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Just yesterday I thought ...

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  • AndrewWatt2001@aol.com
    In a message dated 03/04/01 20:56:33 GMT Daylight Time, tobiasreif@yahoo.com ... Tobi, I don t know if you saw the recent post about the X-Smiles browser. An
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 3 3:20 PM
      In a message dated 03/04/01 20:56:33 GMT Daylight Time, tobiasreif@...
      writes:


      just yesterday I thought:

      SVG won't ever make it into mainstream;

      it could, if:
      1)
      Browsers would support it, as a namespace that can be
      mixed with XSLT, XHTML, SMIL, in high-performance (C-)
      implementations
      (what is so crazy about the idea that adobe could
      release a browser, or donate the source-code of their
      plugin to moz, opera, IE and NN?)


      Tobi,

      I don't know if you saw the recent post about the X-Smiles browser.

      An XSL-FO / SVG / SMIL / XForms browser is already here, at least in a
      pre-release version.

      Take a look at it  - it is exciting stuff.

      http://www.x-smiles.org

      It is Java so you might not like that. :)

      I think there is a real opportunity here for the company that can produce a
      viable multiple namespace XML browser. ... It will be a new world. That will
      be when real XML Web developers will begin to have a real incentive to move
      on from HTML.

      But we need to be realistic. SVG is not yet at full Recommendation. As I said
      in my post of a couple of weeks ago, the SVG full REC may well not be here
      until end May at the earliest due to its dependencies on SMIL.

      XSL-FO is still at Candidate Recommendation stage. SMIL 2.0 is a Working
      Draft (with a Candidate Recommendation supposedly following soon). So it is
      not surprising that new products don't support them yet.

      But give it a few more months and I think there will be a lot of interesting
      new products including multi-namespace browsers.

      We do live in very interesting times.

      Regards

      Andrew Watt
    • don_xml@hotmail.com
      Andrew, There is already a viable multiple namespace XML Browser. It s called Internet Explorer 5.5. That s what behaviors is all about. It s Microsoft s
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 4 8:28 AM
        Andrew,

        There is already a viable multiple namespace XML Browser. It's
        called Internet Explorer 5.5. That's what behaviors is all about.
        It's Microsoft's term for how namespace engines should interface with
        their browser. The problem with multiple namespace XML Browsers is
        that the W3C didn't come up with a standard API for namespace engines
        to interface with the browser.

        Don XML


        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        Andrew said:

        > I think there is a real opportunity here for the company that can
        produce a
        > viable multiple namespace XML browser. ... It will be a new world.
        That will
        > be when real XML Web developers will begin to have a real incentive
        to move
        > on from HTML.
        >
        > But we need to be realistic. SVG is not yet at full Recommendation.
        As I said
        > in my post of a couple of weeks ago, the SVG full REC may well not
        be here
        > until end May at the earliest due to its dependencies on SMIL.
        >
        > XSL-FO is still at Candidate Recommendation stage. SMIL 2.0 is a
        Working
        > Draft (with a Candidate Recommendation supposedly following soon).
        So it is
        > not surprising that new products don't support them yet.
        >
        > But give it a few more months and I think there will be a lot of
        interesting
        > new products including multi-namespace browsers.
        >
        > We do live in very interesting times.
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > Andrew Watt
      • Robin Berjon
        ... Don, would you care to explain what you mean by the above ? If the browser provides a DOM2 interface (including the Events, View, and StyleSheet modules)
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 4 8:34 AM
          At 15:28 04/04/2001 +0000, don_xml@... wrote:
          >The problem with multiple namespace XML Browsers is
          >that the W3C didn't come up with a standard API for namespace engines
          >to interface with the browser.

          Don, would you care to explain what you mean by the above ? If the browser
          provides a DOM2 interface (including the Events, View, and StyleSheet
          modules) what keeps a namespace engine from interfacing with the browser ?

          -- robin b.
          "Many people would sooner die than think. In fact, they do." - Bertrand
          Russell
        • Antoine Quint, Knowscape://
          ... Yes but mainly no. IE 5.5 and IE 6 simulate namespaces through Binary Behaviours but in the end you just get tags or converted code and such.
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 4 8:36 AM
            > There is already a viable multiple namespace XML Browser. It's
            > called Internet Explorer 5.5. That's what behaviors is all about.
            > It's Microsoft's term for how namespace engines should interface with
            > their browser. The problem with multiple namespace XML Browsers is
            > that the W3C didn't come up with a standard API for namespace engines
            > to interface with the browser.

            Yes but mainly no. IE 5.5 and IE 6 simulate namespaces through Binary Behaviours but in
            the end you just get <onject> tags or converted code and such. While a binary behaviour is
            the best thing we can use now in IE (and I thank you for writing one) IE does not know
            squad about namespaces... it would be good though! Xsmiles is a great project, still I
            doubt it will ever become a browser for wide audiences, a Java browser is bound to be too
            heavy for animating SVG mixed with SMIL contents and such.

            I don't really understand what you mean about a namespace API though...

            antoine
            _______________________________________________________________________

            Antoine Quint <antoine@...>
            eXtensible developer

            k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com

            Knowscape LLC - 151 First Avenue, Suite 68 - New York, NY 10003 - USA
            +1 212 504 8168 tel
            +1 212 202 7700 fax

            Knowscape SARL - 9ter, rue Auguste Barbier 75011 Paris - France
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            _______________________________________________________________________
          • Don XML
            This email may get too technical for some people, so you may want to ignore it (if you don’t already ignore my stuff). Here’s the deal on a namespace
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 4 10:18 AM
              This email may get too technical for some people, so you may want to ignore
              it (if you don�t already ignore my stuff).

              Here�s the deal on a namespace engine:

              In an XML Browser a namespace engine should handle the rendering
              (displaying) of XML of a specific namespace. The XML itself is the means of
              communicating with a namespace engine, and telling it what you would like to
              do. The problem is with the namespace engine to browser communication. The
              DOM2 interface handles some of the interface requirements, but nothing
              relating to how actually display the results. Microsoft�s binary behaviors
              allows for direct access to their HTMLPaint interface. This is the piece
              that I called a namespace engine API. It is this piece of code that a
              namespace engine developer would need to customize for each browser in the
              current world. It�s where the tire hits the pavement. To make matters
              worse, some behaviors are not graphical in nature (like SMIL) but affect
              other graphical namespaces (like SVG). If the SMIL namespace updates the
              SVG namespace directly, the SVG namespace must let the browser know to
              repaint. This is the one area that I have run into problem with IE 5.5.
              Element behaviors (behaviors thru script, not compiled) cannot contain their
              SMIL implementation (called HTML+TIME). SMIL updates the element behavior,
              but the element behavior doesn�t tell the browser it�s moved, therefore
              nothing happens.

              This is a really technical issue, and may not be appropriate for this group.
              If you want we can discuss this offline.

              Don XML


              ----Original Message Follows----
              From: Robin Berjon <robin@...>
              Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
              To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: Just yesterday I thought ...
              Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:34:35 +0200

              At 15:28 04/04/2001 +0000, don_xml@... wrote:
              >The problem with multiple namespace XML Browsers is
              >that the W3C didn't come up with a standard API for namespace engines
              >to interface with the browser.

              Don, would you care to explain what you mean by the above ? If the browser
              provides a DOM2 interface (including the Events, View, and StyleSheet
              modules) what keeps a namespace engine from interfacing with the browser ?

              -- robin b.
              "Many people would sooner die than think. In fact, they do." - Bertrand
              Russell


              _________________________________________________________________
              Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
            • Robin Berjon
              ... I see what you re getting at. A browser exposing a DOM2 interface allows you to access the Model, but not the View. I can understand why the W3 didn t go
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 4 10:34 AM
                At 13:18 04/04/2001 -0400, Don XML wrote:
                >This email may get too technical for some people, so you may want to ignore
                >it (if you don�t already ignore my stuff).

                :) I don't find it too technical (but if others disagree, please yell).

                >The problem is with the namespace engine to browser communication.
                >DOM2 interface handles some of the interface requirements, but nothing
                >relating to how actually display the results. Microsoft�s binary behaviors
                >allows for direct access to their HTMLPaint interface. This is the piece
                >that I called a namespace engine API.

                I see what you're getting at. A browser exposing a DOM2 interface allows
                you to access the Model, but not the View. I can understand why the W3
                didn't go there: it's likely to be highly implementation dependent.

                If you look into DOM2, you'll see a (tiny) module named Views. I believe
                that's where one ought to start to provide direct manipulation of the view.
                I doubt though that many DOMs feature that module.

                >To make matters
                >worse, some behaviors are not graphical in nature (like SMIL) but affect
                >other graphical namespaces (like SVG). If the SMIL namespace updates the
                >SVG namespace directly, the SVG namespace must let the browser know to
                >repaint.

                In theory, and again given a full-featured enough DOM2 implementation,
                various components interested in the display could (should?) register
                Events (see DOM2 Events), probably MutationEvents (or a derivation
                thereof), to know when to repaint. Of course, the world isn't perfect...

                _______________________________________________________________________
                Robin Berjon <robin@...> -- CTO
                k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com
                Design a system that even an idiot will be able to use, and only an idiot
                will want to use it.
              • Lance Dyas
                It seems list apropriate to me but I enjoy learning ;-) even if it is over my head. Format code and actual rendering tech are distinct but SVG is dependent on
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 4 10:43 AM
                  It seems list apropriate to me but I enjoy learning ;-) even if it is
                  over my head.
                  Format code and actual rendering tech are distinct but SVG is dependent
                  on being rendered.
                  Microsofts "Behaviors" seem like a disguise for plug-ins. SVG is not
                  just SVG graphics its
                  interconnected with the other technologies not something easily
                  done if they opt out of really implementing it.

                  I had only seen compiled behaviors... which effectively mean...I havent
                  reallly SEEN any
                  do you have a sample scripted one? related to SVG just to stay on
                  topic.

                  Don XML wrote:
                  >
                  > This email may get too technical for some people, so you may want to ignore
                  > it (if you don’t already ignore my stuff).
                  >
                  > Here’s the deal on a namespace engine:
                  >
                  > In an XML Browser a namespace engine should handle the rendering
                  > (displaying) of XML of a specific namespace. The XML itself is the means of
                  > communicating with a namespace engine, and telling it what you would like to
                  > do. The problem is with the namespace engine to browser communication. The
                  > DOM2 interface handles some of the interface requirements, but nothing
                  > relating to how actually display the results. Microsoft’s binary behaviors
                  > allows for direct access to their HTMLPaint interface. This is the piece
                  > that I called a namespace engine API. It is this piece of code that a
                  > namespace engine developer would need to customize for each browser in the
                  > current world. It’s where the tire hits the pavement. To make matters
                  > worse, some behaviors are not graphical in nature (like SMIL) but affect
                  > other graphical namespaces (like SVG). If the SMIL namespace updates the
                  > SVG namespace directly, the SVG namespace must let the browser know to
                  > repaint. This is the one area that I have run into problem with IE 5.5.
                  > Element behaviors (behaviors thru script, not compiled) cannot contain their
                  > SMIL implementation (called HTML+TIME). SMIL updates the element behavior,
                  > but the element behavior doesn’t tell the browser it’s moved, therefore
                  > nothing happens.
                  >
                  > This is a really technical issue, and may not be appropriate for this group.
                  > If you want we can discuss this offline.
                  >
                  > Don XML
                  >
                  > ----Original Message Follows----
                  > From: Robin Berjon <robin@...>
                  > Reply-To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                  > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: Just yesterday I thought ...
                  > Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:34:35 +0200
                  >
                  > At 15:28 04/04/2001 +0000, don_xml@... wrote:
                  > >The problem with multiple namespace XML Browsers is
                  > >that the W3C didn't come up with a standard API for namespace engines
                  > >to interface with the browser.
                  >
                  > Don, would you care to explain what you mean by the above ? If the browser
                  > provides a DOM2 interface (including the Events, View, and StyleSheet
                  > modules) what keeps a namespace engine from interfacing with the browser ?
                  >
                  > -- robin b.
                  > "Many people would sooner die than think. In fact, they do." - Bertrand
                  > Russell
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                  --
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                • Don XML
                  Lance, Peter, from Adobe, started an element behavior wrapper for the Adobe viewer. You can get it on the Yahoo Groups site:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 4 11:24 AM
                    Lance,

                    Peter, from Adobe, started an element behavior wrapper for the Adobe viewer.
                    You can get it on the Yahoo Groups site:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers, under the Files section. It's
                    called svg_ie55.zip. I've been slowly updating it, fixing bugs and adding
                    features. That version is under the Open Source SVG Element Behavior
                    folder. You need this element behavior to use any of my SVG based element
                    behaviors.

                    If you want a simpler version of a element behavior, join the
                    DHTML-Behaviors Yahoo Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DHTML-Behaviors
                    and download the Scoreboard example. We only have 17 members, and not a lot
                    of emails (all mine so far), but I haven't advertised the site yet.

                    Don XML


                    ----Original Message Follows----
                    I had only seen compiled behaviors... which effectively mean...I havent
                    reallly SEEN any
                    do you have a sample scripted one? related to SVG just to stay on
                    topic.


                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                  • David Nimmons
                    Please tell me I am wrong, but, it looks like behaviours is just another attempt to turn the web into something that can only be accessed through Windows. Or
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 4 12:48 PM
                      Please tell me I am wrong, but, it looks like behaviours is just another
                      attempt to turn the web into something that can only be accessed through
                      Windows. Or am I just overly cynical?




                      "Don XML"
                      <don_xml@hotm To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                      ail.com> cc:
                      Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: Just yesterday I thought ...
                      04/04/2001
                      01:24 PM
                      Please
                      respond to
                      svg-developer
                      s





                      Lance,

                      Peter, from Adobe, started an element behavior wrapper for the Adobe
                      viewer.
                      You can get it on the Yahoo Groups site:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers, under the Files section.
                      It's
                      called svg_ie55.zip. I've been slowly updating it, fixing bugs and adding
                      features. That version is under the Open Source SVG Element Behavior
                      folder. You need this element behavior to use any of my SVG based element
                      behaviors.

                      If you want a simpler version of a element behavior, join the
                      DHTML-Behaviors Yahoo Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DHTML-Behaviors
                      and download the Scoreboard example. We only have 17 members, and not a
                      lot
                      of emails (all mine so far), but I haven't advertised the site yet.

                      Don XML


                      ----Original Message Follows----
                      I had only seen compiled behaviors... which effectively mean...I havent
                      reallly SEEN any
                      do you have a sample scripted one? related to SVG just to stay on
                      topic.


                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com





                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • goessner@mecxpert.de
                      ... another ... through ... david, maybe .net attempts to turn the web in something like windows :) let s assume, we decided to develop an xml - hmm.. -
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 4 2:04 PM
                        > Please tell me I am wrong, but, it looks like behaviours is just
                        another
                        > attempt to turn the web into something that can only be accessed
                        through
                        > Windows. Or am I just overly cynical?

                        david, maybe .net attempts to turn the web in something like
                        windows :)

                        let's assume, we decided to develop an xml - hmm.. - browser.
                        the first problem we have to face .. xml is a meta language ..
                        xml has no elements defined .. we do not know what to render.

                        no problem so far, we know xhtml, svg, smil, mathml. so we build our
                        browser to render documents based on these languages (xml namespaces).
                        we just finished our product, when we get a request to please render
                        also the well known 'chemicalML' and the
                        upcoming 'FiniteElementMarkupLanguage'. Since we have no time left
                        and hear the 'FurnitureMarkupLanguage' knocking at our door, we
                        refuse to do any further ML implementations.

                        instead of dreaming of our universal xml browser, we decide now to
                        support 3rd party xml-rendering-components and we name these
                        * plugins
                        * rendering-engines
                        * behaviors
                        or so ..

                        now - don xml pointed it out - we have to define an API - an
                        application programming interface. since we want to be platform
                        independent, this seems to be no trivial task.

                        the dom is not so much a problem, but the component model - COM,
                        CORBA, .NET is what we have today .. and the API must not be
                        proprietary, so we hand it over to the w3c.

                        ..

                        exactly that did microsotf & netscape, as they submitted the
                        Behavioral Extensions to CSS to the www consortium ..
                        http://www.w3.org/TR/becss.html

                        ..

                        so we have to address the w3c to come up finally with a
                        standardized .. hmm - rendering component model.

                        my 2 pf

                        --
                        stefan
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