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SVG fonts in ASV

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  • Cameron McCormack
    Hi everyone. Can someone help me get SVG fonts working in ASV? I write SVG documents testing them against Batik and then when I get to trying them in ASV I m
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 23, 2005
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      Hi everyone.

      Can someone help me get SVG fonts working in ASV? I write SVG documents
      testing them against Batik and then when I get to trying them in ASV I'm
      always disappointed. :(

      Anyway, this document:

      <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="400" height="400">
      <defs>
      <font>
      <font-face font-family="CMR"/>
      <glyph unicode="H" glyph-name="H" horiz-adv-x="750" d="M 33 0 m 580 605 c 0 36 2 47 79 47 h 24 v 31 c -35 -3 -109 -3 -147 -3 c -38 0 -113 0 -148 3 v -31 h 24 c 77 0 79 -11 79 -47 v -234 h -299 v 234 c 0 36 2 47 79 47 h 24 v 31 c -35 -3 -109 -3 -147 -3 c -38 0 -113 0 -148 3 v -31 h 24 c 77 0 79 -11 79 -47 v -527 c 0 -36 -2 -47 -79 -47 h -24 v -31 c 35 3 109 3 147 3 c 38 0 113 0 148 -3 v 31 h -24 c -77 0 -79 11 -79 47 v 262 h 299 v -262 c 0 -36 -2 -47 -79 -47 h -24 v -31 c 35 3 109 3 147 3 c 38 0 113 0 148 -3 v 31 h -24 c -77 0 -79 11 -79 47 z"/>
      </font>
      </defs>
      <text x="200" y="200" font-size="40" font-family="CMR, sans-serif">HELLO</text>
      </svg>

      works fine in Batik. The "H" of the "HELLO" is rendered in Computer
      Modern Roman, and the "ELLO" is in some sans serif font. In ASV 3 under
      Linux, it crashes firefox. In ASV 3 under Windows, I just get a blank
      document.

      What can I do to make the font work in ASV?

      Thanks,

      Cameron

      --
      e-mail : cam (at) mcc.id.au icq : 26955922
      web : http://mcc.id.au/ msn : cam-msn (at) aka.mcc.id.au
      office : +61399055779 jabber : heycam (at) jabber.org
    • Philippe Lhoste
      ... After some experimentation, it seems that ASV needs a missing-glyph element inside the font one. After I added one, it works fine, but of course (?), the
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 26, 2005
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        Cameron McCormack wrote:
        > Can someone help me get SVG fonts working in ASV? I write SVG documents
        > testing them against Batik and then when I get to trying them in ASV I'm
        > always disappointed. :(
        >
        > Anyway, this document:
        >
        > <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="400" height="400">
        > <defs>
        > <font>
        > <font-face font-family="CMR"/>
        > <glyph unicode="H" glyph-name="H" horiz-adv-x="750" d="M 33 0 m 580 605 c 0 36 2 47 79 47 h 24 v 31 c -35 -3 -109 -3 -147 -3 c -38 0 -113 0 -148 3 v -31 h 24 c 77 0 79 -11 79 -47 v -234 h -299 v 234 c 0 36 2 47 79 47 h 24 v 31 c -35 -3 -109 -3 -147 -3 c -38 0 -113 0 -148 3 v -31 h 24 c 77 0 79 -11 79 -47 v -527 c 0 -36 -2 -47 -79 -47 h -24 v -31 c 35 3 109 3 147 3 c 38 0 113 0 148 -3 v 31 h -24 c -77 0 -79 11 -79 47 v 262 h 299 v -262 c 0 -36 -2 -47 -79 -47 h -24 v -31 c 35 3 109 3 147 3 c 38 0 113 0 148 -3 v 31 h -24 c -77 0 -79 11 -79 47 z"/>
        > </font>
        > </defs>
        > <text x="200" y="200" font-size="40" font-family="CMR, sans-serif">HELLO</text>
        > </svg>
        >
        > works fine in Batik. The "H" of the "HELLO" is rendered in Computer
        > Modern Roman, and the "ELLO" is in some sans serif font. In ASV 3 under
        > Linux, it crashes firefox. In ASV 3 under Windows, I just get a blank
        > document.
        >
        > What can I do to make the font work in ASV?

        After some experimentation, it seems that ASV needs a missing-glyph
        element inside the font one.
        After I added one, it works fine, but of course (?), the glyphs E, L and
        O are rendered with the missing-glyph, not with the sans-serif font.

        I don't know the spec. enough to say if this is the required behavior or
        not.

        --
        Philippe Lhoste
        -- (near) Paris -- France
        -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
        -- For servers mangling my From and Reply-To fields,
        -- please send private answers to PhiLho(a)GMX.net
        -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
      • Cameron McCormack
        ... Thanks Philippe, this fixed the problem! ... Certainly I don t think a missing-glyph element is required. The choice of glyph when a missing-glyph element
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 26, 2005
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          Philippe Lhoste:
          > After some experimentation, it seems that ASV needs a missing-glyph
          > element inside the font one.
          > After I added one, it works fine, but of course (?), the glyphs E, L and
          > O are rendered with the missing-glyph, not with the sans-serif font.

          Thanks Philippe, this fixed the problem!

          > I don't know the spec. enough to say if this is the required behavior or
          > not.

          Certainly I don't think a missing-glyph element is required. The choice
          of glyph when a missing-glyph element is present and there is a fallback
          font to choose from I'm not too sure about. For example with:

          <font>
          <font-face font-family="test"/>
          <missing-glyph d="..."/>
          </font>

          <text font-family="test, serif">hi</text>

          my guess is that the 'h' and 'i' should be rendered with serif's glyphs,
          rather than with test's missing-glyph. At least, that is what Batik
          does. And it seems sensible. But in ASV it will use the missing-glyph.

          Cameron

          --
          e-mail : cam (at) mcc.id.au icq : 26955922
          web : http://mcc.id.au/ msn : cam-msn (at) aka.mcc.id.au
          office : +61399055779 jabber : heycam (at) jabber.org
        • Thomas DeWeese
          Hi Cameron, Phillipe, ... This is not conformant behavior from the CSS 2 spec (15.5 step 7): If there is a matching font face, but it doesn’t contain
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 26, 2005
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            Hi Cameron, Phillipe,

            Cameron McCormack wrote:
            > Philippe Lhoste:
            >
            >>After some experimentation, it seems that ASV needs a missing-glyph
            >>element inside the font one.
            >>After I added one, it works fine, but of course (?), the glyphs E, L and
            >>O are rendered with the missing-glyph, not with the sans-serif font.
            >
            >
            > Thanks Philippe, this fixed the problem!
            >
            >
            >>I don't know the spec. enough to say if this is the required behavior or
            >>not.

            This is not conformant behavior from the CSS 2 spec (15.5 step 7):

            If there is a matching font face, but it doesn’t contain
            glyph(s) for the current character(s), and if there is a next
            alternative ’font-family’ in the font sets, then repeat from
            step 2 with the next alternative ’font-family’.

            > <text font-family="test, serif">hi</text>
            >
            > my guess is that the 'h' and 'i' should be rendered with serif's glyphs,
            > rather than with test's missing-glyph. At least, that is what Batik
            > does. And it seems sensible. But in ASV it will use the missing-glyph.

            Batik's behavior is the correct behavior ASV's is not conformant
            to the CSS 2 specification.
          • Jon Ferraiolo
            Adobe acknowledges that there is a bug in ASV3 where it does not implement the font-family property correctly when a list of fonts are provided (or
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 26, 2005
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              Adobe acknowledges that there is a bug in ASV3 where it does not implement
              the 'font-family' property correctly when a list of fonts are provided (or
              presumed). The CSS2 spec says that you are supposed to look for a matching
              glyph in each of the fonts specified in the 'font-family' property (and
              presumably include at one generic font as a fallback font even if it isn't
              listed), but ASV3 uses a simplified and incorrect approach where it picks a
              single font for any text run and does not do per-glyph checks as required
              by the CSS2 spec. It is almost certain that Adobe will not issue a dot
              release of ASV3 to fix this bug. Any fixes in this area would only come as
              part of a major new release if/when such a major new release were issued.

              Jon Ferraiolo
              Adobe

              At 07:07 AM 6/26/2005, Thomas DeWeese wrote:
              >Hi Cameron, Phillipe,
              >
              >Cameron McCormack wrote:
              > > Philippe Lhoste:
              > >
              > >>After some experimentation, it seems that ASV needs a missing-glyph
              > >>element inside the font one.
              > >>After I added one, it works fine, but of course (?), the glyphs E, L and
              > >>O are rendered with the missing-glyph, not with the sans-serif font.
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks Philippe, this fixed the problem!
              > >
              > >
              > >>I don't know the spec. enough to say if this is the required behavior or
              > >>not.
              >
              > This is not conformant behavior from the CSS 2 spec (15.5 step 7):
              >
              > If there is a matching font face, but it doesn't contain
              > glyph(s) for the current character(s), and if there is a next
              > alternative 'font-family' in the font sets, then repeat from
              > step 2 with the next alternative 'font-family'.
              >
              > > <text font-family="test, serif">hi</text>
              > >
              > > my guess is that the 'h' and 'i' should be rendered with serif's glyphs,
              > > rather than with test's missing-glyph. At least, that is what Batik
              > > does. And it seems sensible. But in ASV it will use the missing-glyph.
              >
              > Batik's behavior is the correct behavior ASV's is not conformant
              >to the CSS 2 specification.
              >
              >
              >-----
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            • Rick Bullotta
              Any fixes in this area would only come as part of a major new release if/when such a major new release were issued Well, that s unambiguously ambiguous .
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 26, 2005
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                "Any fixes in this area would only come as part of a major new release
                if/when such a major new release were issued"

                Well, that's unambiguously ambiguous <g>.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Ferraiolo
                Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 3:41 PM
                To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [svg-developers] SVG fonts in ASV

                Adobe acknowledges that there is a bug in ASV3 where it does not
                implement
                the 'font-family' property correctly when a list of fonts are provided
                (or
                presumed). The CSS2 spec says that you are supposed to look for a
                matching
                glyph in each of the fonts specified in the 'font-family' property (and
                presumably include at one generic font as a fallback font even if it
                isn't
                listed), but ASV3 uses a simplified and incorrect approach where it
                picks a
                single font for any text run and does not do per-glyph checks as
                required
                by the CSS2 spec. It is almost certain that Adobe will not issue a dot
                release of ASV3 to fix this bug. Any fixes in this area would only come
                as
                part of a major new release if/when such a major new release were
                issued.

                Jon Ferraiolo
                Adobe
              • damird89
                ... Is this bug fix in ASV6 or same problem? Or is different problem? Thankyou, --Damir
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 27, 2005
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                  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Ferraiolo
                  <Jon.Ferraiolo@a...> wrote:

                  > Adobe acknowledges that there is a bug in ASV3
                  > where it does not implement the 'font-family'
                  > property correctly when a list of fonts are
                  > provided (or presumed).

                  > It is almost certain that Adobe will not issue a
                  > dot release of ASV3 to fix this bug. Any fixes
                  > in this area would only come as part of a major
                  > new release if/when such a major new release were
                  > issued.


                  Is this bug fix in ASV6 or same problem? Or is different problem?

                  Thankyou,

                  --Damir
                • Jon Ferraiolo
                  I am pretty sure that bug still exists in ASV6. Believe it or not, due to the way we use our type libraries in ASV3 and ASV6, it was difficult for us to fix
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 27, 2005
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                    I am pretty sure that bug still exists in ASV6. Believe it or not, due to
                    the way we use our type libraries in ASV3 and ASV6, it was difficult for us
                    to fix this bug in those codebases. I believe we have fixed the bug in our
                    new internal SVG code base, which would be part of the next major SVG
                    release if/when that release sees the light of day.

                    Jon

                    At 06:53 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote:
                    >--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Ferraiolo
                    ><Jon.Ferraiolo@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Adobe acknowledges that there is a bug in ASV3
                    > > where it does not implement the 'font-family'
                    > > property correctly when a list of fonts are
                    > > provided (or presumed).
                    >
                    > > It is almost certain that Adobe will not issue a
                    > > dot release of ASV3 to fix this bug. Any fixes
                    > > in this area would only come as part of a major
                    > > new release if/when such a major new release were
                    > > issued.
                    >
                    >
                    >Is this bug fix in ASV6 or same problem? Or is different problem?
                    >
                    >Thankyou,
                    >
                    >--Damir
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >-----
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sylvain Rouillard
                    Hi,Going straight to the point here, I hope you don t mind...What s the official position of Adobe concerning SVG these days? What key factors would push
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 27, 2005
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                      Hi,

                      Going straight to the point here, I hope you don't mind...

                      What's the official position of Adobe concerning SVG these days? What key
                      factors would push this internal SVG decoder in the sunlight or doom it to
                      stay in Adobe's archives? And finally (dare I ask), what are the officious
                      odds for one way or the other?

                      I'm hoping you can answer at least a few of these questions. The way I see it,
                      SVG's future is basically in Adobe's hands, so...

                      Cheers

                      Le Lundi 27 Juin 2005 20:36, Jon Ferraiolo a écrit :

                      > new internal SVG code base, which would be part of the next major SVG
                      > release if/when that release sees the light of day.





                      ___________________________________________________________________________
                      Appel audio GRATUIT partout dans le monde avec le nouveau Yahoo! Messenger
                      Téléchargez cette version sur http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com
                    • Doug Schepers
                      Hi, Sylvain- Until recently, I would have agreed with you. However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support. I doubt that IE7 will, because
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 27, 2005
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                        Hi, Sylvain-

                        Until recently, I would have agreed with you.

                        However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support. I doubt that
                        IE7 will, because Microsoft does not implement open standards unless they
                        absolutely have to. However, EvolGraphiX intends to release a browser plugin
                        based on Maxim Shemanarev's excellent AGG vector engine. Their stated intent
                        is to make it fully compliant with the Spec, which Adobe has never done.
                        Also, as I understand it, they are aiming toward a broader range of support,
                        with Mac and Linux treated as first-class citizens

                        In the mobile space, Adobe has never been a player, and there are at least 3
                        viewers there.

                        That being said, I think that Adobe has the opportunity to leverage the
                        authoring tools that they have acquired in buying Macromedia to create a
                        great environment for creating SVG/Flash content for desktop and mobile
                        devices. EvolGraphiX also has XStudio, which will be improved and tuned to
                        maximize their viewer.

                        In short, I think that the burden of SVG has been lifted from Adobe's
                        shoulders, which will hopefully improve its adoption for everyone... Adobe
                        included. The more people in the market, the more everyone has to gain; a
                        rising tide raises all ships.

                        Oh, and don't forget all the ancillary SVG tools, like Batik, InkScape,
                        SodiPodi, FOP, etc... They have nothing to do with Adobe, and they all
                        leverage and enhance SVG.

                        Regards-
                        Doug

                        doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                        www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.


                        Sylvain Rouillard wrote:
                        |
                        | Hi,
                        |
                        | Going straight to the point here, I hope you don't mind...
                        |
                        | What's the official position of Adobe concerning SVG these
                        | days? What key factors would push this internal SVG decoder
                        | in the sunlight or doom it to stay in Adobe's archives? And
                        | finally (dare I ask), what are the officious odds for one way
                        | or the other?
                        |
                        | I'm hoping you can answer at least a few of these questions.
                        | The way I see it, SVG's future is basically in Adobe's hands, so...
                        |
                        | Cheers
                        |
                        | Le Lundi 27 Juin 2005 20:36, Jon Ferraiolo a écrit :
                        |
                        | > new internal SVG code base, which would be part of the next
                        | major SVG
                        | > release if/when that release sees the light of day.
                        |
                        |
                        |
                        |
                        |
                        | ______________________________________________________________
                        | _____________
                        | Appel audio GRATUIT partout dans le monde avec le nouveau
                        | Yahoo! Messenger Téléchargez cette version sur
                        | http://fr.messenger.yahoo.com
                        |
                        |
                        |
                        | -----
                        | To unsubscribe send a message to:
                        | svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        | -or-
                        | visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click
                        | "edit my membership"
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                        |
                        |
                        |
                        |
                        |
                        | --
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                      • Rick Bullotta
                        That s not entirely a fair assessment. I think
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 28, 2005
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                          <<I doubt that IE7 will, because Microsoft does not implement open
                          standards unless they absolutely have to.>>

                          That's not entirely a fair assessment. I think the motivation is more
                          "commercial" than "peer pressure". I think their support of RSS in
                          Longhorn is a great step forward. Microsoft's SVG support has, indeed,
                          been sparse or non-existent though.

                          Back to the practical matters of supporting SVG in IE, Adobe's SVG
                          viewer has a much, MUCH, MUUUUCH better chance of widespread
                          installation by Trojan horsing in on the back of the PDF reader. Or via
                          Flash viewer support for SVG Tiny or Basic, which is on something like
                          98% of internet connected PC's.

                          I think it a stretch to think that a plug-in from a small company will
                          see huge installed base, particularly behind the corporate firewall, but
                          I guess you have to start somewhere! ;>

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Schepers
                          Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:10 PM
                          To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [svg-developers] The Future of SVG (was: SVG fonts in ASV)

                          Hi, Sylvain-

                          Until recently, I would have agreed with you.

                          However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support. I doubt
                          that
                          IE7 will, because Microsoft does not implement open standards unless
                          they
                          absolutely have to. However, EvolGraphiX intends to release a browser
                          plugin
                          based on Maxim Shemanarev's excellent AGG vector engine. Their stated
                          intent
                          is to make it fully compliant with the Spec, which Adobe has never done.
                          Also, as I understand it, they are aiming toward a broader range of
                          support,
                          with Mac and Linux treated as first-class citizens

                          ...

                          Regards-
                          Doug

                          doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                          www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.
                        • Sean
                          However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support. We ve been hearing this for a long time.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 28, 2005
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                            "However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support."

                            We've been hearing this for a long time.

                            Doug Schepers wrote:

                            >Hi, Sylvain-
                            >
                            >Until recently, I would have agreed with you.
                            >
                            >However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support. I doubt that
                            >IE7 will, because Microsoft does not implement open standards unless they
                            >absolutely have to. However, EvolGraphiX intends to release a browser plugin
                            >based on Maxim Shemanarev's excellent AGG vector engine. Their stated intent
                            >is to make it fully compliant with the Spec, which Adobe has never done.
                            >Also, as I understand it, they are aiming toward a broader range of support,
                            >with Mac and Linux treated as first-class citizens
                            >
                            >In the mobile space, Adobe has never been a player, and there are at least 3
                            >viewers there.
                            >
                            >That being said, I think that Adobe has the opportunity to leverage the
                            >authoring tools that they have acquired in buying Macromedia to create a
                            >great environment for creating SVG/Flash content for desktop and mobile
                            >devices. EvolGraphiX also has XStudio, which will be improved and tuned to
                            >maximize their viewer.
                            >
                            >In short, I think that the burden of SVG has been lifted from Adobe's
                            >shoulders, which will hopefully improve its adoption for everyone... Adobe
                            >included. The more people in the market, the more everyone has to gain; a
                            >rising tide raises all ships.
                            >
                            >Oh, and don't forget all the ancillary SVG tools, like Batik, InkScape,
                            >SodiPodi, FOP, etc... They have nothing to do with Adobe, and they all
                            >leverage and enhance SVG.
                            >
                            >Regards-
                            >Doug
                            >
                            >doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                            >www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.
                            >
                            >
                            >Sylvain Rouillard wrote:
                            >|
                            >| Hi,
                            >|
                            >| Going straight to the point here, I hope you don't mind...
                            >|
                            >| What's the official position of Adobe concerning SVG these
                            >| days? What key factors would push this internal SVG decoder
                            >| in the sunlight or doom it to stay in Adobe's archives? And
                            >| finally (dare I ask), what are the officious odds for one way
                            >| or the other?
                            >|
                            >| I'm hoping you can answer at least a few of these questions.
                            >| The way I see it, SVG's future is basically in Adobe's hands, so...
                            >|
                            >| Cheers
                            >|
                            >| Le Lundi 27 Juin 2005 20:36, Jon Ferraiolo a écrit :
                            >|
                            >| > new internal SVG code base, which would be part of the next
                            >| major SVG
                            >| > release if/when that release sees the light of day.
                            >|
                            >|
                            >|
                            >|
                            >|
                            >| ______________________________________________________________
                            >| _____________
                            >| Appel audio GRATUIT partout dans le monde avec le nouveau
                            >| Yahoo! Messenger Téléchargez cette version sur
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                          • Rick Bullotta
                            Reminds me of one of my favorite signs in a bar... Free Beer Tomorrow ... From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 28, 2005
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                              <joke>

                              Reminds me of one of my favorite signs in a bar...

                              "Free Beer Tomorrow"

                              </joke>
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean
                              Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:25 AM
                              To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [svg-developers] The Future of SVG

                              "However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support."

                              We've been hearing this for a long time.
                            • Doug Schepers
                              Free Beer Tonight would be more appropriate. The nightly Firefox builds have SVG turned on by default. MozSVG will make its prime-time appearance in Firefox
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 28, 2005
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                                "Free Beer Tonight" would be more appropriate. The nightly Firefox builds
                                have SVG turned on by default.

                                MozSVG will make its prime-time appearance in Firefox 1.1, which will
                                hopefully be in the next month or 2. It was due out in early June, but it
                                got pushed back.

                                But if you want to see a preview, download the nightly. Even better, be a
                                good Web Citizen and test it out and make bug reports.

                                Regards-
                                Doug

                                doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                                www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.


                                Rick Bullotta wrote:
                                |
                                | <joke>
                                |
                                | Reminds me of one of my favorite signs in a bar...
                                |
                                | "Free Beer Tomorrow"
                                |
                                | </joke>
                                | -----Original Message-----
                                | From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                | [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean
                                | Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:25 AM
                                | To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                | Subject: Re: [svg-developers] The Future of SVG
                                |
                                | "However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support."
                                |
                                | We've been hearing this for a long time.
                                |
                              • Rick Bullotta
                                I ll check it out tonight (with a beer in my hand)! Thanks for the heads up. Is browser SVG scripting support enabled? ... From:
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 28, 2005
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                                  I'll check it out tonight (with a beer in my hand)! Thanks for the
                                  heads up. Is browser<->SVG scripting support enabled?


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Schepers
                                  Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 5:22 PM
                                  To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [svg-developers] The Future of SVG

                                  "Free Beer Tonight" would be more appropriate. The nightly Firefox
                                  builds
                                  have SVG turned on by default.

                                  MozSVG will make its prime-time appearance in Firefox 1.1, which will
                                  hopefully be in the next month or 2. It was due out in early June, but
                                  it
                                  got pushed back.

                                  But if you want to see a preview, download the nightly. Even better, be
                                  a
                                  good Web Citizen and test it out and make bug reports.

                                  Regards-
                                  Doug

                                  doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                                  www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.
                                • Sean
                                  Free Beer Tonight isn t so useful if no one knows about it. The whole idea is to everyone with SVG viewing capabilities whether they know it or not.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 28, 2005
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                                    "Free Beer Tonight" isn't so useful if no one knows about it. The whole idea is to everyone with SVG viewing capabilities whether they know it or not.



                                    Doug Schepers wrote:

                                    >"Free Beer Tonight" would be more appropriate. The nightly Firefox builds
                                    >have SVG turned on by default.
                                    >
                                    >MozSVG will make its prime-time appearance in Firefox 1.1, which will
                                    >hopefully be in the next month or 2. It was due out in early June, but it
                                    >got pushed back.
                                    >
                                    >But if you want to see a preview, download the nightly. Even better, be a
                                    >good Web Citizen and test it out and make bug reports.
                                    >
                                    >Regards-
                                    >Doug
                                    >
                                    >doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                                    >www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Rick Bullotta wrote:
                                    >|
                                    >| <joke>
                                    >|
                                    >| Reminds me of one of my favorite signs in a bar...
                                    >|
                                    >| "Free Beer Tomorrow"
                                    >|
                                    >| </joke>
                                    >| -----Original Message-----
                                    >| From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                    >| [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean
                                    >| Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:25 AM
                                    >| To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                                    >| Subject: Re: [svg-developers] The Future of SVG
                                    >|
                                    >| "However, the FireFox browser will soon have native SVG support."
                                    >|
                                    >| We've been hearing this for a long time.
                                    >|
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >-----
                                    >To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >-or-
                                    >visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership"
                                    >----
                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
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                                  • Doug Schepers
                                    ... I m not sure if it is enabled in the same way that it is for ASV+IE... However, it does allow inline SVG (properly namespaced, of course), so you could
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 28, 2005
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                                      Rick Bullotta wrote:
                                      |
                                      | I'll check it out tonight (with a beer in my hand)! Thanks
                                      | for the heads up. Is browser<->SVG scripting support enabled?

                                      I'm not sure if it is enabled in the same way that it is for ASV+IE...
                                      However, it does allow inline SVG (properly namespaced, of course), so you
                                      could manipulate the SVG DOM that way. I'm curious if if works as an embed
                                      or in an iframe, too.

                                      Sean wrote:
                                      |
                                      | "Free Beer Tonight" isn't so useful if no one knows about it.
                                      | The whole idea is to everyone with SVG viewing capabilities
                                      | whether they know it or not.

                                      And that will be coming with the release of Firefox 1.1. I'm sorry that the
                                      team of volunteer Mozilla programmers has not worked fast enough for you.

                                      Regards-
                                      Doug

                                      doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                                      www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.
                                    • Holger Will
                                      ... yes it is, on you got the getSVGDocument() method, and on you can use contentDocument and contentWindow. as far as i can tell the only
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 29, 2005
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                                        Doug Schepers schrieb:

                                        > Rick Bullotta wrote:
                                        > |
                                        > | I'll check it out tonight (with a beer in my hand)! Thanks
                                        > | for the heads up. Is browser<->SVG scripting support enabled?
                                        >
                                        > I'm not sure if it is enabled in the same way that it is for ASV+IE...

                                        yes it is, on <embed> you got the getSVGDocument() method, and on
                                        <object> you can use contentDocument and contentWindow.
                                        as far as i can tell the only missing part is the getWindow() method on
                                        <embed>. so if you need to have functions defiend in your SVG and you
                                        want to access them from your html,
                                        youll have to use <object>. as for SVG->HTML comunication, everything
                                        works fine in mozilla, you can use either parent or top, to access the
                                        embedding HTML.

                                        here is a very basic example that works in mozilla and IE+ASV , using embed:
                                        http://www.treebuilder.de/svg/interdoc/embed.html

                                        > However, it does allow inline SVG (properly namespaced, of course), so you
                                        > could manipulate the SVG DOM that way. I'm curious if if works as an embed
                                        > or in an iframe, too.

                                        for embed see comment above.
                                        i personaly havent tried with iframe in mozilla yet, but i think that
                                        there is an interoperability problem when using iframe, because Internet
                                        Explorer creates an implicit
                                        HTML document containig an embed, in mozilla, there is no such implicit
                                        HTML document.

                                        >
                                        > Sean wrote:
                                        > |
                                        > | "Free Beer Tonight" isn't so useful if no one knows about it.

                                        Sean, you know now ! help spreading the word, go post this info in your
                                        blog, tell the people in mailing lists and newsgroups about the "free
                                        beer"(SVG support in Mozillas nightly builds).
                                        and of course you could help improve the quality of the implementation,
                                        by testing and filing bugs.

                                        > | The whole idea is to everyone with SVG viewing capabilities
                                        > | whether they know it or not.
                                        >
                                        > And that will be coming with the release of Firefox 1.1. I'm sorry
                                        > that the
                                        > team of volunteer Mozilla programmers has not worked fast enough for you.
                                        >
                                        > Regards-
                                        > Doug
                                        >
                                        > doug . schepers @ vectoreal.com
                                        > www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.
                                      • Andreas Neumann
                                        ... the ... yes, it works http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/samples/canvas.shtml is an example where HTML checkboxes can turn on/off layers in SVG. It works in
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 29, 2005
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                                          --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Bullotta"
                                          <Rick.Bullotta@l...> wrote:
                                          > I'll check it out tonight (with a beer in my hand)! Thanks for
                                          the
                                          > heads up. Is browser<->SVG scripting support enabled?

                                          yes, it works

                                          http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/samples/canvas.shtml is an example
                                          where HTML checkboxes can turn on/off layers in SVG. It works in
                                          MozillaSVG (e.g. deerpark).

                                          Andreas
                                        • Jonathan Watt
                                          ... Actually you can use . You can then use the W3C standard property defaultView on the SVGDocument object to access the SVG document s window
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 29, 2005
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                                            On 6/29/05, Holger Will <holger@...> wrote:
                                            > Doug Schepers schrieb:
                                            >
                                            > > Rick Bullotta wrote:
                                            > > |
                                            > > | I'll check it out tonight (with a beer in my hand)! Thanks
                                            > > | for the heads up. Is browser<->SVG scripting support enabled?
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm not sure if it is enabled in the same way that it is for ASV+IE...
                                            >
                                            > yes it is, on <embed> you got the getSVGDocument() method, and on
                                            > <object> you can use contentDocument and contentWindow.
                                            > as far as i can tell the only missing part is the getWindow() method on
                                            > <embed>. so if you need to have functions defiend in your SVG and you
                                            > want to access them from your html,
                                            > youll have to use <object>.

                                            Actually you can use <embed>. You can then use the W3C standard
                                            property 'defaultView' on the SVGDocument object to access the SVG
                                            document's 'window' object (and hence the scripts defined in it). So
                                            you can do all types of cross-document scripting in Firefox, but just
                                            in a different (i.e. W3C standard) way. I've put up heavily commented
                                            demos showing how to script from HTML to an embedded SVG document and
                                            it's scripts here:

                                            http://jwatt.org/svg/demos/scripting-across-embed.html
                                            http://jwatt.org/svg/demos/scripting-across-object.html
                                          • Holger Will
                                            ... oh, i didnt know about the defaultView, good to know :-) ... will these files stay at this url? the question is comming up regularly, and in the future i
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 29, 2005
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                                              Jonathan Watt schrieb:

                                              > On 6/29/05, Holger Will <holger@...> wrote:
                                              > > Doug Schepers schrieb:
                                              > >
                                              > > > Rick Bullotta wrote:
                                              > > > |
                                              > > > | I'll check it out tonight (with a beer in my hand)! Thanks
                                              > > > | for the heads up. Is browser<->SVG scripting support enabled?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I'm not sure if it is enabled in the same way that it is for ASV+IE...
                                              > >
                                              > > yes it is, on <embed> you got the getSVGDocument() method, and on
                                              > > <object> you can use contentDocument and contentWindow.
                                              > > as far as i can tell the only missing part is the getWindow() method on
                                              > > <embed>. so if you need to have functions defiend in your SVG and you
                                              > > want to access them from your html,
                                              > > youll have to use <object>.
                                              >
                                              > Actually you can use <embed>. You can then use the W3C standard
                                              > property 'defaultView' on the SVGDocument object to access the SVG
                                              > document's 'window' object (and hence the scripts defined in it).

                                              oh, i didnt know about the defaultView, good to know :-)

                                              > So
                                              > you can do all types of cross-document scripting in Firefox, but just
                                              > in a different (i.e. W3C standard) way. I've put up heavily commented
                                              > demos showing how to script from HTML to an embedded SVG document and
                                              > it's scripts here:
                                              >
                                              > http://jwatt.org/svg/demos/scripting-across-embed.html
                                              > http://jwatt.org/svg/demos/scripting-across-object.html
                                              >
                                              will these files stay at this url? the question is comming up regularly,
                                              and in the future i would like to point people to these fine examples.

                                              all the best
                                              Holger
                                            • Jonathan Watt
                                              ... Yes, I intend to keep them there. Thanks Holger.
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jul 1, 2005
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                                                On 6/30/05, Holger Will <holger@...> wrote:
                                                > Jonathan Watt schrieb:
                                                >
                                                > > So
                                                > > you can do all types of cross-document scripting in Firefox, but just
                                                > > in a different (i.e. W3C standard) way. I've put up heavily commented
                                                > > demos showing how to script from HTML to an embedded SVG document and
                                                > > it's scripts here:
                                                > >
                                                > > http://jwatt.org/svg/demos/scripting-across-embed.html
                                                > > http://jwatt.org/svg/demos/scripting-across-object.html
                                                > >
                                                > will these files stay at this url? the question is comming up regularly,
                                                > and in the future i would like to point people to these fine examples.
                                                >

                                                Yes, I intend to keep them there. Thanks Holger.
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