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Re: Empiricism, Reason, & Intuion in Agreement [was:The recycled uni

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  • Daniel
    On TJ freeing his slaves: I don t think one could simply choose to individually free one s slaves at that time. They were considered property. Someone would
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 1, 2009
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      On TJ freeing his slaves:
      I don't think one could simply choose to individually free one's slaves at that time. They were considered property. Someone would have seen them walking down the street and said, "whose slaves are these out loose?" and just nabbed them up (someone who may not have treated them as well). TJ was against slavery and promoted it's abolition in the constitution but didn't get his way. What you're saying is akin to suggesting a practical course for animal rights vegetarians would be to start buying up cows and letting them loose on the streets - that would do little for the cows. (of course, i realize it's sickening to compare blacks or any fellow human beings to cattle, but necessary to draw a comparison to the unfortunate world in which they lived since that's how they were viewed at the time)

      Sometimes it's impossible to fight the enormous tides of culture & history at the moment, but TJ seemed to believe that the right time would come eventually. Given his time and place, it seems to me his advocacy of freedom for all was quite illuminated. But then, I'm no history expert.
    • rick.bamford
      I dunno... I guess perhaps you re right and my criticism of TJ is unfair. Perhaps I am judging him unfairly by the standards of a more enlightened time.
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 3, 2009
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        I dunno... I guess perhaps you're right and my criticism of TJ is
        unfair. Perhaps I am judging him unfairly by the standards of a
        more enlightened time. Still, I think he could have done more than
        just talk. I believe there were free blacks, at least in New
        England, in his time, but I am unsure. I, too, am no history
        expert. But if so, he could have freed them, or perhaps sent them
        to someplace they could be free, such as Canada. Canada was
        controlled by the English, who had abandoned slavery by that time.
        (I still find it deliciously ironic how the colonies rebelled
        against the 'tyrannical' English who trampled their human rights,
        when the American colonists kept slaves and the English did not. It
        never ceases to amaze me how the human mind can compartmentalize
        things.)

        But I digress... I find TJ's actions, or lack thereof, akin to
        someone who professes to love animals, yet still eats meat. I
        cannot help but see a schism there. But then, I am imperfect, and
        thus so are my opinions.

        Best wishes to all,

        -R


        --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, Daniel <dtstrain@...> wrote:
        >
        > On TJ freeing his slaves:
        > I don't think one could simply choose to individually free one's
        slaves at that time. They were considered property. Someone would
        have seen them walking down the street and said, "whose slaves are
        these out loose?" and just nabbed them up (someone who may not have
        treated them as well). TJ was against slavery and promoted it's
        abolition in the constitution but didn't get his way. What you're
        saying is akin to suggesting a practical course for animal rights
        vegetarians would be to start buying up cows and letting them loose
        on the streets - that would do little for the cows. (of course, i
        realize it's sickening to compare blacks or any fellow human beings
        to cattle, but necessary to draw a comparison to the unfortunate
        world in which they lived since that's how they were viewed at the
        time)
        >
        > Sometimes it's impossible to fight the enormous tides of culture &
        history at the moment, but TJ seemed to believe that the right time
        would come eventually. Given his time and place, it seems to me his
        advocacy of freedom for all was quite illuminated. But then, I'm no
        history expert.
        >
      • Amos
        I m not a history expert either, but according to Wikipedia, Blacks were free in most of the Northern states. Amos
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 4, 2009
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          I'm not a history expert either, but according to Wikipedia,
          Blacks were free in most of the Northern states. Amos

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States


          --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, "rick.bamford" <rick.bamford@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I dunno... I guess perhaps you're right and my criticism of TJ is
          > unfair. Perhaps I am judging him unfairly by the standards of a
          > more enlightened time. Still, I think he could have done more than
          > just talk. I believe there were free blacks, at least in New
          > England, in his time, but I am unsure. I, too, am no history
          > expert. But if so, he could have freed them, or perhaps sent them
          > to someplace they could be free, such as Canada. Canada was
          > controlled by the English, who had abandoned slavery by that time.
          > (I still find it deliciously ironic how the colonies rebelled
          > against the 'tyrannical' English who trampled their human rights,
          > when the American colonists kept slaves and the English did not.
          It
          > never ceases to amaze me how the human mind can compartmentalize
          > things.)
          >
          > But I digress... I find TJ's actions, or lack thereof, akin to
          > someone who professes to love animals, yet still eats meat. I
          > cannot help but see a schism there. But then, I am imperfect, and
          > thus so are my opinions.
          >
          > Best wishes to all,
          >
          > -R
          >
          >
          > --- In stoics@yahoogroups.com, Daniel <dtstrain@> wrote:
          > >
          > > On TJ freeing his slaves:
          > > I don't think one could simply choose to individually free one's
          > slaves at that time. They were considered property. Someone would
          > have seen them walking down the street and said, "whose slaves are
          > these out loose?" and just nabbed them up (someone who may not have
          > treated them as well). TJ was against slavery and promoted it's
          > abolition in the constitution but didn't get his way. What you're
          > saying is akin to suggesting a practical course for animal rights
          > vegetarians would be to start buying up cows and letting them loose
          > on the streets - that would do little for the cows. (of course, i
          > realize it's sickening to compare blacks or any fellow human beings
          > to cattle, but necessary to draw a comparison to the unfortunate
          > world in which they lived since that's how they were viewed at the
          > time)
          > >
          > > Sometimes it's impossible to fight the enormous tides of culture
          &
          > history at the moment, but TJ seemed to believe that the right time
          > would come eventually. Given his time and place, it seems to me his
          > advocacy of freedom for all was quite illuminated. But then, I'm no
          > history expert.
          > >
          >
        • Mark Travis
          I find TJ s actions, or lack thereof, akin to someone who professes to love animals, yet still eats meat. --Rick ... Vegetarians are good food. ... From:
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 4, 2009
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            I find TJ's actions, or lack thereof, akin to someone who professes to love animals, yet still eats meat.

            --Rick

            -----------------------

            Vegetarians are good food.

            --- On Sat, 1/3/09, rick.bamford <rick.bamford@...> wrote:
            From: rick.bamford <rick.bamford@...>
            Subject: [stoics] Re: Empiricism, Reason, & Intuion in Agreement [was:The recycled uni
            To: stoics@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 7:06 PM

            I dunno... I guess perhaps you're right and my criticism of TJ is
            unfair. Perhaps I am judging him unfairly by the standards of a
            more enlightened time. Still, I think he could have done more than
            just talk. I believe there were free blacks, at least in New
            England, in his time, but I am unsure. I, too, am no history
            expert. But if so, he could have freed them, or perhaps sent them
            to someplace they could be free, such as Canada. Canada was
            controlled by the English, who had abandoned slavery by that time.
            (I still find it deliciously ironic how the colonies rebelled
            against the 'tyrannical' English who trampled their human rights,
            when the American colonists kept slaves and the English did not. It
            never ceases to amaze me how the human mind can compartmentalize
            things.)

            But I digress... I find TJ's actions, or lack thereof, akin to
            someone who professes to love animals, yet still eats meat. I
            cannot help but see a schism there. But then, I am imperfect, and
            thus so are my opinions.

            Best wishes to all,

            -R

            --- In stoics@yahoogroups. com, Daniel <dtstrain@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > On TJ freeing his slaves:
            > I don't think one could simply choose to individually free one's
            slaves at that time. They were considered property. Someone would
            have seen them walking down the street and said, "whose slaves are
            these out loose?" and just nabbed them up (someone who may not have
            treated them as well). TJ was against slavery and promoted it's
            abolition in the constitution but didn't get his way. What you're
            saying is akin to suggesting a practical course for animal rights
            vegetarians would be to start buying up cows and letting them loose
            on the streets - that would do little for the cows. (of course, i
            realize it's sickening to compare blacks or any fellow human beings
            to cattle, but necessary to draw a comparison to the unfortunate
            world in which they lived since that's how they were viewed at the
            time)
            >
            > Sometimes it's impossible to fight the enormous tides of culture &
            history at the moment, but TJ seemed to believe that the right time
            would come eventually. Given his time and place, it seems to me his
            advocacy of freedom for all was quite illuminated. But then, I'm no
            history expert.
            >


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