Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

gartner book

Expand Messages
  • peter
    Vicki, I notice there s a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks. Best, Peter
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 4 9:44 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
      Best,
      Peter
    • Vicki Russell
      It s also in a couple of local college libraries, I d like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don t throw things at
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 4 10:09 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).

        I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.



        From: peter <phrygianslave@...>
        To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
        Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book

         

        Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
        Best,
        Peter

      • peter the Cynic
        I m interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don t necessarily disagree, by the
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 4 10:22 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          
          I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
          Peter
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
          Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

           

          It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).

          I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.



          From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
          To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
          Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book

           

          Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
          Best,
          Peter

        • Vicki Russell
          My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around.
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 4 11:02 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!


            From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@...>
            To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
            Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

             

            

            I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
            Peter
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
            Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

             

            It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).

            I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.



            From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
            To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
            Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book

             

            Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
            Best,
            Peter

          • Vicki Russell
            At some point I ll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I m not making as much
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 4 11:14 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.



              From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@...>
              To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

               

              My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!


              From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
              To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

               

              

              I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
              Peter
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
              Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

               

              It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).

              I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.



              From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
              To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
              Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book

               

              Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
              Best,
              Peter

            • peter the Cynic
              So many books; so little time! If the description of your house were one of a dream I m sure it d have some special psychological significance / interpretation
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 4 1:26 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                
                So many books; so little time!
                If the description of your house were one of a dream I'm sure it'd have some special psychological significance / interpretation all of its own . . .
                Take care,
                Peter
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                 

                At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.



                From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                 

                My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!


                From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                 

                

                I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                Peter
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                 

                It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).

                I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.



                From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                 

                Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                Best,
                Peter

              • peter the Cynic
                Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven: “In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 4 1:51 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  

                  Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:

                  “In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]

                  By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.  

                  Peter

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                  Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                   

                  At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.



                  From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                  To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                  Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                   

                  My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!


                  From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                  To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                  Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                   

                  

                  I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                  Peter
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                  Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                   

                  It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).

                  I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.



                  From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                  To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                  Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                   

                  Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                  Best,
                  Peter

                • Vicki Russell
                  That does sound wonderful, Peter. I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 4 2:39 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    That does sound wonderful, Peter.

                    I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)



                    From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@...>
                    To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                    Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                     

                    

                    Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:

                    “In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]

                    By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.  

                    Peter

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                     

                    At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.



                    From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                    To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                    Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                     

                    My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!


                    From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                    To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                    Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                     

                    

                    I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                    Peter
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                    Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                     

                    It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).

                    I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.



                    From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                    To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                    Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                     

                    Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                    Best,
                    Peter

                  • peter the Cynic
                    Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 4 3:02 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      
                      Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect? 
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                      Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                       

                      That does sound wonderful, Peter.

                      I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap. com where people who want them can claim them :-)



                      From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                      To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                      Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                       

                      

                      Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:

                      “In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]

                      By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.  

                      Peter

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                       

                      At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.



                      From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                      To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                      Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                       

                      My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!


                      From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                      To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                      Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                       

                      

                      I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                      Peter
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                      Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                       

                      It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).

                      I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.



                      From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                      To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                      Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book

                       

                      Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                      Best,
                      Peter

                    • Amos
                      Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don t
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 4 3:25 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos

                        --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Vicki Russell
                        > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                        >
                        > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@...>
                        > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                        >
                        >
                        > 
                        >
                        > Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:
                        >
                        > “In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]
                        >
                        > By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                        >
                        > Peter
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Vicki Russell
                        > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                        > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                        > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                        >
                        >
                        > 
                        >
                        > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                        > Peter
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Vicki Russell
                        > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                        >
                        > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                        > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                        > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                        >
                        >
                        > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                        > Best,
                        > Peter
                        >
                      • Amos
                        I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don t
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 4 3:33 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don't bother to answer a fool, if you can avoid him or her. After all, I'm not a light unto the nations, here to impart wisdom and knowledge to the masses. Amos

                          --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "Amos" <vivepablo@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos
                          >
                          > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Vicki Russell
                          > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                          > >
                          > > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@>
                          > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 
                          > >
                          > > Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:
                          > >
                          > > “In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]
                          > >
                          > > By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                          > >
                          > > Peter
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Vicki Russell
                          > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                          > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                          > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 
                          > >
                          > > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                          > > Peter
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Vicki Russell
                          > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                          > >
                          > > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                          > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                          > > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                          > > Best,
                          > > Peter
                          > >
                          >
                        • peter the Cynic
                          Ha! I especially like the me ! I think Mohammed was illiterate too; but he must have had a phenomenal memory to be able to recall Allah s words -- especially
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 4 4:06 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            
                            Ha! I especially like the 'me'!
                            I think Mohammed was illiterate too; but he must have had a phenomenal memory to be able to recall Allah's words -- especially where those long passages in the Koran are concerned -- to then dictate them to the scribes that put the Koran together.
                            I think Socrates discuss the subject of words (writing) and memory (oral tradition) in the Phaedrus.
                            P.
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Amos
                            Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:33 PM
                            Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                             

                            I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don't bother to answer a fool, if you can avoid him or her. After all, I'm not a light unto the nations, here to impart wisdom and knowledge to the masses. Amos

                            --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "Amos" <vivepablo@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos
                            >
                            > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Vicki Russell
                            > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                            > >
                            > > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@>
                            > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 
                            > >
                            > > Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:
                            > >
                            > > “In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]
                            > >
                            > > By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                            > >
                            > > Peter
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Vicki Russell
                            > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                            > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                            > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 
                            > >
                            > > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                            > > Peter
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Vicki Russell
                            > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                            > >
                            > > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                            > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                            > > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                            > > Best,
                            > > Peter
                            > >
                            >

                          • Amos
                            In the Phaedrus and in the 7th Letter Plato writes against writing (which is strange), in favor maybe of oral tradition and as I recall, in favor of people
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 4 5:03 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              In the Phaedrus and in the 7th Letter Plato writes against writing (which is strange), in favor maybe of oral tradition and as I recall, in favor of people thinking through their own problems and solutions and not relying on books. That's what I mean when I include myself among the wise: as I tried to say in the ISF, to each his own path, and the wise man (or woman) is he or she who discovers who he is and where he is going, if anywhere, in life. No one can discover that for you, and what I discover about myself is first of all, very difficult to communicate in words and second,
                              generally, has little to do with anyone else's life, if only because all of us have to work our way out through that individual maze in which our upbringings and childhood, all of them so different, place us. Most people never even realize that they're in that maze (comparable to Plato's cave), and probably, none of us, even those who become aware of it, make our way out to the light, which is only a light in metaphoric terms. Best, Amos


                              --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Ha! I especially like the 'me'!
                              > I think Mohammed was illiterate too; but he must have had a phenomenal memory to be able to recall Allah's words -- especially where those long passages in the Koran are concerned -- to then dictate them to the scribes that put the Koran together.
                              > I think Socrates discuss the subject of words (writing) and memory (oral tradition) in the Phaedrus.
                              > P.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Amos
                              > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:33 PM
                              > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don't bother to answer a fool, if you can avoid him or her. After all, I'm not a light unto the nations, here to impart wisdom and knowledge to the masses. Amos
                              >
                              > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "Amos" <vivepablo@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos
                              > >
                              > > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: Vicki Russell
                              > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                              > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                              > > >
                              > > > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@>
                              > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                              > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > 
                              > > >
                              > > > Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:
                              > > >
                              > > > â€Å"In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]
                              > > >
                              > > > By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                              > > >
                              > > > Peter
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: Vicki Russell
                              > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                              > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              > > > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                              > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                              > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                              > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                              > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > 
                              > > >
                              > > > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                              > > > Peter
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: Vicki Russell
                              > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                              > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                              > > >
                              > > > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              > > > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                              > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                              > > > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                              > > > Best,
                              > > > Peter
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • peter the Cynic
                              But I m in agreement with you on this. It was only after philosophy got transplanted to Rome that the situation changed from (how best to describe it?) the
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 5 3:11 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                But I'm in agreement with you on this. It was only after philosophy got transplanted to Rome that the situation changed from (how best to describe it?) the 'know thyself' approach of the Greeks, say -- (the early Cynic-Stoic, Zeno of Citium, for example, went from one master to another, one text to another, searching out doctrines matching / reflecting / in keeping with his own character, preferences, aspirations, etc.,) -- to the 'choose between these limited options' approach of the Romans. Lucian's send-up of the situation in his 'Socratic' dialogue, the Hermotimus, makes the point. And according to Enfield (after Brucker): "Every one [of the Romans] found, in the doctrines of some one of the Grecian sects, tenets which suited his own disposition and situation; and therefore no one thought it necessary to attempt farther discoveries or improvements in philosophy." (Yes, of course, Enfield's early C19th opinion is historically of interest, but I believe the substance of his words still hold good even today -- besides, I believe his is arguably the definitive 'early modern' secondary source: the source that spawned a thousand lesser histories.) So, yes, I agree with you, Amos.
                                Peter
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Amos
                                Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 1:03 AM
                                Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                                 

                                In the Phaedrus and in the 7th Letter Plato writes against writing (which is strange), in favor maybe of oral tradition and as I recall, in favor of people thinking through their own problems and solutions and not relying on books. That's what I mean when I include myself among the wise: as I tried to say in the ISF, to each his own path, and the wise man (or woman) is he or she who discovers who he is and where he is going, if anywhere, in life. No one can discover that for you, and what I discover about myself is first of all, very difficult to communicate in words and second,
                                generally, has little to do with anyone else's life, if only because all of us have to work our way out through that individual maze in which our upbringings and childhood, all of them so different, place us. Most people never even realize that they're in that maze (comparable to Plato's cave), and probably, none of us, even those who become aware of it, make our way out to the light, which is only a light in metaphoric terms. Best, Amos

                                --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Ha! I especially like the 'me'!
                                > I think Mohammed was illiterate too; but he must have had a phenomenal memory to be able to recall Allah's words -- especially where those long passages in the Koran are concerned -- to then dictate them to the scribes that put the Koran together.
                                > I think Socrates discuss the subject of words (writing) and memory (oral tradition) in the Phaedrus.
                                > P.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Amos
                                > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:33 PM
                                > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don't bother to answer a fool, if you can avoid him or her. After all, I'm not a light unto the nations, here to impart wisdom and knowledge to the masses. Amos
                                >
                                > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "Amos" <vivepablo@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos
                                > >
                                > > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                                > > >
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                                > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                                > > >
                                > > > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@>
                                > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                                > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > 
                                > > >
                                > > > Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:
                                > > >
                                > > > â€Å"In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]
                                > > >
                                > > > By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                                > > >
                                > > > Peter
                                > > >
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                                > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                > > > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                                > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                                > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                                > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > 
                                > > >
                                > > > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                                > > > Peter
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                                > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                                > > >
                                > > > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                > > > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                                > > > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                                > > > Best,
                                > > > Peter
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >

                              • peter the Cynic
                                That is not to say, of course. that there were not exceptional Romans; Enfield, again: The philosophy of the Old Academy, as it was revived and corrected by
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 5 4:41 AM
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  That is not to say, of course. that there were not exceptional Romans; Enfield, again:

                                  ‘The philosophy of the Old Academy, as it was revived and corrected by Antiochus, found many advocates at Rome. Among these, besides Lucullus, was the illustrious defender of Roman liberty, Marcus Brutus. Plutarch says of him, that there was no Greek philosopher, on whom he did not attend, nor any sect with whose tenets he was not conversant, but that he, for the most part, embraced the doctrine of Plato, and followed the Old, rather than the New or Middle Academy; and on this account, was a great admirer of Antiochus the Ascalonite, and admitted his brother Aristo into his confidence. Cicero relates the same, and adds, that “Brutus, excelling in every kind of merit, so successfully transplanted the Greek philosophy into the Latin tongue, as to render it almost unnecessary to have recourse to the original, in order to gain a competent knowledge of the subject.” Notwithstanding his civil and military engagements, he wrote treatises, on Virtue, on Patience, and on the Offices of Life; which, though in point of style concise even to abruptness, contained an excellent summary of ethics, framed partly from the doctrines of Plato, and partly from those of the stoical school: for Brutus, after his master Antiochus, was disposed to favour the union of these two sects.’

                                  The available options for the Romans, sect-wise, were extensive; apparently, even the Academy was divided into three philosophical schools; and these combined with others -- their outlines blurred – yet, still room for purists; but, all the same, no radical departures, no new inventions sect-wise. (The school of the Sextii!) 

                                  Isn’t the situation a bit like Roman art – painting, sculpture, and architecture: an inferior version in most cases to the Greek? Or am I just biased?

                                  And yet out of that somewhat chaotic melee of styles, in which Cicero is perhaps one major epitome, Seneca another, can emerge, somehow, a revolutionary, an Epictetus; and a Demonax; and perhaps even a Peregrinus Proteus.  

                                  Peter

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 11:11 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                                   

                                  But I'm in agreement with you on this. It was only after philosophy got transplanted to Rome that the situation changed from (how best to describe it?) the 'know thyself' approach of the Greeks, say -- (the early Cynic-Stoic, Zeno of Citium, for example, went from one master to another, one text to another, searching out doctrines matching / reflecting / in keeping with his own character, preferences, aspirations, etc.,) -- to the 'choose between these limited options' approach of the Romans. Lucian's send-up of the situation in his 'Socratic' dialogue, the Hermotimus, makes the point. And according to Enfield (after Brucker): "Every one [of the Romans] found, in the doctrines of some one of the Grecian sects, tenets which suited his own disposition and situation; and therefore no one thought it necessary to attempt farther discoveries or improvements in philosophy." (Yes, of course, Enfield's early C19th opinion is historically of interest, but I believe the substance of his words still hold good even today -- besides, I believe his is arguably the definitive 'early modern' secondary source: the source that spawned a thousand lesser histories.) So, yes, I agree with you, Amos.
                                  Peter
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Amos
                                  Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 1:03 AM
                                  Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                                   

                                  In the Phaedrus and in the 7th Letter Plato writes against writing (which is strange), in favor maybe of oral tradition and as I recall, in favor of people thinking through their own problems and solutions and not relying on books. That's what I mean when I include myself among the wise: as I tried to say in the ISF, to each his own path, and the wise man (or woman) is he or she who discovers who he is and where he is going, if anywhere, in life. No one can discover that for you, and what I discover about myself is first of all, very difficult to communicate in words and second,
                                  generally, has little to do with anyone else's life, if only because all of us have to work our way out through that individual maze in which our upbringings and childhood, all of them so different, place us. Most people never even realize that they're in that maze (comparable to Plato's cave), and probably, none of us, even those who become aware of it, make our way out to the light, which is only a light in metaphoric terms. Best, Amos

                                  --- In stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Ha! I especially like the 'me'!
                                  > I think Mohammed was illiterate too; but he must have had a phenomenal memory to be able to recall Allah's words -- especially where those long passages in the Koran are concerned -- to then dictate them to the scribes that put the Koran together.
                                  > I think Socrates discuss the subject of words (writing) and memory (oral tradition) in the Phaedrus.
                                  > P.
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Amos
                                  > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:33 PM
                                  > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don't bother to answer a fool, if you can avoid him or her. After all, I'm not a light unto the nations, here to impart wisdom and knowledge to the masses. Amos
                                  >
                                  > --- In stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com, "Amos" <vivepablo@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                  > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap. com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                  > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@>
                                  > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > 
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Speaking of books and libraries doesn’t this sound like heaven:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > â€Å"In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.” [Enfield.]
                                  > > >
                                  > > > By the way, ‘science’, in these older texts always means ‘knowledge’. You know, perhaps there is a ‘library’ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isn’t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Peter
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                  > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                  > > > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                                  > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                  > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                  > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > 
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                                  > > > Peter
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                  > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                  > > > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                  > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                                  > > > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                                  > > > Best,
                                  > > > Peter
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >

                                • Amos
                                  In every culture or at least in every sophisticated culture, such as Rome, there are people who follow the road map and people who although they may try to
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 5 8:12 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In every culture or at least in every sophisticated culture, such as Rome, there are people who follow the road map and people who although they may try to use the rule book and the road maps, find that neither the rule book nor the road maps are useful guides. What is interesting is that the Greeks placed a high value on creative individuals, those who stray from the maps, while the Romans apparently didn't. In my experience, I always prefer to follow the map (it's easier and it forms a bond of communion with others), but something inside me always subverts my faith in maps and rule books. Best, Amos

                                    --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > That is not to say, of course. that there were not exceptional Romans; Enfield, again:
                                    >
                                    > 'The philosophy of the Old Academy, as it was revived and corrected by Antiochus, found many advocates at Rome. Among these, besides Lucullus, was the illustrious defender of Roman liberty, Marcus Brutus. Plutarch says of him, that there was no Greek philosopher, on whom he did not attend, nor any sect with whose tenets he was not conversant, but that he, for the most part, embraced the doctrine of Plato, and followed the Old, rather than the New or Middle Academy; and on this account, was a great admirer of Antiochus the Ascalonite, and admitted his brother Aristo into his confidence. Cicero relates the same, and adds, that "Brutus, excelling in every kind of merit, so successfully transplanted the Greek philosophy into the Latin tongue, as to render it almost unnecessary to have recourse to the original, in order to gain a competent knowledge of the subject." Notwithstanding his civil and military engagements, he wrote treatises, on Virtue, on Patience, and on the Offices of Life; which, though in point of style concise even to abruptness, contained an excellent summary of ethics, framed partly from the doctrines of Plato, and partly from those of the stoical school: for Brutus, after his master Antiochus, was disposed to favour the union of these two sects.'
                                    >
                                    > The available options for the Romans, sect-wise, were extensive; apparently, even the Academy was divided into three philosophical schools; and these combined with others -- their outlines blurred - yet, still room for purists; but, all the same, no radical departures, no new inventions sect-wise. (The school of the Sextii!)
                                    >
                                    > Isn't the situation a bit like Roman art - painting, sculpture, and architecture: an inferior version in most cases to the Greek? Or am I just biased?
                                    >
                                    > And yet out of that somewhat chaotic melee of styles, in which Cicero is perhaps one major epitome, Seneca another, can emerge, somehow, a revolutionary, an Epictetus; and a Demonax; and perhaps even a Peregrinus Proteus.
                                    >
                                    > Peter
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: peter the Cynic
                                    > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 11:11 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > But I'm in agreement with you on this. It was only after philosophy got transplanted to Rome that the situation changed from (how best to describe it?) the 'know thyself' approach of the Greeks, say -- (the early Cynic-Stoic, Zeno of Citium, for example, went from one master to another, one text to another, searching out doctrines matching / reflecting / in keeping with his own character, preferences, aspirations, etc.,) -- to the 'choose between these limited options' approach of the Romans. Lucian's send-up of the situation in his 'Socratic' dialogue, the Hermotimus, makes the point. And according to Enfield (after Brucker): "Every one [of the Romans] found, in the doctrines of some one of the Grecian sects, tenets which suited his own disposition and situation; and therefore no one thought it necessary to attempt farther discoveries or improvements in philosophy." (Yes, of course, Enfield's early C19th opinion is historically of interest, but I believe the substance of his words still hold good even today -- besides, I believe his is arguably the definitive 'early modern' secondary source: the source that spawned a thousand lesser histories.) So, yes, I agree with you, Amos.
                                    > Peter
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Amos
                                    > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 1:03 AM
                                    > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > In the Phaedrus and in the 7th Letter Plato writes against writing (which is strange), in favor maybe of oral tradition and as I recall, in favor of people thinking through their own problems and solutions and not relying on books. That's what I mean when I include myself among the wise: as I tried to say in the ISF, to each his own path, and the wise man (or woman) is he or she who discovers who he is and where he is going, if anywhere, in life. No one can discover that for you, and what I discover about myself is first of all, very difficult to communicate in words and second,
                                    > generally, has little to do with anyone else's life, if only because all of us have to work our way out through that individual maze in which our upbringings and childhood, all of them so different, place us. Most people never even realize that they're in that maze (comparable to Plato's cave), and probably, none of us, even those who become aware of it, make our way out to the light, which is only a light in metaphoric terms. Best, Amos
                                    >
                                    > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Ha! I especially like the 'me'!
                                    > > I think Mohammed was illiterate too; but he must have had a phenomenal memory to be able to recall Allah's words -- especially where those long passages in the Koran are concerned -- to then dictate them to the scribes that put the Koran together.
                                    > > I think Socrates discuss the subject of words (writing) and memory (oral tradition) in the Phaedrus.
                                    > > P.
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Amos
                                    > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:33 PM
                                    > > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don't bother to answer a fool, if you can avoid him or her. After all, I'm not a light unto the nations, here to impart wisdom and knowledge to the masses. Amos
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "Amos" <vivepablo@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                    > > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@>
                                    > > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > 
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Speaking of books and libraries doesnââ,¬â"¢t this sound like heaven:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ââ,¬Å"In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.ââ,¬Â [Enfield.]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > By the way, ââ,¬Ëoscienceââ,¬â"¢, in these older texts always means ââ,¬Ëoknowledgeââ,¬â"¢. You know, perhaps there is a ââ,¬Ëolibraryââ,¬â"¢ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isnââ,¬â"¢t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Peter
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                    > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                                    > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                    > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > 
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                                    > > > > Peter
                                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                    > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > > > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                    > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                                    > > > > Best,
                                    > > > > Peter
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • peter the Cynic
                                    I tend to work the other way round -- whatever materials are available I play with them, try them in various ways, juxtapose A against B against C -- see what
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 5 8:48 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I tend to work the other way round -- whatever materials are available I play with them, try them in various ways, juxtapose A against B against C -- see what happens: process-orientated I think, rather than final product. But then I may overshoot the target, the destination; -- but isn't the journey what it's all about rather than the arriving some place? Does that make sense?
                                      Whatever, I have to go out into the garden and polytunnel now, for a while at least, check the tomatoes and peppers, and what-not.
                                      Peter
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Amos
                                      Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 4:12 PM
                                      Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                                       

                                      In every culture or at least in every sophisticated culture, such as Rome, there are people who follow the road map and people who although they may try to use the rule book and the road maps, find that neither the rule book nor the road maps are useful guides. What is interesting is that the Greeks placed a high value on creative individuals, those who stray from the maps, while the Romans apparently didn't. In my experience, I always prefer to follow the map (it's easier and it forms a bond of communion with others), but something inside me always subverts my faith in maps and rule books. Best, Amos

                                      --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > That is not to say, of course. that there were not exceptional Romans; Enfield, again:
                                      >
                                      > 'The philosophy of the Old Academy, as it was revived and corrected by Antiochus, found many advocates at Rome. Among these, besides Lucullus, was the illustrious defender of Roman liberty, Marcus Brutus. Plutarch says of him, that there was no Greek philosopher, on whom he did not attend, nor any sect with whose tenets he was not conversant, but that he, for the most part, embraced the doctrine of Plato, and followed the Old, rather than the New or Middle Academy; and on this account, was a great admirer of Antiochus the Ascalonite, and admitted his brother Aristo into his confidence. Cicero relates the same, and adds, that "Brutus, excelling in every kind of merit, so successfully transplanted the Greek philosophy into the Latin tongue, as to render it almost unnecessary to have recourse to the original, in order to gain a competent knowledge of the subject." Notwithstanding his civil and military engagements, he wrote treatises, on Virtue, on Patience, and on the Offices of Life; which, though in point of style concise even to abruptness, contained an excellent summary of ethics, framed partly from the doctrines of Plato, and partly from those of the stoical school: for Brutus, after his master Antiochus, was disposed to favour the union of these two sects.'
                                      >
                                      > The available options for the Romans, sect-wise, were extensive; apparently, even the Academy was divided into three philosophical schools; and these combined with others -- their outlines blurred - yet, still room for purists; but, all the same, no radical departures, no new inventions sect-wise. (The school of the Sextii!)
                                      >
                                      > Isn't the situation a bit like Roman art - painting, sculpture, and architecture: an inferior version in most cases to the Greek? Or am I just biased?
                                      >
                                      > And yet out of that somewhat chaotic melee of styles, in which Cicero is perhaps one major epitome, Seneca another, can emerge, somehow, a revolutionary, an Epictetus; and a Demonax; and perhaps even a Peregrinus Proteus.
                                      >
                                      > Peter
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: peter the Cynic
                                      > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 11:11 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > But I'm in agreement with you on this. It was only after philosophy got transplanted to Rome that the situation changed from (how best to describe it?) the 'know thyself' approach of the Greeks, say -- (the early Cynic-Stoic, Zeno of Citium, for example, went from one master to another, one text to another, searching out doctrines matching / reflecting / in keeping with his own character, preferences, aspirations, etc.,) -- to the 'choose between these limited options' approach of the Romans. Lucian's send-up of the situation in his 'Socratic' dialogue, the Hermotimus, makes the point. And according to Enfield (after Brucker): "Every one [of the Romans] found, in the doctrines of some one of the Grecian sects, tenets which suited his own disposition and situation; and therefore no one thought it necessary to attempt farther discoveries or improvements in philosophy." (Yes, of course, Enfield's early C19th opinion is historically of interest, but I believe the substance of his words still hold good even today -- besides, I believe his is arguably the definitive 'early modern' secondary source: the source that spawned a thousand lesser histories.) So, yes, I agree with you, Amos.
                                      > Peter
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Amos
                                      > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 1:03 AM
                                      > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > In the Phaedrus and in the 7th Letter Plato writes against writing (which is strange), in favor maybe of oral tradition and as I recall, in favor of people thinking through their own problems and solutions and not relying on books. That's what I mean when I include myself among the wise: as I tried to say in the ISF, to each his own path, and the wise man (or woman) is he or she who discovers who he is and where he is going, if anywhere, in life. No one can discover that for you, and what I discover about myself is first of all, very difficult to communicate in words and second,
                                      > generally, has little to do with anyone else's life, if only because all of us have to work our way out through that individual maze in which our upbringings and childhood, all of them so different, place us. Most people never even realize that they're in that maze (comparable to Plato's cave), and probably, none of us, even those who become aware of it, make our way out to the light, which is only a light in metaphoric terms. Best, Amos
                                      >
                                      > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Ha! I especially like the 'me'!
                                      > > I think Mohammed was illiterate too; but he must have had a phenomenal memory to be able to recall Allah's words -- especially where those long passages in the Koran are concerned -- to then dictate them to the scribes that put the Koran together.
                                      > > I think Socrates discuss the subject of words (writing) and memory (oral tradition) in the Phaedrus.
                                      > > P.
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Amos
                                      > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:33 PM
                                      > > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don't bother to answer a fool, if you can avoid him or her. After all, I'm not a light unto the nations, here to impart wisdom and knowledge to the masses. Amos
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "Amos" <vivepablo@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                      > > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                                      > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@>
                                      > > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                                      > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > 
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Speaking of books and libraries doesnââ,¬â"¢t this sound like heaven:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ââ,¬Å"In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.ââ,¬Â [Enfield.]
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > By the way, ââ,¬Ëoscienceââ,¬â"¢, in these older texts always means ââ,¬Ëoknowledgeââ,¬â"¢. You know, perhaps there is a ââ,¬Ëolibraryââ,¬â"¢ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isnââ,¬â"¢t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Peter
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                      > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                                      > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > > > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                                      > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                                      > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                      > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                                      > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > 
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                                      > > > > Peter
                                      > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                      > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                                      > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > > > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                      > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                                      > > > > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                                      > > > > Best,
                                      > > > > Peter
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >

                                    • peter the Cynic
                                      It might also have something to do with what every gardener will tell you when asked, namely, that the fruit and vegetables grown in your own patch of ground
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 5 8:31 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        It might also have something to do with what every gardener will tell you when asked, namely, that the fruit and vegetables grown in your own patch of ground are always fresher and tastier than the stuff bought from the shop.
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Amos
                                        Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 4:12 PM
                                        Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                                         

                                        In every culture or at least in every sophisticated culture, such as Rome, there are people who follow the road map and people who although they may try to use the rule book and the road maps, find that neither the rule book nor the road maps are useful guides. What is interesting is that the Greeks placed a high value on creative individuals, those who stray from the maps, while the Romans apparently didn't. In my experience, I always prefer to follow the map (it's easier and it forms a bond of communion with others), but something inside me always subverts my faith in maps and rule books. Best, Amos

                                        --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > That is not to say, of course. that there were not exceptional Romans; Enfield, again:
                                        >
                                        > 'The philosophy of the Old Academy, as it was revived and corrected by Antiochus, found many advocates at Rome. Among these, besides Lucullus, was the illustrious defender of Roman liberty, Marcus Brutus. Plutarch says of him, that there was no Greek philosopher, on whom he did not attend, nor any sect with whose tenets he was not conversant, but that he, for the most part, embraced the doctrine of Plato, and followed the Old, rather than the New or Middle Academy; and on this account, was a great admirer of Antiochus the Ascalonite, and admitted his brother Aristo into his confidence. Cicero relates the same, and adds, that "Brutus, excelling in every kind of merit, so successfully transplanted the Greek philosophy into the Latin tongue, as to render it almost unnecessary to have recourse to the original, in order to gain a competent knowledge of the subject." Notwithstanding his civil and military engagements, he wrote treatises, on Virtue, on Patience, and on the Offices of Life; which, though in point of style concise even to abruptness, contained an excellent summary of ethics, framed partly from the doctrines of Plato, and partly from those of the stoical school: for Brutus, after his master Antiochus, was disposed to favour the union of these two sects.'
                                        >
                                        > The available options for the Romans, sect-wise, were extensive; apparently, even the Academy was divided into three philosophical schools; and these combined with others -- their outlines blurred - yet, still room for purists; but, all the same, no radical departures, no new inventions sect-wise. (The school of the Sextii!)
                                        >
                                        > Isn't the situation a bit like Roman art - painting, sculpture, and architecture: an inferior version in most cases to the Greek? Or am I just biased?
                                        >
                                        > And yet out of that somewhat chaotic melee of styles, in which Cicero is perhaps one major epitome, Seneca another, can emerge, somehow, a revolutionary, an Epictetus; and a Demonax; and perhaps even a Peregrinus Proteus.
                                        >
                                        > Peter
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: peter the Cynic
                                        > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 11:11 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > But I'm in agreement with you on this. It was only after philosophy got transplanted to Rome that the situation changed from (how best to describe it?) the 'know thyself' approach of the Greeks, say -- (the early Cynic-Stoic, Zeno of Citium, for example, went from one master to another, one text to another, searching out doctrines matching / reflecting / in keeping with his own character, preferences, aspirations, etc.,) -- to the 'choose between these limited options' approach of the Romans. Lucian's send-up of the situation in his 'Socratic' dialogue, the Hermotimus, makes the point. And according to Enfield (after Brucker): "Every one [of the Romans] found, in the doctrines of some one of the Grecian sects, tenets which suited his own disposition and situation; and therefore no one thought it necessary to attempt farther discoveries or improvements in philosophy." (Yes, of course, Enfield's early C19th opinion is historically of interest, but I believe the substance of his words still hold good even today -- besides, I believe his is arguably the definitive 'early modern' secondary source: the source that spawned a thousand lesser histories.) So, yes, I agree with you, Amos.
                                        > Peter
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: Amos
                                        > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 1:03 AM
                                        > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In the Phaedrus and in the 7th Letter Plato writes against writing (which is strange), in favor maybe of oral tradition and as I recall, in favor of people thinking through their own problems and solutions and not relying on books. That's what I mean when I include myself among the wise: as I tried to say in the ISF, to each his own path, and the wise man (or woman) is he or she who discovers who he is and where he is going, if anywhere, in life. No one can discover that for you, and what I discover about myself is first of all, very difficult to communicate in words and second,
                                        > generally, has little to do with anyone else's life, if only because all of us have to work our way out through that individual maze in which our upbringings and childhood, all of them so different, place us. Most people never even realize that they're in that maze (comparable to Plato's cave), and probably, none of us, even those who become aware of it, make our way out to the light, which is only a light in metaphoric terms. Best, Amos
                                        >
                                        > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Ha! I especially like the 'me'!
                                        > > I think Mohammed was illiterate too; but he must have had a phenomenal memory to be able to recall Allah's words -- especially where those long passages in the Koran are concerned -- to then dictate them to the scribes that put the Koran together.
                                        > > I think Socrates discuss the subject of words (writing) and memory (oral tradition) in the Phaedrus.
                                        > > P.
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Amos
                                        > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 11:33 PM
                                        > > Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I see that the Bible actually says: answer a fool according to his folly. Maybe I coined my own proverb: let a fool persist in his folly. And don't bother to answer a fool, if you can avoid him or her. After all, I'm not a light unto the nations, here to impart wisdom and knowledge to the masses. Amos
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "Amos" <vivepablo@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Wise men who never wrote anything: Buddha, Homer (he was illiterate), me. Actually, for obvious reasons, wise men who never write anything don't tend to be remembered. There certainly are wise men (and women) who don't even say anything, who keep their wisdom to themselves: as the Bible says, let a fool persist in his folly. In fact, of all the lines in the Bible, that one made the greatest impression on me when I heard it as a child, and it still makes sense. A longer, much longer list would be needed for the names of all the idiots who have written books. Amos
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com, "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Not only the Bible but also Marcus Aurelius -- specifically in relation to books; and others too. But what I always wanted was a list of the wise men / women who never wrote anything: there must be scores of them but I can only think of a few: Jesus, obviously, Socrates another, Epictetus yet another, ??Apollonius of Tyana I think, offhand, who else, Pyrrho? Krishna?? Does anybody know of a list to that effect?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                        > > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 10:39 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > That does sound wonderful, Peter.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I was just thinking that the Bible discourages hoarding, so I alleviated some of my book guilt by posting a bunch of the extra books to that great internet library PaperBackSwap.com where people who want them can claim them :-)
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        > > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@>
                                        > > > > To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 4:51:56 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > 
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Speaking of books and libraries doesnââ,¬â"¢t this sound like heaven:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ââ,¬Å"In order to promote a general taste for learning and philosophy, Lucullus made a large collection of valuable books, and erected a library, with galleries and schools adjoining, to which he invited learned men of all descriptions, and which particularly afforded a welcome retreat to those Greeks who, at this time, sought in Rome an asylum from the tumults of war. This place became the daily resort of men of letters, where every one enjoyed the benefit of reading or conversation, as best suited his taste. Lucullus himself frequently appeared among his friends (for by this noble act of public munificence he had made all the lovers of science and literature his friends) and conversed with them in a manner which showed him to be, not only a patron of philosophers, but himself a philosopher. Others were stimulated, by this example, to afford countenance and protection, in similar ways, to learning of every kind; so that this period may be considered as the first age of philosophy in Rome.ââ,¬Â [Enfield.]
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > By the way, ââ,¬Ëoscienceââ,¬â"¢, in these older texts always means ââ,¬Ëoknowledgeââ,¬â"¢. You know, perhaps there is a ââ,¬Ëolibraryââ,¬â"¢ gene in us: a latent human desire to create a library-scape in some form or other, a place of retreat from the noisy world. Isnââ,¬â"¢t the Bible after all a library complete in itself? Just a thought.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Peter
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                        > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 7:14 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > At some point I'll have as much time as reading material but right now I feel guilty because they are there, they are wonderful, and yet I'm not making as much of a dent as I'd like to.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        > > > > From: Vicki Russell <vrussell001@ yahoo.com>
                                        > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 2:02:10 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > My third bedroom is a library with overflowing shelves, there are books in the basement, there are cases of them in the attic, there are stacks all around. I've begun turning the things away and directing them toward friends!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        > > > > From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                        > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 1:22:35 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > 
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I'm interested in your remark that there is a limit to how many books a person should own -- care to elaborate, Vicki? I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, -- I've had several 'libraries' in my lifetime that I've gotten rid of at some point -- usually when they became burdensome somehow, an obstacle to thinking -- invariably in order to keep life simple, in order to keep focussed on the basics, perhaps to grow cabbages; it's all too easy to get lost in books, and to love them, and to pine for them!
                                        > > > > Peter
                                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > From: Vicki Russell
                                        > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:09 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It's also in a couple of local college libraries, I'd like to look them over. There is a limit to how many books a person should own (don't throw things at me). In the Gartner book I'd be looking to see if he strays beyond the title subject, the main one is the Sevenster book, which is available quite reasonably (if you happen to be Dutch).
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I know they are both digitized, I imagine that a person with academic credentials should be able to access them online somewhere.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        > > > > From: peter <phrygianslave@ eircom.net>
                                        > > > > To: stoic-christian@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > Sent: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:44:49 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: [stoic-christian] gartner book
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Vicki, I notice there's a couple of copies of that Gartner book you were enquiring about over at AbeBooks.
                                        > > > > Best,
                                        > > > > Peter
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >

                                      • Beatrix
                                        peter the Cynic wrote:
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 6 1:24 PM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@...> wrote:
                                          <<... every gardener will tell you when asked, namely, that the
                                          fruit and vegetables grown in your own patch of ground are always
                                          fresher and tastier than the stuff bought from the shop. >>

                                          Glad there's some fellow gardeners aboard the list.
                                          We have a batch of vegetables growing, and soon
                                          we will have some additional space for a small grove
                                          of fruit trees. Already have two old fruits trees, one
                                          nectarine, the other orange. Thinking of adding plum.
                                          apple, and perhaps another orange tree.

                                          Here in Southern California, everything grows really
                                          fast--and the "season" is mostly year-round. Aiming
                                          for at least minimal sustainability, if you will.

                                          Cheers,
                                          --Beatrix
                                        • peter the Cynic
                                          The medlar is an unusual fruit: a weird sort-of squashed apple in appearance; the tree is small and the branches have a most interesting habit (way of
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jul 6 1:56 PM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            The medlar is an unusual fruit: a weird sort-of squashed apple in appearance; the tree is small and the branches have a most interesting habit (way of growing); the most beautiful large but delicate blossom -- better than any apple or cherry (apart from the wild gean and some of the Japanese varieties) -- adorns the tree in spring.
                                            Just had some land cleared -- for a parking lot: lost an old neglected apple in the process which'll have to be replaced: mainly for the birds (and wasps!)  
                                            Unfortunately the rainy season seems to have begun here (Ireland) already; I do hope we get some more sun -- yes, I'm a bit of a worshipper of that orb. I heard many places over in the USA are having 100 degrees heat-waves.
                                            Peter
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Beatrix
                                            Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 9:24 PM
                                            Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                                             

                                            "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@...> wrote:
                                            <<... every gardener will tell you when asked, namely, that the
                                            fruit and vegetables grown in your own patch of ground are always
                                            fresher and tastier than the stuff bought from the shop. >>

                                            Glad there's some fellow gardeners aboard the list.
                                            We have a batch of vegetables growing, and soon
                                            we will have some additional space for a small grove
                                            of fruit trees. Already have two old fruits trees, one
                                            nectarine, the other orange. Thinking of adding plum.
                                            apple, and perhaps another orange tree.

                                            Here in Southern California, everything grows really
                                            fast--and the "season" is mostly year-round. Aiming
                                            for at least minimal sustainability, if you will.

                                            Cheers,
                                            --Beatrix

                                          • Vicki Russell
                                            103 today, 100 in the shade, I don t seem to have much luck growing fruit, the blueberries died a dreadful death, the cherries are questionable (this is their
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jul 6 6:30 PM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              103 today, 100 in the shade, I don't seem to have much luck growing fruit, the blueberries died a dreadful death, the cherries are questionable (this is their first year), wild strawberries have taken over everywhere (so I guess I should wave a white flag and plant strawberries).

                                              The tomatoes, peppers and pumpkins are doing well though :-)



                                              From: peter the Cynic <phrygianslave@...>
                                              To: stoic-christian@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010 4:56:27 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                                               

                                              The medlar is an unusual fruit: a weird sort-of squashed apple in appearance; the tree is small and the branches have a most interesting habit (way of growing); the most beautiful large but delicate blossom -- better than any apple or cherry (apart from the wild gean and some of the Japanese varieties) -- adorns the tree in spring.
                                              Just had some land cleared -- for a parking lot: lost an old neglected apple in the process which'll have to be replaced: mainly for the birds (and wasps!)  
                                              Unfortunately the rainy season seems to have begun here (Ireland) already; I do hope we get some more sun -- yes, I'm a bit of a worshipper of that orb. I heard many places over in the USA are having 100 degrees heat-waves.
                                              Peter
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Beatrix
                                              Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 9:24 PM
                                              Subject: [stoic-christian] Re: gartner book

                                               

                                              "peter the Cynic" <phrygianslave@ ...> wrote:
                                              <<... every gardener will tell you when asked, namely, that the
                                              fruit and vegetables grown in your own patch of ground are always
                                              fresher and tastier than the stuff bought from the shop. >>

                                              Glad there's some fellow gardeners aboard the list.
                                              We have a batch of vegetables growing, and soon
                                              we will have some additional space for a small grove
                                              of fruit trees. Already have two old fruits trees, one
                                              nectarine, the other orange. Thinking of adding plum.
                                              apple, and perhaps another orange tree.

                                              Here in Southern California, everything grows really
                                              fast--and the "season" is mostly year-round. Aiming
                                              for at least minimal sustainability, if you will.

                                              Cheers,
                                              --Beatrix

                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.