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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Shit, or get of the pot

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  • Holger Will
    ... Dear Paul firefox is not my name, please try to learn to read ! ... as i said, SVG gives you the freedom to choose the implementation you like. on this
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
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      welkerpaul schrieb:

      > Dear Firefox Holger,

      Dear Paul
      firefox is not my name, please try to learn to read !

      > if this is a svg newsgroup the clients' os and browser
      > preferences
      > should be none of your business.

      as i said, SVG gives you the freedom to choose the implementation you
      like. on this list there are people using IE+ASV on windows, some prefer
      opera+ASV some use ASV on linux,
      again some people like Firefox native SVG support. others use ksvg , or
      are looking forward to using renesis, there are Mac users, Win 98 users
      and a lot more i forgot , im sure.
      im not trying to tell people what to use ! the only time i care about
      browser and os , is when i try to answer some technical questions, in
      that circumstance, its my buissness, since im trying to help.
      you dont seem to like any Viewer/OS combinations, and you are definitly
      not trying to help, sorry !

      > Eventually svg suffers from its insincere support? Actually svg
      > suffers from multiple sicknesses? It suffered from questionable
      > support driven by the occasion to prevent competition rather than
      > for its justified value (sounds like adobe?)? It suffered from w3c
      > whilst w3c has been leveraged to play with market interests? It
      > suffers from abuse? It suffers from abuse by its straightest
      > supporters, whilst propagated to serve collateral interests?

      ??? im sorry ? i cant really follow here ! what are you talking about ?
      do you have any "prove" or
      at least a logical explanation for any of your abuse and prevent
      competition stories ?
      (besides do you have a "!" key on your keybord ? a sentence like "It
      suffers from abuse?" is not questions! )

      > Mixed
      > up with open source misconceptions, spread ff campaigns and anti-
      > trust brawling?

      what are open source misconceptions ? whats so bad about spread ff
      campaingns ? and how do "antitrust brawlings" fit in here ?

      > Surprisingly it's not a European centric issue and

      what issue are you talking about here ?
      the "open source misconceptions" issue is not "European centric" ?
      the "spread ff campaigns" issue is not "European centric" ?
      the "antitrust brawlings" issue is not "European centric" ?

      > public funded
      > entities are rare svg supporters...

      like the "statistische Bundesamt"( the national statistics institute in
      germany) which is using SVG for example.

      > Looking forward to your chinese svg revolution,

      it looks like you got a little too much imagination, i said imagine that
      this would happen,
      i didnt say this will happen under any circumstace.

      > Paul

      looking forward to your answer to my questions.
      sincierly
      Holger "firefox" Will
    • Barend Köbben
      Holger look up the word paranoia in your dictionary and maybe also ranting , and maybe then welkerpaul makes sense... Barend anybrowserthatworksforme
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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        Holger

        look up the word 'paranoia' in your dictionary and maybe also 'ranting', and maybe then welkerpaul makes sense...


        Barend "anybrowserthatworksforme" Köbben
      • Holger Will
        ... ROFL :-) thanks for the tip. that helped a lot ! Holger thisisaquestion? Will
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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          Barend Köbben schrieb:

          > Holger
          >
          > look up the word 'paranoia' in your dictionary and maybe also
          > 'ranting', and maybe then welkerpaul makes sense...
          >
          >
          > Barend "anybrowserthatworksforme" Köbben
          >
          ROFL :-)

          thanks for the tip. that helped a lot !

          Holger "thisisaquestion?" Will
        • Bob Hunter
          ENOUGH !!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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            ENOUGH !!!



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Francis Hemsher
            Maybe you mean, ENOUGH ??? Yes, I must admit SVG is making me a bit nuts...It s like the model train set I would put out at Christmas for my childen. It would
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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              Maybe you mean, ENOUGH ???

              Yes, I must admit SVG is making me a bit nuts...It's like the model
              train set I would put out at Christmas for my childen. It would go
              round, and round, and round: always on the same track. Fortunately it
              could be put away for a year.

              SVG has been going around the same track for about 3 years with no
              destination in site.

              Francis


              "Bob Hunter" <bhunter@c...> wrote:
              > ENOUGH !!!
              >
            • Doug Schepers
              Francis- It seems like what you are looking for is some kind of rotation animation? From what I can tell, this should fit your requirements:
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                Francis-

                It seems like what you are looking for is some kind of rotation animation?
                From what I can tell, this should fit your requirements:

                <svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
                xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'>

                <path id='progress' d='M250,285 A100,100 0 1 1 251,285 z' fill='none'
                stroke='cornflowerblue' stroke-width='2'/>

                <text font-size='22px' fill='crimson' text-anchor='middle'>SVG
                <animateMotion dur='12s' repeatCount='indefinite' rotate='auto' >
                <mpath xlink:href='#progress'/>
                </animateMotion>
                </text>

                </svg>

                The text will go around in a circle indefinitely. Several people also
                recently posted train animations as well, if that's what you're looking for.

                Since this is a list dedicated to answering questions about development
                questions in SVG, when you ae asking questions here, it would be best to be
                clear and concise about specific features.

                I see that you also have questions about SVG viewers. Holger and many others
                have answered these questions before, many times. I think I've seen your
                post on this list before, so you must have seen such elaborate replies. In
                short, there are a number of different viewers, for all platforms. More
                development is going on as we speak.

                Finally, you seem to have some vague desire to control SVG's evolution and
                adoption. This really isn't an issue that can be resolved here. One way for
                you to effect the change you're looking for is to develop and distribute
                your own SVG viewer; I estimate that it could be done for less than $200K.
                Another way is to join the W3C and help in the development of the SVG Spec;
                this will cost somewhere between $5-30K, I think. It you feel that this
                control complex is interfering in your daily life, I suggest you try another
                yahoo list that may be better able to help you:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=obsessive

                Oh, and while we're talking about behavior, can I ask you to drop the
                unsavory word choices? I curse like a sailor in private ("Argh! Avast ye,
                scurvy dog!" etc. ), but it's rude to do so when you don't know your
                audience.

                Regards-
                Doug

                doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.


                Francis Hemsher wrote:
                |
                | Maybe you mean, ENOUGH ???
                |
                | Yes, I must admit SVG is making me a bit nuts...It's like the
                | model train set I would put out at Christmas for my childen.
                | It would go round, and round, and round: always on the same
                | track. Fortunately it could be put away for a year.
                |
                | SVG has been going around the same track for about 3 years
                | with no destination in site.
                |
                | Francis
                |
                |
                | "Bob Hunter" <bhunter@c...> wrote:
                | > ENOUGH !!!
                | >
                |
              • Francis Hemsher
                Hi Doug, Shucks no, the path that I m talking about is:
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                  Hi Doug,

                  Shucks no, the path that I'm talking about is:

                  <svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
                  xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'>
                  <text font-size='22px' fill='crimson' text-anchor='middle'>SVG
                  <animateMotion dur='12s' repeatCount='indefinite' rotate='auto'>
                  <mpath xlink:href='#lackOfProgress'/>
                  </animateMotion>
                  </text>
                  <text startOffset="0" x="242" y="337" transform="rotate
                  (0,242,337)"><tspan style="font-size:500;font-family:Cataneo,
                  BT;fill:darkblue;opacity:1;" x="242" >?</tspan></text>
                  <path id="lackOfProgress" style="fill:none;stroke-width:0;" d="M436
                  101 S 416 141,359 169,312.4800157279976
                  208.80223273182557,307.6577932630594 227.6089003450847,357 231,297
                  285,317 356,323 331,329 296,298.4955705796767
                  260.4000131066647,286.92223666382494 218.44667766170204,316
                  177,369.8644630607626 144.18445170165322,389 96,367.4533518282935
                  27.004445803654114,347.2000174755529 35.68444624054294,332 79,326
                  89,284 88,290 61,319 23,355.88001791244175
                  18.324445366765292,414.2289097381944 22.18222333871588,430 47,439
                  79,436 101,"/>
                  </svg>

                  Francis
                  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Schepers" <doug@s...>
                  wrote:
                  > It seems like what you are looking for is some kind of rotation
                  > From what I can tell, this should fit your requirements:
                  >
                  > <svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
                  > xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'>
                  >
                  > <path id='progress' d='M250,285 A100,100 0 1 1 251,285 z'
                  fill='none'
                  > stroke='cornflowerblue' stroke-width='2'/>
                  >
                  > <text font-size='22px' fill='crimson' text-anchor='middle'>SVG
                  > <animateMotion dur='12s' repeatCount='indefinite'
                  rotate='auto' >
                  > <mpath xlink:href='#progress'/>
                  > </animateMotion>
                  > </text>
                  >
                  > </svg>
                  >
                • welkerpaul
                  Hi Doug It s always enough if you re modest;) Your *enough* was a decent one, thanks. Your advice about the purpose of this group is recognized. It seems like
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
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                    Hi Doug
                    It's always enough if you're modest;)
                    Your *enough* was a decent one, thanks. Your advice about the
                    purpose of this group is recognized.
                    It seems like some people are looking for some clues about the
                    realistic potential of the technology as well. At least if you want
                    to do more than playing around with svg that might become quite
                    important. Unfortunately this is the only relevant list if you're
                    looking for some hints! Precocious platitudes and arrogant
                    suggestions won't help much in that situation. It should look like
                    that vectoreal is one of that major svg related entities? How about
                    sharing some decent first-hand insights about svg's adoption
                    progress? From my personal experience it was much easier to sell svg-
                    related projects tree years ago than it is today. To my experience
                    these days it's almost impossible to convince a customer telling him
                    svg would be a safe bet. All the existing svg projects I've been
                    involved are 100% asv3 dependent:-0 Did you realize that asv is
                    partially broken in ie7b?? And none of our projects will do any good
                    with firefox: impracticable slow and outrageous resource hungry, and
                    in addition just not available at the customers desktop:((
                    Any thoughts?
                    For those of you having enough, just skip this lengthy post and
                    continue! Mean enough posts will get ignored anyways:)
                    Ok, answered rantisch and sarcastic to Holger. Maybe it's because
                    it's been a long time ago I'd to deal with a guy who actually thinks
                    it's a good idea to have 'best viewed with browser x' statements
                    again. Embarrassing that he won't get what's wrong with this kind of
                    perception.
                    Besides, I guess most of the divergence results in the fact that
                    everyone likes to talk about his own svg. Some expect no more than a
                    nifty defined xml namespace that renders usable vector graphics in a
                    webbrowser. Others would like to see all kind of things besides and
                    beyond of this. It looks like doing all the stuff at the same time
                    didn't work out very well.
                    In my opinion the webbrowser part of the roadmap is essentially lost
                    unless adobe reanimates the thing. The firefox native implementation
                    would need vast amounts of (re)work in order to become usable in
                    terms of performance and machine resources demands, right? Nobody
                    expects this overnight. Alternative plugins will face a troublesome
                    long road; we know that things have changed concerning plugins
                    today. $200K is worth nothing.
                    But of course adobe isn't in charge to reanimate svg for the web. To
                    me its somehow obvious that their engagement concerning vector
                    webgraphics was just enough to hinder alternatives. They did have
                    valid reasons since the vml w3c submission did have a reference
                    implementation ready. And they didn't own flash as well.
                    Nevertheless, one may notice that adobe would have the chance to
                    tune into svg for the web any day? Given the complete market
                    penetration or their maintained pdf reader products, adobe has the
                    genuine power to distribute their svg viewer under the counter and
                    all over the place. Btw, could someone kindly explain to me why the
                    adobe reader still carries an updated asv6 within its binaries? I
                    might be ignorant, but using svg in order to render a few floating
                    controls in a fat reader client application looked like a fig leaf
                    right from the start? Especially if you consider that pdf is far
                    more powerful than svg.
                    Beyond these mentioned oddities there's probably no reason to
                    complain about adobe. Concerning svg it belongs to the standards
                    committee to embrace a non trivial xml format for webgraphics
                    without the solid commitment of the browser vendors. Who was asking
                    for a boxed implementation anyways? The one and only specification
                    should be adequate but doable for a browser vendor, right? That
                    doesn't exactly sound like svg.

                    Looking at svg beyond the web the affair is fairly easy. The file
                    format does exist and there're there are plenty of different
                    possibilities to emerge and to miss. Commonplace, the magic
                    threshold value doesn't apply at the front. Talking about the next
                    generation of vector aware os' and svg and back to the web: truism,
                    it's a no-brainer for many reasons. Well, *enough*, let's go for
                    dinner. Regards

                    Paul
                    --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Schepers" <doug@s...>
                    wrote:
                    > Francis-
                    >
                    > It seems like what you are looking for is some kind of rotation
                    animation?
                    > From what I can tell, this should fit your requirements:
                    >
                    > <svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
                    > xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'>
                    >
                    > <path id='progress' d='M250,285 A100,100 0 1 1 251,285 z'
                    fill='none'
                    > stroke='cornflowerblue' stroke-width='2'/>
                    >
                    > <text font-size='22px' fill='crimson' text-anchor='middle'>SVG
                    > <animateMotion dur='12s' repeatCount='indefinite'
                    rotate='auto' >
                    > <mpath xlink:href='#progress'/>
                    > </animateMotion>
                    > </text>
                    >
                    > </svg>
                    >
                    > The text will go around in a circle indefinitely. Several people
                    also
                    > recently posted train animations as well, if that's what you're
                    looking for.
                    >
                    > Since this is a list dedicated to answering questions about
                    development
                    > questions in SVG, when you ae asking questions here, it would be
                    best to be
                    > clear and concise about specific features.
                    >
                    > I see that you also have questions about SVG viewers. Holger and
                    many others
                    > have answered these questions before, many times. I think I've
                    seen your
                    > post on this list before, so you must have seen such elaborate
                    replies. In
                    > short, there are a number of different viewers, for all platforms.
                    More
                    > development is going on as we speak.
                    >
                    > Finally, you seem to have some vague desire to control SVG's
                    evolution and
                    > adoption. This really isn't an issue that can be resolved here.
                    One way for
                    > you to effect the change you're looking for is to develop and
                    distribute
                    > your own SVG viewer; I estimate that it could be done for less
                    than $200K.
                    > Another way is to join the W3C and help in the development of the
                    SVG Spec;
                    > this will cost somewhere between $5-30K, I think. It you feel that
                    this
                    > control complex is interfering in your daily life, I suggest you
                    try another
                    > yahoo list that may be better able to help you:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=obsessive
                    >
                    > Oh, and while we're talking about behavior, can I ask you to drop
                    the
                    > unsavory word choices? I curse like a sailor in private ("Argh!
                    Avast ye,
                    > scurvy dog!" etc. ), but it's rude to do so when you don't know
                    your
                    > audience.
                    >
                    > Regards-
                    > Doug
                    >
                    > doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                    > www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.
                    >
                    >
                    > Francis Hemsher wrote:
                    > |
                    > | Maybe you mean, ENOUGH ???
                    > |
                    > | Yes, I must admit SVG is making me a bit nuts...It's like the
                    > | model train set I would put out at Christmas for my childen.
                    > | It would go round, and round, and round: always on the same
                    > | track. Fortunately it could be put away for a year.
                    > |
                    > | SVG has been going around the same track for about 3 years
                    > | with no destination in site.
                    > |
                    > | Francis
                    > |
                    > |
                    > | "Bob Hunter" <bhunter@c...> wrote:
                    > | > ENOUGH !!!
                    > | >
                    > |
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