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Serving maps with svg

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  • asaleitong
    Hello! I want to develop a programe to serve maps of svg in the server side. In some cases ,it is called a webGIS . (GIS=Geographic Infomation System.) My
    Message 1 of 13 , May 31 8:10 PM
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      Hello!

      I want to develop a programe to serve maps of svg in the server side.
      In some cases ,it is called a webGIS . (GIS=Geographic Infomation
      System.)

      My idea is that the data with geography infomation is stored in the
      database server. An svg graphics is generated with a jsp programe.
      This can de done with the Batik project.

      And in the client side, the svg graphics is displayed with a applet .
      This also can be done with the Batik libary.And some spatial
      operation functions are provided.

      Do you have any opinion for this design?
      All reply will be appreciated.
    • Ronan Oger
      Hi Asaleitong, I ve been working on a similar project - gis system with serverside map storage and generation with simple clientside handling. You would
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 1, 2003
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        Hi Asaleitong,

        I've been working on a similar project - gis system with serverside map
        storage and generation with simple clientside handling.

        You would certainly be able to do this using a jsp program. I am not sure
        why you want to use an applet rather than a java program or one of the
        plugins available for the browsers.

        The only thing you might be careful with is the slowness of the batik
        solution. Serverside Batik is very slow.

        Here is the system I am working on:

        (to begin, you neet to click on 'fetch' and drag a rectangular area, then
        you can manipulate the individual sprites by selecting an action and
        clicking on one of their round control points)

        It's really just a proof of concept, but is coming along slowly.

        http://www,roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi

        The technology is perl using the SVG.pm module serverside, and some
        cgi-generated javascript clientside.

        Ronan





        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: asaleitong [mailto:asalei@...]
        >Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 5:11 AM
        >To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [svg-developers] Serving maps with svg
        >
        >
        >Hello!
        >
        >I want to develop a programe to serve maps of svg in the server side.
        >In some cases ,it is called a webGIS . (GIS=Geographic Infomation
        >System.)
        >
        >My idea is that the data with geography infomation is stored in the
        >database server. An svg graphics is generated with a jsp programe.
        >This can de done with the Batik project.
        >
        >And in the client side, the svg graphics is displayed with a applet .
        >This also can be done with the Batik libary.And some spatial
        >operation functions are provided.
        >
        >Do you have any opinion for this design?
        >All reply will be appreciated.
        >
        >
        >
        >-----
        >To unsubscribe send a message to:
        >svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >-or-
        >visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
        >my membership"
        >----
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • asaleitong
        Hi Ronan, thx for ur reply. My programe is also a proof of concept.So the speed won t be a big problem. I think there is two ways to manipulate the map at
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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          Hi Ronan,
          thx for ur reply.
          My programe is also a proof of concept.So the speed won't be a
          big problem.
          I think there is two ways to manipulate the map at client side .
          1 use a browser plugin,such as adobe's svgviewer,and javascript or
          the embedded ecmaScript to control the map and execute Gis
          operations,for example,drawing a contour map.
          2 use the batik viewer ,and use java programe to implement the
          functions.

          And in server side ,there are also two means:
          1 use batik svg Generator
          2 use sql server to return a xml query result,and together with a xsl
          file to generate the svg graphics.

          I don't know which is the better way.
          And what's ur opinion?

          And a bad news,I can't see you work at
          > http://www,roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi
          for I am a student in China ,I must use a proxy to visit the foreign
          site .Unfortunately,ur website is unreachable.

          I will mail u once I get a pace.

          asalei

          --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Ronan Oger" <ronan@r...>
          wrote:
          > Hi Asaleitong,
          >
          > I've been working on a similar project - gis system with serverside
          map
          > storage and generation with simple clientside handling.
          >
          > You would certainly be able to do this using a jsp program. I am
          not sure
          > why you want to use an applet rather than a java program or one of
          the
          > plugins available for the browsers.
          >
          > The only thing you might be careful with is the slowness of the
          batik
          > solution. Serverside Batik is very slow.
          >
          > Here is the system I am working on:
          >
          > (to begin, you neet to click on 'fetch' and drag a rectangular
          area, then
          > you can manipulate the individual sprites by selecting an action and
          > clicking on one of their round control points)
          >
          > It's really just a proof of concept, but is coming along slowly.
          >
          > http://www,roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi
          >
          > The technology is perl using the SVG.pm module serverside, and some
          > cgi-generated javascript clientside.
          >
          > Ronan
          >
        • neumannandreas
          Hi, I am doing this with Postgis (postgis.refractions.net) - an extension to the OS database PostgreSQL. I store both the OpenGIS geometry (which allows for
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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            Hi,

            I am doing this with Postgis (postgis.refractions.net) - an extension
            to the OS database PostgreSQL. I store both the OpenGIS geometry
            (which allows for spatial queries and simple analysis) and a separate
            column with a compressed/optimized SVG geometry, which is actually
            sent to the client. To keep the two columns in sync if you change the
            OpenGIS geometry, you can use triggers in the database.

            Once the application is loaded the user can zoom and pan using a
            reference map. All the map layout elements and GUI stays in the
            browser, but additional data is requested using the getURL()/parseXML
            mechanism. This a non-standard Adobe Extension, but meanwhile also
            works on Batik and the Corel Viewer.

            Unfortunately I can't post a link to my application, since it is
            inhouse and with licensed data, which I am not supposed to share. But
            to get an idea on the client-side functionality you can have a look at
            http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/tuerlersee/ - whith the difference
            that the SVG data is served by the postgis database. Maybe we will
            post some more info on that on carto.net, later on.

            Andreas
          • vasile@geo.unibuc.ro
            ... I think is just a type error. the correct address is http://www.roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi Regards, Vasile
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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              >> http://www,roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi
              >for I am a student in China ,I must use a proxy to visit the foreign
              >site .Unfortunately,ur website is unreachable.

              I think is just a type error. the correct address is

              http://www.roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi


              Regards,
              Vasile
            • ronan@roasp.com
              Hi Asalei, First of all, my apologies, I had a typo in the url. http://www.roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi Please see inline comments below in answer to
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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                Hi Asalei,

                First of all, my apologies, I had a typo in the url.

                http://www.roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi

                Please see inline comments below in answer to your questions

                > I think there is two ways to manipulate the map at client side .
                > 1 use a browser plugin,such as adobe's svgviewer,and javascript or
                > the embedded ecmaScript to control the map and execute Gis
                > operations,for example,drawing a contour map.
                > 2 use the batik viewer ,and use java programe to implement the
                > functions.

                Right.

                But also, for clientside. you can use anything Batik with ECMAScripting.

                > And in server side ,there are also two means:
                > 1 use batik svg Generator
                > 2 use sql server to return a xml query result,and together with a xsl
                > file to generate the svg graphics.
                >

                By sql server, I presume you mean 'any sql compliant server'. IE 'any
                database'.
                Any program can interface with any database and generate SVG.
                This is quite simple technologically.

                I would not particularly suggest using XSLT, although that opinion may change
                over time/exposure. But XSLT processors are too slow by my taste and
                insufficiently flexible (for example, try to use an xslt processor to merge
                database (RDBM)-generated svg with existing svg documents. I find this very
                hard to do and far easier to parse the SVG documents and embed the parts I want
                them within a <defs></defs> segment.
                I find it far too constrained for most of the mappings that I need to do, and
                it only works on the initial drawing.
                I have heard that Corel have done some excellent XSLT transforms work in their
                Smart Graphics server, but have not seen much quality xslt work that replaces
                dynamic server-driven graphics.

                My preference is to use serverside SVG generation with the business logic on
                the server, and clientside SVG rendering and simple manipulation (drag and drop
                can not be done server-side). I try to keep all state data serverside so that
                it can be shared between users.

                I use Perl to generate the SVG, although I am becoming increasingly impressed
                by php for its easy learning curve (and it is really just a simple version of
                perl in many ways).

                I stay away from Batik server-side because it is far too slow for my needs and
                much too cumbersome to use for prototyping by my yardstick.


                > And a bad news,I can't see you work at
                > > http://www,roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi
                > for I am a student in China ,I must use a proxy to visit the foreign
                > site .Unfortunately,ur website is unreachable.
                >
                > I will mail u once I get a pace.
                >
                > asalei
                >
                > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Ronan Oger" <ronan@r...>
                > wrote:
                > > Hi Asaleitong,
                > >
                > > I've been working on a similar project - gis system with serverside
                > map
                > > storage and generation with simple clientside handling.
                > >
                > > You would certainly be able to do this using a jsp program. I am
                > not sure
                > > why you want to use an applet rather than a java program or one of
                > the
                > > plugins available for the browsers.
                > >
                > > The only thing you might be careful with is the slowness of the
                > batik
                > > solution. Serverside Batik is very slow.
                > >
                > > Here is the system I am working on:
                > >
                > > (to begin, you neet to click on 'fetch' and drag a rectangular
                > area, then
                > > you can manipulate the individual sprites by selecting an action and
                > > clicking on one of their round control points)
                > >
                > > It's really just a proof of concept, but is coming along slowly.
                > >
                > > http://www.roitsystems.com/cgi-bin/gis/GISMax.cgi

                typo fixed above
                --Ronan

                > >
                > > The technology is perl using the SVG.pm module serverside, and some
                > > cgi-generated javascript clientside.
                > >
                > > Ronan
                > >
              • Andrew Coats
                If you have the option, using the PostGIS database, as Andreas does, is a very elegant solution. Some related links that will help you implement some GIS
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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                  If you have the option, using the PostGIS database, as Andreas does,
                  is a very elegant solution. Some related links that will help you
                  implement some GIS functionality (very Java centric).

                  Tools in Java for doing operations such intersection
                  http://www.vividsolutions.com/projects/jts.html

                  Tools in Java for just about everything GIS related including
                  projections. Well worth a lot before you do any development
                  yourself.
                  http://www.geotools.org/

                  Tools in C# that do spatial operations such as intersection,
                  projections, shapefile reader etc…….
                  http://sourceforge.net/projects/geotoolsnet

                  Website for Open GIS. WKB is great way to store your polygon
                  information in the database (as Andreas mentioned).
                  http://www.opengis.org/

                  Andrew Coats



                  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "neumannandreas"
                  <neumann@k...> wrote:
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > I am doing this with Postgis (postgis.refractions.net) - an
                  extension
                  > to the OS database PostgreSQL. I store both the OpenGIS geometry
                  > (which allows for spatial queries and simple analysis) and a
                  separate
                  > column with a compressed/optimized SVG geometry, which is actually
                  > sent to the client. To keep the two columns in sync if you change
                  the
                  > OpenGIS geometry, you can use triggers in the database.
                  >
                  > Once the application is loaded the user can zoom and pan using a
                  > reference map. All the map layout elements and GUI stays in the
                  > browser, but additional data is requested using the getURL
                  ()/parseXML
                  > mechanism. This a non-standard Adobe Extension, but meanwhile also
                  > works on Batik and the Corel Viewer.
                  >
                  > Unfortunately I can't post a link to my application, since it is
                  > inhouse and with licensed data, which I am not supposed to share.
                  But
                  > to get an idea on the client-side functionality you can have a
                  look at
                  > http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/tuerlersee/ - whith the difference
                  > that the SVG data is served by the postgis database. Maybe we will
                  > post some more info on that on carto.net, later on.
                  >
                  > Andreas
                • Vladimir Belomestnov
                  Hey, everyone, cool thread! I am working on GIS solutions for five years now and tried it all ... First thing implemented was a truckload of bitmaps generated
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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                    Hey, everyone, cool thread!

                    I am working on GIS solutions for five years now and tried it all
                    :-)))

                    First thing implemented was a truckload of bitmaps generated from
                    MapInfo and appropriate HTML image maps that were highliting the
                    active elements. The thing of beauty - fast, cheap, still works for
                    some government agency and they don't dream of anything better!

                    The development project used similar bitmaps for the underlying
                    cosmetic layers and VML for active features and thematic maps.
                    MSAccess for the backend - served about 20 simultaneous web
                    connections to IIS in a blink. Very simple in the client-side
                    scripting.

                    Then we got serious. MSSQL for the backend - I used SQLXML extension
                    to generate pure SVG and serve it. So far this was the simpliest and
                    the easiest to manage solution at the server side. Performance was
                    good too. If someone is not aware of SQLXML - give it a try - it's
                    hillarious as a concept! Platform dependance is a defenite drawback
                    though.

                    In the end to solve our platform independence requirements we had to
                    switch to Java. We use Turbine-Torque-Velocity-XSLT framework and the
                    backend is pluggable (Oracle and MSSQL so far).

                    Initially I was goiing to use Batik to generate SVG. And then I
                    realized that it is not required. All I do now is filling up the
                    Velocity template which produces a pefect SVG of any complexity. In
                    the next release we are switching from Velocity to JSP. I use Batik
                    to render bitmaps from parametrically defined objects built up using
                    AWT (not really useful for GIS but perfect for engineering graphics).
                    Thus used Batik is fast and light on resources.

                    Client-side scripting is a real pain. Right now I am bound to IE5.5+
                    but would love to switch to ECMA (ASV3 in particular). Two problems
                    there: ECMA does not interact with browser's scripting engine (as far
                    as I know :) and I could not find production-quality libraries to
                    generate standard widgets in SVG (SVGUI is great but not there yet
                    :-((((). And the comlexity of interaction that I have to provide
                    restrains me from switching to anything else (over 2000 lines of JS
                    to rewrite...)

                    Performance. My initial designs were based on a comlete relational
                    hierarcy starting from presentation level then going through layers-
                    features (a separate table for each kind of primitive and
                    corresponding attributes) and ending up with nodes. It was good for
                    SQLXML but importing the GIS data in such structure and especially
                    binding it to business data is unnecessarily complex. Also with
                    Tomcat as application server the recursive tree scanning (for spatial
                    queries) is sensibly expensive. Now I am on the route to simplify the
                    data structure and query mechanism (e.g. instead of querying the
                    database as many times as many layers I have getting it all in one
                    shot and sorting layers out in the template engine - Velocity or
                    JSP). The only doubt is whether I have to put node coordinates in
                    raw format as a column in features table. This will improve
                    performance up to 20% in my test environment (according to the
                    profiler estimates) but will complicate GIS data synch with sources.
                    I will leave this as the last resource.

                    I hope somebody will find this review useful ;-))))
                  • Randy George
                    Hi Very interesting. I ll throw in my opinion. I agree with Ronan that Batik is powerful but overkill for SVG generation and/or filtering for many
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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                      Hi

                      Very interesting. I'll throw in my opinion.

                      I agree with Ronan that Batik is powerful but overkill for SVG generation
                      and/or filtering for many applications. Batik though allows very powerful
                      client side tool development, a browser for very vertical markets.

                      I think the most elegant and powerful approach is Andreas's GeoSpatial
                      database on the backend. It is interesting to note he advocates a parallel
                      SVG column instead of generating SVG on the fly. I assume this is for
                      performance but complicates synch life.

                      Java on the server side would appear to be the most powerful and flexible
                      but the nice thing about SVG is that it can be generated easily by whatever
                      tools you are familiar with.

                      The lack of SVG GUI widgets XForms etc makes hybrid interfaces (HTML
                      iframes with SVG src's) more practical for the present. But I assume this
                      will change rapidly. There is a lot of stifled creativity that could be
                      unleashed with SVG based forms and widgets.

                      SQLXML - Hopefully XMLQuery will provide a more portable approach? But in
                      the meantime JDBC is very simple and portable. XML databases seem to have
                      become victims of troubled economies.

                      Further note: SVG with JAI makes for very interesting hybrid GIS systems.
                      TIFF imagery on the server with png/jpg to the browser which allows
                      Satellite imagery to coexist in GIS web applications very simply.

                      Randy

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Vladimir Belomestnov [mailto:izobretatel@...]
                      Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:14 AM
                      To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Serving maps with svg


                      Hey, everyone, cool thread!

                      I am working on GIS solutions for five years now and tried it all
                      :-)))

                      First thing implemented was a truckload of bitmaps generated from
                      MapInfo and appropriate HTML image maps that were highliting the
                      active elements. The thing of beauty - fast, cheap, still works for
                      some government agency and they don't dream of anything better!

                      The development project used similar bitmaps for the underlying
                      cosmetic layers and VML for active features and thematic maps.
                      MSAccess for the backend - served about 20 simultaneous web
                      connections to IIS in a blink. Very simple in the client-side
                      scripting.

                      Then we got serious. MSSQL for the backend - I used SQLXML extension
                      to generate pure SVG and serve it. So far this was the simpliest and
                      the easiest to manage solution at the server side. Performance was
                      good too. If someone is not aware of SQLXML - give it a try - it's
                      hillarious as a concept! Platform dependance is a defenite drawback
                      though.

                      In the end to solve our platform independence requirements we had to
                      switch to Java. We use Turbine-Torque-Velocity-XSLT framework and the
                      backend is pluggable (Oracle and MSSQL so far).

                      Initially I was goiing to use Batik to generate SVG. And then I
                      realized that it is not required. All I do now is filling up the
                      Velocity template which produces a pefect SVG of any complexity. In
                      the next release we are switching from Velocity to JSP. I use Batik
                      to render bitmaps from parametrically defined objects built up using
                      AWT (not really useful for GIS but perfect for engineering graphics).
                      Thus used Batik is fast and light on resources.

                      Client-side scripting is a real pain. Right now I am bound to IE5.5+
                      but would love to switch to ECMA (ASV3 in particular). Two problems
                      there: ECMA does not interact with browser's scripting engine (as far
                      as I know :) and I could not find production-quality libraries to
                      generate standard widgets in SVG (SVGUI is great but not there yet
                      :-((((). And the comlexity of interaction that I have to provide
                      restrains me from switching to anything else (over 2000 lines of JS
                      to rewrite...)

                      Performance. My initial designs were based on a comlete relational
                      hierarcy starting from presentation level then going through layers-
                      features (a separate table for each kind of primitive and
                      corresponding attributes) and ending up with nodes. It was good for
                      SQLXML but importing the GIS data in such structure and especially
                      binding it to business data is unnecessarily complex. Also with
                      Tomcat as application server the recursive tree scanning (for spatial
                      queries) is sensibly expensive. Now I am on the route to simplify the
                      data structure and query mechanism (e.g. instead of querying the
                      database as many times as many layers I have getting it all in one
                      shot and sorting layers out in the template engine - Velocity or
                      JSP). The only doubt is whether I have to put node coordinates in
                      raw format as a column in features table. This will improve
                      performance up to 20% in my test environment (according to the
                      profiler estimates) but will complicate GIS data synch with sources.
                      I will leave this as the last resource.

                      I hope somebody will find this review useful ;-))))



                      -----
                      To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      -or-
                      visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my
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                    • neumannandreas
                      ... GeoSpatial ... parallel ... for ... I just chose this approach for my application, yes for performance reasons. It might not be elegant in other
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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                        > I think the most elegant and powerful approach is Andreas's
                        GeoSpatial
                        > database on the backend. It is interesting to note he advocates a
                        parallel
                        > SVG column instead of generating SVG on the fly. I assume this is
                        for
                        > performance but complicates synch life.

                        I just chose this approach for my application, yes for performance
                        reasons. It might not be elegant in other situations. You can either
                        store plain SVG coordinates (using relative coordinates and no
                        white-spaces) in a separate database column or gzip the svg pathes
                        already and send binary data. Most modern databases support blobs. I
                        store all my image tiles (pngs and jpegs) and partially the svg
                        geometry in blobs. I don't know whether performance is better with
                        blobs in a database or plain files for image tiles.

                        Regarding keeping geometry in synch:
                        PostgreSQL (and I assume other databases) allow to write extensions in
                        many languages (C, Perl, PLPGSQL, etc.) - one of these extensions
                        might be a translation function that converts OpenGIS geometry
                        datatypes (Multipolygons, Multilinestrings, etc.) automatically to SVG
                        geometry. A database trigger can initiate the conversion function each
                        time a database record had a change in the OpenGIS geometry.

                        In my case my apps are more or less readonly. Unfortunately I don't
                        have live links from PostGIS to our GIS system (which is currently
                        ARC/Info). I heard that this is possible with GRASS. So, in my current
                        situation I have pretty static geometry and can load ESRI shapefiles
                        from time to time. PostGIS comes with a Shapefile loader.

                        All the best,
                        Andreas
                      • Klaus Foerster
                        ... if you re interested - i ve done one of these: http://geo4.uibk.ac.at/~klaus/svg/postgis/postgis_inout_assvg.c it let s you query your postgis geometry and
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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                          neumannandreas wrote:
                          > PostgreSQL (and I assume other databases) allow to write extensions in
                          > many languages (C, Perl, PLPGSQL, etc.) - one of these extensions
                          > might be a translation function that converts OpenGIS geometry
                          > datatypes (Multipolygons, Multilinestrings, etc.) automatically to SVG
                          > geometry.

                          if you're interested - i've done one of these:
                          http://geo4.uibk.ac.at/~klaus/svg/postgis/postgis_inout_assvg.c

                          it let's you query your postgis geometry and deliver AsSvg(the_geom)
                          instead of AsText(the_geom). for paths and polygons it returns the d
                          attribute, for points you get circle's cx="" cy="" - well, not that
                          elegant but one posibility. a little more information on this implementation
                          can be found at http://geo4.uibk.ac.at/~klaus/svg/postgis/

                          hope this helps

                          klaus foerster

                          --
                          O-.
                          /_ )
                          | (U
                          klaus* /|
                          / /
                          ~ ~
                        • Vladimir Belomestnov
                          * svg has a y-down coordinate system so y-coords have to be * multiplied by -1 It was one of my mistakes... Now I use the view box negated by Y and put
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jun 2, 2003
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                            * svg has a y-down coordinate system so y-coords have to be
                            * multiplied by -1

                            It was one of my mistakes... Now I use the view box negated by Y and
                            put geometry in the group with transform="scale(1,-1)". This way the
                            original Y coordinates are preserved all the way through. If one
                            wants to put text as a GIS feature in such setup - it will be
                            vertically mirrored. To solve that I convert TTF fonts to SVG, add
                            transform="scale(1,-1)" to each glyph and it works just fine! May be
                            not the most elegant solution but sure the cheapest :-)))
                          • Gordon Bowman
                            Hi, If you are not already familiar with the new Corel Smart Graphics Studio (http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jun 4, 2003
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                              Hi,

                              If you are not already familiar with the new Corel Smart
                              Graphics Studio (http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?
                              pagename=Corel/Products/productInfo&id=1042152819585), you may wish
                              to check it out. As well as
                              providing an IDE for creating data-driven graphics, we've designed a
                              markup language we call dSVG (Dynamic SVG), which features a full
                              suite of UI controls whose appearance is "completely" customizable,
                              as well as behaviours (including posting for forms), constraints and
                              expressions. The result is that you can create full-blown,
                              interactive, data-driven, SVG-based web applications with little or
                              no need for scripting. We hope that dSVG will one day be an endorsed
                              standard, but for now the dSVG markup is namespaced and implemented
                              with script so that it conforms to the existing SVG standard and can
                              work on any browser. There are some demos available at
                              http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?
                              pagename=Corel/Products/resources&id=1042152819585, which show it in
                              action.

                              Gordon Bowman
                              Corel Corporation


                              > The lack of SVG GUI widgets XForms etc makes hybrid
                              interfaces (HTML
                              > iframes with SVG src's) more practical for the present. But I
                              assume this
                              > will change rapidly. There is a lot of stifled creativity that
                              could be
                              > unleashed with SVG based forms and widgets.
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