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Re: [svg-developers] Mozilla vs Adobe

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  • Ronan Oger
    ... yes, SVG is supposed to be portable. But nobody ever forced any of us to WRITE portable SVG code, and nobody ever said SVG embedded in HTML would be
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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      On Friday 01 October 2004 03:41, Rafael Vidal Aroca wrote:
      > Btw, wasn't svg supposed to be portable, etc....Adobe made a viewer
      > that works well only in ie....and mozilla implementation is quite
      > differente...

      yes, SVG is supposed to be portable. But nobody ever forced any of us to WRITE
      portable SVG code, and nobody ever said SVG embedded in HTML would be
      portable except inline. And the embed tag is not a legal tag.

      In other words, we have on one but ourselves to blame for taking advantage of
      non-compliant features supported in one implementation and finding that they
      do not work in another implementation. I myself am partly to blame for
      this... It took me 2 years to tighten the compliance of the Perl SVG module
      in order to support Mozilla because I was satisfied for a long time that ASV
      was really the only player on the market. As this is changing, I am having to
      change my perspective and update my code and working practices.

      But is this not the nature of web development...? HTML went through the same
      kinks in the mid 1990s, and people always seem take the pragmatic solution
      over the formal solution

      ronan

      --
      The more we disagree, the more chance there is that at least one of us
      is right.

      --> contact me: ronan at roasp dot com
    • Ronan Oger
      ... I absolutely agree. In the end, software browser developers are like all other developers and apply limited funds to do the best they can on a complicated
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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        On Friday 01 October 2004 06:12, Vernari-Corami wrote:
        > Too many money...too much power...these techs are too politicized for
        > us...we are talking as "technician" or as "purist"... where the product has
        > to be the best... Unfortunately things don't go always in taht way..

        I absolutely agree.

        In the end, software browser developers are like all other developers and
        apply limited funds to do the best they can on a complicated problem. SVG
        implementations will always have shortcomings, and as the number of
        implementations grows, SVG developers will need to make their own decisions
        about which functionality they need to work with based on the implementation
        they want to support.

        Ronan

        --
        The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that
        will always be useful and which never will grow dim or doubtful.
        -- Mark Twain.

        --> contact me: ronan at roasp dot com
      • Philippe Lhoste
        ... On a practical note: I first used the method I saw on several pages:
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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          Sean Montague wrote:
          > I've been reading much the last two days on which is more practical, IE
          > Adobe plugin or Mozilla native SVG. My biggest concern with Mozilla is
          > that it no longer supports the embed tag. The object tag is not a
          > useful replacement for embed in that java script becomes useless. So I
          > have a choice, use embed and no Mozilla user can visit my site, or don't
          > and insert all my SVG into an HTML document. I've started to look into
          > the inline SVG, but I'm skeptical that I can do the same things I'm
          > doing with the embed tag and php. My client's SVG application will not
          > work in Mozilla. To make it work in Mozilla would be cost prohibitive.
          > Neither Adobe or Mozilla seem to really care about SVG. I started to
          > wonder what it would take to make Mozilla care. They accept donations.
          > Would it be possible for this list to pool money and encourage Mozilla
          > to implement SVG more fully and expeditiously? Just a thought.

          On a practical note:
          I first used the method I saw on several pages:

          <object data="Foo.svg" width="640" height="480" type="image/svg+xml">
          <!-- embed shouldn't be necessary, but is here for old Netscape Nav.
          support -->
          <embed name="Foo" src="Foo.svg" width="640" height="480"
          type="image/svg+xml" />
          <noembed>If you see this text instead of an image,
          you should go fetch a good SVG viewer...</noembed>
          </object>

          It is conformant (using <object> with is standard HTML 4/XHTML) and
          practical (falling back on <embed> for browsers not understanding
          <object>: Netscape 4) and you can even replace the warning text by a
          bitmap image to show the result for those without plug in...

          But after reading on this list that it won't work with ASV3 on IE (see
          <http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html>) if you use
          JavaScript, I just use <embed>.

          Now, you mention that Mozilla goes the purist way, ignoring the <embed>
          tag which ironically was Netscape specific (but adopted by Microsoft)...

          Well, a possible solution can be the reverse of the purist way above:

          <embed name="Foo" src="Foo.svg" width="640" height="480"
          type="image/svg+xml" />
          <noembed>
          <object data="Foo.svg" width="640" height="480" type="image/svg+xml">
          If you see this text instead of an image,
          you should go fetch a good SVG viewer...
          </object>
          </noembed>

          Not very nice, but should work on all browsers.

          BTW, Jim Ley advocates the <iframe> way, but since I read this mailing
          list, which is quite recent (my reading!), I have seen no practical
          example of the way of doing this.
          I suppose you already gave this way, Jim, but can you repeat it there
          for the enlightment of the newbies like me?
          Thank you.

          --
          Philippe Lhoste
          -- (near) Paris -- France
          -- Professional programmer and amateur artist
          -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
          -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
        • lance dyas
          ... Abandoning communication with HTML there just seem to be some pretty basic problems that dont involve any real stretching. My code works in Adobe both
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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            Ronan Oger wrote:

            > On Friday 01 October 2004 03:41, Rafael Vidal Aroca wrote:
            > > Btw, wasn't svg supposed to be portable, etc....Adobe made a viewer
            > > that works well only in ie....and mozilla implementation is quite
            > > differente...
            >
            > yes, SVG is supposed to be portable. But nobody ever forced any of us
            > to WRITE
            > portable SVG code, and nobody ever said SVG embedded in HTML would be
            > portable except inline. And the embed tag is not a legal tag.
            >
            > In other words, we have on one but ourselves to blame for taking
            > advantage of
            > non-compliant features supported in one implementation and finding
            > that they
            > do not work in another implementation. I myself am partly to blame for
            > this... It took me 2 years to tighten the compliance of the Perl SVG
            > module
            > in order to support Mozilla because I was satisfied for a long time
            > that ASV
            > was really the only player on the market. As this is changing, I am
            > having to
            > change my perspective and update my code and working practices.

            Abandoning communication with HTML there just seem to be some pretty
            basic problems that dont involve any real stretching. My code works in
            Adobe both versions and Batik and it even worked in Corel though with
            some slowness, I think its a fair assertion that Mozillla's SVG
            implementation is behind the curve

            Things I can't seem to get to work in mozilla / firefox (and no
            examples on their web site uses or works on these either)... external
            style sheets... and linked images (.... oddly embedding images with an
            image tag does work fair bet its the xlink that runs afoul.)... oh yes
            and a gzip svgz always err out also. (note I am not even mentioning
            filters and fill patterns... which would be nice but)

            http://www.dyasdesigns.com/svg/mtsthelens.svg
            http://www.dyasdesigns.com/svg/mtsthelens.svgz

            the styles in the above are inline so that part is covered but image tag
            fails in these
            also the html img tag fails in the svg mixed example on their example
            web site since the link is
            bad and transported on to my site and replaced with an image it doesnt
            work either? and this
            is an html foreign object!

            The lack of coping with gzipped files is the last straw started with
            only getting embedded images... the size of SVGs with any real
            information balloons off of practicality scale.

            Lance Dyas
            "wishing he could support Mozilla based SVG but doesnt have the time to
            do the programing for them"










            --
            Lance Dyas

            Google Me under : Lost Worlds Roleplaying

            -- Lance Dyas
            Lost Worlds Roleplaying - at the Decision Driven Gaming Center
            http://www.dyasdesigns.com/roleplay/LostWorlds
          • Holger Will
            Hi lance im wondering if u use an actual build ? -external styles do work for me: http://www.treebuilder.de/svg/css/styler.svg if this file does not work ,you
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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              Hi lance
              im wondering if u use an actual build ?
              -external styles do work for me:
              http://www.treebuilder.de/svg/css/styler.svg
              if this file does not work ,you should download a newer build.

              -gzip is also supported, see:
              http://www.treebuilder.de/svg/gaussianNumbers/lf2.svgz
              (ok, it still does not support gradients, but i expect that quite soon)
              you have to set the right http header:
              content-encoding: x-gzip

              -i can not seem to get html:img to work either. a workaround would be to
              use html:object to include other svg files.
              you are right that it is still not as far developed as for example ASV
              or BATIK, but its under havy development.
              there are new builds on a daily basis.

              here is a file that works in ASV,BATIK and MozSVG , when you let this
              run for a while,
              in ASV and BATIK the shape looses its symetrie , whereas in mozilla the
              shape stayes symetric all the time.
              http://www.treebuilder.de/svg/funkybezier/symbezier3.svg

              have fun
              Holger









              lance dyas wrote:

              >
              >
              > Abandoning communication with HTML there just seem to be some pretty
              > basic problems that dont involve any real stretching. My code works in
              > Adobe both versions and Batik and it even worked in Corel though with
              > some slowness, I think its a fair assertion that Mozillla's SVG
              > implementation is behind the curve
              >
              > Things I can't seem to get to work in mozilla / firefox (and no
              > examples on their web site uses or works on these either)... external
              > style sheets... and linked images (.... oddly embedding images with an
              > image tag does work fair bet its the xlink that runs afoul.)... oh yes
              > and a gzip svgz always err out also. (note I am not even mentioning
              > filters and fill patterns... which would be nice but)
              >
              > http://www.dyasdesigns.com/svg/mtsthelens.svg
              > http://www.dyasdesigns.com/svg/mtsthelens.svgz
              >
              > the styles in the above are inline so that part is covered but image tag
              > fails in these
              > also the html img tag fails in the svg mixed example on their example
              > web site since the link is
              > bad and transported on to my site and replaced with an image it doesnt
              > work either? and this
              > is an html foreign object!
              >
              > The lack of coping with gzipped files is the last straw started with
              > only getting embedded images... the size of SVGs with any real
              > information balloons off of practicality scale.
              >
              > Lance Dyas
              > "wishing he could support Mozilla based SVG but doesnt have the time to
              > do the programing for them"
              >
              >
            • Martin Honnen
              ... Why does Mozilla no longer support the embed tag? Which Mozilla version is no longer supporting the embed tag?
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Montague"
                <smontague@o...> wrote:
                > I've been reading much the last two days on which is more practical, IE
                > Adobe plugin or Mozilla native SVG. My biggest concern with Mozilla is
                > that it no longer supports the embed tag. The object tag is not a
                > useful replacement for embed in that java script becomes useless.

                Why does Mozilla no longer support the embed tag? Which Mozilla
                version is no longer supporting the embed tag?
              • Jim Ley
                lance dyas wrote in message news:415D5993.9020105@inetnebr.com... ... In scripting terms it s very advanced, if my patch can make it
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                  "lance dyas" <lancelot@...> wrote in message
                  news:415D5993.9020105@......
                  > I think its a fair assertion that Mozillla's SVG
                  > implementation is behind the curve

                  In scripting terms it's very advanced, if my patch can make it in, then
                  there'll be very little script differences between ASV/Batik and Mozilla -
                  foafnaut which is a few thousands lines of script, and is nothing without
                  it, works fine. The problems are only in the lack of some rendering support
                  (opacity the most noticeable) but Script is great.

                  > Things I can't seem to get to work in mozilla / firefox (and no
                  > examples on their web site uses or works on these either)... external
                  > style sheets...

                  Possibly a mime-type issue.

                  > oh yes and a gzip svgz always err out also.

                  A problem with your server (and debatably a spec which this isn't clear on)
                  but you should have a content-encoding header, in which case it works fine.

                  Cheers,

                  Jim.
                • Jim Ley
                  Philippe Lhoste wrote in message news:415D199E.6090001@GMX.net... ... Sure it s very simple:
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                    "Philippe Lhoste" <pl-mlnl@...> wrote in message
                    news:415D199E.6090001@......
                    > BTW, Jim Ley advocates the <iframe> way, but since I read this mailing
                    > list, which is quite recent (my reading!), I have seen no practical
                    > example of the way of doing this.
                    > I suppose you already gave this way, Jim, but can you repeat it there
                    > for the enlightment of the newbies like me?

                    Sure it's very simple:

                    <iframe src="thing.svg" id="chicken" style="height:100px;width:100px">No
                    Iframe support, put embed here if you care about NN4!</iframe>

                    then if you want to do scripting then

                    chicken.document.embeds[0]

                    is the same as the normal document.embeds[0], it's standard (if you use a
                    frameset DTD) and it's well defined. - if you want links to change the
                    parent window (as it would in embed) then you'll need target="top" in them.

                    Oh and callbacks from the SVG should go via top. rather than parent (which
                    you're gonna want to do with ASV6 preview anyway)

                    Cheers.

                    Jim.
                  • lance dyas
                    ... They now work for me but apparently they didnt earlier and I hadnt retested... ... I changed my encoding settings on my server at home now I need to do it
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 1, 2004
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                      Holger Will wrote:

                      > Hi lance
                      > im wondering if u use an actual build ?
                      > -external styles do work for me:
                      > http://www.treebuilder.de/svg/css/styler.svg
                      > if this file does not work ,you should download a newer build.

                      They now work for me but apparently they didnt earlier and I hadnt
                      retested...

                      >
                      > -gzip is also supported, see:
                      > http://www.treebuilder.de/svg/gaussianNumbers/lf2.svgz
                      > (ok, it still does not support gradients, but i expect that quite soon)
                      > you have to set the right http header:
                      > content-encoding: x-gzip

                      I changed my encoding settings on my server at home now I need to do it
                      at work too and now this works as well

                      If I could get images other than imbeded ones to work, I guess I could
                      move on to complaining about
                      filll patterns, gradients and filters

                      >
                      > -i can not seem to get html:img to work either. a workaround would be to
                      > use html:object to include other svg files.

                      I want jpg's and pngs hell it would be really really nice If I could
                      use JP2;s such.

                      I would prefer an image tag if it would properly xlink

                      > you are right that it is still not as far developed as for example ASV
                      > or BATIK, but its under havy development.
                      > there are new builds on a daily basis.

                      I do download frequently but get discouraged and resort to plug ins

                      >
                      > here is a file that works in ASV,BATIK and MozSVG , when you let this
                      > run for a while,
                      > in ASV and BATIK the shape looses its symetrie , whereas in mozilla the
                      > shape stayes symetric all the time.
                      > http://www.treebuilder.de/svg/funkybezier/symbezier3.svg
                      >
                      hmmm the above is a black square in my yesterdays build of svg enabled
                      firefox

                      > have fun
                      > Holger
                      >
                      >
                      Thanks for the help guys!
                    • Jonathan Watt
                      On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:50:25 -0000, Martin Honnen ... There has never been support for SVG content using the embed tag in any version of Mozilla. The bug to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 3, 2004
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                        On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:50:25 -0000, Martin Honnen
                        <honnen_martin@...> wrote:
                        > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Montague"
                        > <smontague@o...> wrote:
                        > > I've been reading much the last two days on which is more practical, IE
                        > > Adobe plugin or Mozilla native SVG. My biggest concern with Mozilla is
                        > > that it no longer supports the embed tag. The object tag is not a
                        > > useful replacement for embed in that java script becomes useless.
                        >
                        > Why does Mozilla no longer support the embed tag? Which Mozilla
                        > version is no longer supporting the embed tag?

                        There has never been support for SVG content using the embed tag in
                        any version of Mozilla. The bug to have this changed is
                        https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=240408
                      • Philippe Lhoste
                        ... Uh? Interesting discussion, showing Mozilla people are stubborn when someone asks to support a practice with wide use, but which is deprecated/non
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 4, 2004
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                          Jonathan Watt wrote:
                          > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:50:25 -0000, Martin Honnen
                          > <honnen_martin@...> wrote:
                          >> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Montague"
                          >> <smontague@o...> wrote:
                          >> > I've been reading much the last two days on which is more practical, IE
                          >> > Adobe plugin or Mozilla native SVG. My biggest concern with Mozilla is
                          >> > that it no longer supports the embed tag. The object tag is not a
                          >> > useful replacement for embed in that java script becomes useless.
                          >>
                          >> Why does Mozilla no longer support the embed tag? Which Mozilla
                          >> version is no longer supporting the embed tag?
                          >
                          > There has never been support for SVG content using the embed tag in
                          > any version of Mozilla. The bug to have this changed is
                          > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=240408

                          Uh? Interesting discussion, showing Mozilla people are stubborn when
                          someone asks to support a practice with wide use, but which is
                          deprecated/non official...

                          But I use Mozilla 1.7, and it loads a SVG from an HTML page using a pure
                          <embed> (with ASV3), so I wonder how it works...

                          --
                          Philippe Lhoste
                          -- (near) Paris -- France
                          -- Professional programmer and amateur artist
                          -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr
                          -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
                        • Martin Honnen
                          ... practical, IE ... Mozilla is ... That clarifies things for me, I was thinking about support for the embed element to have things rendered by a plugin but
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 4, 2004
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                            --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Watt <wattie@g...> wrote:
                            > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:50:25 -0000, Martin Honnen
                            > <honnen_martin@y...> wrote:
                            > > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Montague"
                            > > <smontague@o...> wrote:
                            > > > I've been reading much the last two days on which is more
                            practical, IE
                            > > > Adobe plugin or Mozilla native SVG. My biggest concern with
                            Mozilla is
                            > > > that it no longer supports the embed tag. The object tag is not a
                            > > > useful replacement for embed in that java script becomes useless.
                            > >
                            > > Why does Mozilla no longer support the embed tag? Which Mozilla
                            > > version is no longer supporting the embed tag?
                            >
                            > There has never been support for SVG content using the embed tag in
                            > any version of Mozilla. The bug to have this changed is
                            > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=240408

                            That clarifies things for me, I was thinking about support for the
                            embed element to have things rendered by a plugin but obviously Sean
                            was thinking about using specialized Mozilla builds that have SVG
                            support built-in and don't use a plugin.
                          • AndrewWatt2001@aol.com
                            In a message dated 10/4/2004 2:24:36 AM GMT Daylight Time, wattie@gmail.com ... Jonathan, My memory for the distant past of SVG support (around 2000 or 2001)
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 4, 2004
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                              In a message dated 10/4/2004 2:24:36 AM GMT Daylight Time, wattie@...
                              writes:

                              > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:50:25 -0000, Martin Honnen
                              > <honnen_martin@...> wrote:
                              > >--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Montague"
                              > ><smontague@o...> wrote:
                              > >>I've been reading much the last two days on which is more practical, IE
                              > >>Adobe plugin or Mozilla native SVG. My biggest concern with Mozilla is
                              > >>that it no longer supports the embed tag. The object tag is not a
                              > >>useful replacement for embed in that java script becomes useless.
                              > >
                              > >Why does Mozilla no longer support the embed tag? Which Mozilla
                              > >version is no longer supporting the embed tag?
                              >
                              > There has never been support for SVG content using the embed tag in
                              > any version of Mozilla. The bug to have this changed is
                              > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=240408

                              Jonathan,

                              My memory for the distant past of SVG support (around 2000 or 2001) may be
                              failing me but it used to be possible to run SVG content successfully in Mozilla
                              using the embed element and the Adobe viewer until (here I can't corroborate
                              my hazy recollection) Mozilla 0.9.3. Around Mozilla 0.9.3 SVG support using
                              the embed element broke. SVG that used JavaScript broke first. I don't now
                              recall the version numbers where that happened. It's all pretty ancient history in
                              any case.

                              If you were making the narrower point that Mozilla never natively supported
                              SVG using the embed element then you are correct, as far as I am aware.

                              Andrew Watt


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jonathan Watt
                              On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 08:45:28 EDT, andrewwatt2001@aol.com ... That was indeed what I meant -- sorry I didn t make that clear. Plug-ins such as ASV version *6*
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 4, 2004
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                                On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 08:45:28 EDT, andrewwatt2001@...
                                <andrewwatt2001@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > In a message dated 10/4/2004 2:24:36 AM GMT Daylight Time, wattie@...
                                > writes:
                                >
                                > > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:50:25 -0000, Martin Honnen
                                > > <honnen_martin@...> wrote:
                                > > >--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Sean Montague"
                                > > ><smontague@o...> wrote:
                                > > >>I've been reading much the last two days on which is more practical, IE
                                > > >>Adobe plugin or Mozilla native SVG. My biggest concern with Mozilla is
                                > > >>that it no longer supports the embed tag. The object tag is not a
                                > > >>useful replacement for embed in that java script becomes useless.
                                > > >
                                > > >Why does Mozilla no longer support the embed tag? Which Mozilla
                                > > >version is no longer supporting the embed tag?
                                > >
                                > > There has never been support for SVG content using the embed tag in
                                > > any version of Mozilla. The bug to have this changed is
                                > > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=240408
                                >
                                > Jonathan,
                                >
                                > My memory for the distant past of SVG support (around 2000 or 2001) may be
                                > failing me but it used to be possible to run SVG content successfully in Mozilla
                                > using the embed element and the Adobe viewer until (here I can't corroborate
                                > my hazy recollection) Mozilla 0.9.3. Around Mozilla 0.9.3 SVG support using
                                > the embed element broke. SVG that used JavaScript broke first. I don't now
                                > recall the version numbers where that happened. It's all pretty ancient history in
                                > any case.
                                >
                                > If you were making the narrower point that Mozilla never natively supported
                                > SVG using the embed element then you are correct, as far as I am aware.

                                That was indeed what I meant -- sorry I didn't make that clear.
                                Plug-ins such as ASV version *6* beta apparently do work with recent
                                versions of Mozilla (version 3 doesn't any more as you said), but note
                                that this beta may also break in the future since it uses internal
                                Mozilla interfaces that haven't been frozen. For contributors or those
                                that want to keep track of progress on this front the bug is:

                                https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115528

                                Regards,
                                Jonathan
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