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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Shit, or get of the pot

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  • Holger Will
    ... thanks :-) ... there is a lot of room for speculations, but i guess no one really knows the future . so we can discuss what should or could be, but we cant
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
      welkerpaul schrieb:

      > Holger,
      > I do appreciate your efforts in sharing your knowledge and
      > moderating this newsgroup very much.

      thanks :-)

      > Nevertheless your response to
      > the very much vital questions concerning svgs future is not
      > sufficient, nor acceptable in that manner.

      there is a lot of room for speculations, but i guess no one really knows
      the future .
      so we can discuss what should or could be, but we cant discuss what will be.
      for my part, all i can do is use the technology i like most, and with
      that create a customer demand.

      > Reckless of the danger beating a dead horse, these repeated
      > questions are valid and need decent answers if you're looking for a
      > future use of the technology.

      all it needs for these answers is a bit patience, only time will tell
      what the future brings.

      > Adobe's attitude (`sorry, due to our
      > policy/merger in progress we cannot announce future plans…') kills
      > svg.

      thats exactly the big advantage of SVG, we are not depending on one
      single vendor.

      > Please do realize that competing technologies (flash, flex,
      > vml , xaml) do show off a well communicated roadmap.

      but
      flash is not XML,
      flex can only be used on the server,
      VML is MS only,
      and xaml is also only MS.

      that means thouse technologys cant be an alternative to SVG for me.

      > Admittedly,
      > these competing technologies are not committee standards. The ironic
      > thing about it is that some people answered Rick Bullota recently
      > they'd rather like to see no broad adoption of svg than varying
      > adoptions.

      sure it would be great to have 100% complience on all plattforms and
      browsers,
      but that most like will take some time, and in the meantime i guess
      there is no other way than
      accepting varying implemetations. this is what competition is about,
      support the best implementation
      in your eyes, and communicate what you are missing in other
      implementations,
      and probably other implementations will implement these features as
      well, to stay competitive.

      > My goodness, svg is a cluttered and fragmented beast for
      > any implementer by design!

      a highly sophisticated graphics api is never easy to implement i guess.
      do you think its easier to implement 100% of xaml or flash ?

      > In the medium term svg would need native
      > support by all the browser vendors to be relevant.

      why ? again i admit that 100% browser support would be fantastic, but i
      dont see why
      this would be nessecary. SVG is relevant, for example , on Linux
      desktops, this has nothing to do with browsers.
      so if what i heard about xaml is true it should be quite straight
      forward to transform between MVG and SVG.
      that said, you would be able to use all the nice SVG Icon themes out
      there on windows ,too.
      and all this without any browser support at all.

      > Svgt ought to be
      > doable, but I'm afraid svgt is deplorable and not worth the effort
      > in future. Might be a different situation concerning the mobile
      > phones industries, yet they're volatile and face general problems
      > like content accessibility aso..

      im not to knowlagable in the mobile world, and since my mobile got
      stolen some month ago,
      i dont even have a mobile phone and im very happy without one !

      > Back to your post, that might show through a little of svg's
      > disease. Did you realize that svg will be something useless unless a
      > majority of all web clients will be able to render svg content?

      no ! see above , SVG is not useless at all, as there are more
      applications for SVG than webgraphics.
      and remember that for browsers, there is object with the integrated
      fallback behavior.
      so you can use SVG today without excluding anyone from seeing your site.
      but you could tell your visitors that the chart they are looking at will
      be interactive
      in a more standards complient browser (or if they download a plugin).

      > Does
      > it help svg to spread firefox?

      yes, i believe so.

      > Even 50%+ firefox share would still
      > be useless.

      not at all, 50% SVG support + plugin distribution is quite a lot in total.

      > Foul-mouthed `best viewed with browser x version y.z'
      > statements again??

      i really dont see why this would be bad ! i know that non techie people
      dont want to know,
      but thats one way to reastablish a competition among browser vendors again,
      we as authors and users can only win from this competition.

      > Obviously I do not need a full blown w3c
      > specification just to be able to watch my own content with my own
      > favourite superior software configuration?

      no ? can you view xaml on linux, if thats your favorit OS ? can you view
      Flash if you dont like Macromedia software ?
      dont you see that SVG enables you to really be free to choose the
      sofware/OS you like most ?
      if im to switch to linux tomorrow, i can still keep and use most of my
      SVGs ,
      a lot of other files will be lost. that is i dont want to recreate all
      my content every time
      my "favourite superior software configuration" changes.in the end thats
      what standards are good for.

      >
      > So, since svg cannot wait for an improbable 100% native browser
      > support any time soon the stale plugin route seems the only way out.

      obviously for IE users this is true, for all the other browsers, i see a
      lot of potential for their SVG implemetations.
      btw. is there any non IE based browser not having/working on a native
      implementation ? ( dont tell me lynx !)

      > Obviously adobe is the only entity having the power of enabling it's
      > undercover svg-imageviewer for the internet browser through their
      > readers update mechanism for the masses. Takes us back to the
      > attitude thing…

      there are approx. 10.000.000 downloads a month for firefox, i dont know
      if Adobe ever hit these numbers.
      dont forget that firefox is still a very new browser.
      i believe that firefox will be the browser for the masses,
      and the masses have more power than Adobe+MS together !
      imagine china chooses to broadly use linux, and with that use SVG
      extensively,
      do you think that it matters, in that circumstance, if Adobe produces an
      SVG plugin for Windows or not ?

      >
      > Why do I think these questions do need tidy answers now: it should
      > help people to avoid wasting their time and money. Svg's competing
      > technologies are currently shaping up better than svg. Even one of
      > svg's predecessors, the meanwhile presumed dead vml has a bright
      > future. I'd guess it won't be too long before openoffice supports
      > vml.

      which would be great, interoperability is allways important.

      all the best
      Holger

      >
      > Best Regards
      > Paul
      > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Holger Will <holger@t...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Francis
      > >
      > > > Which entity is going to support SVG?
      > >
      > > Me !!! and some other small companies like:
      > > Mozilla.org, IBM, Novell, Sun ... are all supporting SVG on the
      > > desktop... also the mobile industrie, including manufactures like
      > > siemens, motorolla... and cariers like vodafon,
      > > have clearly shown their support for SVG.
      > >
      > > > Adobe obviously has not followed
      > > > through with its original commitment to develop an SVG viewer and
      > > > development environment via their W3C relationship.
      > >
      > > Adobe+Macromedia will not drop SVG( see the newly created sites
      > about
      > > SVG at adobe ).
      > > http://www.adobe.com/svg/main.html
      > >
      > > additionally we all know that the ASV6 viewer was meant as an
      > SVG1.2
      > > implementation. therefor we will not see a new SVG viewer by Adobe
      > > before SVG1.2 becomes recommendation.
      > > so why do you wonder there is no new viewer ?
      > >
      > > > Who really cares
      > > > why Adobe dropped the ball..??
      > >
      > > did they ? really ? what makes you believe ?
      > >
      > > > Let's face reality: Unless a quality
      > > > entity picks up the pieces,
      > >
      > > do you think MS is the only quality entity on this planet?
      > >
      > > following companies support SVG ( just to name a few )
      > >
      > > Mozilla ,IBM ,Sun ,Novell , Siemens, Vodafon, Motorolla, SAP,
      > HP,Kodak,
      > > Sharp, KDDI, Agfa ,Nokia , Sony/Ericsson, Apple, Corel ...
      > >
      > > why do you think these are no quality entitys?
      > >
      > > > we're going to be wasting our collective
      > > > time.
      > >
      > > maybe you are wasting your time in constantly asking this kind of
      > > questions , and im wasting my time in trying to answer them, again
      > and
      > > again. if you think your are wasting your time with SVG,
      > > just go away, use something else... do whatever you please.
      > >
      > > Holger
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----
      > To unsubscribe send a message to:
      > svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > -or-
      > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my
      > membership"
      > ----
      >
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS
      > Format
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Format&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s=63&.sig=pwk9bsTG47SryYQd8oYMkg>
      > Data
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Data&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s=63&.sig=Ybmv-NMr8B76MC8Re1fdyw>
      > Svg
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Svg&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s=63&.sig=11VNwM2AJiL3y3m8bHlMbw>
      >
      > Computer internet
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+internet&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s=63&.sig=0A5G5gyBvu8oMs16cYR8RA>
      > W3c
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=W3c&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s=63&.sig=mcHOxevUaXqKuaXf6fpI7g>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      > * Visit your group "svg-developers
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers>" on the web.
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
    • welkerpaul
      Dear Firefox Holger, if this is a svg newsgroup the clients os and browser preferences should be none of your business. Eventually svg suffers from its
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
        Dear Firefox Holger,
        if this is a svg newsgroup the clients' os and browser
        preferences
        should be none of your business.
        Eventually svg suffers from its insincere support? Actually svg
        suffers from multiple sicknesses? It suffered from questionable
        support driven by the occasion to prevent competition rather than
        for its justified value (sounds like adobe?)? It suffered from w3c
        whilst w3c has been leveraged to play with market interests? It
        suffers from abuse? It suffers from abuse by its straightest
        supporters, whilst propagated to serve collateral interests? Mixed
        up with open source misconceptions, spread ff campaigns and anti-
        trust brawling?
        Surprisingly it's not a European centric issue and public funded
        entities are rare svg supporters...
        Looking forward to your chinese svg revolution,
        Paul
        --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Holger Will <holger@t...>
        wrote:
        > welkerpaul schrieb:
        >
        > > Holger,
        > > I do appreciate your efforts in sharing your knowledge and
        > > moderating this newsgroup very much.
        >
        > thanks :-)
        >
        > > Nevertheless your response to
        > > the very much vital questions concerning svgs future is not
        > > sufficient, nor acceptable in that manner.
        >
        > there is a lot of room for speculations, but i guess no one really
        knows
        > the future .
        > so we can discuss what should or could be, but we cant discuss
        what will be.
        > for my part, all i can do is use the technology i like most, and
        with
        > that create a customer demand.
        >
        > > Reckless of the danger beating a dead horse, these repeated
        > > questions are valid and need decent answers if you're looking
        for a
        > > future use of the technology.
        >
        > all it needs for these answers is a bit patience, only time will
        tell
        > what the future brings.
        >
        > > Adobe's attitude (`sorry, due to our
        > > policy/merger in progress we cannot announce future plans…')
        kills
        > > svg.
        >
        > thats exactly the big advantage of SVG, we are not depending on
        one
        > single vendor.
        >
        > > Please do realize that competing technologies (flash, flex,
        > > vml , xaml) do show off a well communicated roadmap.
        >
        > but
        > flash is not XML,
        > flex can only be used on the server,
        > VML is MS only,
        > and xaml is also only MS.
        >
        > that means thouse technologys cant be an alternative to SVG for me.
        >
        > > Admittedly,
        > > these competing technologies are not committee standards. The
        ironic
        > > thing about it is that some people answered Rick Bullota recently
        > > they'd rather like to see no broad adoption of svg than varying
        > > adoptions.
        >
        > sure it would be great to have 100% complience on all plattforms
        and
        > browsers,
        > but that most like will take some time, and in the meantime i
        guess
        > there is no other way than
        > accepting varying implemetations. this is what competition is
        about,
        > support the best implementation
        > in your eyes, and communicate what you are missing in other
        > implementations,
        > and probably other implementations will implement these features
        as
        > well, to stay competitive.
        >
        > > My goodness, svg is a cluttered and fragmented beast for
        > > any implementer by design!
        >
        > a highly sophisticated graphics api is never easy to implement i
        guess.
        > do you think its easier to implement 100% of xaml or flash ?
        >
        > > In the medium term svg would need native
        > > support by all the browser vendors to be relevant.
        >
        > why ? again i admit that 100% browser support would be fantastic,
        but i
        > dont see why
        > this would be nessecary. SVG is relevant, for example , on Linux
        > desktops, this has nothing to do with browsers.
        > so if what i heard about xaml is true it should be quite straight
        > forward to transform between MVG and SVG.
        > that said, you would be able to use all the nice SVG Icon themes
        out
        > there on windows ,too.
        > and all this without any browser support at all.
        >
        > > Svgt ought to be
        > > doable, but I'm afraid svgt is deplorable and not worth the
        effort
        > > in future. Might be a different situation concerning the mobile
        > > phones industries, yet they're volatile and face general problems
        > > like content accessibility aso..
        >
        > im not to knowlagable in the mobile world, and since my mobile got
        > stolen some month ago,
        > i dont even have a mobile phone and im very happy without one !
        >
        > > Back to your post, that might show through a little of svg's
        > > disease. Did you realize that svg will be something useless
        unless a
        > > majority of all web clients will be able to render svg content?
        >
        > no ! see above , SVG is not useless at all, as there are more
        > applications for SVG than webgraphics.
        > and remember that for browsers, there is object with the
        integrated
        > fallback behavior.
        > so you can use SVG today without excluding anyone from seeing your
        site.
        > but you could tell your visitors that the chart they are looking
        at will
        > be interactive
        > in a more standards complient browser (or if they download a
        plugin).
        >
        > > Does
        > > it help svg to spread firefox?
        >
        > yes, i believe so.
        >
        > > Even 50%+ firefox share would still
        > > be useless.
        >
        > not at all, 50% SVG support + plugin distribution is quite a lot
        in total.
        >
        > > Foul-mouthed `best viewed with browser x version y.z'
        > > statements again??
        >
        > i really dont see why this would be bad ! i know that non techie
        people
        > dont want to know,
        > but thats one way to reastablish a competition among browser
        vendors again,
        > we as authors and users can only win from this competition.
        >
        > > Obviously I do not need a full blown w3c
        > > specification just to be able to watch my own content with my own
        > > favourite superior software configuration?
        >
        > no ? can you view xaml on linux, if thats your favorit OS ? can
        you view
        > Flash if you dont like Macromedia software ?
        > dont you see that SVG enables you to really be free to choose the
        > sofware/OS you like most ?
        > if im to switch to linux tomorrow, i can still keep and use most
        of my
        > SVGs ,
        > a lot of other files will be lost. that is i dont want to recreate
        all
        > my content every time
        > my "favourite superior software configuration" changes.in the end
        thats
        > what standards are good for.
        >
        > >
        > > So, since svg cannot wait for an improbable 100% native browser
        > > support any time soon the stale plugin route seems the only way
        out.
        >
        > obviously for IE users this is true, for all the other browsers, i
        see a
        > lot of potential for their SVG implemetations.
        > btw. is there any non IE based browser not having/working on a
        native
        > implementation ? ( dont tell me lynx !)
        >
        > > Obviously adobe is the only entity having the power of enabling
        it's
        > > undercover svg-imageviewer for the internet browser through their
        > > readers update mechanism for the masses. Takes us back to the
        > > attitude thing…
        >
        > there are approx. 10.000.000 downloads a month for firefox, i dont
        know
        > if Adobe ever hit these numbers.
        > dont forget that firefox is still a very new browser.
        > i believe that firefox will be the browser for the masses,
        > and the masses have more power than Adobe+MS together !
        > imagine china chooses to broadly use linux, and with that use SVG
        > extensively,
        > do you think that it matters, in that circumstance, if Adobe
        produces an
        > SVG plugin for Windows or not ?
        >
        > >
        > > Why do I think these questions do need tidy answers now: it
        should
        > > help people to avoid wasting their time and money. Svg's
        competing
        > > technologies are currently shaping up better than svg. Even one
        of
        > > svg's predecessors, the meanwhile presumed dead vml has a bright
        > > future. I'd guess it won't be too long before openoffice supports
        > > vml.
        >
        > which would be great, interoperability is allways important.
        >
        > all the best
        > Holger
        >
        > >
        > > Best Regards
        > > Paul
        > > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Holger Will <holger@t...>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Francis
        > > >
        > > > > Which entity is going to support SVG?
        > > >
        > > > Me !!! and some other small companies like:
        > > > Mozilla.org, IBM, Novell, Sun ... are all supporting SVG on the
        > > > desktop... also the mobile industrie, including manufactures
        like
        > > > siemens, motorolla... and cariers like vodafon,
        > > > have clearly shown their support for SVG.
        > > >
        > > > > Adobe obviously has not followed
        > > > > through with its original commitment to develop an SVG
        viewer and
        > > > > development environment via their W3C relationship.
        > > >
        > > > Adobe+Macromedia will not drop SVG( see the newly created sites
        > > about
        > > > SVG at adobe ).
        > > > http://www.adobe.com/svg/main.html
        > > >
        > > > additionally we all know that the ASV6 viewer was meant as an
        > > SVG1.2
        > > > implementation. therefor we will not see a new SVG viewer by
        Adobe
        > > > before SVG1.2 becomes recommendation.
        > > > so why do you wonder there is no new viewer ?
        > > >
        > > > > Who really cares
        > > > > why Adobe dropped the ball..??
        > > >
        > > > did they ? really ? what makes you believe ?
        > > >
        > > > > Let's face reality: Unless a quality
        > > > > entity picks up the pieces,
        > > >
        > > > do you think MS is the only quality entity on this planet?
        > > >
        > > > following companies support SVG ( just to name a few )
        > > >
        > > > Mozilla ,IBM ,Sun ,Novell , Siemens, Vodafon, Motorolla, SAP,
        > > HP,Kodak,
        > > > Sharp, KDDI, Agfa ,Nokia , Sony/Ericsson, Apple, Corel ...
        > > >
        > > > why do you think these are no quality entitys?
        > > >
        > > > > we're going to be wasting our collective
        > > > > time.
        > > >
        > > > maybe you are wasting your time in constantly asking this kind
        of
        > > > questions , and im wasting my time in trying to answer them,
        again
        > > and
        > > > again. if you think your are wasting your time with SVG,
        > > > just go away, use something else... do whatever you please.
        > > >
        > > > Holger
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -----
        > > To unsubscribe send a message to:
        > > svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > -or-
        > > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
        click "edit my
        > > membership"
        > > ----
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > SPONSORED LINKS
        > > Format
        > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
        t=ms&k=Format&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=
        5&s=63&.sig=pwk9bsTG47SryYQd8oYMkg>
        > > Data
        > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
        t=ms&k=Data&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&
        s=63&.sig=Ybmv-NMr8B76MC8Re1fdyw>
        > > Svg
        > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
        t=ms&k=Svg&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s
        =63&.sig=11VNwM2AJiL3y3m8bHlMbw>
        > >
        > > Computer internet
        > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
        t=ms&k=Computer+internet&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+interne
        t&w5=W3c&c=5&s=63&.sig=0A5G5gyBvu8oMs16cYR8RA>
        > > W3c
        > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
        t=ms&k=W3c&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s
        =63&.sig=mcHOxevUaXqKuaXf6fpI7g>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
        -------
        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        > >
        > > * Visit your group "svg-developers
        > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers>" on the web.
        > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
        subject=Unsubscribe>
        > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        > >
        > >
        > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
        -------
        > >
      • Holger Will
        ... Dear Paul firefox is not my name, please try to learn to read ! ... as i said, SVG gives you the freedom to choose the implementation you like. on this
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 1, 2005
          welkerpaul schrieb:

          > Dear Firefox Holger,

          Dear Paul
          firefox is not my name, please try to learn to read !

          > if this is a svg newsgroup the clients' os and browser
          > preferences
          > should be none of your business.

          as i said, SVG gives you the freedom to choose the implementation you
          like. on this list there are people using IE+ASV on windows, some prefer
          opera+ASV some use ASV on linux,
          again some people like Firefox native SVG support. others use ksvg , or
          are looking forward to using renesis, there are Mac users, Win 98 users
          and a lot more i forgot , im sure.
          im not trying to tell people what to use ! the only time i care about
          browser and os , is when i try to answer some technical questions, in
          that circumstance, its my buissness, since im trying to help.
          you dont seem to like any Viewer/OS combinations, and you are definitly
          not trying to help, sorry !

          > Eventually svg suffers from its insincere support? Actually svg
          > suffers from multiple sicknesses? It suffered from questionable
          > support driven by the occasion to prevent competition rather than
          > for its justified value (sounds like adobe?)? It suffered from w3c
          > whilst w3c has been leveraged to play with market interests? It
          > suffers from abuse? It suffers from abuse by its straightest
          > supporters, whilst propagated to serve collateral interests?

          ??? im sorry ? i cant really follow here ! what are you talking about ?
          do you have any "prove" or
          at least a logical explanation for any of your abuse and prevent
          competition stories ?
          (besides do you have a "!" key on your keybord ? a sentence like "It
          suffers from abuse?" is not questions! )

          > Mixed
          > up with open source misconceptions, spread ff campaigns and anti-
          > trust brawling?

          what are open source misconceptions ? whats so bad about spread ff
          campaingns ? and how do "antitrust brawlings" fit in here ?

          > Surprisingly it's not a European centric issue and

          what issue are you talking about here ?
          the "open source misconceptions" issue is not "European centric" ?
          the "spread ff campaigns" issue is not "European centric" ?
          the "antitrust brawlings" issue is not "European centric" ?

          > public funded
          > entities are rare svg supporters...

          like the "statistische Bundesamt"( the national statistics institute in
          germany) which is using SVG for example.

          > Looking forward to your chinese svg revolution,

          it looks like you got a little too much imagination, i said imagine that
          this would happen,
          i didnt say this will happen under any circumstace.

          > Paul

          looking forward to your answer to my questions.
          sincierly
          Holger "firefox" Will
        • Barend Köbben
          Holger look up the word paranoia in your dictionary and maybe also ranting , and maybe then welkerpaul makes sense... Barend anybrowserthatworksforme
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
            Holger

            look up the word 'paranoia' in your dictionary and maybe also 'ranting', and maybe then welkerpaul makes sense...


            Barend "anybrowserthatworksforme" Köbben
          • Holger Will
            ... ROFL :-) thanks for the tip. that helped a lot ! Holger thisisaquestion? Will
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
              Barend Köbben schrieb:

              > Holger
              >
              > look up the word 'paranoia' in your dictionary and maybe also
              > 'ranting', and maybe then welkerpaul makes sense...
              >
              >
              > Barend "anybrowserthatworksforme" Köbben
              >
              ROFL :-)

              thanks for the tip. that helped a lot !

              Holger "thisisaquestion?" Will
            • Bob Hunter
              ENOUGH !!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                ENOUGH !!!



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Francis Hemsher
                Maybe you mean, ENOUGH ??? Yes, I must admit SVG is making me a bit nuts...It s like the model train set I would put out at Christmas for my childen. It would
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                  Maybe you mean, ENOUGH ???

                  Yes, I must admit SVG is making me a bit nuts...It's like the model
                  train set I would put out at Christmas for my childen. It would go
                  round, and round, and round: always on the same track. Fortunately it
                  could be put away for a year.

                  SVG has been going around the same track for about 3 years with no
                  destination in site.

                  Francis


                  "Bob Hunter" <bhunter@c...> wrote:
                  > ENOUGH !!!
                  >
                • Doug Schepers
                  Francis- It seems like what you are looking for is some kind of rotation animation? From what I can tell, this should fit your requirements:
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                    Francis-

                    It seems like what you are looking for is some kind of rotation animation?
                    From what I can tell, this should fit your requirements:

                    <svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
                    xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'>

                    <path id='progress' d='M250,285 A100,100 0 1 1 251,285 z' fill='none'
                    stroke='cornflowerblue' stroke-width='2'/>

                    <text font-size='22px' fill='crimson' text-anchor='middle'>SVG
                    <animateMotion dur='12s' repeatCount='indefinite' rotate='auto' >
                    <mpath xlink:href='#progress'/>
                    </animateMotion>
                    </text>

                    </svg>

                    The text will go around in a circle indefinitely. Several people also
                    recently posted train animations as well, if that's what you're looking for.

                    Since this is a list dedicated to answering questions about development
                    questions in SVG, when you ae asking questions here, it would be best to be
                    clear and concise about specific features.

                    I see that you also have questions about SVG viewers. Holger and many others
                    have answered these questions before, many times. I think I've seen your
                    post on this list before, so you must have seen such elaborate replies. In
                    short, there are a number of different viewers, for all platforms. More
                    development is going on as we speak.

                    Finally, you seem to have some vague desire to control SVG's evolution and
                    adoption. This really isn't an issue that can be resolved here. One way for
                    you to effect the change you're looking for is to develop and distribute
                    your own SVG viewer; I estimate that it could be done for less than $200K.
                    Another way is to join the W3C and help in the development of the SVG Spec;
                    this will cost somewhere between $5-30K, I think. It you feel that this
                    control complex is interfering in your daily life, I suggest you try another
                    yahoo list that may be better able to help you:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=obsessive

                    Oh, and while we're talking about behavior, can I ask you to drop the
                    unsavory word choices? I curse like a sailor in private ("Argh! Avast ye,
                    scurvy dog!" etc. ), but it's rude to do so when you don't know your
                    audience.

                    Regards-
                    Doug

                    doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                    www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.


                    Francis Hemsher wrote:
                    |
                    | Maybe you mean, ENOUGH ???
                    |
                    | Yes, I must admit SVG is making me a bit nuts...It's like the
                    | model train set I would put out at Christmas for my childen.
                    | It would go round, and round, and round: always on the same
                    | track. Fortunately it could be put away for a year.
                    |
                    | SVG has been going around the same track for about 3 years
                    | with no destination in site.
                    |
                    | Francis
                    |
                    |
                    | "Bob Hunter" <bhunter@c...> wrote:
                    | > ENOUGH !!!
                    | >
                    |
                  • Francis Hemsher
                    Hi Doug, Shucks no, the path that I m talking about is:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                      Hi Doug,

                      Shucks no, the path that I'm talking about is:

                      <svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
                      xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'>
                      <text font-size='22px' fill='crimson' text-anchor='middle'>SVG
                      <animateMotion dur='12s' repeatCount='indefinite' rotate='auto'>
                      <mpath xlink:href='#lackOfProgress'/>
                      </animateMotion>
                      </text>
                      <text startOffset="0" x="242" y="337" transform="rotate
                      (0,242,337)"><tspan style="font-size:500;font-family:Cataneo,
                      BT;fill:darkblue;opacity:1;" x="242" >?</tspan></text>
                      <path id="lackOfProgress" style="fill:none;stroke-width:0;" d="M436
                      101 S 416 141,359 169,312.4800157279976
                      208.80223273182557,307.6577932630594 227.6089003450847,357 231,297
                      285,317 356,323 331,329 296,298.4955705796767
                      260.4000131066647,286.92223666382494 218.44667766170204,316
                      177,369.8644630607626 144.18445170165322,389 96,367.4533518282935
                      27.004445803654114,347.2000174755529 35.68444624054294,332 79,326
                      89,284 88,290 61,319 23,355.88001791244175
                      18.324445366765292,414.2289097381944 22.18222333871588,430 47,439
                      79,436 101,"/>
                      </svg>

                      Francis
                      --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Schepers" <doug@s...>
                      wrote:
                      > It seems like what you are looking for is some kind of rotation
                      > From what I can tell, this should fit your requirements:
                      >
                      > <svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
                      > xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'>
                      >
                      > <path id='progress' d='M250,285 A100,100 0 1 1 251,285 z'
                      fill='none'
                      > stroke='cornflowerblue' stroke-width='2'/>
                      >
                      > <text font-size='22px' fill='crimson' text-anchor='middle'>SVG
                      > <animateMotion dur='12s' repeatCount='indefinite'
                      rotate='auto' >
                      > <mpath xlink:href='#progress'/>
                      > </animateMotion>
                      > </text>
                      >
                      > </svg>
                      >
                    • welkerpaul
                      Hi Doug It s always enough if you re modest;) Your *enough* was a decent one, thanks. Your advice about the purpose of this group is recognized. It seems like
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 2, 2005
                        Hi Doug
                        It's always enough if you're modest;)
                        Your *enough* was a decent one, thanks. Your advice about the
                        purpose of this group is recognized.
                        It seems like some people are looking for some clues about the
                        realistic potential of the technology as well. At least if you want
                        to do more than playing around with svg that might become quite
                        important. Unfortunately this is the only relevant list if you're
                        looking for some hints! Precocious platitudes and arrogant
                        suggestions won't help much in that situation. It should look like
                        that vectoreal is one of that major svg related entities? How about
                        sharing some decent first-hand insights about svg's adoption
                        progress? From my personal experience it was much easier to sell svg-
                        related projects tree years ago than it is today. To my experience
                        these days it's almost impossible to convince a customer telling him
                        svg would be a safe bet. All the existing svg projects I've been
                        involved are 100% asv3 dependent:-0 Did you realize that asv is
                        partially broken in ie7b?? And none of our projects will do any good
                        with firefox: impracticable slow and outrageous resource hungry, and
                        in addition just not available at the customers desktop:((
                        Any thoughts?
                        For those of you having enough, just skip this lengthy post and
                        continue! Mean enough posts will get ignored anyways:)
                        Ok, answered rantisch and sarcastic to Holger. Maybe it's because
                        it's been a long time ago I'd to deal with a guy who actually thinks
                        it's a good idea to have 'best viewed with browser x' statements
                        again. Embarrassing that he won't get what's wrong with this kind of
                        perception.
                        Besides, I guess most of the divergence results in the fact that
                        everyone likes to talk about his own svg. Some expect no more than a
                        nifty defined xml namespace that renders usable vector graphics in a
                        webbrowser. Others would like to see all kind of things besides and
                        beyond of this. It looks like doing all the stuff at the same time
                        didn't work out very well.
                        In my opinion the webbrowser part of the roadmap is essentially lost
                        unless adobe reanimates the thing. The firefox native implementation
                        would need vast amounts of (re)work in order to become usable in
                        terms of performance and machine resources demands, right? Nobody
                        expects this overnight. Alternative plugins will face a troublesome
                        long road; we know that things have changed concerning plugins
                        today. $200K is worth nothing.
                        But of course adobe isn't in charge to reanimate svg for the web. To
                        me its somehow obvious that their engagement concerning vector
                        webgraphics was just enough to hinder alternatives. They did have
                        valid reasons since the vml w3c submission did have a reference
                        implementation ready. And they didn't own flash as well.
                        Nevertheless, one may notice that adobe would have the chance to
                        tune into svg for the web any day? Given the complete market
                        penetration or their maintained pdf reader products, adobe has the
                        genuine power to distribute their svg viewer under the counter and
                        all over the place. Btw, could someone kindly explain to me why the
                        adobe reader still carries an updated asv6 within its binaries? I
                        might be ignorant, but using svg in order to render a few floating
                        controls in a fat reader client application looked like a fig leaf
                        right from the start? Especially if you consider that pdf is far
                        more powerful than svg.
                        Beyond these mentioned oddities there's probably no reason to
                        complain about adobe. Concerning svg it belongs to the standards
                        committee to embrace a non trivial xml format for webgraphics
                        without the solid commitment of the browser vendors. Who was asking
                        for a boxed implementation anyways? The one and only specification
                        should be adequate but doable for a browser vendor, right? That
                        doesn't exactly sound like svg.

                        Looking at svg beyond the web the affair is fairly easy. The file
                        format does exist and there're there are plenty of different
                        possibilities to emerge and to miss. Commonplace, the magic
                        threshold value doesn't apply at the front. Talking about the next
                        generation of vector aware os' and svg and back to the web: truism,
                        it's a no-brainer for many reasons. Well, *enough*, let's go for
                        dinner. Regards

                        Paul
                        --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Schepers" <doug@s...>
                        wrote:
                        > Francis-
                        >
                        > It seems like what you are looking for is some kind of rotation
                        animation?
                        > From what I can tell, this should fit your requirements:
                        >
                        > <svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg'
                        > xmlns:xlink='http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink'>
                        >
                        > <path id='progress' d='M250,285 A100,100 0 1 1 251,285 z'
                        fill='none'
                        > stroke='cornflowerblue' stroke-width='2'/>
                        >
                        > <text font-size='22px' fill='crimson' text-anchor='middle'>SVG
                        > <animateMotion dur='12s' repeatCount='indefinite'
                        rotate='auto' >
                        > <mpath xlink:href='#progress'/>
                        > </animateMotion>
                        > </text>
                        >
                        > </svg>
                        >
                        > The text will go around in a circle indefinitely. Several people
                        also
                        > recently posted train animations as well, if that's what you're
                        looking for.
                        >
                        > Since this is a list dedicated to answering questions about
                        development
                        > questions in SVG, when you ae asking questions here, it would be
                        best to be
                        > clear and concise about specific features.
                        >
                        > I see that you also have questions about SVG viewers. Holger and
                        many others
                        > have answered these questions before, many times. I think I've
                        seen your
                        > post on this list before, so you must have seen such elaborate
                        replies. In
                        > short, there are a number of different viewers, for all platforms.
                        More
                        > development is going on as we speak.
                        >
                        > Finally, you seem to have some vague desire to control SVG's
                        evolution and
                        > adoption. This really isn't an issue that can be resolved here.
                        One way for
                        > you to effect the change you're looking for is to develop and
                        distribute
                        > your own SVG viewer; I estimate that it could be done for less
                        than $200K.
                        > Another way is to join the W3C and help in the development of the
                        SVG Spec;
                        > this will cost somewhere between $5-30K, I think. It you feel that
                        this
                        > control complex is interfering in your daily life, I suggest you
                        try another
                        > yahoo list that may be better able to help you:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=obsessive
                        >
                        > Oh, and while we're talking about behavior, can I ask you to drop
                        the
                        > unsavory word choices? I curse like a sailor in private ("Argh!
                        Avast ye,
                        > scurvy dog!" etc. ), but it's rude to do so when you don't know
                        your
                        > audience.
                        >
                        > Regards-
                        > Doug
                        >
                        > doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                        > www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.
                        >
                        >
                        > Francis Hemsher wrote:
                        > |
                        > | Maybe you mean, ENOUGH ???
                        > |
                        > | Yes, I must admit SVG is making me a bit nuts...It's like the
                        > | model train set I would put out at Christmas for my childen.
                        > | It would go round, and round, and round: always on the same
                        > | track. Fortunately it could be put away for a year.
                        > |
                        > | SVG has been going around the same track for about 3 years
                        > | with no destination in site.
                        > |
                        > | Francis
                        > |
                        > |
                        > | "Bob Hunter" <bhunter@c...> wrote:
                        > | > ENOUGH !!!
                        > | >
                        > |
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