Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [svg-developers] What do you love and hate about Inkscape ? (getting coders and clickers to coop

Expand Messages
  • Charles McCathieNevile
    ... Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things about it, but there are a couple of things I don t like: 1. Too much precision in
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:38:00 +0530, steltenpower <yahoo@...> wrote:

      > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
      > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
      > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
      >
      > Is Inkscape wrong for you?

      Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things about it,
      but there are a couple of things I don't like:

      1. Too much precision in values. Often I would rather have things forced to *lower*
      precision, for easy code readability, manipulation, and small file size.

      Being able to set the precision would be nice.

      2. Too much stuff added in magic namespaces that doesn't seem to do anything.

      Being able to export to "clean SVG" (optionally with a choice of target version)
      would be nice.

      When I hand-edit the code I often get a reduction of around one order of
      magnitude for no loss...

      cheers

      Chaals

      --
      Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group
      hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk
      chaals@... Try Opera 9.1 http://opera.com
    • Jonathan Chetwynd
      Chaals and others.. a thread on this topic was started here: http://sourceforge.net/ mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=37178316 and a feature request filed today
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Chaals and others..

        a thread on this topic was started here: http://sourceforge.net/
        mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=37178316

        and a feature request filed today ~:"
        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
        func=detail&aid=1653534&group_id=93438&atid=604309

        cheers

        Jonathan Chetwynd



        On 6 Feb 2007, at 14:58, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:

        On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:38:00 +0530, steltenpower
        <yahoo@...> wrote:

        > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
        > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
        > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
        >
        > Is Inkscape wrong for you?

        Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things
        about it,
        but there are a couple of things I don't like:

        1. Too much precision in values. Often I would rather have things
        forced to *lower*
        precision, for easy code readability, manipulation, and small file size.

        Being able to set the precision would be nice.

        2. Too much stuff added in magic namespaces that doesn't seem to do
        anything.

        Being able to export to "clean SVG" (optionally with a choice of
        target version)
        would be nice.

        When I hand-edit the code I often get a reduction of around one order of
        magnitude for no loss...

        cheers

        Chaals

        --
        Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group
        hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk
        chaals@... Try Opera 9.1 http://opera.com
      • Jonathan Chetwynd
        It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and basic accessibility isn t included later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
          basic accessibility isn't included
          later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
          microformat conceptually.

          having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
          commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it and
          it ties users into buying upgrades.

          however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
          interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.
          in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
          version? (OLPC?)
          http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
          func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309

          since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0 and
          the user as author.
          this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in a
          game-like experience.

          it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

          regards

          Jonathan Chetwynd



          On 6 Feb 2007, at 06:08, steltenpower wrote:

          Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
          Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
          that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.

          Is Inkscape wrong for you?
          Why?
          When?

          Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
          Inkscape?
          Why?
          When?

          Could things be improved?
          Do you have specific suggestions?
          Ideas for implementation strategies?

          That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
          You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present about
          what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
          problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things

          And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
        • Andreas Neumann
          ... Thats a very general statement that isn t really supported by facts. I don t think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific use cases, but for
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            > It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
            > basic accessibility isn't included
            > later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
            > microformat conceptually.

            Thats a very general statement that isn't really supported by facts.
            I don't think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific
            use cases, but for other use cases it definitely isn't bloated. I
            can't really say that any SVG 1.1 feature is useless. If you can,
            which one would you choose to abandon? I am sure many people would
            object.

            As to later specs: The SVG WG would have prefered to outsource
            certain features to other W3C WGs/specs, but at the time SVG 1.2 was
            designed there was nothing around that would fit the needs. It is
            certainly true that certain features in SVG 1.2 would be better
            standardized outside the scope of SVG, but someone has to take the
            lead and do the work. Over time, this will happen anyway.

            > having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
            > commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it
            and
            > it ties users into buying upgrades.
            >
            > however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
            > interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.

            But that's another target audience. I agree that children prefer
            other user interfaces, but the inkscape folks are probably not
            targetting kids.


            > in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
            > version? (OLPC?)
            > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
            > func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309
            >
            > since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0
            and
            > the user as author.
            > this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in
            a
            > game-like experience.
            >
            > it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

            that can and should be done for a different target audience and maybe
            as a different product, or a fork of the product.

            Andreas
          • Jonathan Chetwynd
            Andreas, where are the facts that demonstrate the popularity of the SVG1.1 spec that you are referring to? I m referring to a spec that helps the average joe
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Andreas,

              where are the facts that demonstrate the popularity of the SVG1.1
              spec that you are referring to?

              I'm referring to a spec that helps the average joe on the street to
              author.
              presumably you know of ms paint, did you perhaps visit http://
              www.isketch.org
              by these standards the SVG1.1 spec is extremely bloated.

              Where is the authoring tool that anyone can just pick up and use? say
              comparable with the many text editors or tuxpaint?

              and it's not just that the developers got carried away with feature
              bloat, it's that accessibility got buried at the same time.

              you fail to mention the accessibility issues.
              there still isn't any accessibility software such as a screen reader
              that operates with any SVG viewer. After how many years?
              keyboard navigation is being bolted on as an after-thought, in part
              because I filed bugs and pester regularly
              audio wasn't included, and yet macromedia's flash took off...
              you've found a particular niche, but be aware it isn't the only one,
              games frequently rely on sound as do films and animation.
              take a look at tuxpaint to hear how sound can be integrated into the
              authoring environment, to literally make music as you draw.

              there are many other accessibility issues and it's not at all clear
              how these will be resolved so very late in the day....

              regards

              Jonathan Chetwynd



              On 6 Feb 2007, at 20:23, Andreas Neumann wrote:


              > It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
              > basic accessibility isn't included
              > later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
              > microformat conceptually.

              Thats a very general statement that isn't really supported by facts.
              I don't think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific
              use cases, but for other use cases it definitely isn't bloated. I
              can't really say that any SVG 1.1 feature is useless. If you can,
              which one would you choose to abandon? I am sure many people would
              object.

              As to later specs: The SVG WG would have prefered to outsource
              certain features to other W3C WGs/specs, but at the time SVG 1.2 was
              designed there was nothing around that would fit the needs. It is
              certainly true that certain features in SVG 1.2 would be better
              standardized outside the scope of SVG, but someone has to take the
              lead and do the work. Over time, this will happen anyway.

              > having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
              > commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it
              and
              > it ties users into buying upgrades.
              >
              > however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
              > interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.

              But that's another target audience. I agree that children prefer
              other user interfaces, but the inkscape folks are probably not
              targetting kids.

              > in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
              > version? (OLPC?)
              > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
              > func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309
              >
              > since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0
              and
              > the user as author.
              > this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in
              a
              > game-like experience.
              >
              > it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

              that can and should be done for a different target audience and maybe
              as a different product, or a fork of the product.

              Andreas
            • Jayne De Sesa
              Hi, I ve uploaded a file here (ActiveX.png) that shows my difficulty with using Inkscape. It s a headache to install on my Mac!
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi,

                I've uploaded a file here (ActiveX.png) that shows my difficulty with using Inkscape. It's a
                headache to install on my Mac!

                --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "steltenpower" <yahoo@...> wrote:
                >
                > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
                > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
                > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
                >
                > Is Inkscape wrong for you?
                > Why?
                > When?
                >
                > Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
                > Inkscape?
                > Why?
                > When?
                >
                > Could things be improved?
                > Do you have specific suggestions?
                > Ideas for implementation strategies?
                >
                > That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
                > You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present about
                > what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
                > problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things
                >
                > And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
                >
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.