svg%
                      > 40w3.org>
                      > (the W3C's public SVG
                      > list, which the SVG WG monitors for feedback). Also, you can appeal
                      > directly to browser vendors (or even contribute code, e.g. to Mozilla
                      > and Batik), and let them know you need particular SVG features (I
                      > think
                      > that the Mozilla Corp could use some encouragement to add resources to
                      > SVG, for example).
                      >
                      > It's always an individual choice whether to do the Right Thing
                      > (tm), or
                      > to let corporate interests take control (and frankly, sometimes you
                      > have
                      > no choice, out of pragmatism); but the sum of those individual choices
                      > determines the landscape of the Web, and the degree to which it relies
                      > on open standards. Sorry if that sounds all preachy, but it's how I
                      > feel, and why I think SVG is more important than any similar corporate
                      > equivalent.
                      >
                      > If the technical difference were more pronounced, I might feel
                      > differently. But for most purposes, SVG is as good as its more
                      > tightly-controlled cousins. I think the big difference is in authoring
                      > tool support, and there is something that can be done about that.
                      >
                      > I'm sure you can understand my perspective, and I hope you will honor
                      > this request.
                      >
                      > </rant>
                      >
                      > Regards-
                      > -Doug
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----
                      > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
                      > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > -or-
                      > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
                      > my membership"
                      > ----
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Doug Schepers
                      Hi, Geoffrey- I think you may have felt a little stung by comments on this list, but as I said, I have no intention of kicking you off the list . You are
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                        Hi, Geoffrey-

                        I think you may have felt a little stung by comments on this list, but
                        as I said, I have no intention of "kicking you off the list". You are
                        welcome to your opinion. Questions or answers to SVG technical issues
                        are welcome here: irrelevant boosting of Silverlight is not.


                        Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
                        > SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more work in it
                        > for more than a year. This is not to say that I dislike SVG much at all, but
                        > the Adobe plugin has a lot of problems, and SVG is nowhere near as
                        > universally available as Silverlight already is. I gave up when the new
                        > Mozilla stuff was barely functional, and Opera was even worse. Since IE no
                        > longer handles SVG, you can continue banging your head on the wall, or just
                        > make the pragmatic decision and go with Silverlight.

                        IE never did handle SVG, of course... the Adobe viewer did. And the
                        Renesis player (and others) are closing the gap. SVG is alive and kicking.

                        You've made it clear that you don't think much of the Firefox or Opera
                        implementations, but I think you're wrong. Both are good, and both are
                        improving.


                        > Silverlight has hit the ground running hard. It isn't going to do the
                        > members of this group any good to put their heads in the ground and hope
                        > that it will go away and that SVG will somehow rise from its longtime
                        > sickbed.

                        On the contrary. SVG has never been more widely supported, and that
                        support is improving. And I think it does do the members of this group
                        --and the Web in general-- good to support open standards, though you
                        may not understand the benefits (or the dangers of the proprietary
                        formats).


                        > Microsoft has spent their millions developing Silverlight, and it shows.

                        You're right, they have... which is (again) why I don't think they need
                        any more advertising on this list.


                        > It is relevant to the more honest and/or pragmatic members of this group,
                        > who are going to have to decide how to migrate their code to something that is
                        > going to be more widely available than SVG.

                        There may be people who feel the need to, and as I said, I'm sympathetic
                        to that market need... but it's neither impragmatic nor dishonest to
                        show integrity in your choice of technology. The truth is, SVG is
                        getting stronger by the day, and your opinion does nothing to change that.


                        > I could hardly care less about whether it is open-sourced or not.

                        I said nothing about open source. It's open standards that are
                        important. Open standards allow for cross-browser, cross-platform,
                        *multi-company* interoperability.


                        > I just
                        > don't see how volunteer efforts can find a revenue stream to keep up with
                        > proprietary code.

                        Firefox seems to have presented a good model to prove you wrong. But
                        you're confusing open source with open standards. Open standards (HTML,
                        etc.) made the Web what it is today, when all the proprietary formats
                        (as championed by AOL, CompuServe, etc.) tried to keep a stranglehold on
                        their own little Web territories.



                        > I just want a platform for my ideas, and I will pay for
                        > good tools.

                        Yes, just as I said: I think the main challenge is the tools.


                        > Just the rendering speed of Silverlight is something really exciting.
                        > Ordinary mortals can code really fast complex graphics without having to
                        > deal with low level graphic details. If SVG could do this (and had a
                        > well-financed patron behind it) nobody would even care about Silverlight.

                        I agree that rendering speed is something that most SVG implementations
                        could use help on, and they are working on it. As for a well-financed
                        patron... well, again, I think you're dancing with the devil when you
                        want one company to rule a technology.


                        > I am not a lurking Microsoft person, though I have worked there as a
                        > somewhat resentful permatemp a couple of times. I am perfectly aware that
                        > Microsoft doesn't always play so nice.

                        And yet...


                        > But Silverlight really is kewl. I am honestly very excited about it and I
                        > will leave it at that.

                        Great. I expect not to hear any more from you about it on this list,
                        thanks.

                        Regards-
                        -Doug
                      • Z T Minhas
                        This is a group dedicate to helping technical issues related to SVG. Moderator please kick these agent provocateurs off the group. I want information about SVG
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                          This is a group dedicate to helping technical issues related to SVG. Moderator please kick these agent provocateurs off the group. I want information about SVG and how i can incorporate such in my applications. I don't want 3rd party fake viral marketers sponsored by some Micro$oft partner telling me about gray-darkness. That is not the point of this group. If you want to do that, get off this group, and make your own yahoo group where you can market all you like.

                          Z T

                          Geoffrey Swenson <geoffrey@...> wrote: SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more work in it for more than a year.


                          ---------------------------------
                          Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Stephen Quintero
                          Hi All, I guess it s a sore spot. Since I asked the original question, I ll put in my last 2 cents. I ve more than a 1,000 hours invested in a commercial tool
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                            Hi All,

                            I guess it's a sore spot. Since I asked the original question, I'll put in
                            my last 2 cents.

                            I've more than a 1,000 hours invested in a commercial tool which relies
                            heavily on SVG (and it's in alpha). It is all built with open standards
                            tech. It works (though not identically in all browsers and not at all in
                            Safari).

                            If I worked in academia or government that would be then end of it - I could
                            just dictate, "if you want to use it then do this, if not too bad". But
                            really, in my circumstances, it's too bad for me.

                            I would, of course, like something users trust, works reliably in different
                            browser/OS combinations and is robust. I would like to stay with SVG
                            because of my investment, because it is open standard, etc. At this point,
                            SVG is like early HTML - you have to code for different browsers and limit
                            your functionality, but it does fabulous things. If it were maturing driven
                            by user demand and killer apps, that would be just fine. But I have this
                            nagging feeling I need to be prepared in case it is eaten by Godzilla.

                            This is a relevant concern and question for many people who work with SVG,
                            hence my post here. It can even reasonably be considered a technical issue
                            with SVG. If you are riding a horse and it croaks under you, that is a
                            technical failure.

                            Yes, I hoped to elicit a more thorough and calm response describing the
                            limits of functionality of Silverlight by way of comparison. And even some
                            insight into the market and why SVG is here to stay (particularly in IE).
                            But, you get what you get.

                            Some rats row, some rats flee the ship, some rats pretend everything is
                            okay. I hope it is. If it weren't for the abandonment of ASV, I would
                            certainly think so. Given a decent chance, open standards tools have proven
                            themselves. But without ongoing development in IE 6/7, which is 3/4 of the
                            market, then there is undoubted concern.

                            For better or worse, I have to make my software work for Joe and Sally who
                            use the internet for web-surfing and shopping. Not for CS students and
                            Linux geeks.

                            Thank you all,

                            Stephen



                            On 5/26/07, Doug Schepers <doug@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi, Geoffrey-
                            >
                            > I think you may have felt a little stung by comments on this list, but
                            > as I said, I have no intention of "kicking you off the list". You are
                            > welcome to your opinion. Questions or answers to SVG technical issues
                            > are welcome here: irrelevant boosting of Silverlight is not.
                            >
                            > Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
                            > > SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more work
                            > in it
                            > > for more than a year. This is not to say that I dislike SVG much at all,
                            > but
                            > > the Adobe plugin has a lot of problems, and SVG is nowhere near as
                            > > universally available as Silverlight already is. I gave up when the new
                            > > Mozilla stuff was barely functional, and Opera was even worse. Since IE
                            > no
                            > > longer handles SVG, you can continue banging your head on the wall, or
                            > just
                            > > make the pragmatic decision and go with Silverlight.
                            >
                            > IE never did handle SVG, of course... the Adobe viewer did. And the
                            > Renesis player (and others) are closing the gap. SVG is alive and kicking.
                            >
                            > You've made it clear that you don't think much of the Firefox or Opera
                            > implementations, but I think you're wrong. Both are good, and both are
                            > improving.
                            >
                            > > Silverlight has hit the ground running hard. It isn't going to do the
                            > > members of this group any good to put their heads in the ground and hope
                            > > that it will go away and that SVG will somehow rise from its longtime
                            > > sickbed.
                            >
                            > On the contrary. SVG has never been more widely supported, and that
                            > support is improving. And I think it does do the members of this group
                            > --and the Web in general-- good to support open standards, though you
                            > may not understand the benefits (or the dangers of the proprietary
                            > formats).
                            >
                            > > Microsoft has spent their millions developing Silverlight, and it shows.
                            >
                            >
                            > You're right, they have... which is (again) why I don't think they need
                            > any more advertising on this list.
                            >
                            > > It is relevant to the more honest and/or pragmatic members of this
                            > group,
                            > > who are going to have to decide how to migrate their code to something
                            > that is
                            > > going to be more widely available than SVG.
                            >
                            > There may be people who feel the need to, and as I said, I'm sympathetic
                            > to that market need... but it's neither impragmatic nor dishonest to
                            > show integrity in your choice of technology. The truth is, SVG is
                            > getting stronger by the day, and your opinion does nothing to change that.
                            >
                            > > I could hardly care less about whether it is open-sourced or not.
                            >
                            > I said nothing about open source. It's open standards that are
                            > important. Open standards allow for cross-browser, cross-platform,
                            > *multi-company* interoperability.
                            >
                            > > I just
                            > > don't see how volunteer efforts can find a revenue stream to keep up
                            > with
                            > > proprietary code.
                            >
                            > Firefox seems to have presented a good model to prove you wrong. But
                            > you're confusing open source with open standards. Open standards (HTML,
                            > etc.) made the Web what it is today, when all the proprietary formats
                            > (as championed by AOL, CompuServe, etc.) tried to keep a stranglehold on
                            > their own little Web territories.
                            >
                            > > I just want a platform for my ideas, and I will pay for
                            > > good tools.
                            >
                            > Yes, just as I said: I think the main challenge is the tools.
                            >
                            > > Just the rendering speed of Silverlight is something really exciting.
                            > > Ordinary mortals can code really fast complex graphics without having to
                            > > deal with low level graphic details. If SVG could do this (and had a
                            > > well-financed patron behind it) nobody would even care about
                            > Silverlight.
                            >
                            > I agree that rendering speed is something that most SVG implementations
                            > could use help on, and they are working on it. As for a well-financed
                            > patron... well, again, I think you're dancing with the devil when you
                            > want one company to rule a technology.
                            >
                            > > I am not a lurking Microsoft person, though I have worked there as a
                            > > somewhat resentful permatemp a couple of times. I am perfectly aware
                            > that
                            > > Microsoft doesn't always play so nice.
                            >
                            > And yet...
                            >
                            > > But Silverlight really is kewl. I am honestly very excited about it and
                            > I
                            > > will leave it at that.
                            >
                            > Great. I expect not to hear any more from you about it on this list,
                            > thanks.
                            >
                            > Regards-
                            > -Doug
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Geoffrey Swenson
                            I am not a fake viral writer. I am a developer that is NOT working for Microsoft at all. I do think that the list manager did a very intelligent counter point
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                              I am not a fake viral writer. I am a developer that is NOT working for
                              Microsoft at all.



                              I do think that the list manager did a very intelligent counter point to my
                              post, but he avoided insulting me. I respect that, I understand his point of
                              view and I won't be posting this stuff again.



                              _____

                              From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
                              On Behalf Of Z T Minhas
                              Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 5:45 AM
                              To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [svg-developers] OT (was: Have you played with Silverlight?)



                              This is a group dedicate to helping technical issues related to SVG.
                              Moderator please kick these agent provocateurs off the group. I want
                              information about SVG and how i can incorporate such in my applications. I
                              don't want 3rd party fake viral marketers sponsored by some Micro$oft
                              partner telling me about gray-darkness. That is not the point of this group.
                              If you want to do that, get off this group, and make your own yahoo group
                              where you can market all you like.

                              Z T

                              Geoffrey Swenson <geoffrey@nwlink. <mailto:geoffrey%40nwlink.com> com>
                              wrote: SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more
                              work in it for more than a year.

                              ---------------------------------
                              Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel
                              and lay it on us.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Doug Schepers
                              Hi, Z T- ... I appreciate your dedication to SVG, and if I did think that this were a case of viral marketers, I would moderate their comments (that is, set
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                                Hi, Z T-

                                Z T Minhas wrote:
                                > This is a group dedicate to helping technical issues related
                                > to SVG. Moderator please kick these agent provocateurs off
                                > the group. I want information about SVG and how i can
                                > incorporate such in my applications. I don't want 3rd party
                                > fake viral marketers sponsored by some Micro$oft partner
                                > telling me about gray-darkness. That is not the point of
                                > this group. If you want to do that, get off this group,
                                > and make your own yahoo group where you can market all you like.

                                I appreciate your dedication to SVG, and if I did think that this were a
                                case of viral marketers, I would moderate their comments (that is, set
                                their posting status to require a review before going to this list)
                                until they proved that they were sincere; I don't like the idea of
                                kicking anyone off the list.

                                But I don't think that's what's going on. I think these are people who
                                have a genuine interest and excitement about a different technology, and
                                I feel my request for them to self-moderate and stay on-topic is the
                                best course. We're all adults here.

                                I, for one, don't feel that their assessments of SVG and the market are
                                correct. Silverlight is definitely a danger to the openness of the Web,
                                but I don't think it will sound the death knell of SVG. But listening
                                to perspectives on why Silverlight is compelling to them informs us what
                                improvements need to be made to SVG.

                                Ultimately, I think that Silverlight may even be good for SVG. A rising
                                tide raises all ships, and with more than Flash in the Web
                                vector-graphics space, I think this entire approach will start to gain
                                more currency with serious developers and corporations. There will be
                                those who recognize that it is in their best interest to promote an open
                                standard rather than succumb to vendor lock-in. These large
                                organizations will have felt the sting of lock-in before.

                                When Flash/Apollo and Silverlight clash, it is SVG which wins the long
                                game. Both of those technologies exist only to make a profit for their
                                controllers; SVG exists to provide a cross-vendor solution to the same
                                problem. If either one of the commercial vendors feels like their
                                technology isn't profitable enough, they will drop it like a hot brick.
                                Smart companies know this. Meanwhile, SVG will be the open standards
                                tortoise to the commercial hares (though we *are* trying to urge the
                                tortoise on a little... we're well aware of market pressures :) ). I
                                suspect SVG will always be more pervasive outside the general browser
                                than either of the competing technologies, and that is one of its hidden
                                strengths. Inside the browser, SVG is also the only one which is
                                natively implemented in any browser, and I think it has staying power.

                                Regards-
                                -Doug
                              • Doug Schepers
                                Hi, Stephen- I think you have a fair question and I wish I were more informed about the technical details of Silverlight to answer you more intelligently;
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 26, 2007
                                  Hi, Stephen-

                                  I think you have a fair question and I wish I were more informed about
                                  the technical details of Silverlight to answer you more intelligently;
                                  learning more about Silverlight is definitely something on my short list
                                  (embrace and extend, anyone?).

                                  But I think I'm in a position to answer your concerns about SVG.

                                  Stephen Quintero wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I guess it's a sore spot. Since I asked the original question, I'll put in
                                  > my last 2 cents.
                                  >
                                  > I've more than a 1,000 hours invested in a commercial tool which relies
                                  > heavily on SVG (and it's in alpha). It is all built with open standards
                                  > tech. It works (though not identically in all browsers and not at all in
                                  > Safari).

                                  WebKit is putting serious effort into improving its SVG implementation,
                                  to the point that Apple has recently joined the SVG Working Group. I
                                  would expect to see marked improvement in Safari within the year (no
                                  insider information, I just know from the trades that lots of Apple
                                  resources have been diverted to push out other Apple products).


                                  > If I worked in academia or government that would be then end of it - I could
                                  > just dictate, "if you want to use it then do this, if not too bad". But
                                  > really, in my circumstances, it's too bad for me.
                                  >
                                  > I would, of course, like something users trust, works reliably in different
                                  > browser/OS combinations and is robust. I would like to stay with SVG
                                  > because of my investment, because it is open standard, etc. At this point,
                                  > SVG is like early HTML - you have to code for different browsers and limit
                                  > your functionality, but it does fabulous things. If it were maturing driven
                                  > by user demand and killer apps, that would be just fine. But I have this
                                  > nagging feeling I need to be prepared in case it is eaten by Godzilla.

                                  SVG is not going away. You can put that fear to rest. If you are
                                  worried about support in IE, that's an open question.

                                  I am hoping that there is still interest in the IE team to implement
                                  SVG; they are a separate division from the Silverlight team, and they
                                  recently came back to the standards table with what seems to be good
                                  will. As a strategic move, they could even benefit from implementing
                                  SVG; it is very similar to Silverlight (hmmm.... wonder why?), more so
                                  than Flash, and may help shift vector technologies in that direction.
                                  It would be a good PR move, and provide an open alternative for those
                                  that need or desire that. And if the pie is split 3 ways instead of 2,
                                  that will cut in Silverlight's favor.

                                  But let's assume that IE doesn't implement SVG natively. There are
                                  several SVG implementations under active development, not the least of
                                  which is the ever-improving Renesis player, which aim to provide
                                  advanced support for SVG in IE (if only as a plug-in... which, remember,
                                  is how Silverlight is distributed).

                                  As a financial concern, it's prudent of you to investigate if
                                  Silverlight will also work for you (if only as a backup plan); I suspect
                                  the conversion will not be profound, but you'll have to research that
                                  yourself.


                                  > This is a relevant concern and question for many people who work with SVG,
                                  > hence my post here. It can even reasonably be considered a technical issue
                                  > with SVG. If you are riding a horse and it croaks under you, that is a
                                  > technical failure.
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I hoped to elicit a more thorough and calm response describing the
                                  > limits of functionality of Silverlight by way of comparison. And even some
                                  > insight into the market and why SVG is here to stay (particularly in IE).
                                  > But, you get what you get.

                                  I suspect most people who are interested in SVG are leary of YAPVF (yet
                                  another proprietary vector format), and Silverlight is still pretty new.
                                  I imagine that there will be more intelligent discussion of the
                                  subject here in coming months.


                                  > Some rats row, some rats flee the ship, some rats pretend everything is
                                  > okay. I hope it is. If it weren't for the abandonment of ASV, I would
                                  > certainly think so. Given a decent chance, open standards tools have proven
                                  > themselves. But without ongoing development in IE 6/7, which is 3/4 of the
                                  > market, then there is undoubted concern.

                                  ASV was not the only game in town, and their tepid support ultimately
                                  did more harm than good to SVG in the latter years. Lines are
                                  definitely being drawn in this space, and I expect a lot of movement
                                  from all related technologies. There is a commercial drive in SVG, just
                                  as there is in the others.


                                  > For better or worse, I have to make my software work for Joe and Sally who
                                  > use the internet for web-surfing and shopping. Not for CS students and
                                  > Linux geeks.

                                  A few years ago, I might have agreed that SVG was academic and more
                                  purist than practical. But I see more support and more market relevance
                                  for it now.

                                  Regards-
                                  -Doug
                                • "~:'' ありがとうございました
                                  my pennyworth... SVG has been around a while but like other W3 specifications, there s little if any input or feedback from the public aka end-users. the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 27, 2007
                                    my pennyworth...

                                    SVG has been around a while but like other W3 specifications, there's
                                    little if any input or feedback from the public aka end-users.

                                    the result is that after more than a decade there are still no html
                                    or svg authoring tools that the ordinary joe can pick up and use out
                                    of the box. the only easy to use tools are corporate owned, such as
                                    myspace, youtube....

                                    These rarely produce code that passes minimal accessibility standards.
                                    In fact there seems to be little if any inclination to update SVG1.1
                                    accessibility guidelines, which frankly had some pretty significant
                                    "holes" such as a complete failure to specify support for keyboard
                                    navigation.

                                    Developers, and their employers benefit enormously from feature bloat.

                                    There are also a few Trojans that get to manipulate standards before
                                    abandoning them, to whose benefit?

                                    cheers

                                    Jonathan Chetwynd



                                    On 26 May 2007, at 19:55, Doug Schepers wrote:

                                    Hi, Stephen-

                                    I think you have a fair question and I wish I were more informed about
                                    the technical details of Silverlight to answer you more intelligently;
                                    learning more about Silverlight is definitely something on my short list
                                    (embrace and extend, anyone?).

                                    But I think I'm in a position to answer your concerns about SVG.

                                    Stephen Quintero wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I guess it's a sore spot. Since I asked the original question,
                                    I'll put in
                                    > my last 2 cents.
                                    >
                                    > I've more than a 1,000 hours invested in a commercial tool which
                                    relies
                                    > heavily on SVG (and it's in alpha). It is all built with open
                                    standards
                                    > tech. It works (though not identically in all browsers and not at
                                    all in
                                    > Safari).

                                    WebKit is putting serious effort into improving its SVG implementation,
                                    to the point that Apple has recently joined the SVG Working Group. I
                                    would expect to see marked improvement in Safari within the year (no
                                    insider information, I just know from the trades that lots of Apple
                                    resources have been diverted to push out other Apple products).

                                    > If I worked in academia or government that would be then end of it
                                    - I could
                                    > just dictate, "if you want to use it then do this, if not too
                                    bad". But
                                    > really, in my circumstances, it's too bad for me.
                                    >
                                    > I would, of course, like something users trust, works reliably in
                                    different
                                    > browser/OS combinations and is robust. I would like to stay with SVG
                                    > because of my investment, because it is open standard, etc. At
                                    this point,
                                    > SVG is like early HTML - you have to code for different browsers
                                    and limit
                                    > your functionality, but it does fabulous things. If it were
                                    maturing driven
                                    > by user demand and killer apps, that would be just fine. But I
                                    have this
                                    > nagging feeling I need to be prepared in case it is eaten by
                                    Godzilla.

                                    SVG is not going away. You can put that fear to rest. If you are
                                    worried about support in IE, that's an open question.

                                    I am hoping that there is still interest in the IE team to implement
                                    SVG; they are a separate division from the Silverlight team, and they
                                    recently came back to the standards table with what seems to be good
                                    will. As a strategic move, they could even benefit from implementing
                                    SVG; it is very similar to Silverlight (hmmm.... wonder why?), more so
                                    than Flash, and may help shift vector technologies in that direction.
                                    It would be a good PR move, and provide an open alternative for those
                                    that need or desire that. And if the pie is split 3 ways instead of 2,
                                    that will cut in Silverlight's favor.

                                    But let's assume that IE doesn't implement SVG natively. There are
                                    several SVG implementations under active development, not the least of
                                    which is the ever-improving Renesis player, which aim to provide
                                    advanced support for SVG in IE (if only as a plug-in... which, remember,
                                    is how Silverlight is distributed).

                                    As a financial concern, it's prudent of you to investigate if
                                    Silverlight will also work for you (if only as a backup plan); I suspect
                                    the conversion will not be profound, but you'll have to research that
                                    yourself.

                                    > This is a relevant concern and question for many people who work
                                    with SVG,
                                    > hence my post here. It can even reasonably be considered a
                                    technical issue
                                    > with SVG. If you are riding a horse and it croaks under you, that
                                    is a
                                    > technical failure.
                                    >
                                    > Yes, I hoped to elicit a more thorough and calm response
                                    describing the
                                    > limits of functionality of Silverlight by way of comparison. And
                                    even some
                                    > insight into the market and why SVG is here to stay (particularly
                                    in IE).
                                    > But, you get what you get.

                                    I suspect most people who are interested in SVG are leary of YAPVF (yet
                                    another proprietary vector format), and Silverlight is still pretty new.
                                    I imagine that there will be more intelligent discussion of the
                                    subject here in coming months.

                                    > Some rats row, some rats flee the ship, some rats pretend
                                    everything is
                                    > okay. I hope it is. If it weren't for the abandonment of ASV, I would
                                    > certainly think so. Given a decent chance, open standards tools
                                    have proven
                                    > themselves. But without ongoing development in IE 6/7, which is
                                    3/4 of the
                                    > market, then there is undoubted concern.

                                    ASV was not the only game in town, and their tepid support ultimately
                                    did more harm than good to SVG in the latter years. Lines are
                                    definitely being drawn in this space, and I expect a lot of movement
                                    from all related technologies. There is a commercial drive in SVG, just
                                    as there is in the others.

                                    > For better or worse, I have to make my software work for Joe and
                                    Sally who
                                    > use the internet for web-surfing and shopping. Not for CS students
                                    and
                                    > Linux geeks.

                                    A few years ago, I might have agreed that SVG was academic and more
                                    purist than practical. But I see more support and more market relevance
                                    for it now.

                                    Regards-
                                    -Doug
                                  • Geoffrey Swenson
                                    The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation & browser that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to work around,
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 27, 2007
                                      The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation & browser
                                      that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to work around,
                                      different code to load the SVG objects, etc. is why I cannot justify any
                                      more work in SVG for my projects.



                                      I want my implementations to be the same regardless of platform. I'm pretty
                                      sure any movement going on in SVG is too little too late. Even if
                                      Silverlight is not the way to go, it is going to be something else.



                                      I built a SVG project and put several months of work into it before it
                                      occurred to me that the Adobe SVG plugin had not been updated for years -
                                      meaning Adobe had pretty much abandoned it. You would have never guessed
                                      this from the dialog here on this list. The sky is blue, everything is rosy;
                                      there are no problems with SVG. Nothing to see here.


                                      Adobe could rectify the lack of SVG support in IE7 quite easily by updating
                                      the plugin, but they obviously prefer not to advance this technology any
                                      further.



                                      And then there is the lousy state of all of the open source SVG efforts that
                                      are mostly way behind the antique Adobe plugin. At the current rate of
                                      progress it will be at least two more years before all of the various
                                      browsers will have most of the SVG features working in a consistent manner.



                                      I am a little disconcerted that we are not going to get any help from this
                                      list to migrate to whatever succeeds SVG. There is nothing wrong with the
                                      list evolving along with the technology. For example, DSLreports becomes
                                      BroadbandReports and keeps on helping people with broadband issues rather
                                      than staying stuck on one small thing.



                                      The next wave of the internet will be come from some sort of new graphical
                                      rendering language. I had hoped it would be SVG, but it looks dead. Please
                                      don't shoot the messengers.



                                      In any case I am sick and tired of the limitations of HTML, shackled by
                                      glacially slow standards progress and reliance on inefficient bitmapped
                                      graphics. Something more is needed.



                                      _____

                                      From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
                                      On Behalf Of "~:'' ????????????"
                                      Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 2:25 PM
                                      To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [svg-developers] Re: OT



                                      my pennyworth...

                                      SVG has been around a while but like other W3 specifications, there's
                                      little if any input or feedback from the public aka end-users.

                                      the result is that after more than a decade there are still no html
                                      or svg authoring tools that the ordinary joe can pick up and use out
                                      of the box. the only easy to use tools are corporate owned, such as
                                      myspace, youtube....

                                      These rarely produce code that passes minimal accessibility standards.
                                      In fact there seems to be little if any inclination to update SVG1.1
                                      accessibility guidelines, which frankly had some pretty significant
                                      "holes" such as a complete failure to specify support for keyboard
                                      navigation.

                                      Developers, and their employers benefit enormously from feature bloat.

                                      There are also a few Trojans that get to manipulate standards before
                                      abandoning them, to whose benefit?

                                      cheers

                                      Jonathan Chetwynd

                                      On 26 May 2007, at 19:55, Doug Schepers wrote:

                                      Hi, Stephen-

                                      I think you have a fair question and I wish I were more informed about
                                      the technical details of Silverlight to answer you more intelligently;
                                      learning more about Silverlight is definitely something on my short list
                                      (embrace and extend, anyone?).

                                      But I think I'm in a position to answer your concerns about SVG.

                                      Stephen Quintero wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I guess it's a sore spot. Since I asked the original question,
                                      I'll put in
                                      > my last 2 cents.
                                      >
                                      > I've more than a 1,000 hours invested in a commercial tool which
                                      relies
                                      > heavily on SVG (and it's in alpha). It is all built with open
                                      standards
                                      > tech. It works (though not identically in all browsers and not at
                                      all in
                                      > Safari).

                                      WebKit is putting serious effort into improving its SVG implementation,
                                      to the point that Apple has recently joined the SVG Working Group. I
                                      would expect to see marked improvement in Safari within the year (no
                                      insider information, I just know from the trades that lots of Apple
                                      resources have been diverted to push out other Apple products).

                                      > If I worked in academia or government that would be then end of it
                                      - I could
                                      > just dictate, "if you want to use it then do this, if not too
                                      bad". But
                                      > really, in my circumstances, it's too bad for me.
                                      >
                                      > I would, of course, like something users trust, works reliably in
                                      different
                                      > browser/OS combinations and is robust. I would like to stay with SVG
                                      > because of my investment, because it is open standard, etc. At
                                      this point,
                                      > SVG is like early HTML - you have to code for different browsers
                                      and limit
                                      > your functionality, but it does fabulous things. If it were
                                      maturing driven
                                      > by user demand and killer apps, that would be just fine. But I
                                      have this
                                      > nagging feeling I need to be prepared in case it is eaten by
                                      Godzilla.

                                      SVG is not going away. You can put that fear to rest. If you are
                                      worried about support in IE, that's an open question.

                                      I am hoping that there is still interest in the IE team to implement
                                      SVG; they are a separate division from the Silverlight team, and they
                                      recently came back to the standards table with what seems to be good
                                      will. As a strategic move, they could even benefit from implementing
                                      SVG; it is very similar to Silverlight (hmmm.... wonder why?), more so
                                      than Flash, and may help shift vector technologies in that direction.
                                      It would be a good PR move, and provide an open alternative for those
                                      that need or desire that. And if the pie is split 3 ways instead of 2,
                                      that will cut in Silverlight's favor.

                                      But let's assume that IE doesn't implement SVG natively. There are
                                      several SVG implementations under active development, not the least of
                                      which is the ever-improving Renesis player, which aim to provide
                                      advanced support for SVG in IE (if only as a plug-in... which, remember,
                                      is how Silverlight is distributed).

                                      As a financial concern, it's prudent of you to investigate if
                                      Silverlight will also work for you (if only as a backup plan); I suspect
                                      the conversion will not be profound, but you'll have to research that
                                      yourself.

                                      > This is a relevant concern and question for many people who work
                                      with SVG,
                                      > hence my post here. It can even reasonably be considered a
                                      technical issue
                                      > with SVG. If you are riding a horse and it croaks under you, that
                                      is a
                                      > technical failure.
                                      >
                                      > Yes, I hoped to elicit a more thorough and calm response
                                      describing the
                                      > limits of functionality of Silverlight by way of comparison. And
                                      even some
                                      > insight into the market and why SVG is here to stay (particularly
                                      in IE).
                                      > But, you get what you get.

                                      I suspect most people who are interested in SVG are leary of YAPVF (yet
                                      another proprietary vector format), and Silverlight is still pretty new.
                                      I imagine that there will be more intelligent discussion of the
                                      subject here in coming months.

                                      > Some rats row, some rats flee the ship, some rats pretend
                                      everything is
                                      > okay. I hope it is. If it weren't for the abandonment of ASV, I would
                                      > certainly think so. Given a decent chance, open standards tools
                                      have proven
                                      > themselves. But without ongoing development in IE 6/7, which is
                                      3/4 of the
                                      > market, then there is undoubted concern.

                                      ASV was not the only game in town, and their tepid support ultimately
                                      did more harm than good to SVG in the latter years. Lines are
                                      definitely being drawn in this space, and I expect a lot of movement
                                      from all related technologies. There is a commercial drive in SVG, just
                                      as there is in the others.

                                      > For better or worse, I have to make my software work for Joe and
                                      Sally who
                                      > use the internet for web-surfing and shopping. Not for CS students
                                      and
                                      > Linux geeks.

                                      A few years ago, I might have agreed that SVG was academic and more
                                      purist than practical. But I see more support and more market relevance
                                      for it now.

                                      Regards-
                                      -Doug





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Doug Schepers
                                      Hi, Geoffrey- You ve really pushed my patience to the edge. This list is for questions about SVG development. It s not a forum for you to rant against SVG or
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 28, 2007
                                        Hi, Geoffrey-

                                        You've really pushed my patience to the edge.

                                        This list is for questions about SVG development. It's not a forum for
                                        you to rant against SVG or promote other technologies. As I said
                                        before, there are constructive ways to have such conversations, but you
                                        are willfully avoiding them.

                                        Anyone who has truly been reading this list for the past 3 years, 2
                                        years, 1 year, 6 months, 3 months, or even a single month cannot help
                                        but to see the "SVG is dead" permathread (at least one of which was
                                        started by you), including copious emails regarding the foundering
                                        status of the Adobe plug-in. I would hardly describe the reaction on
                                        this list as "rosy". One need only to search through the archives to
                                        see thread after thread devoted to this. And yet somehow, doomsayers
                                        aside, SVG is still becoming more widely implemented, and those
                                        implementations are steadily improving.

                                        This list is never going to advocate transition to some other technology
                                        (unless SVG is simply not suitable for the task at hand, as is sometimes
                                        the case). If ever SVG fails, if "the market decides" there is no room
                                        for a cross-platform, open-standards vector graphics language, this list
                                        will simply close. You seem to have already found your next passion,
                                        and if you are not interested in SVG, I suggest this may no longer be
                                        the list for you.

                                        You consider the time you have spent on SVG wasted; similarly, I
                                        consider the time I have spent reading and replying to your inflammatory
                                        messages a waste of my time. I suspect that you have gotten more out of
                                        learning SVG than the rest of us have gotten from the superficial
                                        contents of your recent messages. I politely asked you to
                                        self-moderate, which you agreed to do; you have not honored your
                                        promise, and I have thus set your posting privileges to "moderated"
                                        status. If you have something constructive to say, I will allow the
                                        post to go through.

                                        Believe me, I was very reluctant to do this. You are only the 2nd
                                        person I've had to take such measures with (and the first was because of
                                        extremely foul language). But I reviewed your posting history, and
                                        while I do believe that participated in this group in good faith in the
                                        past, this thread does not reflect that good faith.

                                        I'm sure you're simply venting your frustration at what is admittedly a
                                        slow process (as all open standards are). I think it will ultimately be
                                        worth it, and I find SVG quite usable today. If you don't agree, I wish
                                        you well with whatever technology you think better suits your needs.

                                        To everyone else, I apologize for taking this action. I truly hate to
                                        be forced to moderate someone, but I feel that this was the only way to
                                        get this list back on track.

                                        Regards-
                                        -Doug

                                        Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
                                        > The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation & browser
                                        > that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to work around,
                                        > different code to load the SVG objects, etc. is why I cannot justify any
                                        > more work in SVG for my projects.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I want my implementations to be the same regardless of platform. I'm pretty
                                        > sure any movement going on in SVG is too little too late. Even if
                                        > Silverlight is not the way to go, it is going to be something else.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I built a SVG project and put several months of work into it before it
                                        > occurred to me that the Adobe SVG plugin had not been updated for years -
                                        > meaning Adobe had pretty much abandoned it. You would have never guessed
                                        > this from the dialog here on this list. The sky is blue, everything is rosy;
                                        > there are no problems with SVG. Nothing to see here.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Adobe could rectify the lack of SVG support in IE7 quite easily by updating
                                        > the plugin, but they obviously prefer not to advance this technology any
                                        > further.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > And then there is the lousy state of all of the open source SVG efforts that
                                        > are mostly way behind the antique Adobe plugin. At the current rate of
                                        > progress it will be at least two more years before all of the various
                                        > browsers will have most of the SVG features working in a consistent manner.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I am a little disconcerted that we are not going to get any help from this
                                        > list to migrate to whatever succeeds SVG. There is nothing wrong with the
                                        > list evolving along with the technology. For example, DSLreports becomes
                                        > BroadbandReports and keeps on helping people with broadband issues rather
                                        > than staying stuck on one small thing.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The next wave of the internet will be come from some sort of new graphical
                                        > rendering language. I had hoped it would be SVG, but it looks dead. Please
                                        > don't shoot the messengers.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In any case I am sick and tired of the limitations of HTML, shackled by
                                        > glacially slow standards progress and reliance on inefficient bitmapped
                                        > graphics. Something more is needed.
                                        >
                                      • "~:'' ありがとうございました
                                        Doug, once again I feel you are taking yourself, the list, its members and SVG far too seriously. get a life and live a little. there s plenty wrong with SVG
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 28, 2007
                                          Doug,

                                          once again I feel you are taking yourself, the list, its members and
                                          SVG far too seriously.

                                          get a life and live a little. there's plenty wrong with SVG and the
                                          W3C process.

                                          it may well be that not everyone can express their concerns as well
                                          as me, but honestly you must have something better to do than
                                          moderate flames.

                                          cheers

                                          Jonathan Chetwynd



                                          On 28 May 2007, at 09:46, Doug Schepers wrote:

                                          Hi, Geoffrey-

                                          You've really pushed my patience to the edge.

                                          This list is for questions about SVG development. It's not a forum for
                                          you to rant against SVG or promote other technologies. As I said
                                          before, there are constructive ways to have such conversations, but you
                                          are willfully avoiding them.

                                          Anyone who has truly been reading this list for the past 3 years, 2
                                          years, 1 year, 6 months, 3 months, or even a single month cannot help
                                          but to see the "SVG is dead" permathread (at least one of which was
                                          started by you), including copious emails regarding the foundering
                                          status of the Adobe plug-in. I would hardly describe the reaction on
                                          this list as "rosy". One need only to search through the archives to
                                          see thread after thread devoted to this. And yet somehow, doomsayers
                                          aside, SVG is still becoming more widely implemented, and those
                                          implementations are steadily improving.

                                          This list is never going to advocate transition to some other technology
                                          (unless SVG is simply not suitable for the task at hand, as is sometimes
                                          the case). If ever SVG fails, if "the market decides" there is no room
                                          for a cross-platform, open-standards vector graphics language, this list
                                          will simply close. You seem to have already found your next passion,
                                          and if you are not interested in SVG, I suggest this may no longer be
                                          the list for you.

                                          You consider the time you have spent on SVG wasted; similarly, I
                                          consider the time I have spent reading and replying to your inflammatory
                                          messages a waste of my time. I suspect that you have gotten more out of
                                          learning SVG than the rest of us have gotten from the superficial
                                          contents of your recent messages. I politely asked you to
                                          self-moderate, which you agreed to do; you have not honored your
                                          promise, and I have thus set your posting privileges to "moderated"
                                          status. If you have something constructive to say, I will allow the
                                          post to go through.

                                          Believe me, I was very reluctant to do this. You are only the 2nd
                                          person I've had to take such measures with (and the first was because of
                                          extremely foul language). But I reviewed your posting history, and
                                          while I do believe that participated in this group in good faith in the
                                          past, this thread does not reflect that good faith.

                                          I'm sure you're simply venting your frustration at what is admittedly a
                                          slow process (as all open standards are). I think it will ultimately be
                                          worth it, and I find SVG quite usable today. If you don't agree, I wish
                                          you well with whatever technology you think better suits your needs.

                                          To everyone else, I apologize for taking this action. I truly hate to
                                          be forced to moderate someone, but I feel that this was the only way to
                                          get this list back on track.

                                          Regards-
                                          -Doug

                                          Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
                                          > The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation &
                                          browser
                                          > that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to
                                          work around,
                                          > different code to load the SVG objects, etc. is why I cannot
                                          justify any
                                          > more work in SVG for my projects.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I want my implementations to be the same regardless of platform.
                                          I'm pretty
                                          > sure any movement going on in SVG is too little too late. Even if
                                          > Silverlight is not the way to go, it is going to be something else.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I built a SVG project and put several months of work into it
                                          before it
                                          > occurred to me that the Adobe SVG plugin had not been updated for
                                          years -
                                          > meaning Adobe had pretty much abandoned it. You would have never
                                          guessed
                                          > this from the dialog here on this list. The sky is blue,
                                          everything is rosy;
                                          > there are no problems with SVG. Nothing to see here.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Adobe could rectify the lack of SVG support in IE7 quite easily by
                                          updating
                                          > the plugin, but they obviously prefer not to advance this
                                          technology any
                                          > further.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > And then there is the lousy state of all of the open source SVG
                                          efforts that
                                          > are mostly way behind the antique Adobe plugin. At the current
                                          rate of
                                          > progress it will be at least two more years before all of the various
                                          > browsers will have most of the SVG features working in a
                                          consistent manner.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I am a little disconcerted that we are not going to get any help
                                          from this
                                          > list to migrate to whatever succeeds SVG. There is nothing wrong
                                          with the
                                          > list evolving along with the technology. For example, DSLreports
                                          becomes
                                          > BroadbandReports and keeps on helping people with broadband issues
                                          rather
                                          > than staying stuck on one small thing.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The next wave of the internet will be come from some sort of new
                                          graphical
                                          > rendering language. I had hoped it would be SVG, but it looks
                                          dead. Please
                                          > don't shoot the messengers.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > In any case I am sick and tired of the limitations of HTML,
                                          shackled by
                                          > glacially slow standards progress and reliance on inefficient
                                          bitmapped
                                          > graphics. Something more is needed.
                                          >
                                        • Doug Schepers
                                          Whatever. not everyone can express their concerns as well as me ... I guess you figured a joke would lighten the mood?
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 28, 2007
                                            Whatever.

                                            "not everyone can express their concerns as well as me"... I guess you
                                            figured a joke would lighten the mood?


                                            ~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote:
                                            > Doug,
                                            >
                                            > once again I feel you are taking yourself, the list, its members and
                                            > SVG far too seriously.
                                            >
                                            > get a life and live a little. there's plenty wrong with SVG and the
                                            > W3C process.
                                            >
                                            > it may well be that not everyone can express their concerns as well
                                            > as me, but honestly you must have something better to do than
                                            > moderate flames.
                                            >
                                            > cheers
                                            >
                                            > Jonathan Chetwynd
                                          • Guy Morton
                                            http://blogs.theage.com.au/thedailytruth/archives/2006/11/get.html I don t think anyone s saying SVG has no challenges ahead. I think a lot of people who are
                                            Message 21 of 24 , May 28, 2007
                                              http://blogs.theage.com.au/thedailytruth/archives/2006/11/get.html

                                              I don't think anyone's saying SVG has no challenges ahead. I think a
                                              lot of people who are interested in using SVG *want* to support the
                                              open standards of the w3c rather than have yet another promising
                                              standard bastardised and corporatised by M$.

                                              For the record, I doubt Silverlight will ever dominate the world.
                                              They will achieve some success in their Windows-only world with the
                                              pro-M$ developer crowd who doesn't care about standards or other
                                              OSes, but that'll be it. Flash will continue to be the dominant
                                              vector format for now.

                                              If Adobe were smart, they'd build SVG support into the flash plugin
                                              (as an add-on that's downloaded when SVG content is encountered
                                              perhaps) and screw M$ good and proper - all of a sudden SVG would
                                              have a fast modern player already installed in every IE out there and
                                              Silverlight would be playing a hell of a game of catch up. Adobe
                                              could do this without losing it's market for flash as they already
                                              have the most mature IDE for vector animation and they'd come out of
                                              it looking like the good guys for supporting open standards. Open-
                                              source flash generators don't appear to have done them any harm. How
                                              is SVG different from a practical point of view? There are even cheap
                                              Flash IDE replacements out there that don't seem to have dented their
                                              fortunes.

                                              Adobe is a pretty smart company so it may still happen (Hi JD!).

                                              And really, I think the tide is turning against M$. Vista was a huge
                                              yawn, IE7 is a joke and I don't believe they're getting much traction
                                              with Silverlight. They are a bloated aging dinosaur and out of step
                                              with where the world is heading.

                                              Guy


                                              On 29/05/2007, at 6:17 AM, ~:'' ありがとうございました。
                                              wrote:

                                              > Doug,
                                              >
                                              > once again I feel you are taking yourself, the list, its members and
                                              > SVG far too seriously.
                                              >
                                              > get a life and live a little. there's plenty wrong with SVG and the
                                              > W3C process.
                                              >
                                              > it may well be that not everyone can express their concerns as well
                                              > as me, but honestly you must have something better to do than
                                              > moderate flames.
                                              >
                                              > cheers
                                              >
                                              > Jonathan Chetwynd
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On 28 May 2007, at 09:46, Doug Schepers wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi, Geoffrey-
                                              >
                                              > You've really pushed my patience to the edge.
                                              >
                                              > This list is for questions about SVG development. It's not a forum for
                                              > you to rant against SVG or promote other technologies. As I said
                                              > before, there are constructive ways to have such conversations, but
                                              > you
                                              > are willfully avoiding them.
                                              >
                                              > Anyone who has truly been reading this list for the past 3 years, 2
                                              > years, 1 year, 6 months, 3 months, or even a single month cannot help
                                              > but to see the "SVG is dead" permathread (at least one of which was
                                              > started by you), including copious emails regarding the foundering
                                              > status of the Adobe plug-in. I would hardly describe the reaction on
                                              > this list as "rosy". One need only to search through the archives to
                                              > see thread after thread devoted to this. And yet somehow, doomsayers
                                              > aside, SVG is still becoming more widely implemented, and those
                                              > implementations are steadily improving.
                                              >
                                              > This list is never going to advocate transition to some other
                                              > technology
                                              > (unless SVG is simply not suitable for the task at hand, as is
                                              > sometimes
                                              > the case). If ever SVG fails, if "the market decides" there is no room
                                              > for a cross-platform, open-standards vector graphics language, this
                                              > list
                                              > will simply close. You seem to have already found your next passion,
                                              > and if you are not interested in SVG, I suggest this may no longer be
                                              > the list for you.
                                              >
                                              > You consider the time you have spent on SVG wasted; similarly, I
                                              > consider the time I have spent reading and replying to your
                                              > inflammatory
                                              > messages a waste of my time. I suspect that you have gotten more
                                              > out of
                                              > learning SVG than the rest of us have gotten from the superficial
                                              > contents of your recent messages. I politely asked you to
                                              > self-moderate, which you agreed to do; you have not honored your
                                              > promise, and I have thus set your posting privileges to "moderated"
                                              > status. If you have something constructive to say, I will allow the
                                              > post to go through.
                                              >
                                              > Believe me, I was very reluctant to do this. You are only the 2nd
                                              > person I've had to take such measures with (and the first was
                                              > because of
                                              > extremely foul language). But I reviewed your posting history, and
                                              > while I do believe that participated in this group in good faith in
                                              > the
                                              > past, this thread does not reflect that good faith.
                                              >
                                              > I'm sure you're simply venting your frustration at what is
                                              > admittedly a
                                              > slow process (as all open standards are). I think it will
                                              > ultimately be
                                              > worth it, and I find SVG quite usable today. If you don't agree, I
                                              > wish
                                              > you well with whatever technology you think better suits your needs.
                                              >
                                              > To everyone else, I apologize for taking this action. I truly hate to
                                              > be forced to moderate someone, but I feel that this was the only
                                              > way to
                                              > get this list back on track.
                                              >
                                              > Regards-
                                              > -Doug
                                              >
                                              > Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
                                              >> The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation &
                                              > browser
                                              >> that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to
                                              > work around,
                                              >> different code to load the SVG objects, etc. is why I cannot
                                              > justify any
                                              >> more work in SVG for my projects.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> I want my implementations to be the same regardless of platform.
                                              > I'm pretty
                                              >> sure any movement going on in SVG is too little too late. Even if
                                              >> Silverlight is not the way to go, it is going to be something else.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> I built a SVG project and put several months of work into it
                                              > before it
                                              >> occurred to me that the Adobe SVG plugin had not been updated for
                                              > years -
                                              >> meaning Adobe had pretty much abandoned it. You would have never
                                              > guessed
                                              >> this from the dialog here on this list. The sky is blue,
                                              > everything is rosy;
                                              >> there are no problems with SVG. Nothing to see here.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> Adobe could rectify the lack of SVG support in IE7 quite easily by
                                              > updating
                                              >> the plugin, but they obviously prefer not to advance this
                                              > technology any
                                              >> further.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> And then there is the lousy state of all of the open source SVG
                                              > efforts that
                                              >> are mostly way behind the antique Adobe plugin. At the current
                                              > rate of
                                              >> progress it will be at least two more years before all of the various
                                              >> browsers will have most of the SVG features working in a
                                              > consistent manner.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> I am a little disconcerted that we are not going to get any help
                                              > from this
                                              >> list to migrate to whatever succeeds SVG. There is nothing wrong
                                              > with the
                                              >> list evolving along with the technology. For example, DSLreports
                                              > becomes
                                              >> BroadbandReports and keeps on helping people with broadband issues
                                              > rather
                                              >> than staying stuck on one small thing.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> The next wave of the internet will be come from some sort of new
                                              > graphical
                                              >> rendering language. I had hoped it would be SVG, but it looks
                                              > dead. Please
                                              >> don't shoot the messengers.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> In any case I am sick and tired of the limitations of HTML,
                                              > shackled by
                                              >> glacially slow standards progress and reliance on inefficient
                                              > bitmapped
                                              >> graphics. Something more is needed.
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----
                                              > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
                                              > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > -or-
                                              > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
                                              > my membership"
                                              > ----
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Claus Wahlers
                                              ... Actually i did just that quite a while back: http://deng.com.br/ http://wahlers.com.br/claus/blog/display-svg-in-97-of-all-web-browsers/ The idea was to
                                              Message 22 of 24 , May 28, 2007
                                                > If Adobe were smart, they'd build SVG support into the flash plugin
                                                > (as an add-on that's downloaded when SVG content is encountered
                                                > perhaps)

                                                Actually i did just that quite a while back:

                                                http://deng.com.br/
                                                http://wahlers.com.br/claus/blog/display-svg-in-97-of-all-web-browsers/

                                                The idea was to use the Flash Player solely as a virtual machine, to
                                                have it render open formats such as SVG.

                                                Cheers,
                                                Claus.
                                              • Guy Morton
                                                Yes, Claus, I d actually seen this once before. What is the status with it? Perhaps this is a project the SVG community ought to be trying to help push
                                                Message 23 of 24 , May 28, 2007
                                                  Yes, Claus, I'd actually seen this once before. What is the status
                                                  with it? Perhaps this is a project the SVG community ought to be
                                                  trying to help push forward?

                                                  Guy

                                                  On 29/05/2007, at 8:30 AM, Claus Wahlers wrote:

                                                  >
                                                  >> If Adobe were smart, they'd build SVG support into the flash plugin
                                                  >> (as an add-on that's downloaded when SVG content is encountered
                                                  >> perhaps)
                                                  >
                                                  > Actually i did just that quite a while back:
                                                  >
                                                  > http://deng.com.br/
                                                  > http://wahlers.com.br/claus/blog/display-svg-in-97-of-all-web-
                                                  > browsers/
                                                  >
                                                  > The idea was to use the Flash Player solely as a virtual machine, to
                                                  > have it render open formats such as SVG.
                                                  >
                                                  > Cheers,
                                                  > Claus.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > -----
                                                  > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
                                                  > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > -or-
                                                  > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
                                                  > my membership"
                                                  > ----
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Domenico Strazzullo
                                                  ... Doug, don t do that. The list risks imploding, cutting itself out of the realities. The guys are expressing their deceptions and their hanger. The SVG
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jun 4, 2007
                                                    --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Schepers <doug@...> wrote:

                                                    > ...I politely asked you to
                                                    > self-moderate, which you agreed to do; you have not honored your
                                                    > promise, and I have thus set your posting privileges to "moderated"
                                                    > status. If you have something constructive to say, I will allow
                                                    > the post to go through.

                                                    Doug, don't do that. The list risks imploding, cutting itself out of
                                                    the realities. The guys are expressing their deceptions and their
                                                    hanger. The SVG evangelists list not having quite made it, this list
                                                    has always been de facto a discussion forum as well as a tech list.
                                                    As you pointed out, Geoffrey is not a viral agent and must be allowed
                                                    to speak, fault of which they can claim this list is not democratic.
                                                    We can answer and we do answer. We are not short of arguments. If you
                                                    feel Geoffrey has pushed your patience to the edge, then maybe next
                                                    time I'll take him and he'll be all set.

                                                    The thing is that some developers just make a living with their jobs,
                                                    which is great, and their arguments are justified under that
                                                    perspective. Some others also have a mission. If there's a mission
                                                    there's a spirit and, trust me, the spirit is perfectly safe. There's
                                                    no way you can kill a spirit; if ever, it can only die out
                                                    spontaneously. Any attempt to kill fatally results in strengthening
                                                    it.

                                                    I mean, the discussion is so vast, some developers have a philosophy
                                                    of life and a philosophy of work, some others do not have any
                                                    philosophy; they live without; they might even not have any books in
                                                    their homes; they get excited with this, with that; they often have
                                                    revelations for others; they often work for the mass market or they
                                                    often work for companies that target the mass market; some companies
                                                    see the whole of the world's population as mass market and whish it
                                                    could, or think it should, consume RIA in the same manner and
                                                    quantity as they consume toilet paper, which, needless to say, is a
                                                    very noble goal for humanity.

                                                    SVG has no common goal with those people. But it's also true that SVG
                                                    desperately needs wide spread, good rendering engines. Maybe the
                                                    tortoise needs to be kicked harder, one way or another...

                                                    Domenico



                                                    >
                                                    > Hi, Geoffrey-
                                                    >
                                                    > You've really pushed my patience to the edge.
                                                    >
                                                    > This list is for questions about SVG development. It's not a forum
                                                    for
                                                    > you to rant against SVG or promote other technologies. As I said
                                                    > before, there are constructive ways to have such conversations, but
                                                    you
                                                    > are willfully avoiding them.
                                                    >
                                                    > Anyone who has truly been reading this list for the past 3 years, 2
                                                    > years, 1 year, 6 months, 3 months, or even a single month cannot
                                                    help
                                                    > but to see the "SVG is dead" permathread (at least one of which was
                                                    > started by you), including copious emails regarding the foundering
                                                    > status of the Adobe plug-in. I would hardly describe the reaction
                                                    on
                                                    > this list as "rosy". One need only to search through the archives
                                                    to
                                                    > see thread after thread devoted to this. And yet somehow,
                                                    doomsayers
                                                    > aside, SVG is still becoming more widely implemented, and those
                                                    > implementations are steadily improving.
                                                    >
                                                    > This list is never going to advocate transition to some other
                                                    technology
                                                    > (unless SVG is simply not suitable for the task at hand, as is
                                                    sometimes
                                                    > the case). If ever SVG fails, if "the market decides" there is no
                                                    room
                                                    > for a cross-platform, open-standards vector graphics language, this
                                                    list
                                                    > will simply close. You seem to have already found your next
                                                    passion,
                                                    > and if you are not interested in SVG, I suggest this may no longer
                                                    be
                                                    > the list for you.
                                                    >
                                                    > You consider the time you have spent on SVG wasted; similarly, I
                                                    > consider the time I have spent reading and replying to your
                                                    inflammatory
                                                    > messages a waste of my time. I suspect that you have gotten more
                                                    out of
                                                    > learning SVG than the rest of us have gotten from the superficial
                                                    > contents of your recent messages. I politely asked you to
                                                    > self-moderate, which you agreed to do; you have not honored your
                                                    > promise, and I have thus set your posting privileges to "moderated"
                                                    > status. If you have something constructive to say, I will allow
                                                    the
                                                    > post to go through.
                                                    >
                                                    > Believe me, I was very reluctant to do this. You are only the 2nd
                                                    > person I've had to take such measures with (and the first was
                                                    because of
                                                    > extremely foul language). But I reviewed your posting history, and
                                                    > while I do believe that participated in this group in good faith in
                                                    the
                                                    > past, this thread does not reflect that good faith.
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm sure you're simply venting your frustration at what is
                                                    admittedly a
                                                    > slow process (as all open standards are). I think it will
                                                    ultimately be
                                                    > worth it, and I find SVG quite usable today. If you don't agree, I
                                                    wish
                                                    > you well with whatever technology you think better suits your needs.
                                                    >
                                                    > To everyone else, I apologize for taking this action. I truly hate
                                                    to
                                                    > be forced to moderate someone, but I feel that this was the only
                                                    way to
                                                    > get this list back on track.
                                                    >
                                                    > Regards-
                                                    > -Doug
                                                    >
                                                    > Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
                                                    > > The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation
                                                    & browser
                                                    > > that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to
                                                    work around,
                                                    > > different code to load the SVG objects, etc. is why I cannot
                                                    justify any
                                                    > > more work in SVG for my projects.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I want my implementations to be the same regardless of platform.
                                                    I'm pretty
                                                    > > sure any movement going on in SVG is too little too late. Even if
                                                    > > Silverlight is not the way to go, it is going to be something
                                                    else.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I built a SVG project and put several months of work into it
                                                    before it
                                                    > > occurred to me that the Adobe SVG plugin had not been updated for
                                                    years -
                                                    > > meaning Adobe had pretty much abandoned it. You would have never
                                                    guessed
                                                    > > this from the dialog here on this list. The sky is blue,
                                                    everything is rosy;
                                                    > > there are no problems with SVG. Nothing to see here.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Adobe could rectify the lack of SVG support in IE7 quite easily
                                                    by updating
                                                    > > the plugin, but they obviously prefer not to advance this
                                                    technology any
                                                    > > further.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > And then there is the lousy state of all of the open source SVG
                                                    efforts that
                                                    > > are mostly way behind the antique Adobe plugin. At the current
                                                    rate of
                                                    > > progress it will be at least two more years before all of the
                                                    various
                                                    > > browsers will have most of the SVG features working in a
                                                    consistent manner.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I am a little disconcerted that we are not going to get any help
                                                    from this
                                                    > > list to migrate to whatever succeeds SVG. There is nothing wrong
                                                    with the
                                                    > > list evolving along with the technology. For example, DSLreports
                                                    becomes
                                                    > > BroadbandReports and keeps on helping people with broadband
                                                    issues rather
                                                    > > than staying stuck on one small thing.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The next wave of the internet will be come from some sort of new
                                                    graphical
                                                    > > rendering language. I had hoped it would be SVG, but it looks
                                                    dead. Please
                                                    > > don't shoot the messengers.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > In any case I am sick and tired of the limitations of HTML,
                                                    shackled by
                                                    > > glacially slow standards progress and reliance on inefficient
                                                    bitmapped
                                                    > > graphics. Something more is needed.
                                                    > >
                                                    >
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