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Macromedia promises better Web apps

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  • smilingsara30
    Article from today s New York Times: Macromedia promises better Web apps April 29, 2002 David Becker, CNET News.com Macromedia will launch the next stage of an
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002
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      Article from today's New York Times:
      Macromedia promises better Web apps

      April 29, 2002

      David Becker, CNET News.com


      Macromedia will launch the next stage of an ambitious
      product upgrade cycle Monday with new Web development and
      server tools that focus on better delivery of Web
      applications.

      The new products include Dreamweaver MX, an updated version
      of Macromedia's market-leading Web design tools used by
      more than 80 percent of professional Web designers;
      ColdFusion MX, a set of server scripting tools for creating
      Web applications; and Fireworks MX for creating Web
      graphics. The generation of products is also combined in
      Studio MX, a suite of developer tools that includes the
      newly released Flash MX.

      Most of the new products are meant to improve the way Web
      applications are created and presented, an effort vital to
      the continued growth of the Web, according to Kevin Lynch,
      chief software architect for Macromedia. By integrating Web
      design and development tools with ColdFusion server tools
      that Macromedia acquired from Allaire, Macromedia can help
      developers offer more useful Web services and present them
      in a smoother way.

      As an example, Lynch showed an e-commerce transaction page
      designed with Flash MX and other Macromedia tools. When a
      person changes the quantity of an item in the order, the
      page automatically updates the total, using event-driven
      applications embedded in the page and Flash instructions
      that allow the person's PC to do the math.

      The traditional way of designing a transaction page would
      require people to click on an "update order" button, wait
      for a server to recalculate the total and wait some more
      for the screen to refresh, a cumbersome process for
      presenting such basic information.

      "We think that's a bad model for Web applications," Lynch
      said. "It reflects the way the Web is built; it's built to
      deliver documents, not services.

      "I think the delivery of applications on the Internet has
      been defined by the infrastructure, and the end-user
      experience has been kind of secondary. We think that needs
      to change."

      Dreamweaver: Too daunting?
      Joseph Lowery, a Web developer in New York and author of
      the "Dreamweaver Bible" series of books, said the focus on
      Web applications fits with the general trend in Web
      development. But it means current Dreamweaver customers who
      aren't involved in applications development may feel little
      need to upgrade.

      "All those developers of static Web pages are now going to
      have the ability to create applications and services
      staring them in the face," he said. "I think that's going
      to be a little daunting."

      As with other Macromedia products, the new Dreamweaver will
      also require developers to learn a new user interface. But
      Lowery said Dreamweaver MX makes a big step in the right
      direction.

      "The learning-curve issue, I think, is Macromedia's biggest
      challenge, especially for Dreamweaver," he said. "But
      (Dreamweaver MX) is a significant advance, as far as
      usability. Everything is pretty much where you expect."

      Rikki Kirzner, an analyst with research firm IDC, said the
      new MX packages show a comprehensive approach to Web site
      design, from creating graphics elements to defining server
      processes. The integrated approach, she said, is the result
      of Macromedia taking the time to fully digest the Allaire
      acquisition, a financially risky approach that meant
      Macromedia going through 2001 with no major product
      introductions.

      "You've got to give them credit," Kirzner said. "They spent
      all last year working on the Allaire products, instead of
      just bolting on the new stuff to generate new sales. The
      result of that effort is far superior to what you'd get
      just rushing something to market.

      "These products really work together in an elegant way. For
      the people doing Web design and development, this is like
      going from a Honda Civic up to a Lexus. It really allows
      people to expand beyond the limited version of Web
      applications you see now."

      Getting flashy
      Macromedia critics have expressed concerns about a single
      company having so much control over how the Web works. But
      Steve Frankel, a software analyst for investment bank Adams
      Harkness & Hill, said the real obstacle for corporate
      customers is likely to be the novelty of Macromedia's push
      for Flash-centric Web pages. Among the implications are the
      PCs would go from being dumb "thin clients" for Web data,
      where central servers have to do all the processing work,
      to smart terminals that can use the Flash player to handle
      certain tasks.

      "Anytime you talk about a major realignment of the way you
      do things, there are going to be reservations," Frankel
      said. "I think this will happen in baby steps. I don't
      expect the Web is going to be retooled overnight to a
      fat-client model."

      The tough overall economic climate, especially for
      Web-based businesses, will also make it tough for
      Macromedia to convince customers to upgrade, Frankel said.
      But the company can make strong arguments that the new
      products will pay for themselves in cost savings, he said.

      Pre-built templates and a uniform user-interface will mean
      Web developers can churn out pages more quickly. E-commerce
      pages that are easier to navigate should help in customer
      retention. And by not forcing browsers to redraw an entire
      page just to present one new bit of information,
      Flash-centered pages save bandwidth and associated costs.

      Lynch points to the new Flash-based stock quote system used
      by online broker E*Trade. By using a Flash-based
      application, the broker can deliver quotes with less than
      2KB of data, as opposed to the old HTML format that
      required a 100KB download and up to 20 seconds of waiting
      for each quote.

      "It costs less, and it's actually a better experience for
      the user," Lynch said. "That's the advantage of having a
      rich client...that can take advantage of local processing
      power...We think we've really lowered the barriers to
      creating applications that work well."

      Frankel said the bandwidth argument is likely to be
      Macromedia's biggest asset as it tries to convince
      cash-strapped customers to spend money on new technology.

      "That to me is probably the argument that will resonate
      most with the market now," he said. "There's a powerful
      argument there for direct cost savings as far as developers
      being able to finish their work more quickly and fewer
      pages being served...And there's the hope that a better
      user experience should mean fewer abandoned shopping
      carts."

      New and improved
      The new Dreamweaver includes improvements in a number of
      areas that users of previous versions have complained
      about. Lowery said major enhancements include accessibility
      compliance tool checks that help designers ensure that Web
      pages will work with screen readers and other tools for
      disabled users, better support for new formats such as
      XHTML and cascading style sheets, and code-writing
      shortcuts that dramatically speed up development work.

      "It's always been one of Macromedia's strengths that they
      really pay attention to what people are asking for, and
      they really do their homework," Lowery said. "You can
      really see that in this upgrade."

      Dreamweaver MX is expected to ship in May for $399, or $199
      for those upgrading from a previous versions of Dreamweaver
      or ColdFusion Studio. A preview version is available for
      download now from Macromedia.

      The other new products are as follows:

      . ColdFusion MX is
      the new version of the server software Macromedia acquired
      from Alliare. Besides expanded tools for working in XML,
      the lingua franca of Web services, the new version supports
      both of the competing standards for delivering Web
      services: Microsoft's .Net and Sun Microsystems' Java 2
      Enterprise Edition.

      "I think that's a very smart move for Macromedia," Frankel
      said. "Customers don't want to be forced down one
      publishing path. It makes sense for them to be agnostic."

      ColdFusion MX Server Professional Edition, the basic
      package of application development tools, is set to ship in
      June priced at $799 per server, or $549 for those upgrading
      from an earlier version. ColdFusion Enterprise Edition, for
      large-scale Web sites, will ship at the same time priced at
      $4,999 per server, or $2,499 for the upgrade version. A
      preview version is available for download now.

      IBM is also set to announce Monday that it will support
      ColdFusion MX in its WebSphere family of products for
      creating and delivering Web services. IBM will resell
      ColdFusion MX to WebSphere clients, and J2EE applications
      written in ColdFusion MX will be able to run on WebSphere
      servers.

      . Fireworks MX is Macromedia's set of tools for creating
      interactive graphics, such as pop-up menus and buttons. The
      new version includes enhanced tools for exporting graphics
      to other applications and expanded XML support.

      The software is expected to ship in May priced at $299, or
      $149 for those upgrading from a previous version. A preview
      version can be downloaded now.

      . Studio MX combines the new versions of Dreamweaver,
      Flash, Fireworks, the FreeHand 10 illustration tool and a
      developer version of ColdFusion MX. Besides being priced
      considerably lower than buying individual versions of each
      program, the suite includes an integrated interface that
      makes it easier to switch from one application to another.

      Studio MX will ship in May at $799 for the full version,
      $599 for those upgrading from a single Macromedia product
      or $399 for those upgrading from two products.
    • Chris Lilley
      On Monday, April 29, 2002, 8:41:21 PM, smilingsara30 wrote: s Article from today s New York Times: s Macromedia promises better Web apps An analysis of same:
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 29, 2002
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        On Monday, April 29, 2002, 8:41:21 PM, smilingsara30 wrote:

        s> Article from today's New York Times:
        s> Macromedia promises better Web apps

        An analysis of same:

        http://maxify.com/design/flash-20020311.html

        --
        Chris mailto:chris@...
      • AndrewWatt2001@aol.com
        In a message dated 29/04/02 19:43:14 GMT Daylight Time, skubik@purdue.edu ... Sara, I couldn t help noticing that in its new product names Macromedia pays
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 30, 2002
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          In a message dated 29/04/02 19:43:14 GMT Daylight Time, skubik@...
          writes:


          > a suite of developer tools that includes the
          > newly released Flash MX.

          Sara,

          I couldn't help noticing that in its new product names Macromedia pays
          indirect respect to XML. Unfortunately what it did have was the wrong way
          round and it was only two thirds complete.

          Isn't it funny how coincidences pervade life? :)

          Andrew Watt


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jdowdell@macromedia.com
          ... ... and last month s specific and obvious rebuttal of same: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/jd005.html (Seriously, Chris, this week s
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 30, 2002
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            At 5:23 PM 4/29/2, Chris Lilley wrote:
            >On Monday, April 29, 2002, 8:41:21 PM, smilingsara30 wrote:
            > > Article from today's New York Times:
            > > Macromedia promises better Web apps
            >
            > An analysis of same:
            > http://maxify.com/design/flash-20020311.html

            ... and last month's specific and obvious rebuttal of same:
            http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/jd005.html


            (Seriously, Chris, this week's announcements should show anyone how
            ridiculous last month's "mm wants swf to kill htm" strawmen were... ya
            gotta find some higher-quality rants to link to, matey! ;-)

            jd




            John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco
            (Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!)
            Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
            Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/
            Technical daily diary: http://jdmx.blogspot.com/
          • Chris Lilley
            On Wednesday, May 1, 2002, 2:41:46 AM, jdowdell wrote: ... jmc ... and last month s specific and obvious rebuttal of same: jmc
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 30, 2002
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              On Wednesday, May 1, 2002, 2:41:46 AM, jdowdell wrote:

              jmc> At 5:23 PM 4/29/2, Chris Lilley wrote:
              >>On Monday, April 29, 2002, 8:41:21 PM, smilingsara30 wrote:
              >> > Article from today's New York Times:
              >> > Macromedia promises better Web apps
              >>
              >> An analysis of same:
              >> http://maxify.com/design/flash-20020311.html

              jmc> ... and last month's specific and obvious rebuttal of same:
              jmc> http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/jd005.html

              Thanks for the link, John. I didn't see any obvious rebuttal of the
              points about inability to bookmark and so on, however.

              jmc> (Seriously, Chris, this week's announcements should show anyone how
              jmc> ridiculous last month's "mm wants swf to kill htm" strawmen were...

              Well, John, its not really a strawman is it? A strawman is a made-up
              target - something to fight against that isn't really there. So for
              example is someone makes up something and pretends that macromedia
              said it or intends it, that would be a strawman.

              Last I looked, Kevin Lynch worked for Macromedia. So when he says that
              a stock quote application in Flash MX is better than HTML because, and
              I quote:

              "By using a Flash-based application, the broker can deliver quotes
              with less than 2KB of data, as opposed to the old HTML format that
              required a 100KB download and up to 20 seconds of waiting for each
              quote "
              http://news.com.com/2100-1040-893705.html?type=pt

              then I guess he is speaking for Macromedia? That sounds so wonderful,
              a 98% reduction in download size just for a stock quote. Makes you
              wonder why anyone used the "old HTML format" in the past. Its just
              that, well, a stock quote is so simple and easy and frankly, anyone
              that takes more than 10k or HTML or 2k of SVG to return a stock quote
              really ought not to give up their day job, you know?

              And really, people stopped doing round-trips to the the server for
              basic interactivity like image maps and form field validation four or
              five years ago. Comparing Flash MX with how people used to make web
              pages five years ago is, well, a bit of a strawman wouldn't you say?

              So its possible the "old HTML format" is being a little misrepresented
              here. And I guess the Flash MX web service still has to make at least
              two trips to the server - one to fetch the form, one to actually get
              the requested quote once the user makes their selection.

              I totally agree with the other points Kevin was making, by the way.

              Thin, graphically rich clients, client-side form validation,
              attractive user interfaces, responsive service - these are indeed
              desirable qualities, whether one uses existing technology like HTML
              and JavaScript, newer open standards like SVG and XForms or
              proprietary ones like Flash MX, the goals are the same at that level.

              My preference is for an open solution that does not rely on a single
              vendor; a solution that has had wide review for accessibility and
              internationalization, and fits into an overall framework of Web
              architecture. But I appreciate that others may want different things.

              jmc> ya gotta find some higher-quality rants to link to, matey! ;-)

              Well, if you could briefly explain how someone would bookmark a page
              in the FlashMX world, or send a URL to a friend, or how anyone might
              find Flash MX content (since its binary and the license to *read* as
              opposed to *write* flash formats was rather restrictive last I looked,
              so what are search engines to do?) then I would be more disposed to
              regard that site as "a poor quality rant" rather than "a reasonable
              critique"...


              --
              Chris mailto:chris@...
            • ronan@roasp.com
              (If this goes out then roasp.com is not yet down) This snippet particularily made me smile. I deliver stock quotes (streaming, live, etc, and all the bells and
              Message 6 of 17 , May 1 1:46 AM
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                (If this goes out then roasp.com is not yet down)

                This snippet particularily made me smile.

                I deliver stock quotes (streaming, live, etc, and all the bells and
                whistles, just for fun, too - well, if you cal call unpaid work fun :)) )

                I've still not seen anything in Flash 5 or 6 that delivers quotes like
                fxconsole does. And That's the product of 1 guy for a couple of days. Then
                again, fxconsole has no dancing flames or wavy flags, which is what flash is
                so good at...

                And my stock qotes engine can deliver the quotes for 50-500 bytes -
                depending on the additional info you want. So if I make the same comparison
                as Kevin Lynch does, what kind of a strawman technology can't deliver
                streaming stock quotes at under 1K??? Clearly it's foolish to PAY for
                something that's less than 1/2 as good as the free alternative?

                Now, all that said, it does not take a great deal of data to bring a stock
                quote to a page. This Kevin Lynch certainly has an inflated opinion of the
                relevance of the delivery format...
                I mean - 100K? for HTML??? 5K, maybe. 2k certainly.

                <html>
                <body><p>IBM</p><p>50.2</p></body>
                </html>

                Here's a stock quote displayer. Doesnt seem that big to me...

                But a 100k stock application... Now that would be bloat ware. Sounds like he
                is actually attacking applets rather than HTML. Poor man can't tell
                technologies apart. No wonder he's on the Wrong Team.

                Just my 2rappens worths (rappen == Cent in German-speaking Switzerland ,for
                those of you going to SVG:Open)

                Ronan



                ?Last I looked, Kevin Lynch worked for Macromedia. So when he says that
                ?a stock quote application in Flash MX is better than HTML because, and
                ?I quote:
                ?
                ? "By using a Flash-based application, the broker can deliver quotes
                ? with less than 2KB of data, as opposed to the old HTML format that
                ? required a 100KB download and up to 20 seconds of waiting for each
                ? quote "
                ? http://news.com.com/2100-1040-893705.html?type=pt
                ?
                ?then I guess he is speaking for Macromedia? That sounds so wonderful,
                ?a 98% reduction in download size just for a stock quote. Makes you
                ?wonder why anyone used the "old HTML format" in the past. Its just
              • jdowdell@macromedia.com
                Hi Chris, that type of post reminds me of throwing spaghetti at the wall, trying to see what sticks before moving to another topic. Re-runs get boring. Recap:
                Message 7 of 17 , May 1 2:49 PM
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                  Hi Chris, that type of post reminds me of throwing spaghetti at the wall,
                  trying to see what sticks before moving to another topic. Re-runs get
                  boring.

                  Recap: HTML and SWF are indeed both useful formats... browsers don't always
                  communicate with their plugins, although you can bookmark a scene within a
                  SWF if the browser permits... it's useful to separate data from
                  presentation, which is why SWF can offer efficiencies with live requests...
                  search engines vary, but Atomz pulls text in SWF and Google (which relies
                  on links!) does offer "filetype:swf" arguments... much more in the usual
                  places.

                  Theme: Do stuff which you and others find rewarding. If you invest your
                  time trying to knock others down, then that leaves you less time to build
                  other things up.



                  At 1:46 AM 5/1/2, <ronan@...> wrote:
                  > Here's a stock quote displayer. Doesnt seem that big to me...
                  > <html>
                  > <body><p>IBM</p><p>50.2</p></body>
                  > </html>

                  Go look at the Etrade implementation you're objecting to.

                  A visitor can specify a stock and get current info displayed in their page,
                  without disturbing the existing page.

                  Theme: Do stuff which you and others find rewarding. If you invest your
                  time trying to knock others down, then that leaves you less time to build
                  other things up.


                  jd





                  John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco
                  (Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!)
                  Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
                  Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/
                  Technical daily diary: http://jdmx.blogspot.com/
                • ronan@roasp.com
                  ?Go look at the Etrade implementation you re objecting to. Huh? Please explain. My dull mind does not seem to follow your thread. What am I objecting to,
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 1 3:20 PM
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                    ?Go look at the Etrade implementation you're objecting to.

                    Huh? Please explain. My dull mind does not seem to follow your thread.

                    What am I objecting to, exactly?

                    PS I like your new theme. Are you going to apply it to everyone evenly? ;)

                    ?At 1:46 AM 5/1/2, <ronan@...> wrote:
                    ?> Here's a stock quote displayer. Doesnt seem that big to me...
                    ?> <html>
                    ?> <body><p>IBM</p><p>50.2</p></body>
                    ?> </html>
                    ?
                    ?Go look at the Etrade implementation you're objecting to.
                    ?
                    ?A visitor can specify a stock and get current info displayed in their page,
                    ?without disturbing the existing page.
                    ?
                    ?Theme: Do stuff which you and others find rewarding. If you invest your
                    ?time trying to knock others down, then that leaves you less time to build
                    ?other things up.
                    ?
                    ?
                    ?jd
                    ?
                    ?
                    ?
                    ?
                    ?
                    ?John Dowdell, Macromedia Developer Support, San Francisco
                    ?(Best to reply on-list, to avoid my mighty spam filters!)
                    ?Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/
                    ?Column: http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/
                    ?Technical daily diary: http://jdmx.blogspot.com/
                    ?
                    ?
                    ?
                    ?
                    ?-----
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                    ?visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit
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                    ?
                  • Jim Ley
                    ... wall, ... always ... a ... Can you show us a browser that does - or the mechanism in which I could functionality to my browser?
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 1 4:06 PM
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                      <jdowdell@...>
                      > Hi Chris, that type of post reminds me of throwing spaghetti at the
                      wall,
                      > trying to see what sticks before moving to another topic. Re-runs get
                      > boring.
                      >
                      > Recap: HTML and SWF are indeed both useful formats... browsers don't
                      always
                      > communicate with their plugins, although you can bookmark a scene within
                      a
                      > SWF if the browser permits...

                      Can you show us a browser that does - or the mechanism in which I could
                      functionality to my browser? I use the Win32 ActiveX. - A fragment
                      identifier for flash would solve the issue...

                      > it's useful to separate data from
                      > presentation, which is why SWF can offer efficiencies with live
                      requests...

                      As can plain old javascript, or even straight HTML 4.0 with appropriate
                      use of iframe/object elements.

                      > search engines vary, but Atomz pulls text in SWF and Google (which
                      relies
                      > on links!) does offer "filetype:swf" arguments... much more in the usual
                      > places.

                      Google ranks by links, it doesn't rely on them, it's been ACCEPTing swf
                      for a long time, and does look for content, unlike PPT, PDF, XLS though it
                      still doesn't offer it in a normal search most likely because it can't
                      provide an "HTML view" like it can of the others.

                      > Go look at the Etrade implementation you're objecting to.
                      >
                      > A visitor can specify a stock and get current info displayed in their
                      page,
                      > without disturbing the existing page.

                      Yes... There's nothing either new, or specific to flash in this, this has
                      been possible in browsers for at least 4 years (actually NN3 you could
                      even do server push of javascript to update an input element so we do push
                      it back further, but that's perhaps too ugly to be directly comparable),
                      and has been regularly seen. It can also be achieved accessibily with
                      graceful fallback so the content was still available to all UA's.

                      I didn't notice anyone objecting just suggesting that the annoucement was
                      full of quite usual technical puffery that whilst true and a good solution
                      was nothing unique and still suffers the huge accessibility problems of
                      flash - something which is close to being addressed for some users of AT's
                      but it's a long way behind HTML still.

                      Jim.
                    • Chris Lilley
                      On Wednesday, May 1, 2002, 11:49:54 PM, jdowdell wrote: jmc Hi Chris, that type of post reminds me of throwing spaghetti at the wall, jmc trying to see what
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 1 6:03 PM
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                        On Wednesday, May 1, 2002, 11:49:54 PM, jdowdell wrote:

                        jmc> Hi Chris, that type of post reminds me of throwing spaghetti at the wall,
                        jmc> trying to see what sticks before moving to another topic.

                        Kind of like posting faint praise on SVG book reviews, that sort of thing?

                        jmc> Re-runs get boring.

                        Whose post were you referring to? You quoted someone elses. However, I
                        agree that re-runs get boring and hit and run trolling that skips
                        lazily of any substantive technical topics is not really worth
                        anyone's time.

                        So, now that we have all had a laugh at the 100k HTML example, it
                        might indeed be wise to move on to more relevant topics. However,
                        since you chose to 'recap' let me just address some of your points.

                        jmc> Recap: HTML and SWF are indeed both useful formats...

                        That might be your recap. My recap is that XHTML and SVG are useful
                        formats, along with a number of others.

                        jmc> browsers don't always communicate with their plugins,

                        This is certainly true, and to be lamented.

                        jmc> although you can bookmark a scene within a SWF if the browser
                        jmc> permits...

                        (A pointer to what such a URL looks like would be interesting,
                        off-list if you wish).

                        jmc> it's useful to separate data from presentation,

                        Absolutely! Thats why the stylability of SVG is very important.

                        jmc> which is why SWF can offer efficiencies with live requests...

                        Not sure of the efficiencies you are referring to there.

                        jmc> search engines vary, but Atomz pulls text in SWF

                        Cool! Did they get a special license from you to do that, or can
                        anyone do it?

                        jmc> and Google (which relies
                        jmc> on links!) does offer "filetype:swf" arguments... much more in the usual
                        jmc> places.

                        Yes, relying on links from more open and accessible formats to other
                        ones is not really a winning solution.

                        jmc> Theme: Do stuff which you and others find rewarding. If you
                        jmc> invest your time trying to knock others down, then that leaves
                        jmc> you less time to build other things up.

                        Sterling advice. I can't help but agree. It would be nice indeed if
                        people did that and did not feel the need to play up their own formats
                        by attempting to rubbish or belittle other formats. We could all learn
                        from this advice I am sure.



                        --
                        Chris mailto:chris@...
                      • Mike Chambers
                        ... it just uses named anchors, so it would look like this: bookmark.html#bookmark1 ... i am not sure if they got a license, but since the SWF file format is
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 1 6:30 PM
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                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Chris Lilley [mailto:chris@...]
                          > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 9:04 PM
                          > To: jdowdell@...
                          > Cc: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Macromedia promises better Web apps
                          >
                          >
                          > jmc> although you can bookmark a scene within a SWF if the browser
                          > jmc> permits...
                          >
                          > (A pointer to what such a URL looks like would be interesting,
                          > off-list if you wish).

                          it just uses named anchors, so it would look like this:

                          bookmark.html#bookmark1

                          > Cool! Did they get a special license from you to do that, or can
                          > anyone do it?
                          >

                          i am not sure if they got a license, but since the SWF file format is
                          open (as in publicly available) then yes, anyone can do it (as is
                          evident by the large number of third party tools and libraries that
                          create the swf format, most if not all of these did not license it from
                          us).

                          btw, since this is my first post, i am the flash community manager for
                          macromedia.

                          mike chambers

                          mesh@...
                        • Dave Pawson
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 1 9:59 PM
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                            At 14:49 01/05/2002 -0700, jdowdell@... wrote:

                            >Theme: Do stuff which you and others find rewarding. If you invest your
                            >time trying to knock others down, then that leaves you less time to build
                            >other things up.

                            :-)
                          • Chris Lilley
                            ... MC it just uses named anchors, so it would look like this: MC bookmark.html#bookmark1 Hi, Mike. Thanks for supplying the technical details. Why is it an
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 2 12:30 AM
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                              On Thursday, May 2, 2002, 3:30:55 AM, Mike wrote:

                              >> From: Chris Lilley [mailto:chris@...]
                              >> jmc> although you can bookmark a scene within a SWF if the browser
                              >> jmc> permits...
                              >>
                              >> (A pointer to what such a URL looks like would be interesting,
                              >> off-list if you wish).

                              MC> it just uses named anchors, so it would look like this:

                              MC> bookmark.html#bookmark1

                              Hi, Mike. Thanks for supplying the technical details. Why is it an
                              html url though, wouldn't it be foo.swf#bookmark1?

                              Now I see what John Dowdell was alluding to about browsers
                              "communicating with plugins" - I guess the MSIE (3,4,5,6...) and NS
                              (3,4) bug that strips off the fragment identifier from URLs before
                              passing it to the plugin (! yes, really !) would interfere with that
                              mechanism.

                              I first came in contact with this bug as it affected addressing for
                              WebCGM plugins; it also affects SVG plugins and, presumably, the SWF
                              plugin.

                              >> Cool! Did they get a special license from you to do that, or can
                              >> anyone do it?
                              >>

                              MC> i am not sure if they got a license, but since the SWF file format is
                              MC> open (as in publicly available)

                              Including version 6?

                              MC> then yes, anyone can do it (as is
                              MC> evident by the large number of third party tools and libraries that
                              MC> create the swf format, most if not all of these did not license it from
                              MC> us).

                              I am aware of a fair amount of software that *writes* SWF; I was under
                              the impression that *reading* it was subject to license restrictions
                              as there is very little that does that.

                              MC> btw, since this is my first post, i am the flash community manager for
                              MC> macromedia.

                              Welcome to the SVG community. Thanks for your response.

                              --
                              Chris mailto:chris@...
                            • Tobias Reif
                              ... Is that why you repeated your severely diminishing and incorrect statements about SVG on http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/jd005.html ? (Sometimes
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 2 1:57 AM
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                                jdowdell@... wrote:

                                > Re-runs get boring.


                                Is that why you repeated your severely diminishing and incorrect
                                statements about SVG on
                                http://www.macromedia.com/desdev/jd_forum/jd005.html
                                ?

                                "(Sometimes people in those threads got on an SVG rant, but that has
                                very little relevance to this discussion. SVG is just a file format for
                                vector graphics, and never solved the practical problem of widespread
                                computer viewability. Flash solved both those problems years ago, and
                                then solved reliable animation and interactivity, and is now moving
                                towards video integration, efficient application development,
                                connectivity and communications, and viewability on portable and
                                embedded devices too.)"

                                Your anti SVG FUD gets old.
                                (I never saw SVG lovers rant; URLs?)
                                "never solved" => SVG is still much younger than SWF.
                                "just a file format for vector graphics" => it also does animation, has
                                it's own font format, and integrates with ECMA Script, Java, CSS, RDF,
                                SMIL, XForms, XTML, XSLFO, etc.
                                "reliable animation and interactivity" => SVG has them.
                                "video integration" => try Real Player SVG plus video.
                                "efficient application development" => that's where SVG shines.
                                Collaboration between designers and progreammers is greatly enhanced
                                through the modularity that's possible with SVG.
                                ... and SVG is viewable on portable devices.

                                Please do correct your statements on your page.


                                > Theme: Do stuff which you and others find rewarding. If you invest your
                                > time trying to knock others down, then that leaves you less time to build
                                > other things up.


                                Great idea! Simply stop trying to knock SVG down.


                                Tobi


                                --
                                http://www.pinkjuice.com/
                              • Mike Chambers
                                ... because flash movies are displayed within an HTML page (even when they are full screen flash apps). ... i am not aware of that, but i just put together a
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 2 6:14 AM
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                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Chris Lilley [mailto:chris@...]

                                  > MC> bookmark.html#bookmark1

                                  > Hi, Mike. Thanks for supplying the technical details. Why is it an
                                  > html url though, wouldn't it be foo.swf#bookmark1?

                                  because flash movies are displayed within an HTML page (even when they
                                  are full screen flash apps).

                                  > Now I see what John Dowdell was alluding to about browsers
                                  > "communicating with plugins" - I guess the MSIE (3,4,5,6...) and NS
                                  > (3,4) bug that strips off the fragment identifier from URLs before
                                  > passing it to the plugin (! yes, really !) would interfere with that
                                  > mechanism.

                                  i am not aware of that, but i just put together a simple example in IE 6
                                  and didn't have any problems.

                                  > MC> i am not sure if they got a license, but since the SWF
                                  > file format is
                                  > MC> open (as in publicly available)
                                  >
                                  > Including version 6?

                                  we haven't released the flash 6 file format yet. traditionally we
                                  release it a couple of months after the authoring environment release
                                  (we have to document it, and we are also working on getting out plugins
                                  for other platforms).

                                  > I am aware of a fair amount of software that *writes* SWF; I was under
                                  > the impression that *reading* it was subject to license restrictions
                                  > as there is very little that does that.

                                  again, not that i am aware of. You are correct that there are more tools
                                  that write it, but there are tools that read it such as FlashM and ASV
                                  (off the top of my head).

                                  mike chambers

                                  mesh@...
                                • Tobias Reif
                                  ... Is that http://www.buraks.com/asv/ the ASV you re talking about? (ASV also stands for the Adobe SVG Viewer.) Tobi -- http://www.pinkjuice.com/
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 2 7:00 AM
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                                    Mike Chambers wrote:


                                    > again, not that i am aware of. You are correct that there are more tools
                                    > that write it, but there are tools that read it such as FlashM and ASV
                                    > (off the top of my head).


                                    Is that

                                    http://www.buraks.com/asv/

                                    the ASV you're talking about?


                                    (ASV also stands for the Adobe SVG Viewer.)

                                    Tobi


                                    --
                                    http://www.pinkjuice.com/
                                  • Mike Chambers
                                    ... http://www.buraks.com/asv/ ... yep, sorry about that. here is the link to flashm http://flasm.sourceforge.net/ mike chambers mesh@macromedia.com
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 2 7:21 AM
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                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Tobias Reif [mailto:tobiasreif@...]

                                      > Is that
                                      >
                                      http://www.buraks.com/asv/

                                      >the ASV you're talking about?


                                      >(ASV also stands for the Adobe SVG Viewer.)

                                      yep, sorry about that.

                                      here is the link to flashm

                                      http://flasm.sourceforge.net/

                                      mike chambers

                                      mesh@...
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