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Re: [svg-developers] What do you love and hate about Inkscape ? (getting coders and clickers to coop

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  • Martyn Eggleton
    I quiet like Inkscape but I have a few issues with it and indeed all the current SVG editors I know of. (I am happy to be pointed at editors that don t have
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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      I quiet like Inkscape but I have a few issues with it and indeed all
      the current SVG editors I know of. (I am happy to be pointed at editors
      that don't have these issues or indeed just be plain corrected if I'm
      wrtong or missing something)

      1. Inkscape
      1. Not having a straight source editor(the xml editor is great
      but being able to muck with the text directly would stop me
      having to have the file open in a text editor as well).
      2. having images with windows file paths.
      3. Not being able to base64 encode and embed images.
      2. Features I'd like to see in all editors

      1. The choice of which spec to work to. Being able to choose
      between SVG 1.0 / 1.1 / 1.2 and possibly SVGT and only be
      offered features that fall within those specs.
      2. Choice of target platform or at least target feature
      strings. i.e. being able to specify what you expect to work
      in the browser and only be offered features that fit that.
      3. Possibly even a choice of coding styles i.e. using classes
      for all styling or keeping the styling inline with the content.
      4. SVG font support.
      5. Command line switches / or permenant prefences for things
      like clean svg output and the above options.
      6. refactorors (AI's ability to change you code to produce the
      most effecinet reprentation of your image is great but only
      when you want it, the ability to turn this off would be good)

      Tar. for reminding me that I hadn't mentioned these to any one (they
      came up when a less SVG experienced colleauge ended up bashing his head
      against a wall trying to design a prototype in Inkscape pass it to a
      designer who used AI and then rasterize it in rsvg. Lots of random tags and

      steltenpower wrote:
      >
      > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
      > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
      > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
      >
      > Is Inkscape wrong for you?
      > Why?
      > When?
      >
      > Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
      > Inkscape?
      > Why?
      > When?
      >
      > Could things be improved?
      > Do you have specific suggestions?
      > Ideas for implementation strategies?
      >
      > That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
      > You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present about
      > what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
      > problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things
      >
      > And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andreas Neumann
      I think Inkscape is a very powerful editor that is already good but several things could be improved. What I like: * based on SVG * many features *
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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        I think Inkscape is a very powerful editor that is already good but
        several things could be improved.

        What I like:
        * based on SVG
        * many features
        * multi-platform
        * free
        * XML Editor to access source tree
        * all the powerful path operations (simplify, union, intersect, etc.)

        What should be improved:
        * I don't like the way they write all presentation attributes into
        the style attribute. I would like a setting where all the attributes
        are written out as presentation attributes. This shouldn't be to hard
        to implement
        * nested svgs with viewBoxes aren't handled correctly, this is quite
        typical with mapping data. I could provide examples if someone works
        on this.

        Just my two cents ...
        Andreas



        --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "steltenpower" <yahoo@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
        > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
        > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
        >
        > Is Inkscape wrong for you?
        > Why?
        > When?
        >
        > Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
        > Inkscape?
        > Why?
        > When?
        >
        > Could things be improved?
        > Do you have specific suggestions?
        > Ideas for implementation strategies?
        >
        > That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
        > You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present
        about
        > what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
        > problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things
        >
        > And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
        >
      • Charles McCathieNevile
        ... Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things about it, but there are a couple of things I don t like: 1. Too much precision in
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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          On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:38:00 +0530, steltenpower <yahoo@...> wrote:

          > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
          > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
          > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
          >
          > Is Inkscape wrong for you?

          Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things about it,
          but there are a couple of things I don't like:

          1. Too much precision in values. Often I would rather have things forced to *lower*
          precision, for easy code readability, manipulation, and small file size.

          Being able to set the precision would be nice.

          2. Too much stuff added in magic namespaces that doesn't seem to do anything.

          Being able to export to "clean SVG" (optionally with a choice of target version)
          would be nice.

          When I hand-edit the code I often get a reduction of around one order of
          magnitude for no loss...

          cheers

          Chaals

          --
          Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group
          hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk
          chaals@... Try Opera 9.1 http://opera.com
        • Jonathan Chetwynd
          Chaals and others.. a thread on this topic was started here: http://sourceforge.net/ mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=37178316 and a feature request filed today
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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            Chaals and others..

            a thread on this topic was started here: http://sourceforge.net/
            mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=37178316

            and a feature request filed today ~:"
            http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
            func=detail&aid=1653534&group_id=93438&atid=604309

            cheers

            Jonathan Chetwynd



            On 6 Feb 2007, at 14:58, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:

            On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:38:00 +0530, steltenpower
            <yahoo@...> wrote:

            > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
            > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
            > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
            >
            > Is Inkscape wrong for you?

            Sometimes. Other people have already explained a bunch of good things
            about it,
            but there are a couple of things I don't like:

            1. Too much precision in values. Often I would rather have things
            forced to *lower*
            precision, for easy code readability, manipulation, and small file size.

            Being able to set the precision would be nice.

            2. Too much stuff added in magic namespaces that doesn't seem to do
            anything.

            Being able to export to "clean SVG" (optionally with a choice of
            target version)
            would be nice.

            When I hand-edit the code I often get a reduction of around one order of
            magnitude for no loss...

            cheers

            Chaals

            --
            Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group
            hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk
            chaals@... Try Opera 9.1 http://opera.com
          • Jonathan Chetwynd
            It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and basic accessibility isn t included later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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              It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
              basic accessibility isn't included
              later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
              microformat conceptually.

              having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
              commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it and
              it ties users into buying upgrades.

              however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
              interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.
              in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
              version? (OLPC?)
              http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
              func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309

              since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0 and
              the user as author.
              this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in a
              game-like experience.

              it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

              regards

              Jonathan Chetwynd



              On 6 Feb 2007, at 06:08, steltenpower wrote:

              Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
              Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
              that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.

              Is Inkscape wrong for you?
              Why?
              When?

              Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
              Inkscape?
              Why?
              When?

              Could things be improved?
              Do you have specific suggestions?
              Ideas for implementation strategies?

              That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
              You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present about
              what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
              problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things

              And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
            • Andreas Neumann
              ... Thats a very general statement that isn t really supported by facts. I don t think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific use cases, but for
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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                > It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
                > basic accessibility isn't included
                > later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
                > microformat conceptually.

                Thats a very general statement that isn't really supported by facts.
                I don't think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific
                use cases, but for other use cases it definitely isn't bloated. I
                can't really say that any SVG 1.1 feature is useless. If you can,
                which one would you choose to abandon? I am sure many people would
                object.

                As to later specs: The SVG WG would have prefered to outsource
                certain features to other W3C WGs/specs, but at the time SVG 1.2 was
                designed there was nothing around that would fit the needs. It is
                certainly true that certain features in SVG 1.2 would be better
                standardized outside the scope of SVG, but someone has to take the
                lead and do the work. Over time, this will happen anyway.

                > having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
                > commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it
                and
                > it ties users into buying upgrades.
                >
                > however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
                > interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.

                But that's another target audience. I agree that children prefer
                other user interfaces, but the inkscape folks are probably not
                targetting kids.


                > in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
                > version? (OLPC?)
                > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
                > func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309
                >
                > since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0
                and
                > the user as author.
                > this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in
                a
                > game-like experience.
                >
                > it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

                that can and should be done for a different target audience and maybe
                as a different product, or a fork of the product.

                Andreas
              • Jonathan Chetwynd
                Andreas, where are the facts that demonstrate the popularity of the SVG1.1 spec that you are referring to? I m referring to a spec that helps the average joe
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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                  Andreas,

                  where are the facts that demonstrate the popularity of the SVG1.1
                  spec that you are referring to?

                  I'm referring to a spec that helps the average joe on the street to
                  author.
                  presumably you know of ms paint, did you perhaps visit http://
                  www.isketch.org
                  by these standards the SVG1.1 spec is extremely bloated.

                  Where is the authoring tool that anyone can just pick up and use? say
                  comparable with the many text editors or tuxpaint?

                  and it's not just that the developers got carried away with feature
                  bloat, it's that accessibility got buried at the same time.

                  you fail to mention the accessibility issues.
                  there still isn't any accessibility software such as a screen reader
                  that operates with any SVG viewer. After how many years?
                  keyboard navigation is being bolted on as an after-thought, in part
                  because I filed bugs and pester regularly
                  audio wasn't included, and yet macromedia's flash took off...
                  you've found a particular niche, but be aware it isn't the only one,
                  games frequently rely on sound as do films and animation.
                  take a look at tuxpaint to hear how sound can be integrated into the
                  authoring environment, to literally make music as you draw.

                  there are many other accessibility issues and it's not at all clear
                  how these will be resolved so very late in the day....

                  regards

                  Jonathan Chetwynd



                  On 6 Feb 2007, at 20:23, Andreas Neumann wrote:


                  > It has to be admitted the SVG1.1 spec is imho far too bloated and
                  > basic accessibility isn't included
                  > later specs are even more bloated, and I much prefer RAD and the
                  > microformat conceptually.

                  Thats a very general statement that isn't really supported by facts.
                  I don't think its bloated. It might be bloated for certain specific
                  use cases, but for other use cases it definitely isn't bloated. I
                  can't really say that any SVG 1.1 feature is useless. If you can,
                  which one would you choose to abandon? I am sure many people would
                  object.

                  As to later specs: The SVG WG would have prefered to outsource
                  certain features to other W3C WGs/specs, but at the time SVG 1.2 was
                  designed there was nothing around that would fit the needs. It is
                  certainly true that certain features in SVG 1.2 would be better
                  standardized outside the scope of SVG, but someone has to take the
                  lead and do the work. Over time, this will happen anyway.

                  > having said which, the inkscape interface is extremely busy.
                  > commercial applications develop bloat, because developers like it
                  and
                  > it ties users into buying upgrades.
                  >
                  > however many people, and children in particular prefer simpler
                  > interfaces such as "paint" or isketch.org.

                  But that's another target audience. I agree that children prefer
                  other user interfaces, but the inkscape folks are probably not
                  targetting kids.

                  > in 2004 after discussions with bryce: [ 1081266 ] Child friendly
                  > version? (OLPC?)
                  > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
                  > func=detail&aid=1081266&group_id=93438&atid=604309
                  >
                  > since 2006 the concept has been superceded or overtaken by web2.0
                  and
                  > the user as author.
                  > this could for instance include annotation, labelling and more in
                  a
                  > game-like experience.
                  >
                  > it would betray a confidence to describe the requirements further.

                  that can and should be done for a different target audience and maybe
                  as a different product, or a fork of the product.

                  Andreas
                • Jayne De Sesa
                  Hi, I ve uploaded a file here (ActiveX.png) that shows my difficulty with using Inkscape. It s a headache to install on my Mac!
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 6, 2007
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                    Hi,

                    I've uploaded a file here (ActiveX.png) that shows my difficulty with using Inkscape. It's a
                    headache to install on my Mac!

                    --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "steltenpower" <yahoo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Inkscape is a rather popular tool.
                    > Many artists use it a lot. Coders (of SVG webapplications) are not
                    > that much of fans, many rather handcode everything.
                    >
                    > Is Inkscape wrong for you?
                    > Why?
                    > When?
                    >
                    > Do you have problems with SVG that someone obviously created with
                    > Inkscape?
                    > Why?
                    > When?
                    >
                    > Could things be improved?
                    > Do you have specific suggestions?
                    > Ideas for implementation strategies?
                    >
                    > That would be helpful information for the Inkscape community.
                    > You could also go the LibreGraphicsMeeting and meet up, present about
                    > what SVG is used for apart from 'just pretty pictures' and show what
                    > problems Inkscape raises to SVGcoders, solve some things
                    >
                    > And of course coders are welcome to help improve through coding
                    >
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