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Re: Memento Mori

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  • snailman100
    Fascinating article! Seems a bit harsh on the Goth subculture though. He seems to equate it with the various metal subcultures, but apart from some of the
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 1, 2009
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      Fascinating article!

      Seems a bit harsh on the Goth subculture though. He seems to equate it
      with the various metal subcultures, but apart from some of the imagery,
      I think they're fairly distinct.

      I think the Goths are basically an offshoot of the original 18th/19th
      century Romantic movement. As such, they're certainly very far away from
      stoicism, valuing sincere emotion very highly. Also like the
      Epicureans, you could accuse them of preferring to retreat from
      conventional society rather than engage politically with it.

      However, they also tend to be generally anti-materialistic, tolerant of
      others, peaceful and law-abiding; all things stoics approve of.

      So overall, I don't see how they have an "appetite for destruction".
      They don't hold pitched battles in the street like the Mods and the
      Rockers did. They're more melancholics than maniacs.


      --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kelly <ptypes@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is not to denigrate the daughters of the Spanish prime minister
      > who showed up in Washington sporting the Goth look. I don't know to
      > what extent they have adopted Goth values, nor do I know anything
      > about their characters.
      >
      >
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/zapateros-goth-daughters_n_3023\
      96.html
      >
      > It's to share with you a blog post by ISF member, Jules Evans, which
      > includes a comparison of Stoic and Goth preoccupations with death.
      >
      > http://www.politicsofwellbeing.com/2009/05/memento-mori.html
      >
      > "In such a [modern] culture, it is unsurprising the _memento_mori_ has
      > all but disappeared. There are traces of its survival – in Damien
      > Hirst's art, for example, such as his exhibit of a hunk of meat slowly
      > being eaten by flies, or his skull made of diamonds. But even here,
      > there seems to be an inability to go beyond our culture of glamour and
      > materialism – Hirst's famous pickled shark is called, tellingly,
      'The
      > physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.
      >
      > "Goth sub-culture shows, by contrast, an apparent inability to
      > consider anything _but_ death. It is at the centre of Goth and metal
      > imagery, in skull tattoos, on the covers of albums, in bands' songs
      > and band names: MegaDeath, Death Denied, Slayer, Dismember, Autopsy,
      > Anatomy.
      >
      > "It's as if, through some cultural eco-system, the denial of death by
      > the majority of western society has forced this sub-culture of
      > outsiders to become obsessed by it.
      >
      > "But you couldn't say that the Goth obsession with death is really a
      > _memento_mori_ in anything like the Stoic sense. The ancients used it
      > to accept the natural cycle of life and death, to transcend the self,
      > to achieve harmony with the cosmos, to overcome their pride and
      > egotism. Goths and metal-heads, by contrast, use the imagery of death
      > to assert their uniqueness, their rebellion against conventional
      > society, their Romantic or adolescent appetite for destruction. They
      > move from an attachment to life to an attachment to death."
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Dave
      >
      > --
      > PTypes Personality Types
      > http://www.ptypes.com/
      >
    • brunians@brunians.org
      As far as I can see it s all about drama, and I d leave the sincere out of that valuing sincere emotion very highly . .
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 1, 2009
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        As far as I can see it's all about drama, and I'd leave the 'sincere' out
        of that 'valuing sincere emotion very highly'.




        .

        > Fascinating article!
        >
        > Seems a bit harsh on the Goth subculture though. He seems to equate it
        > with the various metal subcultures, but apart from some of the imagery,
        > I think they're fairly distinct.
        >
        > I think the Goths are basically an offshoot of the original 18th/19th
        > century Romantic movement. As such, they're certainly very far away from
        > stoicism, valuing sincere emotion very highly. Also like the
        > Epicureans, you could accuse them of preferring to retreat from
        > conventional society rather than engage politically with it.
        >
        > However, they also tend to be generally anti-materialistic, tolerant of
        > others, peaceful and law-abiding; all things stoics approve of.
        >
        > So overall, I don't see how they have an "appetite for destruction".
        > They don't hold pitched battles in the street like the Mods and the
        > Rockers did. They're more melancholics than maniacs.
        >
        >
        > --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kelly <ptypes@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> This is not to denigrate the daughters of the Spanish prime minister
        >> who showed up in Washington sporting the Goth look. I don't know to
        >> what extent they have adopted Goth values, nor do I know anything
        >> about their characters.
        >>
        >>
        > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/zapateros-goth-daughters_n_3023\
        > 96.html
        >>
        >> It's to share with you a blog post by ISF member, Jules Evans, which
        >> includes a comparison of Stoic and Goth preoccupations with death.
        >>
        >> http://www.politicsofwellbeing.com/2009/05/memento-mori.html
        >>
        >> "In such a [modern] culture, it is unsurprising the _memento_mori_ has
        >> all but disappeared. There are traces of its survival – in Damien
        >> Hirst's art, for example, such as his exhibit of a hunk of meat slowly
        >> being eaten by flies, or his skull made of diamonds. But even here,
        >> there seems to be an inability to go beyond our culture of glamour and
        >> materialism – Hirst's famous pickled shark is called, tellingly,
        > 'The
        >> physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.
        >>
        >> "Goth sub-culture shows, by contrast, an apparent inability to
        >> consider anything _but_ death. It is at the centre of Goth and metal
        >> imagery, in skull tattoos, on the covers of albums, in bands' songs
        >> and band names: MegaDeath, Death Denied, Slayer, Dismember, Autopsy,
        >> Anatomy.
        >>
        >> "It's as if, through some cultural eco-system, the denial of death by
        >> the majority of western society has forced this sub-culture of
        >> outsiders to become obsessed by it.
        >>
        >> "But you couldn't say that the Goth obsession with death is really a
        >> _memento_mori_ in anything like the Stoic sense. The ancients used it
        >> to accept the natural cycle of life and death, to transcend the self,
        >> to achieve harmony with the cosmos, to overcome their pride and
        >> egotism. Goths and metal-heads, by contrast, use the imagery of death
        >> to assert their uniqueness, their rebellion against conventional
        >> society, their Romantic or adolescent appetite for destruction. They
        >> move from an attachment to life to an attachment to death."
        >>
        >> Best wishes,
        >> Dave
        >>
        >> --
        >> PTypes Personality Types
        >> http://www.ptypes.com/
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • snailman100
        Well, I think the usual stoic principle is that if you indulge an emotion, you strengthen it; if you resist an emotion, you weaken it. If so, we should perhaps
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 1, 2009
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          Well, I think the usual stoic principle is that if you indulge an emotion, you strengthen it; if you resist an emotion, you weaken it.

          If so, we should perhaps accept that the Goths are sincere in their emotions. Otherwise we risk falling into the fallacy that emotions are "just there", and can only be acknowledged or denied.

          However, while sincere, it's also a matter of choice. They choose to be more melancholy than they need to be.

          http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/07/20/


          --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, brunians@... wrote:
          >
          > As far as I can see it's all about drama, and I'd leave the 'sincere' out
          > of that 'valuing sincere emotion very highly'.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > .
          >
          > > Fascinating article!
          > >
          > > Seems a bit harsh on the Goth subculture though. He seems to equate it
          > > with the various metal subcultures, but apart from some of the imagery,
          > > I think they're fairly distinct.
          > >
          > > I think the Goths are basically an offshoot of the original 18th/19th
          > > century Romantic movement. As such, they're certainly very far away from
          > > stoicism, valuing sincere emotion very highly. Also like the
          > > Epicureans, you could accuse them of preferring to retreat from
          > > conventional society rather than engage politically with it.
          > >
          > > However, they also tend to be generally anti-materialistic, tolerant of
          > > others, peaceful and law-abiding; all things stoics approve of.
          > >
          > > So overall, I don't see how they have an "appetite for destruction".
          > > They don't hold pitched battles in the street like the Mods and the
          > > Rockers did. They're more melancholics than maniacs.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kelly ptypes@ wrote:
          > >>
          > >> This is not to denigrate the daughters of the Spanish prime minister
          > >> who showed up in Washington sporting the Goth look. I don't know to
          > >> what extent they have adopted Goth values, nor do I know anything
          > >> about their characters.
          > >>
          > >>
          > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/zapateros-goth-daughters_n_3023\
          > > 96.html
          > >>
          > >> It's to share with you a blog post by ISF member, Jules Evans, which
          > >> includes a comparison of Stoic and Goth preoccupations with death.
          > >>
          > >> http://www.politicsofwellbeing.com/2009/05/memento-mori.html
          > >>
          > >> "In such a [modern] culture, it is unsurprising the _memento_mori_ has
          > >> all but disappeared. There are traces of its survival – in Damien
          > >> Hirst's art, for example, such as his exhibit of a hunk of meat slowly
          > >> being eaten by flies, or his skull made of diamonds. But even here,
          > >> there seems to be an inability to go beyond our culture of glamour and
          > >> materialism – Hirst's famous pickled shark is called, tellingly,
          > > 'The
          > >> physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.
          > >>
          > >> "Goth sub-culture shows, by contrast, an apparent inability to
          > >> consider anything _but_ death. It is at the centre of Goth and metal
          > >> imagery, in skull tattoos, on the covers of albums, in bands' songs
          > >> and band names: MegaDeath, Death Denied, Slayer, Dismember, Autopsy,
          > >> Anatomy.
          > >>
          > >> "It's as if, through some cultural eco-system, the denial of death by
          > >> the majority of western society has forced this sub-culture of
          > >> outsiders to become obsessed by it.
          > >>
          > >> "But you couldn't say that the Goth obsession with death is really a
          > >> _memento_mori_ in anything like the Stoic sense. The ancients used it
          > >> to accept the natural cycle of life and death, to transcend the self,
          > >> to achieve harmony with the cosmos, to overcome their pride and
          > >> egotism. Goths and metal-heads, by contrast, use the imagery of death
          > >> to assert their uniqueness, their rebellion against conventional
          > >> society, their Romantic or adolescent appetite for destruction. They
          > >> move from an attachment to life to an attachment to death."
          > >>
          > >> Best wishes,
          > >> Dave
          > >>
          > >> --
          > >> PTypes Personality Types
          > >> http://www.ptypes.com/
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >

        • brunians@brunians.org
          They are largely acting. Indulging in the pathos with out a preceding propathos, to be technical. They do this mostly to manipulate people, like most
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 1, 2009
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            They are largely acting. Indulging in the pathos with out a preceding
            propathos, to be technical. They do this mostly to manipulate people, like
            most dramatists.

            This is, of course, my perception and opinion.



            .


            > Well, I think the usual stoic principle is that if you indulge an
            > emotion, you strengthen it; if you resist an emotion, you weaken it.
            >
            > If so, we should perhaps accept that the Goths are sincere in their
            > emotions. Otherwise we risk falling into the fallacy that emotions are
            > "just there", and can only be acknowledged or denied.
            >
            > However, while sincere, it's also a matter of choice. They choose to be
            > more melancholy than they need to be.
            >
            > http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/07/20/
            > <http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/07/20/>
            >
            >
            > --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, brunians@... wrote:
            >>
            >> As far as I can see it's all about drama, and I'd leave the 'sincere'
            > out
            >> of that 'valuing sincere emotion very highly'.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> .
            >>
            >> > Fascinating article!
            >> >
            >> > Seems a bit harsh on the Goth subculture though. He seems to equate
            > it
            >> > with the various metal subcultures, but apart from some of the
            > imagery,
            >> > I think they're fairly distinct.
            >> >
            >> > I think the Goths are basically an offshoot of the original
            > 18th/19th
            >> > century Romantic movement. As such, they're certainly very far away
            > from
            >> > stoicism, valuing sincere emotion very highly. Also like the
            >> > Epicureans, you could accuse them of preferring to retreat from
            >> > conventional society rather than engage politically with it.
            >> >
            >> > However, they also tend to be generally anti-materialistic, tolerant
            > of
            >> > others, peaceful and law-abiding; all things stoics approve of.
            >> >
            >> > So overall, I don't see how they have an "appetite for destruction".
            >> > They don't hold pitched battles in the street like the Mods and the
            >> > Rockers did. They're more melancholics than maniacs.
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kelly ptypes@ wrote:
            >> >>
            >> >> This is not to denigrate the daughters of the Spanish prime
            > minister
            >> >> who showed up in Washington sporting the Goth look. I don't know to
            >> >> what extent they have adopted Goth values, nor do I know anything
            >> >> about their characters.
            >> >>
            >> >>
            >> >
            > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/zapateros-goth-daughters_n_3023\
            > \
            >> > 96.html
            >> >>
            >> >> It's to share with you a blog post by ISF member, Jules Evans,
            > which
            >> >> includes a comparison of Stoic and Goth preoccupations with death.
            >> >>
            >> >> http://www.politicsofwellbeing.com/2009/05/memento-mori.html
            >> >>
            >> >> "In such a [modern] culture, it is unsurprising the _memento_mori_
            > has
            >> >> all but disappeared. There are traces of its survival – in
            > Damien
            >> >> Hirst's art, for example, such as his exhibit of a hunk of meat
            > slowly
            >> >> being eaten by flies, or his skull made of diamonds. But even here,
            >> >> there seems to be an inability to go beyond our culture of glamour
            > and
            >> >> materialism – Hirst's famous pickled shark is called,
            > tellingly,
            >> > 'The
            >> >> physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.
            >> >>
            >> >> "Goth sub-culture shows, by contrast, an apparent inability to
            >> >> consider anything _but_ death. It is at the centre of Goth and
            > metal
            >> >> imagery, in skull tattoos, on the covers of albums, in bands' songs
            >> >> and band names: MegaDeath, Death Denied, Slayer, Dismember,
            > Autopsy,
            >> >> Anatomy.
            >> >>
            >> >> "It's as if, through some cultural eco-system, the denial of death
            > by
            >> >> the majority of western society has forced this sub-culture of
            >> >> outsiders to become obsessed by it.
            >> >>
            >> >> "But you couldn't say that the Goth obsession with death is really
            > a
            >> >> _memento_mori_ in anything like the Stoic sense. The ancients used
            > it
            >> >> to accept the natural cycle of life and death, to transcend the
            > self,
            >> >> to achieve harmony with the cosmos, to overcome their pride and
            >> >> egotism. Goths and metal-heads, by contrast, use the imagery of
            > death
            >> >> to assert their uniqueness, their rebellion against conventional
            >> >> society, their Romantic or adolescent appetite for destruction.
            > They
            >> >> move from an attachment to life to an attachment to death."
            >> >>
            >> >> Best wishes,
            >> >> Dave
            >> >>
            >> >> --
            >> >> PTypes Personality Types
            >> >> http://www.ptypes.com/
            >> >>
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > ------------------------------------
            >> >
            >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >
            >
            >
          • Michel Daw
            The first song that should be included on any memento mori soundtrack is definately Dust In The Wind by Kansas. ... -- Cheers, Michel
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 1, 2009
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              The first song that should be included on any memento mori soundtrack
              is definately Dust In The Wind by Kansas.

              On 10/1/09, brunians@... <brunians@...> wrote:
              > They are largely acting. Indulging in the pathos with out a preceding
              > propathos, to be technical. They do this mostly to manipulate people, like
              > most dramatists.
              >
              > This is, of course, my perception and opinion.
              >
              >
              >
              > .
              >
              >
              >> Well, I think the usual stoic principle is that if you indulge an
              >> emotion, you strengthen it; if you resist an emotion, you weaken it.
              >>
              >> If so, we should perhaps accept that the Goths are sincere in their
              >> emotions. Otherwise we risk falling into the fallacy that emotions are
              >> "just there", and can only be acknowledged or denied.
              >>
              >> However, while sincere, it's also a matter of choice. They choose to be
              >> more melancholy than they need to be.
              >>
              >> http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/07/20/
              >> <http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/07/20/>
              >>
              >>
              >> --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, brunians@... wrote:
              >>>
              >>> As far as I can see it's all about drama, and I'd leave the 'sincere'
              >> out
              >>> of that 'valuing sincere emotion very highly'.
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> .
              >>>
              >>> > Fascinating article!
              >>> >
              >>> > Seems a bit harsh on the Goth subculture though. He seems to equate
              >> it
              >>> > with the various metal subcultures, but apart from some of the
              >> imagery,
              >>> > I think they're fairly distinct.
              >>> >
              >>> > I think the Goths are basically an offshoot of the original
              >> 18th/19th
              >>> > century Romantic movement. As such, they're certainly very far away
              >> from
              >>> > stoicism, valuing sincere emotion very highly. Also like the
              >>> > Epicureans, you could accuse them of preferring to retreat from
              >>> > conventional society rather than engage politically with it.
              >>> >
              >>> > However, they also tend to be generally anti-materialistic, tolerant
              >> of
              >>> > others, peaceful and law-abiding; all things stoics approve of.
              >>> >
              >>> > So overall, I don't see how they have an "appetite for destruction".
              >>> > They don't hold pitched battles in the street like the Mods and the
              >>> > Rockers did. They're more melancholics than maniacs.
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> > --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kelly ptypes@ wrote:
              >>> >>
              >>> >> This is not to denigrate the daughters of the Spanish prime
              >> minister
              >>> >> who showed up in Washington sporting the Goth look. I don't know to
              >>> >> what extent they have adopted Goth values, nor do I know anything
              >>> >> about their characters.
              >>> >>
              >>> >>
              >>> >
              >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/zapateros-goth-daughters_n_3023\
              >> \
              >>> > 96.html
              >>> >>
              >>> >> It's to share with you a blog post by ISF member, Jules Evans,
              >> which
              >>> >> includes a comparison of Stoic and Goth preoccupations with death.
              >>> >>
              >>> >> http://www.politicsofwellbeing.com/2009/05/memento-mori.html
              >>> >>
              >>> >> "In such a [modern] culture, it is unsurprising the _memento_mori_
              >> has
              >>> >> all but disappeared. There are traces of its survival – in
              >> Damien
              >>> >> Hirst's art, for example, such as his exhibit of a hunk of meat
              >> slowly
              >>> >> being eaten by flies, or his skull made of diamonds. But even here,
              >>> >> there seems to be an inability to go beyond our culture of glamour
              >> and
              >>> >> materialism – Hirst's famous pickled shark is called,
              >> tellingly,
              >>> > 'The
              >>> >> physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.
              >>> >>
              >>> >> "Goth sub-culture shows, by contrast, an apparent inability to
              >>> >> consider anything _but_ death. It is at the centre of Goth and
              >> metal
              >>> >> imagery, in skull tattoos, on the covers of albums, in bands' songs
              >>> >> and band names: MegaDeath, Death Denied, Slayer, Dismember,
              >> Autopsy,
              >>> >> Anatomy.
              >>> >>
              >>> >> "It's as if, through some cultural eco-system, the denial of death
              >> by
              >>> >> the majority of western society has forced this sub-culture of
              >>> >> outsiders to become obsessed by it.
              >>> >>
              >>> >> "But you couldn't say that the Goth obsession with death is really
              >> a
              >>> >> _memento_mori_ in anything like the Stoic sense. The ancients used
              >> it
              >>> >> to accept the natural cycle of life and death, to transcend the
              >> self,
              >>> >> to achieve harmony with the cosmos, to overcome their pride and
              >>> >> egotism. Goths and metal-heads, by contrast, use the imagery of
              >> death
              >>> >> to assert their uniqueness, their rebellion against conventional
              >>> >> society, their Romantic or adolescent appetite for destruction.
              >> They
              >>> >> move from an attachment to life to an attachment to death."
              >>> >>
              >>> >> Best wishes,
              >>> >> Dave
              >>> >>
              >>> >> --
              >>> >> PTypes Personality Types
              >>> >> http://www.ptypes.com/
              >>> >>
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> > ------------------------------------
              >>> >
              >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>> >
              >>>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >


              --
              Cheers,

              Michel
            • Stoic Stoic
              my 3 memento mori pop picks: Don t Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult Do You Realize by Flaming Lips Worms, by the Pogues, the lyrics to which are: The worms
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 2, 2009
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                my 3 memento mori pop picks:

                Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult
                Do You Realize by Flaming Lips
                Worms, by the Pogues, the lyrics to which are:

                The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
                The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
                The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
                Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
                Your brains come tumbling down your snout
                Be merry my friends
                Be merry

                --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Michel Daw <michel.daw@...> wrote:

                From: Michel Daw <michel.daw@...>
                Subject: Re: [stoics] Memento Mori
                To: stoics@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 6:23 PM

                The first song that should be included on any memento mori soundtrack
                is definately Dust In The Wind by Kansas.

                On 10/1/09, brunians@... <brunians@...> wrote:
                > They are largely acting. Indulging in the pathos with out a preceding
                > propathos, to be technical. They do this mostly to manipulate people, like
                > most dramatists.
                >
                > This is, of course, my perception and opinion.
                >
                >
                >
                > .
                >
                >
                >> Well, I think the usual stoic principle is that if you indulge an
                >> emotion, you strengthen it; if you resist an emotion, you weaken it.
                >>
                >> If so, we should perhaps accept that the Goths are sincere in their
                >> emotions. Otherwise we risk falling into the fallacy that emotions are
                >> "just there", and can only be acknowledged or denied.
                >>
                >> However, while sincere, it's also a matter of choice. They choose to be
                >> more melancholy than they need to be.
                >>
                >> http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/07/20/
                >> <http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/07/20/>
                >>
                >>
                >> --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, brunians@... wrote:
                >>>
                >>> As far as I can see it's all about drama, and I'd leave the 'sincere'
                >> out
                >>> of that 'valuing sincere emotion very highly'.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> .
                >>>
                >>> > Fascinating article!
                >>> >
                >>> > Seems a bit harsh on the Goth subculture though. He seems to equate
                >> it
                >>> > with the various metal subcultures, but apart from some of the
                >> imagery,
                >>> > I think they're fairly distinct.
                >>> >
                >>> > I think the Goths are basically an offshoot of the original
                >> 18th/19th
                >>> > century Romantic movement. As such, they're certainly very far away
                >> from
                >>> > stoicism, valuing sincere emotion very highly. Also like the
                >>> > Epicureans, you could accuse them of preferring to retreat from
                >>> > conventional society rather than engage politically with it.
                >>> >
                >>> > However, they also tend to be generally anti-materialistic, tolerant
                >> of
                >>> > others, peaceful and law-abiding; all things stoics approve of.
                >>> >
                >>> > So overall, I don't see how they have an "appetite for destruction".
                >>> > They don't hold pitched battles in the street like the Mods and the
                >>> > Rockers did. They're more melancholics than maniacs.
                >>> >
                >>> >
                >>> > --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, Dave Kelly ptypes@ wrote:
                >>> >>
                >>> >> This is not to denigrate the daughters of the Spanish prime
                >> minister
                >>> >> who showed up in Washington sporting the Goth look. I don't know to
                >>> >> what extent they have adopted Goth values, nor do I know anything
                >>> >> about their characters.
                >>> >>
                >>> >>
                >>> >
                >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/zapateros-goth-daughters_n_3023\
                >> \
                >>> > 96.html
                >>> >>
                >>> >> It's to share with you a blog post by ISF member, Jules Evans,
                >> which
                >>> >> includes a comparison of Stoic and Goth preoccupations with death.
                >>> >>
                >>> >> http://www.politicsofwellbeing.com/2009/05/memento-mori.html
                >>> >>
                >>> >> "In such a [modern] culture, it is unsurprising the _memento_mori_
                >> has
                >>> >> all but disappeared. There are traces of its survival – in
                >> Damien
                >>> >> Hirst's art, for example, such as his exhibit of a hunk of meat
                >> slowly
                >>> >> being eaten by flies, or his skull made of diamonds. But even here,
                >>> >> there seems to be an inability to go beyond our culture of glamour
                >> and
                >>> >> materialism – Hirst's famous pickled shark is called,
                >> tellingly,
                >>> > 'The
                >>> >> physical impossibility of death in the mind of someone living'.
                >>> >>
                >>> >> "Goth sub-culture shows, by contrast, an apparent inability to
                >>> >> consider anything _but_ death. It is at the centre of Goth and
                >> metal
                >>> >> imagery, in skull tattoos, on the covers of albums, in bands' songs
                >>> >> and band names: MegaDeath, Death Denied, Slayer, Dismember,
                >> Autopsy,
                >>> >> Anatomy.
                >>> >>
                >>> >> "It's as if, through some cultural eco-system, the denial of death
                >> by
                >>> >> the majority of western society has forced this sub-culture of
                >>> >> outsiders to become obsessed by it.
                >>> >>
                >>> >> "But you couldn't say that the Goth obsession with death is really
                >> a
                >>> >> _memento_mori_ in anything like the Stoic sense. The ancients used
                >> it
                >>> >> to accept the natural cycle of life and death, to transcend the
                >> self,
                >>> >> to achieve harmony with the cosmos, to overcome their pride and
                >>> >> egotism. Goths and metal-heads, by contrast, use the imagery of
                >> death
                >>> >> to assert their uniqueness, their rebellion against conventional
                >>> >> society, their Romantic or adolescent appetite for destruction.
                >> They
                >>> >> move from an attachment to life to an attachment to death."
                >>> >>
                >>> >> Best wishes,
                >>> >> Dave
                >>> >>
                >>> >> --
                >>> >> PTypes Personality Types
                >>> >> http://www.ptypes.com/
                >>> >>
                >>> >
                >>> >
                >>> >
                >>> >
                >>> >
                >>> > ------------------------------------
                >>> >
                >>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>> >
                >>> >
                >>> >
                >>> >
                >>>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Cheers,

                Michel


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