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3.0 Update Sequence

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  • empire_ah
    I just want to verify the correct processing sequence during an update in 3.0. What I have is: 1) Tech growth 2) Diplomacy 3) Population and resources 4) Build
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 2, 2007
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      I just want to verify the correct processing sequence during an
      update in 3.0. What I have is:

      1) Tech growth
      2) Diplomacy
      3) Population and resources
      4) Build ships, Cloak / Uncloak, Morph
      5) Combat
      6) Minefields explode
      7) Create new planets
      8) Stargates
      9) Jumpgates
      10) Nuke planets
      11) Invade
      12) Colonize
      13) Terraform
      14) Neers

      Any changes?
    • Damascus_1999
      Shouldn t the first few be rearranged We definitely don t use the resources from that turn in determining how strong our ships are. Something like 1) tech and
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 2, 2007
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        Shouldn't the first few be rearranged

        We definitely don't use the resources from that turn in determining
        how strong our ships are.

        Something like
        1) tech and population growth
        2) build, uncoak, morph
        3) combat
        4) diplomacy
        5) resources
        ...

        --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, empire_ah <no_reply@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I just want to verify the correct processing sequence during an
        > update in 3.0. What I have is:
        >
        > 1) Tech growth
        > 2) Diplomacy
        > 3) Population and resources
        > 4) Build ships, Cloak / Uncloak, Morph
        > 5) Combat
        > 6) Minefields explode
        > 7) Create new planets
        > 8) Stargates
        > 9) Jumpgates
        > 10) Nuke planets
        > 11) Invade
        > 12) Colonize
        > 13) Terraform
        > 14) Neers
        >
        > Any changes?
        >
      • lugdunum_sc
        ... Brad, the only thing you had missed out was annihilation (what doomsdays doom), which comes between nuking and invading. It s a little bit more complex
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 2, 2007
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          --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, empire_ah <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > I just want to verify the correct processing sequence during an
          > update in 3.0.

          Brad, the only thing you had missed out was annihilation (what
          doomsdays doom), which comes between nuking and invading.

          It's a little bit more complex than just doing the list of things in
          order, though.


          1) for each empire
          1.a) add tech-devel to tech
          1.b) update diplomatic status with each other empire
          1.c) for each planet belonging to this empire
          1.c.1) multiply population by ag_ratio (and fix up) (Note 1)
          1.d) for each ship belonging to this empire
          1.d.1) multiply ship's BR by maint_ratio (and fix up) (Note 2)
          1.d.2) process build/dismantle, cloak/uncloak, morph and movement orders
          1.d.3) record, but do not yet process, the special actions ordered for
          this ship (Note 3)

          2) combat (a research paper in itself)

          3) minefields (explode or get swept)

          4) process the recorded special actions of any ships that survived
          combat and mine explosion
          4.a) planet building
          4.b) stargating
          4.c) jumpgating
          4.d) nuking (Note 4)
          4.e) annihilation (Note 4)
          4.f) invasion (Note 4)
          4.g) colonization
          4.h) terraforming
          4.i) engineering (closing then opening)

          5) for each empire, check for other forms of death
          5.a) ruins
          5.b) surrenders
          5.c) calculate new ratios (maint, fuel, ag, tech_devel) to be used
          next update.

          Notes:

          1) The actual calculation is:

          pop = (int) ((float) pop * ag_ratio)+1;
          if (pop > max_pop) pop = max_pop;
          if (pop < 1) pop = 1;

          This is what Brad said when correcting me, after I'd suggested a
          ceil() function was used. It doesn't actually use floor(), but the
          effect is the same.

          2) The calculation is:

          br = br * maint_ratio;
          if (br > max_br) br = max_br;

          The maint_ratio used here has not yet been recalculated to incorporate
          the effect of the population change at 1.c.1. So Damascus is right, in
          effect, and I think it would be OK to move the population change step
          to after combat. I think it shouldn't be after minefield explosion,
          though, as it's the new population, not the old, that gets halved when
          the mine goes off.

          3) Recording the special actions includes recording *where* they were
          set. Although the ship can't order a move in the same turn that it
          orders a special action, it can be moved by a gate, so it's important
          to have the location of the action at hand when the action is
          processed, not just the location of the ship.

          This explains Greg's comment, that he thought engineering was
          processed before gating. The engineering action takes place at the
          original location of the ship, even though the gating action has
          already happened. I'm not sure whether that means the effect would be
          the same if the gating actions were moved down the order to after
          engineering.

          4) The nuking, annihilation and invasion steps include the code that
          tests to see if the target planet was a homeworld, and if so, clears
          away the dead empire's ships. Therefore, if your colonies,
          terraformers or engineers are set to act on the turn you are nuked,
          annihilated or invaded out of the game, those actions won't happen. If
          they are so set on the turn you surrender (ruin doesn't apply, I
          think), they *will* happen - if the relevent ships survive combat. Of
          course, that doesn't affect you much, but it might affect remaining
          players. You might prevent someone else from colonizing that turn, you
          might leave a sweetly terraformed planet ready for the next person to
          colonize it, and you certainly might open or close a jump in the turn
          that you surrender. However, you can't prevent the nuke action by
          surrendering.

          Hope this helps,

          Andy

          PS Brad, do you have a copy of the Pike code? Do you want one, for
          reference?
        • lugdunum_sc
          ... It would be a major change to the game if combat were executed before diplomacy changes were effected. I don t think you d like it. On our first contact,
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 2, 2007
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            --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, Damascus_1999 <no_reply@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Shouldn't the first few be rearranged
            >
            > We definitely don't use the resources from that turn in determining
            > how strong our ships are.
            >
            > Something like
            > 1) tech and population growth
            > 2) build, uncoak, morph
            > 3) combat
            > 4) diplomacy
            > 5) resources


            It would be a major change to the game if combat were executed before
            diplomacy changes were effected. I don't think you'd like it.

            On our first contact, your science and mine meet at System X,Y and
            mutually destruct. Immediately we both set to truce with each other,
            and order the fleets following behind our sciences into System X,Y.
            Would you want our fleets to fight each other next update?
          • empire_ah
            Thanks Andy. I do have the Pike code-- that is where I generated my list from. I just wanted to make sure I wasn t misreading it. ... I am pretty sure that the
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2007
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              Thanks Andy.

              I do have the Pike code-- that is where I generated my list from. I
              just wanted to make sure I wasn't misreading it.

              > The maint_ratio used here has not yet been recalculated to
              > incorporate the effect of the population change at 1.c.1. So
              > Damascus is right, in effect, and I think it would be OK to move
              > the population change step to after combat. I think it shouldn't
              > be after minefield explosion, though, as it's the new population,
              > not the old, that gets halved when the mine goes off.

              I am pretty sure that the PHP code is consistent with the Pike in
              this. And none of the ratios are recalculated until the update is
              over. I agree about the minefield thing.

              > 3) Recording the special actions includes recording *where* they
              > were set. Although the ship can't order a move in the same turn
              > that it orders a special action, it can be moved by a gate, so it's
              > important to have the location of the action at hand when the
              > action is processed, not just the location of the ship.

              And didn't this make for a bug at one point with builders?

              I've thought for a long time that ships with other orders shouldn't
              be gated. (Or perhaps even that there should be an order for entering
              a gate. This latter also offering a mechanism for being able to use
              two gates working from a single system.) No, I'm not about to make
              this change right now.

              The other orders thing wasn't a real problem before morphers. You
              couldn't nuke, annihilate, colonize, or invade your own system. You
              could have an unexpected situation with terraformers, but it wouldn't
              come up often. But now you can morph a gate anywhere these things
              *do* come up (sigh).

              Would you agree that the effect is that gates actually occur after
              everything else?


              > 4) The nuking, annihilation and invasion steps include the code that
              > tests to see if the target planet was a homeworld, and if so, clears
              > away the dead empire's ships. Therefore, if your colonies,
              > terraformers or engineers are set to act on the turn you are nuked,
              > annihilated or invaded out of the game, those actions won't happen.

              Does it also clear away the stored orders??

              -Ah
            • Greg Nord
              (Just a little housekeeping/explaination) ... were ... important ... be ... Greg s comment was actually in a private email to Andy, and was based on my
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 2, 2007
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                (Just a little housekeeping/explaination)

                --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, lugdunum_sc <no_reply@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > 3) Recording the special actions includes recording *where* they
                were
                > set. Although the ship can't order a move in the same turn that it
                > orders a special action, it can be moved by a gate, so it's
                important
                > to have the location of the action at hand when the action is
                > processed, not just the location of the ship.
                >
                > This explains Greg's comment, that he thought engineering was
                > processed before gating. The engineering action takes place at the
                > original location of the ship, even though the gating action has
                > already happened. I'm not sure whether that means the effect would
                be
                > the same if the gating actions were moved down the order to after
                > engineering.

                "Greg's comment" was actually in a private email to Andy, and was
                based on my erroneous idea about the sequence of special actions.
                See, i know that i can set an engineer to open/close a link at the
                gate that it's at, and that special action will occur AND the
                engineer will be gated away also. i assumed that meant that the
                special action of engineers occurred before gating, but through
                Andy's explaination, i now understand that isn't the case.

                And...

                It snows at lot in Minneapolis. Most people know that. But did you
                know that it snows more in the Grand Canyon?
              • Damascus_1999
                ... determining ... before ... D oh, you re right. Still, after build.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 3, 2007
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                  --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, lugdunum_sc <no_reply@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, Damascus_1999 <no_reply@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Shouldn't the first few be rearranged
                  > >
                  > > We definitely don't use the resources from that turn in
                  determining
                  > > how strong our ships are.
                  > >
                  > > Something like
                  > > 1) tech and population growth
                  > > 2) build, uncoak, morph
                  > > 3) combat
                  > > 4) diplomacy
                  > > 5) resources
                  >
                  >
                  > It would be a major change to the game if combat were executed
                  before
                  > diplomacy changes were effected. I don't think you'd like it.
                  >
                  > On our first contact, your science and mine meet at System X,Y and
                  > mutually destruct. Immediately we both set to truce with each other,
                  > and order the fleets following behind our sciences into System X,Y.
                  > Would you want our fleets to fight each other next update?

                  D'oh, you're right. Still, after build.
                • Christopher Priest
                  Brad said ... Does this include movement orders at this position in the sequence, as stated in a later post? ...
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 4, 2007
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                    Brad said
                    >4) Build ships, Cloak / Uncloak, Morph
                    Does this include movement orders at this position in the sequence, as stated
                    in a later post?

                    > 1.d.2) process build/dismantle, cloak/uncloak, morph and movement orders


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                  • sc_lucky
                    As far as I remember there was a bug in Iceberg when the homeworld was nuked. In such a case all ships were dismantled , means if you have other ships on
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 8, 2007
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                      As far as I remember there was a "bug" in Iceberg when the homeworld
                      was nuked. In such a case all ships were "dismantled", means if you
                      have other ships on other planets involved in fights, they disapeared
                      without fighting in that turn. This in not nice for your friends. Even
                      the foes ships on the home did not suffer (still full BR although the
                      dying emp build defenders).

                      What I still wonder is in which sequence homeworlds are nuked,
                      especially if two emps nuke each others. One of the both survives but
                      which one? Is this really randomly (if not it should be done so)?

                      We just had such a situation in a Universal Domination where Lethal
                      Injection and Colonizer nuked each others. LI survived.

                      Moreover is this a good behavior at all? Alternatively both are nuked.
                      Both gets one nuke and one nuked point. In a grudge it should count
                      like a draw (hope that we count the draws in V4). In a multiplayer
                      game, are out of the game.


                      --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, lugdunum_sc <no_reply@...>
                      wrote:

                      > 4) The nuking, annihilation and invasion steps include the code that
                      > tests to see if the target planet was a homeworld, and if so, clears
                      > away the dead empire's ships. Therefore, if your colonies,
                      > terraformers or engineers are set to act on the turn you are nuked,
                      > annihilated or invaded out of the game, those actions won't happen. If
                      > they are so set on the turn you surrender (ruin doesn't apply, I
                      > think), they *will* happen - if the relevent ships survive combat. Of
                      > course, that doesn't affect you much, but it might affect remaining
                      > players. You might prevent someone else from colonizing that turn, you
                      > might leave a sweetly terraformed planet ready for the next person to
                      > colonize it, and you certainly might open or close a jump in the turn
                      > that you surrender. However, you can't prevent the nuke action by
                      > surrendering.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps,
                      >
                      > Andy
                      >
                      > PS Brad, do you have a copy of the Pike code? Do you want one, for
                      > reference?
                      >
                    • empire_ah
                      ... I think this is fixed, but I will double check. ... At one point the nuke always went to the first built surviving ship. (That is, of all the ships set to
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 9, 2007
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                        > As far as I remember there was a "bug" in Iceberg when the homeworld
                        > was nuked.

                        I think this is fixed, but I will double check.

                        >
                        > What I still wonder is in which sequence homeworlds are nuked,
                        > especially if two emps nuke each others. One of the both survives
                        > but which one? Is this really randomly (if not it should be done
                        > so)?

                        At one point the nuke always went to the first built surviving ship.
                        (That is, of all the ships set to nuk, the first one built is the one
                        that would nuke.) So that would be the empire that survived. Andy
                        will know if that is still the case.

                        Iceberg explicitly randomized the nuking ship selection, but I
                        believe there was still a database sequencing problem that prevented
                        the winner from being totally random.

                        SC 4.0 just lets the two losers nuke each other out. And it doesn't
                        care if there is no winner.

                        > Both gets one nuke and one nuked point.

                        I believe that this is indeed the scoring.


                        -Ah
                      • Paul
                        Good question. At one time, the first to End Turn got the nuke. I liked that but it was changed. I know you can nuke and surrender. There was a bug with
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 9, 2007
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                          Good question. At one time, the first to End Turn got the nuke. I
                          liked that but it was changed. I know you can nuke and surrender.
                          There was a bug with that at one time but I think it has been fixed.
                          But I would like to know if two empires set to nuke HWs, what happens?



                          --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, sc_lucky <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > As far as I remember there was a "bug" in Iceberg when the homeworld
                          > was nuked. In such a case all ships were "dismantled", means if you
                          > have other ships on other planets involved in fights, they disapeared
                          > without fighting in that turn. This in not nice for your friends. Even
                          > the foes ships on the home did not suffer (still full BR although the
                          > dying emp build defenders).
                          >
                          > What I still wonder is in which sequence homeworlds are nuked,
                          > especially if two emps nuke each others. One of the both survives but
                          > which one? Is this really randomly (if not it should be done so)?
                          >
                          > We just had such a situation in a Universal Domination where Lethal
                          > Injection and Colonizer nuked each others. LI survived.
                          >
                          > Moreover is this a good behavior at all? Alternatively both are nuked.
                          > Both gets one nuke and one nuked point. In a grudge it should count
                          > like a draw (hope that we count the draws in V4). In a multiplayer
                          > game, are out of the game.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, lugdunum_sc <no_reply@>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > > 4) The nuking, annihilation and invasion steps include the code that
                          > > tests to see if the target planet was a homeworld, and if so, clears
                          > > away the dead empire's ships. Therefore, if your colonies,
                          > > terraformers or engineers are set to act on the turn you are nuked,
                          > > annihilated or invaded out of the game, those actions won't happen. If
                          > > they are so set on the turn you surrender (ruin doesn't apply, I
                          > > think), they *will* happen - if the relevent ships survive combat. Of
                          > > course, that doesn't affect you much, but it might affect remaining
                          > > players. You might prevent someone else from colonizing that turn, you
                          > > might leave a sweetly terraformed planet ready for the next person to
                          > > colonize it, and you certainly might open or close a jump in the turn
                          > > that you surrender. However, you can't prevent the nuke action by
                          > > surrendering.
                          > >
                          > > Hope this helps,
                          > >
                          > > Andy
                          > >
                          > > PS Brad, do you have a copy of the Pike code? Do you want one, for
                          > > reference?
                          > >
                          >
                        • tyouth
                          Andy, After reading 4d. and the note 4 below I thought there was a good chance that an empire that was being being nuked would not have his ship-orders for
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 16, 2007
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                            Andy,
                            After reading 4d. and the "note 4" below I thought there was a
                            good chance that an empire that was being being nuked would not have
                            his ship-orders for nuking carried out (just as engineer orders,
                            etc. are not carried out). Wishful thinking I guess: I just traded
                            my colony for Lafrog's HW in Doom's RX 39 (you had a ship there,
                            btw).

                            An inconsistency, it seems, with respect to orders being carried
                            out. I'm not concerned about that but wonder if that would always
                            happen or if, in some cases, the empire is nuked out and his ships
                            won't nuke an opponents sys.




                            -- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, lugdunum_sc <no_reply@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, empire_ah <no_reply@>
                            wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I just want to verify the correct processing sequence during an
                            > > update in 3.0.
                            >
                            > Brad, the only thing you had missed out was annihilation (what
                            > doomsdays doom), which comes between nuking and invading.
                            >
                            > It's a little bit more complex than just doing the list of things in
                            > order, though.
                            >
                            >
                            > 1) for each empire
                            > 1.a) add tech-devel to tech
                            > 1.b) update diplomatic status with each other empire
                            > 1.c) for each planet belonging to this empire
                            > 1.c.1) multiply population by ag_ratio (and fix up) (Note 1)
                            > 1.d) for each ship belonging to this empire
                            > 1.d.1) multiply ship's BR by maint_ratio (and fix up) (Note 2)
                            > 1.d.2) process build/dismantle, cloak/uncloak, morph and movement
                            orders
                            > 1.d.3) record, but do not yet process, the special actions ordered
                            for
                            > this ship (Note 3)
                            >
                            > 2) combat (a research paper in itself)
                            >
                            > 3) minefields (explode or get swept)
                            >
                            > 4) process the recorded special actions of any ships that survived
                            > combat and mine explosion
                            > 4.a) planet building
                            > 4.b) stargating
                            > 4.c) jumpgating
                            > 4.d) nuking (Note 4)
                            > 4.e) annihilation (Note 4)
                            > 4.f) invasion (Note 4)
                            > 4.g) colonization
                            > 4.h) terraforming
                            > 4.i) engineering (closing then opening)
                            >
                            > 5) for each empire, check for other forms of death
                            > 5.a) ruins
                            > 5.b) surrenders
                            > 5.c) calculate new ratios (maint, fuel, ag, tech_devel) to be used
                            > next update.
                            >
                            > Notes:
                            >
                            > 1) The actual calculation is:
                            >
                            > pop = (int) ((float) pop * ag_ratio)+1;
                            > if (pop > max_pop) pop = max_pop;
                            > if (pop < 1) pop = 1;
                            >
                            > This is what Brad said when correcting me, after I'd suggested a
                            > ceil() function was used. It doesn't actually use floor(), but the
                            > effect is the same.
                            >
                            > 2) The calculation is:
                            >
                            > br = br * maint_ratio;
                            > if (br > max_br) br = max_br;
                            >
                            > The maint_ratio used here has not yet been recalculated to
                            incorporate
                            > the effect of the population change at 1.c.1. So Damascus is right,
                            in
                            > effect, and I think it would be OK to move the population change
                            step
                            > to after combat. I think it shouldn't be after minefield explosion,
                            > though, as it's the new population, not the old, that gets halved
                            when
                            > the mine goes off.
                            >
                            > 3) Recording the special actions includes recording *where* they
                            were
                            > set. Although the ship can't order a move in the same turn that it
                            > orders a special action, it can be moved by a gate, so it's
                            important
                            > to have the location of the action at hand when the action is
                            > processed, not just the location of the ship.
                            >
                            > This explains Greg's comment, that he thought engineering was
                            > processed before gating. The engineering action takes place at the
                            > original location of the ship, even though the gating action has
                            > already happened. I'm not sure whether that means the effect would
                            be
                            > the same if the gating actions were moved down the order to after
                            > engineering.
                            >
                            > 4) The nuking, annihilation and invasion steps include the code that
                            > tests to see if the target planet was a homeworld, and if so, clears
                            > away the dead empire's ships. Therefore, if your colonies,
                            > terraformers or engineers are set to act on the turn you are nuked,
                            > annihilated or invaded out of the game, those actions won't happen.
                            If
                            > they are so set on the turn you surrender (ruin doesn't apply, I
                            > think), they *will* happen - if the relevent ships survive combat.
                            Of
                            > course, that doesn't affect you much, but it might affect remaining
                            > players. You might prevent someone else from colonizing that turn,
                            you
                            > might leave a sweetly terraformed planet ready for the next person
                            to
                            > colonize it, and you certainly might open or close a jump in the
                            turn
                            > that you surrender. However, you can't prevent the nuke action by
                            > surrendering.
                            >
                            > Hope this helps,
                            >
                            > Andy
                            >
                            > PS Brad, do you have a copy of the Pike code? Do you want one, for
                            > reference?
                            >
                          • backstabber_sc
                            ... It depends on who goes first in the nuking round. Lafrog went first, nuked your colony, and then you nuked his HW. Had you gone first, you would have
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 16, 2007
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                              --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, tyouth <no_reply@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Andy,
                              > After reading 4d. and the "note 4" below I thought there was a
                              > good chance that an empire that was being being nuked would not have
                              > his ship-orders for nuking carried out (just as engineer orders,
                              > etc. are not carried out). Wishful thinking I guess: I just traded
                              > my colony for Lafrog's HW in Doom's RX 39 (you had a ship there,
                              > btw).
                              >
                              > An inconsistency, it seems, with respect to orders being carried
                              > out. I'm not concerned about that but wonder if that would always
                              > happen or if, in some cases, the empire is nuked out and his ships
                              > won't nuke an opponents sys.
                              >

                              It depends on who goes first in the nuking round. Lafrog went first,
                              nuked your colony, and then you nuked his HW. Had you gone first, you
                              would have nuked his HW, and that would have been it. I would say
                              unfortunate, but, um, you did nuke his HW.

                              BackStabber
                            • lugdunum_sc
                              ... Right. In this case, both actions whose order is in question were of the class nuke . The classes are executed in the order I outlined, but within each
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 17, 2007
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                                --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, backstabber_sc wrote:
                                > It depends on who goes first in the nuking round. Lafrog went first,
                                > nuked your colony, and then you nuked his HW. Had you gone first, you
                                > would have nuked his HW, and that would have been it.

                                Right. In this case, both actions whose order is in question were of
                                the class "nuke". The classes are executed in the order I outlined,
                                but within each class the order is random. So Lafrog was blessed with
                                a little luck before he died, in that his nuke order was randomly
                                chosen for execution before yours.

                                Sorry about your planet - but not very sorry.

                                :)
                                Andy
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