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Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    ... *******Now that I ve answered about the 4 ethers and 4 temperaments, I ll say a bit about nutrition. We have 3 bodies expressing themselves within the
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 20, 2002
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      ashley.case@... writes:
      I am currently intested in the basics like understanding the four parts to the human being; the four incarnations of earth; the significance of Christ in Anthroposophy; nutritional implications of Anthroposophy; the four ethers; four temperaments; the notion of threefoldness vs. duality .. basically the foundations of an anthroposophical world view.


      *******Now that I've answered about the 4 ethers and 4 temperaments, I'll say a bit about nutrition. We have 3 bodies expressing themselves within the physical, and these three manifest the pattern we call Threefold Man. This is that we have a nerves-and-senses system centered in the head, and opposite to this the wonderful system that digests our food and provides us with energy to will, which is connected with the limbs (including the particular---ahem--- 'limb' the male uses to reproduce, which has quite a different form in the female, though still a 'limb'!). The former (the head)  is Earthy, that is, condensed in space, while the latter is the Fire pole. In between is the ever-changing middle ground, the circulatory system that goes ever from one pole to the other and back. These were called by the old alchemists Salt, Sulfur and Mercury. (The 'three' and the 'four' & their relations are a deep study indeed...)

         But Steiner built on the pure thought-form of Goethe, connecting this to other perceptions of the same reality that that great man saw. The Three, Goethe saw in the Ur-Plant. He saw that all plants are a variation on an archetypal reality of three contractions and expansions. The seed is a contraction, which then expands into the radicles stretching above and below, the upper becoming the stalk and the lower the root-system. The plant above then contracts into the trunk, and then expands again into leaf-formation. Then it contracts again into the calyx, which now expands into flower and fruit---containing the contracted seed, and the eternal cycle begins again...

         Now, this is the pattern of the ETHERIC world, whose clearest representative is the plant (traces of the etheric forces can be observed even in minerals, but covered over by the physical; and it is also in animals, but metamorphosed by the astral in it: in the plant, it is itself only). Man's etheric body is the inverse of the plant, so our reproductive organs are below, not above. (The Kabbalists saw man as a Tree growing downward from Heaven, our 'roots' above.) As the plant has a part that shuns the light and encloses itself in the earth, so our head closes itself off within itself; while the plant's flower & fruit needs the fiery forces of the sun to ripen, fiery forces likewise at work in our 'metabolic-limb' system. As the central organ of the plant is the leaf, capable of assuming an infinite number of shapes, so our circulatory system has all the varied organs of the middle body, liver, stomach, gall etc.

          Hence fruits stimulate the metabolic-limb system, leaf vegetables the circulatory or rhythmic system and roots the head and nerves. This is a generality only, though: within the plant world, there are many varieties of each. Carrots, for instance, are like fruits but held below the surface, and so stimulate more than the head; potatoes affect the head, all right, but anaesthetize it rather than stimulate it.

         I'd like to recommend Maria Geuter's "Herbs In Nutrition" (Bio-Dynamic Agricultural Association, 1978) as a start on this subject. In addition to specific use of herbs for children, in the first chapter she has brief but wise observations from her own experiences in curative education. The Choleric has the affinity for fruits, but since he is already 'fiery' this would be the worst for him: instead he needs roots and grains, everything requiring much energy to digest, particularly raw foods like salads, and starches. This prevents him from being TOO energetic for his own good. Giving sugar or easily-digested fruit to a choleric is like feeding a fire gasoline!

         The Sanguine also needs to be 'brought down to earth' a bit, but for him the roots and/or leaves need to be cooked, as he has not enough energy to digest. He also craves dairy products like cream, for grounding. The Phlegmatic has a sluggish digestion and needs variety of food to stimulate it, and often highly spiced & hot food; especially the light-and-warmth parts of the plant world, green leafy vegetables & fruits. But it is the Melancholic above all who must have fruits and sugar to bring him up out of his dark 'root-earth'. Never let a melancholic feed only on things that grow in darkness like peanuts or potatoes.

         Of course the matter is more complicated with meat in the diet. Beef is very like roots in its effect, weighing us down deeper in the body. Fish is much lighter, fowl still more so. It's a vast study to learn to recognize the effects of the 4 Ethers in the variety of plants and animals on earth, and how each affects us. This is what underlay Macrobiotics and Ayur-Veda, seeing how the qualities in Nature match and either amplify or counteract the corresponding ones in us. But fortunately, our anthroposophic movement---which so many seem to do nothing but find fault with, while seldom passing on any productive knowledge like that above---has produced a wealth of research on the subject, gained from actual experience in agriculture and nutrition with both children and adults, and there is much that can be found by any who seek.

      To Be Continued...

      Dr. Starman
    • Ashley Case
      that was my first time reading about the temperaments and nutrition. thanks for the easy overview. it was facinating to consider the man as plant in reverse.
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 20, 2002
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        >
         
        that was my first time reading about the temperaments and nutrition.  thanks for the easy overview.  it was facinating to consider the man as plant in reverse.
         
        i mentioned before that i have always had a spiritual affinity to rocks.  well, i have a real alienation from plant life.  i wonder why?  the more i learn, the more blind spots i find in myself.
        -------Original Message-------
         
        Date: Thursday, June 20, 2002 06:17:51 PM
        Subject: [steiner] Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
         
        ashley.case@... writes:
        I am currently intested in the basics like understanding the four parts to the human being; the four incarnations of earth; the significance of Christ in Anthroposophy; nutritional implications of Anthroposophy; the four ethers; four temperaments; the notion of threefoldness vs. duality .. basically the foundations of an anthroposophical world view.


        *******Now that I've answered about the 4 ethers and 4 temperaments, I'll say a bit about nutrition. We have 3 bodies expressing themselves within the physical, and these three manifest the pattern we call Threefold Man. This is that we have a nerves-and-senses system centered in the head, and opposite to this the wonderful system that digests our food and provides us with energy to will, which is connected with the limbs (including the particular---ahem--- 'limb' the male uses to reproduce, which has quite a different form in the female, though still a 'limb'!). The former (the head)  is Earthy, that is, condensed in space, while the latter is the Fire pole. In between is the ever-changing middle ground, the circulatory system that goes ever from one pole to the other and back. These were called by the old alchemists Salt, Sulfur and Mercury. (The 'three' and the 'four' & their relations are a deep study indeed...)

           But Steiner built on the pure thought-form of Goethe, connecting this to other perceptions of the same reality that that great man saw. The Three, Goethe saw in the Ur-Plant. He saw that all plants are a variation on an archetypal reality of three contractions and expansions. The seed is a contraction, which then expands into the radicles stretching above and below, the upper becoming the stalk and the lower the root-system. The plant above then contracts into the trunk, and then expands again into leaf-formation. Then it contracts again into the calyx, which now expands into flower and fruit---containing the contracted seed, and the eternal cycle begins again...

           Now, this is the pattern of the ETHERIC world, whose clearest representative is the plant (traces of the etheric forces can be observed even in minerals, but covered over by the physical; and it is also in animals, but metamorphosed by the astral in it: in the plant, it is itself only). Man's etheric body is the inverse of the plant, so our reproductive organs are below, not above. (The Kabbalists saw man as a Tree growing downward from Heaven, our 'roots' above.) As the plant has a part that shuns the light and encloses itself in the earth, so our head closes itself off within itself; while the plant's flower & fruit needs the fiery forces of the sun to ripen, fiery forces likewise at work in our 'metabolic-limb' system. As the central organ of the plant is the leaf, capable of assuming an infinite number of shapes, so our circulatory system has all the varied organs of the middle body, liver, stomach, gall etc.

            Hence fruits stimulate the metabolic-limb system, leaf vegetables the circulatory or rhythmic system and roots the head and nerves. This is a generality only, though: within the plant world, there are many varieties of each. Carrots, for instance, are like fruits but held below the surface, and so stimulate more than the head; potatoes affect the head, all right, but anaesthetize it rather than stimulate it.

           I'd like to recommend Maria Geuter's "Herbs In Nutrition" (Bio-Dynamic Agricultural Association, 1978) as a start on this subject. In addition to specific use of herbs for children, in the first chapter she has brief but wise observations from her own experiences in curative education. The Choleric has the affinity for fruits, but since he is already 'fiery' this would be the worst for him: instead he needs roots and grains, everything requiring much energy to digest, particularly raw foods like salads, and starches. This prevents him from being TOO energetic for his own good. Giving sugar or easily-digested fruit to a choleric is like feeding a fire gasoline!

           The Sanguine also needs to be 'brought down to earth' a bit, but for him the roots and/or leaves need to be cooked, as he has not enough energy to digest. He also craves dairy products like cream, for grounding. The Phlegmatic has a sluggish digestion and needs variety of food to stimulate it, and often highly spiced & hot food; especially the light-and-warmth parts of the plant world, green leafy vegetables & fruits. But it is the Melancholic above all who must have fruits and sugar to bring him up out of his dark 'root-earth'. Never let a melancholic feed only on things that grow in darkness like peanuts or potatoes.

           Of course the matter is more complicated with meat in the diet. Beef is very like roots in its effect, weighing us down deeper in the body. Fish is much lighter, fowl still more so. It's a vast study to learn to recognize the effects of the 4 Ethers in the variety of plants and animals on earth, and how each affects us. This is what underlay Macrobiotics and Ayur-Veda, seeing how the qualities in Nature match and either amplify or counteract the corresponding ones in us. But fortunately, our anthroposophic movement---which so many seem to do nothing but find fault with, while seldom passing on any productive knowledge like that above---has produced a wealth of research on the subject, gained from actual experience in agriculture and nutrition with both children and adults, and there is much that can be found by any who seek.

        To Be Continued...

        Dr. Starman

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      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        ... *******The melancholic temperament, with too little of the phlegmatic, I d say. One way it s indicated is many Earth and Fire signs in the horoscope and
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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          In a message dated Fri, 21 Jun 2002 1:08:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashley.case@... writes:

          > that was my first time reading about the temperaments and nutrition. thanks for the easy overview. it was facinating to consider the man as plant in reverse.
          >
          > i mentioned before that i have always had a spiritual affinity to rocks. well, i have a real alienation from plant life. i wonder why? the more i learn, the more blind spots i
          > find in myself.

          *******The melancholic temperament, with too little of the phlegmatic, I'd say. One way it's indicated is many Earth and Fire signs in the horoscope and little Water.

          Starman
        • Ashley Case
          I don t understand your explanation . ... From: steiner@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 07:44:21 AM To: steiner@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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            >
            I don't understand your explanation .
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 07:44:21 AM
            Subject: Re: [steiner] Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
             
            In a message dated Fri, 21 Jun 2002 1:08:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashley.case@... writes:

            > that
            was my first time reading about the temperaments and nutrition.  thanks for the easy overview.  it was facinating to consider the man as plant in reverse.

            > i mentioned before that i have
            always had a spiritual affinity to rocks.  well, i have a real alienation from plant life.  i wonder why?  the more i learn, the more blind spots i
            > find in myself.

            *******The melancholic temperament, with too little of the phlegmatic, I'd say. One way it's indicated is many Earth and Fire signs in the horoscope and little Water.

            Starman

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            steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com

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            http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



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          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            ... *******A person who has much Warmth Ether and Life Ether but little Sound, Chemical or Number Ether has no affinity for plants ---or animals, either, if
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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              > > that was my first time reading about the temperaments and nutrition. thanks for the easy overview. it was facinating to consider the man as plant in reverse.
              > > i mentioned before that i have always had a spiritual affinity to rocks. well, i have a real alienation from plant life. i wonder why? the more i learn, the more blind spots i
              > > find in myself.
              >
              > *******The melancholic temperament, with too little of the phlegmatic, I'd say. One way it's indicated is many Earth and
              > Fire signs in the horoscope and little Water.
              >
              > Starman

              ashley.case@... writes:
              > I don't understand your explanation .


              *******A person who has much Warmth Ether and Life Ether but little Sound, Chemical or Number Ether has no affinity for plants ---or animals, either, if there's little Light Ether.
              It gives one much will and practicality but little depth of feeling, and can tend towards ruthlessness. The horoscope is one way of seeing it--- specifically what planets are in Fire, Air, Water and Earth signs, though the planets are involved, too.

              Starman
            • Ashley Case
              yes, that s me! is there any way i can rehabilitate myself? ... From: steiner@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 08:37:54 AM To:
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                >
                yes, that's me!  is there any way i can rehabilitate myself?
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 08:37:54 AM
                Subject: Re: [steiner] Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
                 

                > > that was my first time reading about
                the temperaments and nutrition.  thanks for the easy overview.  it was facinating to consider the man as plant in reverse.
                > > i
                mentioned before that i have always had a spiritual affinity to rocks.  well, i have a real alienation from plant life.  i wonder why?  the more i learn, the more blind spots i
                > >
                find in myself.
                >
                > *******The melancholic temperament, with
                too little of the phlegmatic, I'd say. One way it's indicated is many Earth and
                > Fire signs in the horoscope and little Water.
                >
                > Starman

                ashley.case@... writes:
                > I don't
                understand your explanation .


                *******A person who has much Warmth Ether and Life Ether but little Sound, Chemical or Number Ether has no affinity for plants ---or animals, either, if there's little Light Ether.
                It gives one much will and practicality but little depth of feeling, and can tend towards ruthlessness. The horoscope is one way of seeing it--- specifically what planets are in Fire, Air, Water and Earth signs, though the planets are involved, too.

                Starman


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                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com

                Search the archives of the group at:
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                Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                 
              • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                ... A person who has much Warmth Ether and Life Ether but little Sound, Chemical or Number Ether has no affinity for plants ---or animals, either, if there s
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                  > > > i have always had a spiritual affinity to rocks. well, i have a real alienation from plant life. i wonder why? the more i learn, the more blind spots i find in myself.
                  > >
                  > > *******The melancholic temperament, with too little of the phlegmatic, I'd say. One way it's indicated is many Earth and Fire signs in the horoscope and little Water.
                  A person who has much Warmth Ether and Life Ether but little Sound, Chemical or Number Ether has no affinity for plants ---or animals, either, if there's little Light Ether.
                  It gives one much will and practicality but little depth of feeling, and can tend towards ruthlessness. The horoscope is one way of seeing it--- specifically what planets are in Fire, Air, Water and Earth signs, though the planets are
                  > involved, too.
                  >
                  > Starman

                  ashley.case@... writes:
                  > yes, that's me! is there any way i can rehabilitate myself?

                  *******Of course: the planets are simply what we 'inherit' from past incarnations. First, you may find you like to have Watery (Phlegmatic) people close to you. They have something you feel you need. If you allow yourself to feel TOO different from them, you may not be able to receive what you need from them. Remember, opposites attract.

                  And in your judgements, "Allow justice to be tempered by mercy and a knowledge of human frailty", as the old advice to judges went. An example of a Fire-Earth woman was Ayn Rand, who despite her brilliance and contributions to literature & philosophy made a wreck of her personal life. The worst example of the Fire-Earth man was Hitler. What good to accomplish what you will if it's at the cost of human happiness?

                  It's not an unusual condition for modern man. Lack of 'Water' is the underdevelopment of the rhythmic system. Adopting regular routines, doing things repeatedly & rhythmically, is the treatment. You'll find Phlegmatics have a strong need for this. Nutritionally, have green leafy vegetables, and avoid fruit/sugar and below-ground vegetables.

                  Starman
                • Ashley Case
                  this is very helpful. and i think i do attract phlegmatics (and then hate them!) i will try to see what I can learn from them. what will i do with my ice
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                    >
                    this is very helpful.  and i think i do attract phlegmatics (and then hate them!)  i will try to see what I can learn from them.  what will i do with my ice cream addiction ?
                     
                    thanks a lot for the practical advice.  and i *loved* Ayn Rand, as a teenager.  I found her unreadable as an adult.
                     
                    -------Original Message-------
                     
                    Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:03:35 AM
                    Subject: Re: [steiner] Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
                     

                    > > >  i have always had a
                    spiritual affinity to rocks.  well, i have a real alienation from plant life.  i wonder why?  the more i learn, the more blind spots i find in myself.
                    > >
                    > > *******The melancholic
                    temperament, with too little of the phlegmatic, I'd say. One way it's indicated is many Earth and  Fire signs in the horoscope and little Water. 
                       A person who has much Warmth Ether and Life Ether but little Sound, Chemical or Number Ether has no affinity for plants ---or animals, either, if there's little Light Ether.
                       It gives one much will and practicality but little depth of feeling, and can tend towards ruthlessness. The horoscope is one way of seeing it--- specifically what planets are in Fire, Air, Water and Earth signs, though the planets are
                    > involved, too.
                    >
                    > Starman

                    ashley.case@... writes:
                    > yes,
                    that's me!  is there any way i can rehabilitate myself?

                    *******Of course: the planets are simply what we 'inherit' from past incarnations. First, you may find you like to have Watery (Phlegmatic) people close to you. They have something you feel you need. If you allow yourself to feel TOO different from them, you may not be able to receive what you need from them. Remember, opposites attract.

                      And in your judgements, "Allow justice to be tempered by mercy and a knowledge of human frailty", as the old advice to judges went. An example of a Fire-Earth woman was Ayn Rand, who despite her brilliance and contributions to literature & philosophy made a wreck of her personal life. The worst example of the Fire-Earth man was Hitler. What good to accomplish what you will if it's at the cost of human happiness?

                       It's not an unusual condition for modern man. Lack of 'Water' is the underdevelopment of the rhythmic system. Adopting regular routines, doing things repeatedly & rhythmically, is the treatment. You'll find Phlegmatics have a strong need for this. Nutritionally, have green leafy vegetables, and avoid fruit/sugar and below-ground vegetables.

                    Starman


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                  • Ashley Case
                    one more thing .. does this explain my dislike of summer and my love of autumn? ... From: steiner@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:10:32 AM To:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                      one more thing .. does this explain my dislike of summer and my love of autumn?
                       
                      -------Original Message-------
                       
                      Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:10:32 AM
                      Subject: Re: [steiner] Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
                       
                      this is very helpful.  and i think i do attract phlegmatics (and then hate them!)  i will try to see what I can learn from them.  what will i do with my ice cream addiction ?
                       
                      thanks a lot for the practical advice.  and i *loved* Ayn Rand, as a teenager.  I found her unreadable as an adult.
                       
                      -------Original Message-------
                       
                      Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 10:03:35 AM
                      Subject: Re: [steiner] Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
                       

                      > > >  i have always had a
                      spiritual affinity to rocks.  well, i have a real alienation from plant life.  i wonder why?  the more i learn, the more blind spots i find in myself.
                      > >
                      > > *******The melancholic
                      temperament, with too little of the phlegmatic, I'd say. One way it's indicated is many Earth and  Fire signs in the horoscope and little Water. 
                         A person who has much Warmth Ether and Life Ether but little Sound, Chemical or Number Ether has no affinity for plants ---or animals, either, if there's little Light Ether.
                         It gives one much will and practicality but little depth of feeling, and can tend towards ruthlessness. The horoscope is one way of seeing it--- specifically what planets are in Fire, Air, Water and Earth signs, though the planets are
                      > involved, too.
                      >
                      > Starman

                      ashley.case@... writes:
                      > yes,
                      that's me!  is there any way i can rehabilitate myself?

                      *******Of course: the planets are simply what we 'inherit' from past incarnations. First, you may find you like to have Watery (Phlegmatic) people close to you. They have something you feel you need. If you allow yourself to feel TOO different from them, you may not be able to receive what you need from them. Remember, opposites attract.

                        And in your judgements, "Allow justice to be tempered by mercy and a knowledge of human frailty", as the old advice to judges went. An example of a Fire-Earth woman was Ayn Rand, who despite her brilliance and contributions to literature & philosophy made a wreck of her personal life. The worst example of the Fire-Earth man was Hitler. What good to accomplish what you will if it's at the cost of human happiness?

                         It's not an unusual condition for modern man. Lack of 'Water' is the underdevelopment of the rhythmic system. Adopting regular routines, doing things repeatedly & rhythmically, is the treatment. You'll find Phlegmatics have a strong need for this. Nutritionally, have green leafy vegetables, and avoid fruit/sugar and below-ground vegetables.

                      Starman


                      Post to steiner@egroups.com

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com

                      Search the archives of the group at:
                      http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

                      Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                      http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                       
                    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                      ... ******She appeals to people who feel they have a lot of talent but are not being allowed to be themselves---in other words, to the choleric in us, which
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                        > > i have always had a spiritual affinity to rocks. well, i have a real alienation from plant life. i wonder why? the more i learn, the more blind spots i find in myself.

                        > > > *******The melancholic temperament, with too little of the phlegmatic, I'd say. One way it's indicated is many Earth and Fire signs in the horoscope and little Water.
                        > A person who has much Warmth Ether and Life Ether but little Sound, Chemical or Number Ether has no affinity for plants ---or animals, either, if there's little Light Ether.
                        > It gives one much will and practicality but little depth of feeling, and can tend towards ruthlessness. The horoscope is one way of seeing it--- specifically what planets are in Fire, Air, Water and Earth signs, though the planets are
                        > > involved, too.
                        > > Starman

                        > ashley.case@... writes:
                        > > yes, that's me! is there any way i can rehabilitate myself?

                        *******Of course: the planets are simply what we 'inherit' from past incarnations. First, you may find you like to have Watery (Phlegmatic) people close to you. They have something you feel you need. If you allow yourself to feel TOO different from them, you may not be able to receive what you need from them. Remember, opposites attract.
                        > And in your judgements, "Allow justice to be tempered by mercy and a knowledge of human frailty", as the old advice to judges went. An example of a Fire-Earth woman was Ayn Rand, who despite her brilliance and contributions to literature & philosophy made a wreck of her personal life. The worst example of the Fire-Earth man was Hitler. What good to accomplish what you will if it's at the cost of human happiness?
                        > It's not an unusual condition for modern man. Lack of 'Water' is the underdevelopment of the rhythmic system. Adopting regular routines, doing things repeatedly & rhythmically, is the treatment. You'll find Phlegmatics have a strong need for this. Nutritionally, have green leafy vegetables, and avoid fruit/sugar and below-ground vegetables.
                        > Starman

                        ashley.case@... writes:

                        > this is very helpful. and i think i do attract phlegmatics (and then hate them!) i will try to see what I can learn from them. what will i do with my ice cream addiction ?

                        *******Well, that means you have some of the Sanguine temperament too! It gives a love of cream. So you're probably not just Fire and Earth. A complete picture is found in the horoscope. You can cast your own online now, at astro.com.

                        >>>> thanks a lot for the practical advice. and i *loved* Ayn Rand, as a teenager. I found her unreadable as an adult.

                        ******She appeals to people who feel they have a lot of talent but are not being 'allowed' to be themselves---in other words, to the choleric in us, which we especially feel as teens.
                        Actually, if she hadn't stopped short at a certain point, she would have found her way to spiritual science; and her work, Nietzchean though it is expressed, has many points of contact with anthroposophy. She experienced the human spirit but never broke through to experiencing the spiritual world THROUGH that. Her 'Objectivism' is still useful for people who need to have a stronger sense of self---but is not good for any who have too strong a one already!

                        >>>one more thing .. does this explain my dislike of summer and my love of autumn?

                        *******Yes, if the 'Fire' nature is already too strong, hot climate can even make one physically sick---fevers and other forms of 'excarnating' from the body.

                        Dr. Starman
                      • hillstar34@aol.com
                        Oh my god i must be going insane, i have just listened to a justification of hating plants, due to a temperament explanation, you know what, give me that
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                          Oh my god
                          i must be going insane, i have just listened to a justification of hating
                          plants, due to a temperament explanation, you know what, give me that cold
                          old time religion,. i hate maggots does that have application? i can only
                          imagine the idiot savant who hates plants here, maybe your mum planted to
                          many mums, could it be just a tad deeper? please spare me the i hate love
                          ice cream they did a study, criminals apparently love ice cream too, lets
                          draw some intersecting lines and come up with something we must be onto them
                          now, by golly, where is sherlock holmes, could you possibly apply this to
                          something current like war, hunger, the pharmaceutical companies, enron?
                          i hate wood ticks, was born in February and am melancholic, but i think i
                          hate wood ticks because they are yuckie,and i think i was born in February
                          because my parents did the hoochie coochie in June to brazilian music,
                          sincerely the wood tick hater,
                        • Ashley Case
                          In spite of the dissenter, I really did appreciate the individual attention, Starman . ... From: steiner@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 03:50:25
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                            >
                            In spite of the dissenter, I really did appreciate the individual attention, Starman .
                             
                            -------Original Message-------
                             
                            Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 03:50:25 PM
                            Subject: Re: [steiner] Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
                             
                            Oh my god
                            i must be going insane, i have just listened to a justification of hating
                            plants, due to a temperament   explanation, you know what, give me that cold
                            old time religion,. i hate maggots does that have application? i can only
                            imagine the idiot savant who hates plants here, maybe your mum planted to
                            many mums, could it be  just a tad deeper? please spare me the i hate  love
                            ice cream they did a study, criminals apparently love ice cream too, lets
                            draw some intersecting lines and come up with something we must be  onto them
                            now, by golly,  where is sherlock holmes, could you possibly apply this to
                            something current like war, hunger, the pharmaceutical companies, enron?
                              i hate wood ticks, was born in February and am melancholic, but i think i
                            hate wood ticks because they are yuckie,and i think i was born in  February
                            because my parents did the hoochie coochie in June to brazilian music,
                            sincerely  the wood tick hater,

                            Post to steiner@egroups.com

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                          • Ashley Case
                            and to the meanie .. i never said i hated plants. i feel alienated from the plant world, and i feel a deep loss for this. ... From: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                              >
                              and to the meanie .. i never said i hated plants.  i feel alienated from the plant world, and i feel a deep loss for this.
                               
                              -------Original Message-------
                               
                              Date: Friday, June 21, 2002 03:50:25 PM
                              Subject: Re: [steiner] Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
                               
                              Oh my god
                              i must be going insane, i have just listened to a justification of hating
                              plants, due to a temperament   explanation, you know what, give me that cold
                              old time religion,. i hate maggots does that have application? i can only
                              imagine the idiot savant who hates plants here, maybe your mum planted to
                              many mums, could it be  just a tad deeper? please spare me the i hate  love
                              ice cream they did a study, criminals apparently love ice cream too, lets
                              draw some intersecting lines and come up with something we must be  onto them
                              now, by golly,  where is sherlock holmes, could you possibly apply this to
                              something current like war, hunger, the pharmaceutical companies, enron?
                                i hate wood ticks, was born in February and am melancholic, but i think i
                              hate wood ticks because they are yuckie,and i think i was born in  February
                              because my parents did the hoochie coochie in June to brazilian music,
                              sincerely  the wood tick hater,

                              Post to steiner@egroups.com

                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com

                              Search the archives of the group at:
                              http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

                              Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                              http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                               
                            • DRStarman2001@aol.com
                              ... *******She said she had no affinity for plants. You re welcome to go seek old time religion anywhere you want, but not to insult other list members here. I
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 21, 2002
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                                In a message dated Fri, 21 Jun 2002 5:50:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, hillstar34 writes:

                                > Oh my god
                                > i must be going insane, i have just listened to a justification of hating
                                > plants, due to a temperament explanation, you know what,
                                > give me that cold old time religion...

                                *******She said she had no affinity for plants. You're welcome to go seek old time religion anywhere you want, but not to insult other list members here. I don't see where your post was adding anything to any discussion.

                                Starman
                              • Jenny
                                and i *loved* Ayn Rand, as a teenager. I found her unreadable as an adult. ... are not being allowed to be themselves---in other words, to the choleric in
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 12, 2007
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                                  and i *loved* Ayn Rand, as a teenager. I found her unreadable as
                                  an adult.
                                  >
                                  > ******She appeals to people who feel they have a lot of talent but
                                  are not being 'allowed' to be themselves---in other words, to the
                                  choleric in us, which we especially feel as teens.
                                  > Actually, if she hadn't stopped short at a certain point, she
                                  would have found her way to spiritual science; and her work,
                                  Nietzchean though it is expressed, has many points of contact with
                                  anthroposophy. She experienced the human spirit but never broke
                                  through to experiencing the spiritual world THROUGH that.
                                  Her 'Objectivism' is still useful for people who need to have a
                                  stronger sense of self---but is not good for any who have too strong
                                  a one already!
                                  > Dr. Starman
                                  >


                                  Hello, Dr. Starman and All!

                                  Forgive me for bringing up an old post, but I found this view of Ayn
                                  Rand to be fascinating. It has been my understanding that
                                  Objectivists are Atheists based on the idea that "reality precedes
                                  consciousness" -- hence there can be no God. Objectivists claim that
                                  one cannot be both a Christian and an Objectivist. I would be very
                                  interested to learn where Objectivism meets Anthroposophy and how Ayn
                                  Rand "got it wrong".

                                  Thank you so much!

                                  Jenny
                                • carynlouise
                                  ... Hi Jenny Objectivism meets Anthroposophy? In today s lecture - I, Wisdom and Love work as Thinking, Feeling and Willing Objectivist reality preceding
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 14, 2007
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                                    > Hello, Dr. Starman and All!
                                    >
                                    > Forgive me for bringing up an old post, but I found this view of Ayn
                                    > Rand to be fascinating. It has been my understanding that
                                    > Objectivists are Atheists based on the idea that "reality precedes
                                    > consciousness" -- hence there can be no God. Objectivists claim that
                                    > one cannot be both a Christian and an Objectivist. I would be very
                                    > interested to learn where Objectivism meets Anthroposophy and how Ayn
                                    > Rand "got it wrong".
                                    >
                                    > Thank you so much!
                                    >
                                    > Jenny
                                    >

                                    Hi Jenny

                                    Objectivism meets Anthroposophy? In today's lecture -

                                    "I, Wisdom and Love work as Thinking, Feeling and Willing"


                                    Objectivist reality preceding consciousness to include nutrition?

                                    "A huna Pfene Li nofa Li Songo Gonya Muri"
                                    "Too many people die in the world because they are too poor to stay
                                    alive"
                                  • Mathew Morrell
                                    Not Van Gogh, but the supra-personal Christ within him, was capable of perceiving the one Reality of a wheat field from many different perspectives; some
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 14, 2007
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                                      Not Van Gogh, but the supra-personal Christ within him, was capable
                                      of perceiving the one Reality of a wheat field from many different
                                      perspectives; some painted in an aura of silence: calm, full of
                                      light and peaceful solitude. Other wheat fields were on fire in the
                                      Word; each stalk painted like a holy flame. Van Gogh's wheat fields
                                      were not Platonic idea forms, but a living essence filled with
                                      character and dimensionality unique unto themselves.

                                      Which is the true wheat field? Was Van Gogh's collection of wheat
                                      field paintings just imaginative fancies created by his brain, as the
                                      subjectivist would insist? Or was Van Gogh so masterful at
                                      describing and analyzing his states of subjectivity that he
                                      discovered an objective ground, not only within side himself, but in
                                      the physical world, as well---a suprapersonal objectivity that is an
                                      outflowing of spiritual thought?

                                      Starman is right when he says objectivism doesn't have anything to do
                                      with spiritual science and can retard the soul on an evolutionary
                                      level, stunting spiritual growth. But, as Starman has also said in
                                      the past, Steiner was not a "subjectivist" and therefore truth and
                                      knowledge play a central role in his science-based occult
                                      philosophy. In his Theory of Knowledge, for instance, he defines
                                      subjective thinking as a necessary "transitional stage", not the end
                                      result, of scientific perception.

                                      The extreme subjectivist (e.g. JZ Knight) feels that all things are
                                      relative, that no objective truth exists in the world, and that you
                                      cannot perceive anything beyond yourself, hence their rejection of
                                      all laws that apply universally to everyone, politically,
                                      spiritually, or physically. Most New Age thinkers reject the
                                      physical world on the grounds that it is maya, illusion, which is
                                      devoid of innate truth beyond our personal consciousness. JZ herself
                                      smokes a pipe and preaches that the world is a pipe dream.

                                      On the other hand, Steiner was no metaphysical objectivist. In fact,
                                      he rejected the objective idealism of Plato and Hegel in which things
                                      are mere representations of their mental existence. In-between
                                      Hegelian-Platonic idealism and Kantian subjectivity there exists a
                                      kind of locus point where thinking (the movement of consciousness)
                                      becomes involved in the subjective act of perception, uniting two
                                      totally different sphere of comprehension. Comprehending phenomena
                                      through this locus point is the key to occult perception, our locus
                                      point being conscience, the I AM principle, which is objectivity on a
                                      universal level, a kind of God's eye view of reality transcending the
                                      personal self.





                                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "carynlouise" <carynlouise@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Hello, Dr. Starman and All!
                                      > >
                                      > > Forgive me for bringing up an old post, but I found this view of
                                      Ayn
                                      > > Rand to be fascinating. It has been my understanding that
                                      > > Objectivists are Atheists based on the idea that "reality
                                      precedes
                                      > > consciousness" -- hence there can be no God. Objectivists claim
                                      that
                                      > > one cannot be both a Christian and an Objectivist. I would be
                                      very
                                      > > interested to learn where Objectivism meets Anthroposophy and how
                                      Ayn
                                      > > Rand "got it wrong".
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you so much!
                                      > >
                                      > > Jenny
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Jenny
                                      >
                                      > Objectivism meets Anthroposophy? In today's lecture -
                                      >
                                      > "I, Wisdom and Love work as Thinking, Feeling and Willing"
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Objectivist reality preceding consciousness to include nutrition?
                                      >
                                      > "A huna Pfene Li nofa Li Songo Gonya Muri"
                                      > "Too many people die in the world because they are too poor to stay
                                      > alive"
                                      >
                                    • Durward Starman
                                      *******Ayn Rand is a whole subject in herself. In one past incarnation she longed to be a philosopher like Aristotle, but was unable to be: so in this life she
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jun 24, 2007
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                                        *******Ayn Rand is a whole subject in herself. In one past incarnation she
                                        longed to be a philosopher like Aristotle, but was unable to be: so in this
                                        life she indulged her wish, but because it was in a later epoch it did not
                                        have the effect it would have then. And intellect, when it has no
                                        appropriate use in this time, becomes corrupted by the opposing powers. So
                                        her philosophical system is a sort of dead-end. It did not lead to renewing
                                        the powers of the soul for art, for creativity, as anthroposophy does, but
                                        rather leads to a sort of spiritual prison for those who swallow it whole.

                                        However, if you read her epistemological writings, such as her
                                        Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, and compare them to Steiner's
                                        philosophical writings, such as the Philosophy of Freedom, it's obvious she
                                        was on the same track. She just made an error similar to Hegel's which
                                        caused her to fall short of Steiner. (I'm not sure how many people will be
                                        interested in this; philosophy is usually a sure way to lose listeners these
                                        days. But what the heck.) See, Hegel took the concept as the ultimate
                                        reality rather than the thinking mind that creates concepts, or more
                                        accurately draws them from the infinite well of concepts by the faculty of
                                        "intuition" as Steiner puts it (not meaning our usual use of the word
                                        intuition by that). Rand took the outside world as the ultimate reality,
                                        thus making the activity of cognition concrete but never going deeply enough
                                        within to recognize what it was that took the 'percepts' from the external
                                        world and 'integrated' them into a universal concept. She had a horror of
                                        non-material means of knowing and a sort of dread of looking within. [Taking
                                        speed every day for 40 years didn't help, either.] But any intense study of
                                        philosophy can be a start in the direction of anthroposophy, and hers sure
                                        is intense.

                                        As for being an atheist, objectivists regard most religion as primitive
                                        superstition and a hindrance to thinking and progress, an emotional
                                        mysticism which leads to irrationality and wars.

                                        Well?????? Any problems with that ????????

                                        Remember, Steiner was accused by many priests of being an atheist because
                                        he didn't agree with the usual idiotic approach to religion (one even egged
                                        on the local Swiss to burn down the building). Buddha's followers were
                                        likewise called atheists because they thought outside of the traditional
                                        formulaic method of thinking about the Divine or ultimate reality. Socrates
                                        was forced to drink the hemlock for the same reason.

                                        But to Rand, the Self was our Spirit and thinking was done with that
                                        Spirit, and Man was a being destined to create a life for himself, for his
                                        own sake, as a free spirit. Making an individual merely a means to another
                                        end----saying he must live to serve some hypothetical God, or the state, or
                                        Osama Bin Laden or anything outside of himself--- was repugnant to her, and
                                        seemed no different in the case of the traditional Christianity (which
                                        Steiner also opposed in his early career) than in the case of the communism
                                        which denied and crushed all individuals as she experienced it in Lenin's
                                        Russia, where her parents were reduced to poverty when the state took over
                                        her father's business.

                                        There's one other great point of contact between their approaches: just
                                        about all the New Age garbage today and for the past century or more has
                                        gone back to the decadent Eastern religious point of view, that all external
                                        reality is an illusion. (That's suuuuuuuch a helpful philosophy for building
                                        a building, starting a farm, running a school, making remedies for
                                        illnesses, etc.!!!) Rand was repulsed both at the dishonesty of those who
                                        push this snake-oil while violating it every day---- as William James joked
                                        about a gathering of philosophers, they concluded there was no such thing as
                                        reality but all left by the door, not the window---- and the
                                        feeble-mindedness of the losers who buy it rather than see it as what it is,
                                        a failed philosophy from people who live in mud huts and starve by the
                                        millions (most of whom have now intelligently jettisoned it in favor of the
                                        Western philosophy they see lifting them out of poverty).

                                        Both Rand and Steiner stood firmly on the ground of Western
                                        philosophy--- Rand regarding it as a great gift now being abandoned for
                                        irrationalism and socialism, and Steiner regarding it as also a treasure but
                                        one which needed to be extended into a SPIRIT science as well as a natural
                                        and soul one, or else it would become a force for evil.


                                        Starman

                                        www.DrStarman.com





                                        >From: "Jenny" <jnnfrm62@...>
                                        >Reply-To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                                        >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: [steiner] Re: Introduction to Anthroposophy #3: Nutrition
                                        >Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 10:26:40 -0000
                                        >
                                        > and i *loved* Ayn Rand, as a teenager. I found her unreadable as
                                        >an adult.
                                        > >
                                        > > ******She appeals to people who feel they have a lot of talent but
                                        >are not being 'allowed' to be themselves---in other words, to the
                                        >choleric in us, which we especially feel as teens.
                                        > > Actually, if she hadn't stopped short at a certain point, she
                                        >would have found her way to spiritual science; and her work,
                                        >Nietzchean though it is expressed, has many points of contact with
                                        >anthroposophy. She experienced the human spirit but never broke
                                        >through to experiencing the spiritual world THROUGH that.
                                        >Her 'Objectivism' is still useful for people who need to have a
                                        >stronger sense of self---but is not good for any who have too strong
                                        >a one already!
                                        > > Dr. Starman
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >Hello, Dr. Starman and All!
                                        >
                                        >Forgive me for bringing up an old post, but I found this view of Ayn
                                        >Rand to be fascinating. It has been my understanding that
                                        >Objectivists are Atheists based on the idea that "reality precedes
                                        >consciousness" -- hence there can be no God. Objectivists claim that
                                        >one cannot be both a Christian and an Objectivist. I would be very
                                        >interested to learn where Objectivism meets Anthroposophy and how Ayn
                                        >Rand "got it wrong".
                                        >
                                        >Thank you so much!
                                        >
                                        >Jenny

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