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Re: [Stellar Crisis Club] Re: Old School - New School

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  • Christopher Priest
    I think you summarized the difference well... If you like the poptrick game you like small... If not you like big. I m not a fan of the poptrick. It is an
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 1, 2006
      I think you summarized the difference well... If you
      like the poptrick game you like small... If not you
      like big. I'm not a fan of the poptrick. It is an
      artifact of poor game design rather than being a
      consistent result of a game scenario. It certainly
      adds a uniqueness to the game and one that most of you
      enjoy.

      It completely blows away the non-mathematical players
      and makes no sense in any physical way. It clearly
      limits the attractiveness of this game. That mey be a
      good thing too.

      As long as we all have fun.

      /Chris



      --- lionhart1913 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      > theres alot more stradegy in my oppinion in
      > the small ones,
      > map advantages can be beat by br, tech choice,
      > poptricks and my
      > favorite one--guessing on when your opponets going
      > to do his poptrick,
      > theres nothing better then uncloaking on your
      > opponents hw while there
      > in the middle of there poptrick especially if there
      > larger then you
      > and have the map advantage.


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    • Chris Porter
      The pop trick is a newbie club. It only works well on noobs because they don t unerstand it - veterans - it s a minor tactic since virtually every veteran can
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 1, 2006
        The pop trick is a newbie club. It only works well on
        noobs because they don't unerstand it - veterans -
        it's a minor tactic since virtually every veteran can
        or will use it. Myself, I think it's like nipples on
        men. We're so used to having them, we don't bother
        trying to get rid of them.

        --- Christopher Priest <christopherpriest@...>
        wrote:

        > I think you summarized the difference well... If you
        > like the poptrick game you like small... If not you
        > like big. I'm not a fan of the poptrick. It is an
        > artifact of poor game design rather than being a
        > consistent result of a game scenario. It certainly
        > adds a uniqueness to the game and one that most of
        > you
        > enjoy.
        >
        > It completely blows away the non-mathematical
        > players
        > and makes no sense in any physical way. It clearly
        > limits the attractiveness of this game. That mey be
        > a
        > good thing too.
        >
        > As long as we all have fun.
        >
        > /Chris
        >
        >
        >
        > --- lionhart1913 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        >
        > > theres alot more stradegy in my oppinion in
        > > the small ones,
        > > map advantages can be beat by br, tech choice,
        > > poptricks and my
        > > favorite one--guessing on when your opponets going
        > > to do his poptrick,
        > > theres nothing better then uncloaking on your
        > > opponents hw while there
        > > in the middle of there poptrick especially if
        > there
        > > larger then you
        > > and have the map advantage.
        >
        >
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      • Lee
        Strategy is only exists when you have to make choices between balanced alternatives. For example, if tech grows very quickly then it ceases to be part of
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 1, 2006
          Strategy is only exists when you have to make choices between
          balanced alternatives.

          For example, if tech grows very quickly then it ceases to be part of
          strategy (tech of 100 vs tech 121 -> br 10 or 11 - who cares).

          Pop-tricks add a lot to strategy to old-school games because they
          force you to trade off between not having sci.s for 3 turns + not
          building for 2 -vs- sucky population + non-builders + lower
          tech. No thinking required if tech grows fast and fat planets plentiful.

          Priest-dude wrote:
          I want a consistent world view in which
          to develop a strategy. Bug tricks destroy that view.

          Any more or less so than stargates, engineers or builders?
        • Christopher Priest
          ... ROFL - nice point - hmmm.. game point... no. Christopher Priest ChristopherPriest@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 2, 2006
            > Priest-dude wrote:
            > I want a consistent world view in which
            > to develop a strategy. Bug tricks destroy that
            > view.
            >
            > Any more or less so than stargates, engineers or
            > builders?
            >
            ROFL - nice point - hmmm.. game point... no.

            Christopher Priest ChristopherPriest@...

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          • lionhart1913
            Beleave it or not Chris P. i dont think i used a pop-trick the 1st four years i played but i only played 3.00 games back then and who needs a poptrick when you
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 3, 2006
              Beleave it or not Chris P. i dont think i used a pop-trick the 1st
              four years i played but i only played 3.00 games back then and who
              needs a poptrick when you got a jumpgate LOL, Ive also won alot of
              neutral zone games at the stargate server without even building a
              colony ship.
              --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Priest
              <christopherpriest@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > Priest-dude wrote:
              > > I want a consistent world view in which
              > > to develop a strategy. Bug tricks destroy that
              > > view.
              > >
              > > Any more or less so than stargates, engineers or
              > > builders?
              > >
              > ROFL - nice point - hmmm.. game point... no.
              >
              > Christopher Priest ChristopherPriest@...
              >
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            • Peter
              Ahhh neutral zone! there was a game! someone make one on Iceberg! hey Lionhart, did we ever play a neutral zone at stargate? I think I remember a game
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 7, 2006
                Ahhh neutral zone! there was a game! someone make one on Iceberg!
                hey Lionhart, did we ever play a neutral zone at stargate? I think I
                remember a game against you cause we had been looking to meet up for
                awhile and I think I remember beating you without building a colony
                ship. What was your empire name there?

                another interesting thing to note is that I never knew the poptrick
                was a bug. I though it was one of those game secrets no one tells
                you unless they like you. (Back when i was starting they didn't have
                pop trick tutorial sites.)




                --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, lionhart1913 <no_reply@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Beleave it or not Chris P. i dont think i used a pop-trick the 1st
                > four years i played but i only played 3.00 games back then and who
                > needs a poptrick when you got a jumpgate LOL, Ive also won alot of
                > neutral zone games at the stargate server without even building a
                > colony ship.
                > --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Priest
                > <christopherpriest@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > > Priest-dude wrote:
                > > > I want a consistent world view in which
                > > > to develop a strategy. Bug tricks destroy that
                > > > view.
                > > >
                > > > Any more or less so than stargates, engineers or
                > > > builders?
                > > >
                > > ROFL - nice point - hmmm.. game point... no.
                > >
                > > Christopher Priest ChristopherPriest@
                > >
                > > __________________________________________________
                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > > http://mail.yahoo.com
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                >
              • lionhart1913
                We may have played a few neutral zone games, i played most of the neutral zone games as LeapinLizards and ended up with a record of somewhere arround 80 wins
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 7, 2006
                  We may have played a few neutral zone games, i played most of the
                  neutral zone games as LeapinLizards and ended up with a record of
                  somewhere arround 80 wins and 8 or 9 losses with out building colony
                  ships, I remember beating Lifeincarnate a few times and then he
                  started building a neer on the first up to close his hw off, which
                  prooved a pretty good stradegy against it and then i changed the way i
                  played against him sometimes which worked to my advantage because he
                  wasnt sure which way i was going to play it.

                  --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <starfed@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ahhh neutral zone! there was a game! someone make one on Iceberg!
                  > hey Lionhart, did we ever play a neutral zone at stargate? I think I
                  > remember a game against you cause we had been looking to meet up for
                  > awhile and I think I remember beating you without building a colony
                  > ship. What was your empire name there?
                  >
                  > another interesting thing to note is that I never knew the poptrick
                  > was a bug. I though it was one of those game secrets no one tells
                  > you unless they like you. (Back when i was starting they didn't have
                  > pop trick tutorial sites.)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, lionhart1913 <no_reply@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Beleave it or not Chris P. i dont think i used a pop-trick the 1st
                  > > four years i played but i only played 3.00 games back then and who
                  > > needs a poptrick when you got a jumpgate LOL, Ive also won alot of
                  > > neutral zone games at the stargate server without even building a
                  > > colony ship.
                  > > --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Priest
                  > > <christopherpriest@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > Priest-dude wrote:
                  > > > > I want a consistent world view in which
                  > > > > to develop a strategy. Bug tricks destroy that
                  > > > > view.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Any more or less so than stargates, engineers or
                  > > > > builders?
                  > > > >
                  > > > ROFL - nice point - hmmm.. game point... no.
                  > > >
                  > > > Christopher Priest ChristopherPriest@
                  > > >
                  > > > __________________________________________________
                  > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • lugdunum_sc
                  ... It isn t a bug. Either Chris is mistaken about that or he means something different by bug from my understanding of the word. I wasn t there back in the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 7, 2006
                    --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <starfed@...> wrote:
                    > another interesting thing to note is that I never knew the poptrick
                    > was a bug.

                    It isn't a bug. Either Chris is mistaken about that or he means
                    something different by "bug" from my understanding of the word.

                    I wasn't there back in the elder days of SC, before players were
                    allowed to alter the Max Pop value for each planet on the systems
                    screen. Those who were (Bruce?, Del?, Al?, Brad?) please correct me if
                    I'm wrong, but as I've heard it told, back then, for each planet the
                    Max Pop value was set to the greater of Minerals and Fuel, and
                    remained constant. Population increased at a rate determined by the Ag
                    Ratio, and that was that. If a planet was not a natural builder it
                    could never become a builder no matter how important its strategic
                    position, and players had no control over their empires' Mineral/Fuel
                    balance other than by choosing what they colonized in the first place.

                    By making Max Pop a player-determined variable, Sylvan (I think, or
                    was it the Hedbors?) aimed to redress these perceived imperfections.
                    Whether he foresaw the further implication of the change - that
                    players would be able to maximize and redistribute their entire
                    population almost instantaneously at the cost of a turn without ships
                    - I have no idea. I suspect he did, but that he kept it to himself to
                    enjoy watching the mayhem that ensued.

                    If the change made to the code back then had purported to allow
                    players to change the Max Pop value but actually altered something
                    else - eg. the Ag value, then that would have been a bug - a
                    programming mistake whereby code fails to implement its design. This
                    was a feature, correctly implemented, that also had some consequences
                    that came as a surprise to some - probably many, possibly all - players.
                  • Chris Porter
                    Would an unintended consequence of a design improvement also be a bug? For example, if I make you bionic, that s a design improvement. But if your first BM
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 7, 2006
                      Would an unintended consequence of a design
                      improvement also be a bug? For example, if I make you
                      bionic, that's a design improvement. But if your
                      first BM shatters a toilet, that's a bug. See?

                      --- lugdunum_sc <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      > --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
                      > <starfed@...> wrote:
                      > > another interesting thing to note is that I never
                      > knew the poptrick
                      > > was a bug.
                      >
                      > It isn't a bug. Either Chris is mistaken about that
                      > or he means
                      > something different by "bug" from my understanding
                      > of the word.
                      >
                      > I wasn't there back in the elder days of SC, before
                      > players were
                      > allowed to alter the Max Pop value for each planet
                      > on the systems
                      > screen. Those who were (Bruce?, Del?, Al?, Brad?)
                      > please correct me if
                      > I'm wrong, but as I've heard it told, back then, for
                      > each planet the
                      > Max Pop value was set to the greater of Minerals and
                      > Fuel, and
                      > remained constant. Population increased at a rate
                      > determined by the Ag
                      > Ratio, and that was that. If a planet was not a
                      > natural builder it
                      > could never become a builder no matter how important
                      > its strategic
                      > position, and players had no control over their
                      > empires' Mineral/Fuel
                      > balance other than by choosing what they colonized
                      > in the first place.
                      >
                      > By making Max Pop a player-determined variable,
                      > Sylvan (I think, or
                      > was it the Hedbors?) aimed to redress these
                      > perceived imperfections.
                      > Whether he foresaw the further implication of the
                      > change - that
                      > players would be able to maximize and redistribute
                      > their entire
                      > population almost instantaneously at the cost of a
                      > turn without ships
                      > - I have no idea. I suspect he did, but that he kept
                      > it to himself to
                      > enjoy watching the mayhem that ensued.
                      >
                      > If the change made to the code back then had
                      > purported to allow
                      > players to change the Max Pop value but actually
                      > altered something
                      > else - eg. the Ag value, then that would have been a
                      > bug - a
                      > programming mistake whereby code fails to implement
                      > its design. This
                      > was a feature, correctly implemented, that also had
                      > some consequences
                      > that came as a surprise to some - probably many,
                      > possibly all - players.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      > --------------------~-->
                      > Check out the new improvements in Yahoo! Groups
                      > email.
                      >
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                      >
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
                      >
                      >
                      > A few nice people meeting, sharing ideas, and
                      > blasting each other mercilessly into smouldering
                      > cinders.
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      > stellarcrisisclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Bruce Berrest
                      Well explained Andy...and that s not the only thing. Back in the days of SC Version 1.0, the only way to increase Ag Ratio was to intentionally WAYYYYYYYY
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 7, 2006
                        Well explained Andy...and that's not the only thing. Back in the days of SC
                        Version 1.0, the only way to increase Ag Ratio was to intentionally
                        WAYYYYYYYY overbuild BR1 col ships to temporarily decrease population in
                        order to create a builder at the front. At the expense of tech :(

                        This in the days of NO stargates, terraformers or anything else beyond
                        Attacks, Sci and Col ships Back then I liked that you could build an
                        Att/Sci/Col all in one ship at a build cost of base for the attack and 25
                        for each special feature. Explore to a point, and then stop and colonize.
                        The strategy was very much different back then. One other thing that was a
                        challenge is when I first started playing you could NOT register your empire
                        name until you won a game. There was no diplomacy setting other than War
                        and Truce so in order to win, you had to nuke everyone else. There can be
                        only one! No one on one games at first either, so you have to beat a group
                        of opponents to register. But then Sylvan was coding regularly (in
                        PERL...hehehe), so if something was mentioned on sc-talk in the morning and
                        he liked it, it was a feature in the game by that evening :)

                        History class over ... for now :)

                        BigB

                        >From: lugdunum_sc <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Reply-To: stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [Stellar Crisis Club] Re: Old School - New School
                        >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:52:55 -0000
                        >
                        >--- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <starfed@...> wrote:
                        > > another interesting thing to note is that I never knew the poptrick
                        > > was a bug.
                        >
                        >It isn't a bug. Either Chris is mistaken about that or he means
                        >something different by "bug" from my understanding of the word.
                        >
                        >I wasn't there back in the elder days of SC, before players were
                        >allowed to alter the Max Pop value for each planet on the systems
                        >screen. Those who were (Bruce?, Del?, Al?, Brad?) please correct me if
                        >I'm wrong, but as I've heard it told, back then, for each planet the
                        >Max Pop value was set to the greater of Minerals and Fuel, and
                        >remained constant. Population increased at a rate determined by the Ag
                        >Ratio, and that was that. If a planet was not a natural builder it
                        >could never become a builder no matter how important its strategic
                        >position, and players had no control over their empires' Mineral/Fuel
                        >balance other than by choosing what they colonized in the first place.
                        >
                        >By making Max Pop a player-determined variable, Sylvan (I think, or
                        >was it the Hedbors?) aimed to redress these perceived imperfections.
                        >Whether he foresaw the further implication of the change - that
                        >players would be able to maximize and redistribute their entire
                        >population almost instantaneously at the cost of a turn without ships
                        >- I have no idea. I suspect he did, but that he kept it to himself to
                        >enjoy watching the mayhem that ensued.
                        >
                        >If the change made to the code back then had purported to allow
                        >players to change the Max Pop value but actually altered something
                        >else - eg. the Ag value, then that would have been a bug - a
                        >programming mistake whereby code fails to implement its design. This
                        >was a feature, correctly implemented, that also had some consequences
                        >that came as a surprise to some - probably many, possibly all - players.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Bruce Berrest
                        That s not a bug....it s an undocumented feature :)
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 7, 2006
                          That's not a bug....it's an undocumented feature :)


                          >From: Chris Porter <rancor1@...>
                          >Reply-To: stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [Stellar Crisis Club] Re: Old School - New School
                          >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 11:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
                          >
                          >Would an unintended consequence of a design
                          >improvement also be a bug? For example, if I make you
                          >bionic, that's a design improvement. But if your
                          >first BM shatters a toilet, that's a bug. See?
                          >
                          >--- lugdunum_sc <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          >
                          > > --- In stellarcrisisclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
                          > > <starfed@...> wrote:
                          > > > another interesting thing to note is that I never
                          > > knew the poptrick
                          > > > was a bug.
                          > >
                          > > It isn't a bug. Either Chris is mistaken about that
                          > > or he means
                          > > something different by "bug" from my understanding
                          > > of the word.
                          > >
                          > > I wasn't there back in the elder days of SC, before
                          > > players were
                          > > allowed to alter the Max Pop value for each planet
                          > > on the systems
                          > > screen. Those who were (Bruce?, Del?, Al?, Brad?)
                          > > please correct me if
                          > > I'm wrong, but as I've heard it told, back then, for
                          > > each planet the
                          > > Max Pop value was set to the greater of Minerals and
                          > > Fuel, and
                          > > remained constant. Population increased at a rate
                          > > determined by the Ag
                          > > Ratio, and that was that. If a planet was not a
                          > > natural builder it
                          > > could never become a builder no matter how important
                          > > its strategic
                          > > position, and players had no control over their
                          > > empires' Mineral/Fuel
                          > > balance other than by choosing what they colonized
                          > > in the first place.
                          > >
                          > > By making Max Pop a player-determined variable,
                          > > Sylvan (I think, or
                          > > was it the Hedbors?) aimed to redress these
                          > > perceived imperfections.
                          > > Whether he foresaw the further implication of the
                          > > change - that
                          > > players would be able to maximize and redistribute
                          > > their entire
                          > > population almost instantaneously at the cost of a
                          > > turn without ships
                          > > - I have no idea. I suspect he did, but that he kept
                          > > it to himself to
                          > > enjoy watching the mayhem that ensued.
                          > >
                          > > If the change made to the code back then had
                          > > purported to allow
                          > > players to change the Max Pop value but actually
                          > > altered something
                          > > else - eg. the Ag value, then that would have been a
                          > > bug - a
                          > > programming mistake whereby code fails to implement
                          > > its design. This
                          > > was a feature, correctly implemented, that also had
                          > > some consequences
                          > > that came as a surprise to some - probably many,
                          > > possibly all - players.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > A few nice people meeting, sharing ideas, and
                          > > blasting each other mercilessly into smouldering
                          > > cinders.
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > stellarcrisisclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
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