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Re: What do you love and hate about Inkscape ? (getting coders and clickers to coop

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  • Andreas Neumann
    I think Inkscape is a very powerful editor that is already good but several things could be improved. What I like: * based on SVG * many features *
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
      I think Inkscape is a very powerful editor that is already good but
      several things could be improved.

      What I like:
      * based on SVG
      * many features
      * multi-platform
      * free
      * XML Editor to access source tree
      * all the powerful path operations (simplify, union, intersect, etc.)

      What should be improved:
      * I don't like the way they write all presentation attributes into
      the style attribute. I would like a setting where all the attributes
      are written out as presentation attributes. This shouldn't be to hard
      to implement
      * nested svgs with viewBoxes aren't handled correctly, this is quite
      typical with mapping data. I could provide examples if someone works
      on this.

      Just my two cents ...
      Andreas



      --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "steltenpower" <yahoo@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
      > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
      > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
      >
      > Is Inkscape wrong for you?
      > Why?
      > When?
      >
      > Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
      > Inkscape?
      > Why?
      > When?
      >
      > Could things be improved?
      > Do you have specific suggestions?
      > Ideas for implementation strategies?
      >
      > That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
      > You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present
      about
      > what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
      > problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things
      >
      > And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
      >
    • Charles McCathieNevile
      ... Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things about it, but there are a couple of things I don t like: 1. Too much precision in
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
        On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:38:00 +0530, steltenpower <yahoo@...> wrote:

        > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
        > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
        > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
        >
        > Is Inkscape wrong for you?

        Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things about it,
        but there are a couple of things I don't like:

        1. Too much precision in values. Often I would rather have things forced to *lower*
        precision, for easy code readability, manipulation, and small file size.

        Being able to set the precision would be nice.

        2. Too much stuff added in magic namespaces that doesn't seem to do anything.

        Being able to export to "clean SVG" (optionally with a choice of target version)
        would be nice.

        When I hand-edit the code I often get a reduction of around one order of
        magnitude for no loss...

        cheers

        Chaals

        --
        Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group
        hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk
        chaals@... Try Opera 9.1 http://opera.com
      • Jonathan Chetwynd
        Chaals and others.. a thread on this topic was started here: http://sourceforge.net/ mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=37178316 and a feature request filed today
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
          Chaals and others..

          a thread on this topic was started here: http://sourceforge.net/
          mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=37178316

          and a feature request filed today ~:"
          http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
          func=detail&aid=1653534&group_id=93438&atid=604309

          cheers

          Jonathan Chetwynd



          On 6 Feb 2007, at 14:58, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:

          On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:38:00 +0530, steltenpower
          <yahoo@...> wrote:

          > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
          > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
          > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
          >
          > Is Inkscape wrong for you?

          Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things
          about it,
          but there are a couple of things I don't like:

          1. Too much precision in values. Often I would rather have things
          forced to *lower*
          precision, for easy code readability, manipulation, and small file size.

          Being able to set the precision would be nice.

          2. Too much stuff added in magic namespaces that doesn't seem to do
          anything.

          Being able to export to "clean SVG" (optionally with a choice of
          target version)
          would be nice.

          When I hand-edit the code I often get a reduction of around one order of
          magnitude for no loss...

          cheers

          Chaals

          --
          Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group
          hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk
          chaals@... Try Opera 9.1 http://opera.com
        • Jonathan Chetwynd
          It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and basic accessibility isn t included later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
            It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
            basic accessibility isn't included
            later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
            microformat conceptually.

            having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
            commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it and
            it ties users into buying upgrades.

            however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
            interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.
            in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
            version? (OLPC?)
            http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
            func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309

            since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0 and
            the user as author.
            this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in a
            game-like experience.

            it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

            regards

            Jonathan Chetwynd



            On 6 Feb 2007, at 06:08, steltenpower wrote:

            Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
            Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
            that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.

            Is Inkscape wrong for you?
            Why?
            When?

            Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
            Inkscape?
            Why?
            When?

            Could things be improved?
            Do you have specific suggestions?
            Ideas for implementation strategies?

            That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
            You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present about
            what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
            problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things

            And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
          • Andreas Neumann
            ... Thats a very general statement that isn t really supported by facts. I don t think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific use cases, but for
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
              > It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
              > basic accessibility isn't included
              > later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
              > microformat conceptually.

              Thats a very general statement that isn't really supported by facts.
              I don't think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific
              use cases, but for other use cases it definitely isn't bloated. I
              can't really say that any SVG 1.1 feature is useless. If you can,
              which one would you choose to abandon? I am sure many people would
              object.

              As to later specs: The SVG WG would have prefered to outsource
              certain features to other W3C WGs/specs, but at the time SVG 1.2 was
              designed there was nothing around that would fit the needs. It is
              certainly true that certain features in SVG 1.2 would be better
              standardized outside the scope of SVG, but someone has to take the
              lead and do the work. Over time, this will happen anyway.

              > having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
              > commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it
              and
              > it ties users into buying upgrades.
              >
              > however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
              > interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.

              But that's another target audience. I agree that children prefer
              other user interfaces, but the inkscape folks are probably not
              targetting kids.


              > in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
              > version? (OLPC?)
              > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
              > func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309
              >
              > since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0
              and
              > the user as author.
              > this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in
              a
              > game-like experience.
              >
              > it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

              that can and should be done for a different target audience and maybe
              as a different product, or a fork of the product.

              Andreas
            • Jonathan Chetwynd
              Andreas, where are the facts that demonstrate the popularity of the SVG1.1 spec that you are referring to? I m referring to a spec that helps the average joe
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
                Andreas,

                where are the facts that demonstrate the popularity of the SVG1.1
                spec that you are referring to?

                I'm referring to a spec that helps the average joe on the street to
                author.
                presumably you know of ms paint, did you perhaps visit http://
                www.isketch.org
                by these standards the SVG1.1 spec is extremely bloated.

                Where is the authoring tool that anyone can just pick up and use? say
                comparable with the many text editors or tuxpaint?

                and it's not just that the developers got carried away with feature
                bloat, it's that accessibility got buried at the same time.

                you fail to mention the accessibility issues.
                there still isn't any accessibility software such as a screen reader
                that operates with any SVG viewer. After how many years?
                keyboard navigation is being bolted on as an after-thought, in part
                because I filed bugs and pester regularly
                audio wasn't included, and yet macromedia's flash took off...
                you've found a particular niche, but be aware it isn't the only one,
                games frequently rely on sound as do films and animation.
                take a look at tuxpaint to hear how sound can be integrated into the
                authoring environment, to literally make music as you draw.

                there are many other accessibility issues and it's not at all clear
                how these will be resolved so very late in the day....

                regards

                Jonathan Chetwynd



                On 6 Feb 2007, at 20:23, Andreas Neumann wrote:


                > It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
                > basic accessibility isn't included
                > later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
                > microformat conceptually.

                Thats a very general statement that isn't really supported by facts.
                I don't think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific
                use cases, but for other use cases it definitely isn't bloated. I
                can't really say that any SVG 1.1 feature is useless. If you can,
                which one would you choose to abandon? I am sure many people would
                object.

                As to later specs: The SVG WG would have prefered to outsource
                certain features to other W3C WGs/specs, but at the time SVG 1.2 was
                designed there was nothing around that would fit the needs. It is
                certainly true that certain features in SVG 1.2 would be better
                standardized outside the scope of SVG, but someone has to take the
                lead and do the work. Over time, this will happen anyway.

                > having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
                > commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it
                and
                > it ties users into buying upgrades.
                >
                > however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
                > interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.

                But that's another target audience. I agree that children prefer
                other user interfaces, but the inkscape folks are probably not
                targetting kids.

                > in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
                > version? (OLPC?)
                > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
                > func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309
                >
                > since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0
                and
                > the user as author.
                > this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in
                a
                > game-like experience.
                >
                > it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

                that can and should be done for a different target audience and maybe
                as a different product, or a fork of the product.

                Andreas
              • Jayne De Sesa
                Hi, I ve uploaded a file here (ActiveX.png) that shows my difficulty with using Inkscape. It s a headache to install on my Mac!
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
                  Hi,

                  I've uploaded a file here (ActiveX.png) that shows my difficulty with using Inkscape. It's a
                  headache to install on my Mac!

                  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "steltenpower" <yahoo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
                  > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
                  > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
                  >
                  > Is Inkscape wrong for you?
                  > Why?
                  > When?
                  >
                  > Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
                  > Inkscape?
                  > Why?
                  > When?
                  >
                  > Could things be improved?
                  > Do you have specific suggestions?
                  > Ideas for implementation strategies?
                  >
                  > That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
                  > You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present about
                  > what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
                  > problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things
                  >
                  > And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
                  >
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