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Re: [stranger_trilogy] Re: While we're at it...

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  • Des Brat
    Of course he knows how to vanish a little bit of mass.  But how in the world would he know how to vanish what little bit of mass from a nuclear bomb? All
    Message 1 of 28 , May 1 7:04 AM
      Of course he knows how to vanish a little bit of mass.  But how in the world would he know how to vanish what little bit of mass from a nuclear bomb?

      "All that would have needed to be vanished would have been the relatively small amount of the trigger mass to make the bomb unexplodable."

      I know if I were a wizard, and I had a huge, say, bomb with wires, and it was going to detonate, I'd be nervous about vanishing some wires.  After all, I may have lived in that world, but their technology is incomprehensible to me.  And the real fact is, we don't know how things vanish.  How quickly does energy go into "everything"?  Maybe its grouped together somewhere and slowly dissipates.  Maybe they didn't even want to risk something that vile having its energy, the cancer, radiation causing core of it, anywhere else.  And the scientist wouldn't have said, 'Hey, its reaction won't happen until a little bit of something is forced into the big bit of something (whatever was said in the last posts) so its perfectly safe to vanish."   And maybe somebody did consider vanishing it, we don't know if they did.  Maybe they simply figured Harry had already thought of it and had ruled it out, or maybe they just saw some impracticality that we
      don't, and never mentioned it to Harry, who, after all, is the narrator of this fine story.  We really don't know what conversations happened behind Harry's back.
      And I maintain a nuclear bomb, with all of its scary implications, is like upside down Swahili to a wizard.  If a wizard held a vial of this and that, and told me if I moved a muscle they'd mix it together and create a deadly gas that would kill most of humanity, I'd believe them.  Now, any wizard (Snape)would derisively snort and say, 'You can't just mix them together, you have to put the red vial in first over a simmering cauldron, stir it sideways for three years, add the second just as the 4,093,100th wave comes up, then add Neville's grandmother to it."  And I simply wouldn't know any better, because Wizard potions are absolutely incomprehensible to me, it would never occur to me that the contents of the vials themselves would have to be 'altered' to produce this poison.  And I doubt Harry, if vanishing the whole was out of the question, would vanish a little and hope it wouldn't go off because of some important compound missing.
      Or he may have just simply not thought about it, but I still could see everyone (see the narrator part) figuring he must know something they don't, since he's been working with the muggle scientist the most.  I really don't know.      

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: madfoot_moony <gimpydacat@...>
      To: stranger_trilogy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:31:26 PM
      Subject: [stranger_trilogy] Re: While we're at it...


      Maybe he wouldn't risk vanishing such an object, but the fact remains
      that vanishing was at least worth considering and it's not even
      mentioned. I doubt the complexity of the object would have anything to
      do with it as he's able to transfigure and vanish animals (life is far
      more complex than any bomb). He would know how to vanish even a little
      bit of mass simply because he learned to do just that during his 5th year.

      Obviously we can't expect the muggle scientist to think about
      vanishing it, but any wizards in the building worth their salt would
      be able to come to the same conclusion and vanish it. There's a reason
      they look down on muggles and are able to keep themselves separated.
      The only explanation that could explain this is Harry's one-track mind
      (like forgetting about the mirrors with Sirius) but that still doesn't
      discount the others in the building that weren't panicking.

      --- In stranger_trilogy@ yahoogroups. com, Des Brat <desireemathers@ ...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Okay, why are we nitpicking this? Harry probably wouldn't have
      risked vanishing an object he perceived as being complex and having
      high energy. Second, how in the world would he know how to just
      vanish a little bit of mass? And his Muggle scientist friend wouldn't
      be as well versed in what wizards to do for thisto be a natural
      conclusion. And, in Promised Land, the Girl-Who-Lived commented that
      she thought Harry's mind was geared toward war, violence and battle.
      I think him not vanishing a huge Muggle nuclear bomb is fairly realistic.
      >
      >




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    • lars.gehlert
      Well without having read everything else i would say that if magic can make mobilphones and stuff malfunction, like at hogwarts, i wouldn t risk it
      Message 2 of 28 , May 1 8:42 AM
        Well without having read everything else i would say that if magic can
        make mobilphones and stuff malfunction, like at hogwarts, i wouldn't
        risk it malfunctioning an atomic bomb.
      • Shreyas Vishvanathan
        yeah, i think that in one of the books, herm tells us that her digital watch goes haywire and the timer keeps showing wrong numbers or the same number....think
        Message 3 of 28 , May 1 8:53 AM
          yeah, i think that in one of the books, herm tells us that her digital watch goes haywire and the timer keeps showing wrong numbers or the same number....think about it- the nuke's timer is at 2 hours, and u think u have enough time to evac.
          Next thing u know, the timer shows 1 sec, then BOOM!

          Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: lars.gehlert <lars.gehlert@...>
          To: stranger_trilogy@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, 1 May, 2008 9:12:20 PM
          Subject: [stranger_trilogy] Re: While we're at it...

          Well without having read everything else i would say that if magic can
          make mobilphones and stuff malfunction, like at hogwarts, i wouldn't
          risk it malfunctioning an atomic bomb.




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        • mjc
          ... Ummm...who exactly would that be? Some low level broom pusher, barely above a Squib down in Court Room 10, polishing the chains on the witness stand?
          Message 4 of 28 , May 1 9:04 AM
            > The only explanation that could explain this is Harry's one-track mind
            > (like forgetting about the mirrors with Sirius) but that still doesn't
            > discount the others in the building that weren't panicking.
            >
            >

            Ummm...who exactly would that be? Some low level broom pusher, barely
            above a Squib down in Court Room 10, polishing the chains on the
            'witness' stand? (And only because he didn't know what was going on?)

            I think it was pretty much stated that everyone who knew what was
            going on was pretty much panicked and those that didn't, well...

            Yes, someone who was not panicked, knew what wizards are capable of
            and could figure out that even if the nuke was complex, that
            complexity doesn't really matter when vanishing it, probably could
            have vanished the bomb...but it wouldn't have made for much excitement
            in the chapter, would it?
          • madfoot_moony
            That s another point I didn t mention. Wouldn t the fact that the bomb is at the MoM already be enough to make it go haywire?
            Message 5 of 28 , May 1 5:51 PM
              That's another point I didn't mention. Wouldn't the fact that the bomb
              is at the MoM already be enough to make it go haywire?

              --- In stranger_trilogy@yahoogroups.com, "lars.gehlert"
              <lars.gehlert@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well without having read everything else i would say that if magic can
              > make mobilphones and stuff malfunction, like at hogwarts, i wouldn't
              > risk it malfunctioning an atomic bomb.
              >
            • madfoot_moony
              I would say that he doesn t need to know which little bit of mass to vanish from a bomb as he could just vanish it all. While I agree that we don t know
              Message 6 of 28 , May 1 6:24 PM
                I would say that he doesn't need to know which little bit of mass to
                vanish from a bomb as he could just vanish it all. While I agree that
                we don't know exactly how the energy would vanish, if you vanish the
                matter before it all went kablooie then there wouldn't be any energy
                to appear anywhere, would there? Or alternatively he could just
                transfigure it into a nice peacock and get the same result.

                As for other wizards, good point on them thinking that Harry may have
                already ruled it out and most of them not understanding anything muggle.

                Cheers,
                MFM


                PS. This will be my final post on the subject as this whole debate is
                getting a bit silly. I perceive what I believe to be a plot hole, one
                which the story never even considers and we're talking about the
                theories of magic to try to prove each other wrong. It doesn't matter
                which theories are right (even if I think mine make more sense), what
                matters the most to me is that this potential solution is at least
                mentioned somewhere.

                I honestly think that Jono never considered this and I originally
                wrote this not so that Harry could just vanish the bomb and go along
                his merry way. I posted it so that Jono could put in a couple lines as
                to why it wouldn't work. Maybe Voldemort spelled it to prevent
                tampering and the muggles discovered that something to stop magical
                interference, it's his universe and he can write whatever he wants to
                make it flow.

                --- In stranger_trilogy@yahoogroups.com, Des Brat <desireemathers@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Of course he knows how to vanish a little bit of mass. But how in
                the world would he know how to vanish what little bit of mass from a
                nuclear bomb?
                >
                > "All that would have needed to be vanished would have been the
                relatively small amount of the trigger mass to make the bomb
                unexplodable."
                >
                > I know if I were a wizard, and I had a huge, say, bomb with wires,
                and it was going to detonate, I'd be nervous about vanishing some
                wires. After all, I may have lived in that world, but their
                technology is incomprehensible to me. And the real fact is, we don't
                know how things vanish. How quickly does energy go into
                "everything"? Maybe its grouped together somewhere and slowly
                dissipates. Maybe they didn't even want to risk something that vile
                having its energy, the cancer, radiation causing core of it, anywhere
                else. And the scientist wouldn't have said, 'Hey, its reaction won't
                happen until a little bit of something is forced into the big bit of
                something (whatever was said in the last posts) so its perfectly safe
                to vanish." And maybe somebody did consider vanishing it, we don't
                know if they did. Maybe they simply figured Harry had already thought
                of it and had ruled it out, or maybe they just saw some impracticality
                that we
                > don't, and never mentioned it to Harry, who, after all, is the
                narrator of this fine story. We really don't know what conversations
                happened behind Harry's back.
                > And I maintain a nuclear bomb, with all of its scary implications,
                is like upside down Swahili to a wizard. If a wizard held a vial of
                this and that, and told me if I moved a muscle they'd mix it together
                and create a deadly gas that would kill most of humanity, I'd believe
                them. Now, any wizard (Snape)would derisively snort and say, 'You
                can't just mix them together, you have to put the red vial in first
                over a simmering cauldron, stir it sideways for three years, add the
                second just as the 4,093,100th wave comes up, then add Neville's
                grandmother to it." And I simply wouldn't know any better, because
                Wizard potions are absolutely incomprehensible to me, it would never
                occur to me that the contents of the vials themselves would have to be
                'altered' to produce this poison. And I doubt Harry, if vanishing the
                whole was out of the question, would vanish a little and hope it
                wouldn't go off because of some important compound missing.
                > Or he may have just simply not thought about it, but I still could
                see everyone (see the narrator part) figuring he must know something
                they don't, since he's been working with the muggle scientist the
                most. I really don't know.
                >
              • Lars Gehlert Banner-Voigt
                ... Nope apparently not, maybe voldemort did calculations on the hay-wireness or just took a chance - the only real question is if Harry and everyone else
                Message 7 of 28 , May 1 7:43 PM
                  --- In stranger_trilogy@yahoogroups.com, "madfoot_moony"
                  <gimpydacat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > That's another point I didn't mention. Wouldn't the fact that the bomb
                  > is at the MoM already be enough to make it go haywire?
                  >

                  Nope apparently not, maybe voldemort did calculations on the
                  "hay-wireness" or just took a chance - the only real question is if
                  Harry and everyone else reactions were realistic since magic really
                  ain't an exact science
                • xiaobozhang89
                  Personally, I think this argument has gone on way too long, but I m going to put in my opinion for the hell of it. As for the magic interfering with
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 1 10:47 PM
                    Personally, I think this argument has gone on way too long, but I'm
                    going to put in my opinion for the hell of it. As for the magic
                    interfering with electronics thing, you assume that the bomb contained
                    complex electronics at all. As was mentioned before, a nuclear device
                    is ridiculously easy to build if you have the right materials and
                    expertise. All it takes is a proper bomb shell, fissionable material,
                    and other materials depending on what kind of bomb you want (the gun-
                    type or the explosive compression). You assume that the bomb was not
                    altered in any way, it sure as hell could've been and all the internal
                    electronics removed for something far more primitive, and if there were
                    obvious electronics on the bomb itself, then they could be decoys put
                    there to encourage the assumption that magic would cause interference.
                    If you really wanted to, you can literally make a nuke with fuses,
                    which is made all that much easier with magic guiding the fuses' timing.

                    Let's have a few examples, with the gun-type bomb, which consists of
                    creating a fissionable mass as two separate masses that are too small
                    to spontaneously undergo fission individually, and then joining them
                    together at the right time to form one mass to spontaneously fission
                    and detonate. With magical means, there's this wonderful thing called a
                    portkey which transports a particular mass to a specified location, and
                    can be enchanted with a timer. Anti-portkey wards in the Ministry? Then
                    we go with the muggle method, anything that joins the two masses will
                    do, heck, you could use a spring if you can time it right. And I know
                    that with a mechanical timer, which uses no electricity at all, can do
                    that perfectly.

                    As for explosive compression, we take a mass that normally would not
                    spontaneously fission, and expose it to enough heat and pressure from
                    an explosion to compress the mass so that its atoms get close enough
                    together to spontaneously fission and detonate. I'm ridiculously
                    certain that there are objects one can enchant to explode at certain
                    times, I'm not quite sure about a timed enchantment that purely
                    increases pressure around an object, but I'm reasonably certain that an
                    arithmancy and runes master like Voldemort could create one. If you
                    just don't want to use magic, good old TNT and fuses will do too if you
                    know the right amount, and I think the story says somewhere that
                    Voldemort has access to such a nuclear expert. As for lighting the
                    fuses at the right time, we can again return to a mechanical timer, I
                    doubt that would be difficult for a skilled engineer.

                    Now that we have ascertained that a nuke can function in a magical
                    environment, we come to the vanishing. This is a rather sticky topic,
                    first of all, I don't think you can vanish something you can't see, and
                    that's why you can't just vanish the fissionable core in the bomb. They
                    can't vanish the core's surroundings either as that would most likely
                    expose them to deadly amounts of radiation. Now, I assume that the mass
                    of an object affects how easily it can be vanished. A feather? Easy. An
                    entire castle? Highly improbable. I have never read in canon of anyone
                    vanishing a large mass, and a nuclear warhead from a tactical missle is
                    a very large mass with all its components. I imagine it could not have
                    been very easy to vanish something with that kind of size and mass.

                    Finally, wouldn't Voldemort just put anti-tampering spells on his
                    weapon of mass destruction?
                  • Shreyas Vishvanathan
                    you are working under the assumption that mouldyshorts or his underlings have sufficient understanding to make such changes without blowing them self sky high.
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 1 11:33 PM
                      you are working under the assumption that mouldyshorts or his underlings have sufficient understanding to make such changes without blowing them self sky high.

                      Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: xiaobozhang89 <xiaobozhang@...>
                      To: stranger_trilogy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, 2 May, 2008 11:17:42 AM
                      Subject: [stranger_trilogy] Re: While we're at it...

                      Personally, I think this argument has gone on way too long, but I'm
                      going to put in my opinion for the hell of it. As for the magic
                      interfering with electronics thing, you assume that the bomb contained
                      complex electronics at all. As was mentioned before, a nuclear device
                      is ridiculously easy to build if you have the right materials and
                      expertise. All it takes is a proper bomb shell, fissionable material,
                      and other materials depending on what kind of bomb you want (the gun-
                      type or the explosive compression) . You assume that the bomb was not
                      altered in any way, it sure as hell could've been and all the internal
                      electronics removed for something far more primitive, and if there were
                      obvious electronics on the bomb itself, then they could be decoys put
                      there to encourage the assumption that magic would cause interference.
                      If you really wanted to, you can literally make a nuke with fuses,
                      which is made all that much easier with magic guiding the fuses' timing.

                      Let's have a few examples, with the gun-type bomb, which consists of
                      creating a fissionable mass as two separate masses that are too small
                      to spontaneously undergo fission individually, and then joining them
                      together at the right time to form one mass to spontaneously fission
                      and detonate. With magical means, there's this wonderful thing called a
                      portkey which transports a particular mass to a specified location, and
                      can be enchanted with a timer. Anti-portkey wards in the Ministry? Then
                      we go with the muggle method, anything that joins the two masses will
                      do, heck, you could use a spring if you can time it right. And I know
                      that with a mechanical timer, which uses no electricity at all, can do
                      that perfectly.

                      As for explosive compression, we take a mass that normally would not
                      spontaneously fission, and expose it to enough heat and pressure from
                      an explosion to compress the mass so that its atoms get close enough
                      together to spontaneously fission and detonate. I'm ridiculously
                      certain that there are objects one can enchant to explode at certain
                      times, I'm not quite sure about a timed enchantment that purely
                      increases pressure around an object, but I'm reasonably certain that an
                      arithmancy and runes master like Voldemort could create one. If you
                      just don't want to use magic, good old TNT and fuses will do too if you
                      know the right amount, and I think the story says somewhere that
                      Voldemort has access to such a nuclear expert. As for lighting the
                      fuses at the right time, we can again return to a mechanical timer, I
                      doubt that would be difficult for a skilled engineer.

                      Now that we have ascertained that a nuke can function in a magical
                      environment, we come to the vanishing. This is a rather sticky topic,
                      first of all, I don't think you can vanish something you can't see, and
                      that's why you can't just vanish the fissionable core in the bomb. They
                      can't vanish the core's surroundings either as that would most likely
                      expose them to deadly amounts of radiation. Now, I assume that the mass
                      of an object affects how easily it can be vanished. A feather? Easy. An
                      entire castle? Highly improbable. I have never read in canon of anyone
                      vanishing a large mass, and a nuclear warhead from a tactical missle is
                      a very large mass with all its components. I imagine it could not have
                      been very easy to vanish something with that kind of size and mass.

                      Finally, wouldn't Voldemort just put anti-tampering spells on his
                      weapon of mass destruction?




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                      From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • xiaobozhang89
                      Yes, I am aware of the assumption I am making, but as I siad in my explanation, it is mentioned in the story that Voldemort does have such an expert. In
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 2 3:05 AM
                        Yes, I am aware of the assumption I am making, but as I siad in my
                        explanation, it is mentioned in the story that Voldemort does have
                        such an expert.

                        In Chapter 10:

                        "During the attack, a Trident MK5 Missile had been disassembled and a
                        fifty kilo-tonne warhead had been stolen. Harry had no idea what a
                        kilo-tonne was, but he understood what a warhead was and it was not
                        something Voldemort should have. The tracking devices on the bomb
                        were removed and left at the scene of the crime. On the back page was
                        a list of people who knew about this. There were several military
                        officers, and several scientists who were part of the Nuclear
                        Program, and were experts in this field. Voldemort must have found
                        another expert to help steal the bomb. Something like this was huge;
                        how long had he been planning it?"

                        And.....

                        "If you read the report," replied Dumbledore gravely. "The missile
                        was opened, the security and anti-tamper devices bypassed, the
                        tracking device taken out, and the war-head removed. Whoever did this
                        has a keen knowledge of the internal workings of such a device."
                      • Shreyas Vishvanathan
                        ok heh, was half asleep when i read that. Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 2 7:12 AM
                          ok heh, was half asleep when i read that.

                          Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: xiaobozhang89 <xiaobozhang@...>
                          To: stranger_trilogy@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, 2 May, 2008 3:35:19 PM
                          Subject: [stranger_trilogy] Re: While we're at it...

                          Yes, I am aware of the assumption I am making, but as I siad in my
                          explanation, it is mentioned in the story that Voldemort does have
                          such an expert.

                          In Chapter 10:

                          "During the attack, a Trident MK5 Missile had been disassembled and a
                          fifty kilo-tonne warhead had been stolen. Harry had no idea what a
                          kilo-tonne was, but he understood what a warhead was and it was not
                          something Voldemort should have. The tracking devices on the bomb
                          were removed and left at the scene of the crime. On the back page was
                          a list of people who knew about this. There were several military
                          officers, and several scientists who were part of the Nuclear
                          Program, and were experts in this field. Voldemort must have found
                          another expert to help steal the bomb. Something like this was huge;
                          how long had he been planning it?"

                          And.....

                          "If you read the report," replied Dumbledore gravely. "The missile
                          was opened, the security and anti-tamper devices bypassed, the
                          tracking device taken out, and the war-head removed. Whoever did this
                          has a keen knowledge of the internal workings of such a device."




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                          Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Des Brat
                          I wasn t going to comment anymore either, but that is a very good point.  Hell, Fred and George made their fireworks unVanishable, unStunnerable, and so
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 2 9:00 AM
                            I wasn't going to comment anymore either, but that is a very good point.  Hell, Fred and George made their fireworks unVanishable, unStunnerable, and so forth...  Not saying a nuclear bomb is the same as a firework, but if they could do it, everyone should have an idea Voldemort can.  I forgot Voldemort had his own expert, and besides...Harry not thinking of it isn't too much the surprise, eh?  I don't blame wizards for not looking at the most obvious solution.  Especially since, as one canon quote said, 'They have magic too'.



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Shreyas Vishvanathan <shreyas_ssv@...>
                            To: stranger_trilogy@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, May 2, 2008 8:12:46 AM
                            Subject: Re: [stranger_trilogy] Re: While we're at it...


                            ok heh, was half asleep when i read that.

                            Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: xiaobozhang89 <xiaobozhang@ hotmail.com>
                            To: stranger_trilogy@ yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Friday, 2 May, 2008 3:35:19 PM
                            Subject: [stranger_trilogy] Re: While we're at it...

                            Yes, I am aware of the assumption I am making, but as I siad in my
                            explanation, it is mentioned in the story that Voldemort does have
                            such an expert.

                            In Chapter 10:

                            "During the attack, a Trident MK5 Missile had been disassembled and a
                            fifty kilo-tonne warhead had been stolen. Harry had no idea what a
                            kilo-tonne was, but he understood what a warhead was and it was not
                            something Voldemort should have. The tracking devices on the bomb
                            were removed and left at the scene of the crime. On the back page was
                            a list of people who knew about this. There were several military
                            officers, and several scientists who were part of the Nuclear
                            Program, and were experts in this field. Voldemort must have found
                            another expert to help steal the bomb. Something like this was huge;
                            how long had he been planning it?"

                            And.....

                            "If you read the report," replied Dumbledore gravely. "The missile
                            was opened, the security and anti-tamper devices bypassed, the
                            tracking device taken out, and the war-head removed. Whoever did this
                            has a keen knowledge of the internal workings of such a device."


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