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Re: [steiner] introduction

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  • golden3000997@cs.com
    Hi Ashley! Those questions were simply for you to ponder, not to answer to me or anyone else. Some issues perhaps to take up with your husband. Speaking of
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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      Hi Ashley! Those questions were simply for you to ponder, not to answer to me
      or anyone else. Some issues perhaps to take up with your husband.

      Speaking of your husband - OH, that explains a lot! : )

      I have been of the opinion for a long time that when they go to law school,
      it fries every brain cell they have except the ones they need to remember the
      laws. Have you tried...
      1. Laughing in his face
      2. Asking him questions in the same format
      3. Asking him "Do you speak to clients that way? Oh yeah? What are you REALLY
      doing to make money?"

      Does he speak to the children that way? His colleagues? His parents? Is he on
      some kind of power trip with you and thinks he's advanced? Is he just an
      arrogant SOB? What is he trying to prove?

      There must have been something there when you married him. Has he changed, or
      did you just not notice it before?

      If he really does this to everyone (which I find hard to believe) tell him he
      needs to go back to college and take Communications 101 - the remedial level!

      Nevertheless, if this is the major problem, and especially if it has not
      always been there, it is something that can be worked on. Remember, there
      will be something like this with every man you meet. Don't use someone else
      as an escape at this point, it will just confuse the issue. The other guy is
      not made out of soap, he won't wear out.

      You can e-mail me directly at Golden3000997@... if you want to. I am sure
      that plenty of other people will be giving you their feedback, too.

      Best wishes,
      Christine
    • Ashley Case
      What a deliciously self-indulgent excercise, to consider your list of questions! My IRL housewife friends *bristle* at the mention of my marital and personal
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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        >
        What a deliciously self-indulgent excercise, to consider your list of questions!  My IRL housewife friends *bristle* at the mention of my marital and personal problems.  I have attached my answers in a MS Word document.  Thanks again, Christine!  I look forward to knowing you better on this list.
         
        -------Original Message-------
         
        Date: Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:42:43 AM
        Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction
         
        Hello Ashley,

        Welcome to the wonderful world of Anthroposophy. :  ) I am sure that you will
        get many answers to your basic questions in the training program. Be patient.
        It's a lot to take in, even if it is a "remembering" from within your own
        spirit. But I would like to extend my friendship toward you, particularly in
        regard to the emotional situation that you are in right now. I cannot speak
        as an "Anthroposophist" or quote what "Herr Doktor hat gesprachen" in any way
        that would provide a definitive answer. But I am a 46 year old woman who has
        been involved with Steiner and Waldorf since the age of 16 and I have lived
        through two marriages and lots of relationships, so I have my own unique
        perspective. There are many levels and facets to any relationship, but the
        male/ female partnership is truly complex. There is the purely karmic aspect
        (what you may have been to each other in a past life or lives and what you
        have intended to accomplish together in this lifetime). There is the very
        practical (you have two children to take care of financially and
        emotionally). There is the mental and emotional which may (and will) range
        from intoxication to infuriation to total boredom with every shading in
        between.

        Whenever there is the question of abuse - physical, mental or emotional, I
        say - get out - now immediately, then try to figure it out. But it doesn't
        sound like you have these problems. It sounds like you are in the midst of a
        totally normal process of development in any marriage.

        In today's society, really only for the last one or two hundred years, we
        have been taught to place a great deal of emphasis and importance on ROMANCE!
        Every book, magazine, TV program, popular song and film advertises it. From
        the "stars in the skies" romance of the 30s, 40s, & 50s, to the "If it feels
        good, do it" of the 60s, 70s & 80s, to the "am I getting enough out of it?"
        of the 90s and today (My opinion here, entirely). We are taught to dress for
        it, scent ourselves (or unscent ourselves) for it, scheme for it, dream for
        it, wait for it, search for it, advertise for it, take risks for it and live
        for it.

        However.... at some point in one's life process, it really is important to
        sit back and take a real good LOOK at it! :  ). No matter what one does to
        get it, to keep it or because of it, no matter how wonderful, how tragic or
        how "karmic" it is, it is always temporary!

        Romance is built on a combination of fantasy, hormones, chemicals in the body
        and brain and an often complicated set of values that we have been raised
        with and either accepted or rebelled against. It has it's really valuable
        place in our lives and there is no problem in enjoying it fully when all of
        the elements work in a relatively healthy way. But it has it's cycles of ups
        and downs and one needs to balance it with basic realities of life.

        I do recommend "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." by John Gray. I
        think he has a really good way of looking at some of our communication
        problems and knowing about the differences can help overcome some of the
        miscommunication that can lead to irritation and resentment in a
        relationship. There are lots of other "very deep" books that I read during my
        struggling years, but they are not necessarily the kind of thing that can
        give on a real lift.

        I also heartily recommend Erma Bombeck's books - especially "Motherhood the
        Second Oldest Profession" and "A Marriage Made in Heaven - or Too Tired for
        an Affair" :  )
        It's really good to balance the heavy stuff with a good old sense of humor
        about it all.

        There is a really beautiful Christian Community pamphlet called Marriage. I
        will try to find a source for you, or else perhaps I can copy it or even type
        it here in the computer and forward it to you. I don't want to infringe on
        any copyright, but I am not sure who may have it. Dr. Starman may be able to
        help with that.

        So on three levels, here goes:
        1. Mental/ Spiritual
        Who were you before? Do you sense it was a good relationship in the past? Or
        troubled? Do you feel that you have to continually fight ongoing battles with
        each other? Do you feel that you were attracted to this person because you
        could really imagine doing something important together in this lifetime? Was
        the attraction strong, but relatively brief, and could it have been caused
        simply by your children wanting to be born to you? What are each of your life
        visions, your goals. Where do you see yourself in 5 years, in 10, in 20. What
        do you want to be doing? How do you want to be living. Try to get by yourself
        and answer/ ponder these questions in terms of "I" - not in terms of "we".
        See if you husband would be willing to do the same, alone, then give each
        other your written answers and ideas. Do they match? Do they relate at all?
        Are they both do-able if each supports the other? Or are they really very
        different and represent totally unrelated world views? Is there value in
        learning about each other's world views and just accepting them? Or is the
        conflict too great. I have know good marriages where the world views are
        diametrically opposed, but each person TOTALLY accepted the other without
        criticism and each allowed the other to live their own way and do their own
        thing. But that's not always easy to do.

        2. Emotional/ Familial
        Do you respect your partner as a parent? Do  you basically agree on issues
        regarding the children? Or does your partner cause you real concern in some
        way. Be careful as you explore Waldorf, etc. One can get really "gung-ho" and
        turn the other person off, or be really fanatical and rigid. I have a
        terrific article on that, too, that I will try to get you a copy of. Remember
        the sense of humor! Look at things from a point of view of balance, not
        perfection. The only exception here, as I stated before is abuse - with
        something like that, there is no compromise.

        What about your own emotions? Did you get married believing that you would be
        emotionally taken care of? LIstened to? Understood? Loved unconditionally?
        Are you happy with yourself when you are alone? (Not that a woman with young
        children is EVER alone - not even in the bathroom!) :  ) Do you want to feel
        needed? Do you want to be a full time nuturer? Do you want someone to respect
        you? Do you need this in order to respect yourself? Do you want to have fun?
        Are you having fun? Do you need to feel secure? Do you feel secure? Mars/
        Venus is very helpful here :  ) There is such a tremendous difference
        emotionally between men and women. It is good to know that if you don't feel
        that you are getting what you want, it's probably very normal.

        Is there more fulfillment, or more frustration in your role as wife and
        mother? Do you feel that you are recognized for more aspects of your
        personality or is this your total identity. It seems like it will last
        forever, but it won't. You will have many years to be someone else. Are you
        working on what that person will be? Do you have personal goals or quests? Or
        are you totally fixated on what your children will do/ become and what their
        lives will be like?

        Do you have a good relationship with your family of origin, or a troubled
        one? Are you trying to "show them" or be like them? Do you still need their
        approval? Do they approve? What about your partner's family? In today's
        complex and transient society, do you still feel there is value in giving
        children a stable family to start their life with? Do you feel that the
        family that you have created for them is basically healthy and happy? Can you
        enjoy living as a family with or without "romance"?

        3. Physical/ Economic
        It's tough enough today economically, with two working parents. Single
        parenthood is exhausting and difficult on many practical levels. Is there a
        sense of economic partnership in your relationship? Or is money the root of
        (almost) all squabbles? Does one partner feel "used" either for their money
        or their work? Is there any way to create more equilibrium? Do you value both
        kinds of contribution? Young adults are rarely ever given any real education
        in the handling of money. Our money styles can be incredibly different. A
        five dollar bill in one person's pocket is totally content to curl up and
        remain there. In my pocket, it parachutes out immediately! :  ) Do you each
        have your own money? Even $20.00 a week to "blow" on frivolities, or feed the
        piggybank of your soul? Do you sit down together and rationally budget and
        plan your common needs and wants? Do you need help with this? Most people do.
        Most people are only familiar with the money style they were raised with.
        Spend today, for tomorrow we (don't know and don't care). Or "There is never
        enough for... we can't afford.... don't waste it because....." Is the world
        an abundant place or is the wolf always at the door? The economic life is a
        really spiritual sphere, the world of the will, governed by very powerful
        forces, many of them unconcious. Open communication is very essential and
        again, balance and humor.

        Sex - there, thought that'd wake you up :  ) Isn't that what they magnetism
        is all about? It had to have been pretty good at one time, or else one or
        both of you were really desperate. If you really love someone, won't it just
        be great all the time? If you really love someone, you could never be
        attracted to anyone else, right? (wrong!) You know how sometimes you get a
        real craving for pizza, then the next weekend it's chinese food? Well, sex is
        an appetite also and pizza every night can get real boring, real fast!
        Oregano the only spice on your shelf? Have you every tried cooking with curry
        or dill or chili powder? Ever look at "Gourmet" magazine, or "Vegetarian
        Times?" It's fun to get new ideas once in a while, you know.

        There are going to be times when you have absolutely NO appetite, nothing can
        tempt you and forcing yourself to eat can really be a chore. Other times you
        can be really ravenous. Of course, it's very frustrating when you cook like
        mad, dream up a real banquet, then the other person just sits and picks at
        his food. :  ) Communicate. Learn to cook together. Take cooking classes.
        Find out what the other person really likes and just can't resist. Respect
        the other person's appetite cycles and learn to cook for yourself sometimes.
        But never go out to eat alone!!! Got it? Together, maybe, but not alone.

        Remember, the kids will not be little for very long. There is always Club Med
        (my sister takes her family frequently). Plan vacations and romantic get
        aways, for soon and for the long term future. Have something to look forward
        to. Fantasize. Accept your partner's fantasies without criticism. Some ideas
        may be new to you and unappealing, but if not harmful in someway, try to be
        open minded and accepting. You can accept that the other person has such
        fantasies, without necessarily agreeing to participate in reality.
        Participate in fantasy if necessary. You never know, you just might end up
        liking it, too someday.

        And remember - there is no "magic person" - someone who would be better, more
        attractive, etc. The next guy is just the same. You would have to start all
        over again, teaching and learning. You would get bored again in time. Your
        excitement and satisfaction is really all in your head. Unless he is really a
        lazy, selfish bum, he will get the hang of it eventually. If he IS a lazy,
        selfish bum, why the heck did you marry him in the first place? These days,
        we can test drive, you know!

        Laugh a lot, spice things up, enjoy finding out who YOU are as a person and
        what you can do and what you want to do. Enjoy being "Mom" while they are
        still willing to cuddle. Cuddle a lot! Relax, let things go. You don't have
        to "win" unless it involves the violation of your personal space (inner or
        outer). Accept each other. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage, a
        perfect parent, a perfect child, a perfect husband, a perfect wife. Have
        friends, get out and have fun. A tea party, a picnic, a bike ride. Use the
        power of fantasy to make it tea in a castle, a picnic in Timbuktu or a trip
        to Mars. Love your child within and protect her from harm. Look forward to
        the coming years - they just get better and better! REALLY! I LOVE my forties
        - and really am looking foward to my 80's. Do you want your children to be
        happy? Don't try to make them happy - just be happy yourself. They will learn
        only by example. You know the best way to get your child to learn to play the
        piano? Get a piano and take lessons yourself, practice every day and tell the
        kids that it's YOUR piano and they can't touch it! They'll be little Victor
        Borges in no time!! :  )

        Well, all this might not be very "Anthroposophical" but I hope one or two
        points may be of some help. Let's put the "Happy" back in "Happy Anniversary!"

        Lots of love,
        Christine


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      • Carl Jackson
        Hi Ashley and Christine, You remind me of all the reasons why I ve loved the Steiner people in my life. As a community of spiritual friends I ve always found
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 16, 2002
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          Hi Ashley and Christine,
           
                 You remind me of all the reasons why I've  loved the Steiner people in my life.  As a community of spiritual friends I've always found them frank , wholesome, open,  inspiring,  gentle yet passionate, and almost always uplifting to be around - both your posts left me with a smile and made me think - and even more amazingly got me to post instead of lurk!
           
                 Your situation, Ashley, has *some* similarities to my own, except that, being male,  a few of the perspectives are a little different.    I was haunted by your description of  the "spark" going out of your relationship - about 18 months ago the same thing led to the break-up of me and my de-facto, Gail,  of five years.  There is a particular type of sadness when a relationship that was full of life and vitality quietly ebbs away to nothingness.
           
                  I identify with some of both you and your husbands situation.  Perhaps my situation might add another angle of view on his.  Like him I was in a pressured job - I was a sales manager and had to do a lot of international travel.  I too would come home a sit in front of the TV.  I found the corporate world sufficiently stressful that I needed to mentally "anaesthetize" myself to recouperate enough to face the next day and the TV was just right for the job - it seemed less harmful than drinking.   We had talked about putting in a few very hard working years to get ourselves into a financially secure position   and I think I was mentally prepared to "tough it out" for that long - but over about 2 years of this we became distant and started to fight.  It seemed that one of the essential problems was that in a stressful job it is MUCH harder to find the time and energy for romance and passion - previously I'd put a lot more energy focussing on her and making her feel special and loved and making her laugh - now I had transferred that energy into our mutual goal of achieving financial security.    Perhaps the old saying "you marry the job too" applies both in your situation and mine.   I always found that when she expressed fear and concern about security issues, particularly about money,  I would react by putting in even longer hours at work to try and "do something" to fix the cause of the insecurity.  It is a perhaps part of the male protective instinct that when your mate feels insecure then all other matters become secondary until you restore that sense of security.  I wonder if any of that happens with you and your husband.  
           
                  Looking back on the situation with hindsight I guess I needed either a job that was compatable with my wife, or a wife that was compatable with my job. 
           
                 The issue of romance and passion is one I strive to understand more than I do - particularly from a spiritual point of view.  Steiner embraced both Christianity and Buddhism - and I was educated in a Waldorf school and later become a serious Buddhist for several years.  But it seems to me that there are quite different views on an issue like Passion between Christianity and Buddhism and I don't as yet know if and how Steiner resolves these.   Buddha taught that passion is a manifestation of craving and craving leads to suffering and blocks the path the Nirvana. He taught that we should be aware of passions arising within us without reacting to them so that the passions lose power and dissapate.  I remember attending a 10-day meditation course and at the end of each day people would ask the teacher questions.  One day a woman came up and asked what the problem was with passion and the teacher answered more or less as above, to which she replied "but I LIKE it!"  It really stuck in my mind that on some level passion matters  a bit more to women than to men - in that setting passion was look at as not really different to anger or envy - and you certainly wouldnt have seen any of the meditators get up and make a stand for envy or anger the way this woman did for passion.   On some level it seems like passion is largely an energy that flows from men to women - it leaves women feeling more energized but their men feeling less so.  From Christs owns "passion" we get an entirely different view - at golgotha passion seems to be an essential part of his spiritual transcendance. And the "mainstream" modern western view is that passion is a very positive thing.  The truth about passion is, I suspect, one of the deeper mysteries.
                 
          Carl
           
                 
           ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 9:18 AM
          Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction

          What a deliciously self-indulgent excercise, to consider your list of questions!  My IRL housewife friends *bristle* at the mention of my marital and personal problems.  I have attached my answers in a MS Word document.  Thanks again, Christine!  I look forward to knowing you better on this list.




        • Ashley Case
          Thanks, Carl. I do appreciate hearing the male perspective. I hope that you are back on your feet now, 18 months later. It made me sad to hear that you were
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 17, 2002
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            >
            Thanks, Carl.  I do appreciate hearing the male perspective.  I hope that you are back on your feet now, 18 months later.  It made me sad to hear that you were working on a common goal, and this drove you apart.
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            Date: Sunday, June 16, 2002 07:52:11 AM
            Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction
             
            Hi Ashley and Christine,
             
                   You remind me of all the reasons why I've  loved the Steiner people in my life.  As a community of spiritual friends I've always found them frank , wholesome, open,  inspiring,  gentle yet passionate, and almost always uplifting to be around - both your posts left me with a smile and made me think - and even more amazingly got me to post instead of lurk!
             
                   Your situation, Ashley, has *some* similarities to my own, except that, being male,  a few of the perspectives are a little different.    I was haunted by your description of  the "spark" going out of your relationship - about 18 months ago the same thing led to the break-up of me and my de-facto, Gail,  of five years.  There is a particular type of sadness when a relationship that was full of life and vitality quietly ebbs away to nothingness.
             
                    I identify with some of both you and your husbands situation.  Perhaps my situation might add another angle of view on his.  Like him I was in a pressured job - I was a sales manager and had to do a lot of international travel.  I too would come home a sit in front of the TV.  I found the corporate world sufficiently stressful that I needed to mentally "anaesthetize" myself to recouperate enough to face the next day and the TV was just right for the job - it seemed less harmful than drinking.   We had talked about putting in a few very hard working years to get ourselves into a financially secure position   and I think I was mentally prepared to "tough it out" for that long - but over about 2 years of this we became distant and started to fight.  It seemed that one of the essential problems was that in a stressful job it is MUCH harder to find the time and energy for romance and passion - previously I'd put a lot more energy focussing on her and making her feel special and loved and making her laugh - now I had transferred that energy into our mutual goal of achieving financial security.    Perhaps the old saying "you marry the job too" applies both in your situation and mine.   I always found that when she expressed fear and concern about security issues, particularly about money,  I would react by putting in even longer hours at work to try and "do something" to fix the cause of the insecurity.  It is a perhaps part of the male protective instinct that when your mate feels insecure then all other matters become secondary until you restore that sense of security.  I wonder if any of that happens with you and your husband.  
             
                    Looking back on the situation with hindsight I guess I needed either a job that was compatable with my wife, or a wife that was compatable with my job. 
             
                   The issue of romance and passion is one I strive to understand more than I do - particularly from a spiritual point of view.  Steiner embraced both Christianity and Buddhism - and I was educated in a Waldorf school and later become a serious Buddhist for several years.  But it seems to me that there are quite different views on an issue like Passion between Christianity and Buddhism and I don't as yet know if and how Steiner resolves these.   Buddha taught that passion is a manifestation of craving and craving leads to suffering and blocks the path the Nirvana. He taught that we should be aware of passions arising within us without reacting to them so that the passions lose power and dissapate.  I remember attending a 10-day meditation course and at the end of each day people would ask the teacher questions.  One day a woman came up and asked what the problem was with passion and the teacher answered more or less as above, to which she replied "but I LIKE it!"  It really stuck in my mind that on some level passion matters  a bit more to women than to men - in that setting passion was look at as not really different to anger or envy - and you certainly wouldnt have seen any of the meditators get up and make a stand for envy or anger the way this woman did for passion.   On some level it seems like passion is largely an energy that flows from men to women - it leaves women feeling more energized but their men feeling less so.  From Christs owns "passion" we get an entirely different view - at golgotha passion seems to be an essential part of his spiritual transcendance. And the "mainstream" modern western view is that passion is a very positive thing.  The truth about passion is, I suspect, one of the deeper mysteries.
                   
            Carl
             
                   
             ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 9:18 AM
            Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction

            What a deliciously self-indulgent excercise, to consider your list of questions!  My IRL housewife friends *bristle* at the mention of my marital and personal problems.  I have attached my answers in a MS Word document.  Thanks again, Christine!  I look forward to knowing you better on this list.





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          • golden3000997@cs.com
            Hi Carl, Oh boy... what am I going to DO with you kids!!! : ) You can have money, passion, love, peace and all at once. In our culture, we are usually raised
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 17, 2002
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              Hi Carl,

              Oh boy... what am I going to DO with you kids!!! : )

              You can have money, passion, love, peace and all at once. In our culture, we
              are usually raised to believe (I certainly was) that spirituality and
              sexuality are opposites. Well, sexual activity is an act of will. Making
              money is an act of will. Meditation is an act of will. Loving God is an act
              of will (I'll define this shortly). The will of the human being is his or her
              most unconcious and at the same time, most powerful soul force. Ever been up
              all night with indigestion? That's what happens when their is a disturbance
              in the unconcious will forces governing our metabolism. Not fun. But
              definitely more concious. Well, becoming concious of other will forces in our
              lives can be almost as painful. However, respecting them and learning to
              "feed" them properly can result in increased vitality and soul health.

              What is the real problem here? Some kind of spark missing? Some magical
              chemical that isn't being produced? Not enough of ......? Energy? Time? Love?
              Money?

              Nope.

              It is very, very simple - the lack of balance and rhythm in life. Somewhere
              (I can't remember where off hand, would have to look it up) Steiner said,
              "Rhythm replaces Strength."

              Let's say you want to play the piano. You could dream about it for years,
              listen to great recordings, read the biographies of great musicians and
              composers, get on lots of musical mailing lists, etc.. But if you really
              desire to participate, there would be some acts of will to accomplish -
              getting a piano (or keyboard), finding a teacher and going to lessons and
              ....are you ready for this?? Practicing!!!! Where all this gets you is
              dependent on a combination of natural ability and determined work. Some
              people, even after all this effort will let the whole thing dwindle away in a
              few months. Some people will find that they really were "born with" a talent
              that they never had put to the test before and they will go on to using it in
              unexpected ways in their life. Other people will learn enough to amuse
              themselves or their family and friends and will feel content with this. Etc.,
              etc and soforth..... : )

              Now consider this. Let's say you make the effort, get a piano, take lessons
              and are perfectly willing to practice regardless of how good or not so good
              you may become. But you do want to put in enough effort to make the whole
              thing worthwhile and get you at least to a competent level. Which would be
              better? Practicing all day, for 8 hours, every Saturday only? Or practicing
              every night of the week for half an hour? Which do you think would make for
              better progress?

              Yup, every day for half an hour. The rhythm of the daily practice allows the
              mind and the skill to develop at a healthy pace, each day's experience
              building on the one before.

              So, this lengthy example can apply to everything that a person might want to
              create or have happen in his or her life. A marriage? Enthusiasm - you read
              about it, see it in film & TV, talk about it, maybe see some bad examples and
              say " I can do better" maybe see some good examples and say " Gee that looks
              wonderful, I want that, too." The you meet THE ONE (after meeting lots of
              other "ones") OK, this one's a keeper - it's gonna be great (or else you got
              suckered into it, in which case we're not talking about will anymore). It's
              my SOULMATE!! My LIFE PARTNER!! My better half... my one and only... yada,
              yada, yada... you get the picture. You make the effort. You clean up nice.
              You figure out what he or she likes and get it/ do it/ watch it/ play
              it....... You do the bouncy-bouncy and oh do it feel good! (At least some of
              the time, or else - you got suckered - see above) OK, we're going for it, the
              rings, the dress, the gifts, the guests, et al. Now we done it - WOW. If
              only we were all Romeo and Juliet and we died right after our honeymoon, we
              would all have perfect marriages. Unfortunately......

              Hey, the energy lasts for a good while. The first year is great. Sure, a few
              battles and some real adjustments, but things still feel basically good.
              Practice? No problem - bring it on. Flowers, wine, candles, massage. Hey this
              marriage thing is not bad! Then fewer flowers, less wine, and "are you
              kidding, rub your feet? Do you know what kind of day I had???" Kids come.
              Jobs come and go. Friends and families come and go - usually the ones you
              want to come, go and the ones you want to go, come. But we got plans, we got
              dreams, we got goals. So we hitch our wills up by the bootstraps and plunge
              on. Some vacations, some interesting weekends, hey, we still know how to rock
              n roll.... : )

              Then eventually, we come to realize that things have really dwindled away.
              This marriage thing is getting pretty dusty over there in the corner. I
              really don't have the energy to practice tonight (been saying that for months
              now). Now and then we sit down and have a good long bang at it, but those
              Saturdays get fewer and fewer. Might as well sell the damn thing and get a
              home entertainment center instead. You do. Then one night, as you're sitting
              there watching (ALONE) you get this brilliant idea - "Hey, I'm gonna take up
              the guitar!!!"

              Is any thing here making sense?

              As for Steiner, Buddhism and Christianity - I really don't think he
              "embraced" them. I think he investigated them. And the kind of shallow
              wandering around in the puddles of spiritual knowledge that most people do
              today will never produce anything that will "TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD DO."
              Because it isn't about SHOULDS in the first place. Another "Herr Doktor"
              quote - from an old anthropop that I once knew is that a young woman came to
              Steiner and told him all about her problems or life situation. She concluded
              by asking "So, what should I do?" The only answer she got was, "My dear, the
              question is what WILL you do?"

              Read Herman Hesse's Siddharta. Understand that Gautama Buddha went to all
              phases of experience before he was ready for his bliss. He was an extreme
              ascetic (?) and an extreme materialist. The pendulum swings wildly in our
              lives from one to the other, little by little slowing down to a more moderate
              pace. For some, it just stops and for all intense and purposes their life is
              over. They have stopped trying and settle into a state of "quiet desperation"
              and wait to die. Others do wild things to keep the pendulum in motion,
              gambling, sex, drugs, one cult after another. Keep it moving, keep it moving.
              But there is another possibility. Do you know what a lemniskate is? a figure
              eight. In movement. Remember your Eurythmy, Carl? What if you were to take
              that pendulum and set it to swing in a lemniskate pattern. Sure, it would
              need a push now and then, but the rhythm would be a healthy one. There are
              energizing principles associated with it. They use it while creating
              homeopathic remedies. In and out, back and forth, breathing, moving,
              relating, healing, creating. Rhythmic movement, rhythmic breathing, rhythmic
              development. All nature lives by it and it governs them as law. As earthly
              creatures we are within its sway, but as spiritual human beings, we are not
              bound by it. We can choose (even unconciously) to ignore it, to defy it, to
              do our "own thing" in our own way. But it will have it's revenge, by its very
              absence in our lives. We will die, perhaps of illnesses created by our
              imbalances, knowing that we have not created what we came to create, we have
              not learned what we came to learn, we have not loved what we came to love.

              As for Christianity and sex? I think that will have to be for another time.
              Only by understanding the real nature of the Trinity can one understand the
              spiritual role of the male/ female energies, I believe.

              One more detail - it is NEVER - "That Person" - it is never "...something
              wrong with" (either you or them). The same cycle will repeat and repeat with
              each new person. You can go from Tin Pan Alley to Carnegie Hall, but you
              won't get any better music from the concert grand than you did from the old
              upright in your living room. It is your art alone that will be heard.

              Love,
              Christine
            • L APPLEBY
              Hello! I have just joined the Steiner group and would like to tell you a bit about myself. I am interested in Buddhism, Christianity and theosophy.. I am
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 27, 2009
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                Hello!

                I have just joined the Steiner group and would like to tell you a bit about myself.

                I am interested in Buddhism, Christianity and theosophy.. I am particularly keen on the writing of Alice Bailey. My spiritual experiences are of connection to the elements, healing worldwide and synchronicity. I experience a spirit which joins me to all mankind and which I can heal to bring the world to peace and harmony.  I would really like to understand this more.My background is more in the theories of Freud, Jung and Klein. Do you think Steiner has a place for such phenomena and what would his analysis be?

                Yours,
                Linda Appleby

                www.lindaappleby.com/connections    for 'Interconnection' CD
                lindaappleby128atbt.blog.co.uk

              • Durward Starman
                *******Welcome to the group, Linda. Well, if you have a background in Freud, you know that his orthodox scientific point of view rejected all spiritual
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 28, 2009
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                  *******Welcome to the group, Linda. Well, if you have a background in Freud, you know that his orthodox scientific point of view rejected all spiritual experiences as mere illusons, while his pupil Jung tried to go beyond those shackles on thinking. Steiner went much further than Jung--- so Jung is well-known in the world because he didn't go too far and stayed fairly acceptable to academia, where Steiner went too far for most 20th century academics to accept. But if one wants to understand spiritual things like Buddhism and Christianity, Jungian thought can only take you so far. I think working with what Steiner gave out can lead to much more understanding of ancient religions, as well as the spiritual path for today. Likewise, of all the people who worked out of theosophy, I'd say Steiner's contributions have been the most fruitful (the schools, farms, arts, anthroposophic medicine, etc.)
                   
                    Our list is seldom used. Feel free to start any discussion you like and perhaps people may join in---except, please, no discussion of politics, which has a negative effect on conversation on the internet, you may have seen!
                   
                     I mainly work with Astrosophy, the renewal of astrology, which is a multidimensional psychology as well as leading over into the physical dimension as well. For example, in case you haven't read about it yet, Steiner also revived the old idea of the 4 Elements as Jung did, but where Jung named them the "Intuitive", "Sensation" etc. 4 personality types, Steiner described 4 types of formative forces in nature which he called the 4 Ethers, and that each of these 4 temperaments or personalty types had a preponderance of one or another "ether": Warmth Ether, Light Ether, Sound Ether (also called Chemical or Number Ether---which is the one Freud's other pupil Reich discovered and called "orgone energy") and Life Ether. Along with inclining people to psychologically be a certain way, these also have physical effects--- so, for instance, what in past centuries were called "fiery" people or the "Choleric temperament" have a lot of Warmth Ether, and one characteristic of it is to contract things in space--- so cholerics tend to be small in stature. Hence the shortness of powerful leaders like Napoleon, Augustus, Hitler, etc.
                   
                  Starman

                  www.DrStarman.com


                   

                  To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                  From: l.appleby128@...
                  Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:45:25 +0000
                  Subject: [steiner] introduction

                   
                  Hello!

                  I have just joined the Steiner group and would like to tell you a bit about myself.

                  I am interested in Buddhism, Christianity and theosophy.. I am particularly keen on the writing of Alice Bailey. My spiritual experiences are of connection to the elements, healing worldwide and synchronicity. I experience a spirit which joins me to all mankind and which I can heal to bring the world to peace and harmony.  I would really like to understand this more.My background is more in the theories of Freud, Jung and Klein. Do you think Steiner has a place for such phenomena and what would his analysis be?

                  Yours,
                  Linda Appleby

                  www.lindaappleby. com/connections    for 'Interconnection' CD
                  lindaappleby128atbt .blog.co. uk




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                • robertsmason_99
                  ... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Alice Bailey was working under very dubious influences, to put it mildly. There is a direct line from her to
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 28, 2009
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                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, L APPLEBY <l.appleby128@...> wrote:
                    > . . . I am particularly keen on the writing of Alice Bailey. . . .

                    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Alice
                    Bailey was working under very dubious influences,
                    to put it mildly. There is a direct line from
                    her to Benjamin Creme's bogus "Maitreya". To
                    refer to my own words:
                    <http://www.altanthroinfo.9f.com/ahriman.htm#theemergenceofmaitreya>

                    Another word: *discernment*.

                    Robert Mason
                  • stephenm142
                    Are you familiar with Guenther Wachsmuth s Etheric Formative Forces Book and the discussion of the 4 Ethers in Earth and Man s evolution? I can post excerpts
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 28, 2009
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                      Are you familiar with Guenther Wachsmuth's "Etheric Formative Forces' Book and the discussion of the 4 Ethers in Earth and Man's evolution? I can post excerpts for discussion. I have scanned it and made a readable PDF eBook. Do you have respect for Wachsmuth's work along these lines? Do you know if he ever worked with the other Astrosophical great Willi Sucher?

                      - Stephen

                      ==========================
                      [Starman said:]
                      Steiner also revived the old idea of the 4 Elements as Jung did, but where Jung named them the "Intuitive", "Sensation" etc. 4 personality types, Steiner described 4 types of formative forces in nature which he called the 4 Ethers, and that each of these 4 temperaments or personalty types had a preponderance of one or another "ether": Warmth Ether, Light Ether, Sound Ether (also called Chemical or Number Ether---which is the one Freud's other pupil Reich discovered and called "orgone energy") and Life Ether. Along with inclining people to psychologically be a certain way, these also have physical effects---
                    • Durward Starman
                      *******Yes, in fact I sponsored a reprint of his book on the 50th anniversary of its publication in English (1936), when I found out it had been out of print
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 28, 2009
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                        *******Yes, in fact I sponsored a reprint of his book on the 50th anniversary of its publication in English (1936), when I found out it had been out of print ever since, apparently because of the split in the Society where Wachsmuth and Ita Wegman and the others went to war with each other. It's a very important book which I believe is once again out of print. I have his "Reincarnation As A Phenomenon of Metamorphosis" also. You could post the book to our Files section if you wish.
                         
                           Somehow, Wachsmuth and Albert Steffen wound up in one faction 10 years after Steiner's death and Ita Wegman and Dr. Elizabeth Vreede wound up on the other. The two women were kicked out of the Society even though they continued to live right down the street from the Goetheanum and carry on their work. (Both were Dutch, and the Anthroposophical Society of Holland separated itself in protest over their treatment. Dr. Vreede was the head of the Mathematical-Astronomical Section, and had been trained directly by Steiner at reading horoscopes, as can be seen by their remarks to each other in the Curative Education lectures. After she was expelled, that work suffered. Her 2 assistants were Joachim Schultze, author of "Movements and Rythms of the Stars", and Willi Sucher. Neither were fired, but not long afterwards Sucher left for California, convinced from these experiences that those at the Goetheanum would not likely start a new astrology, so he worked on it and published his books himself.
                         
                           The art and science of Astrosophy has suffered from those events of 1935, and we need to pick up and go forward now.
                         
                        -starman

                        www.DrStarman.com


                         

                        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                        From: celestial_vision@...
                        Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:26:14 +0000
                        Subject: [steiner] Re: introduction/welcome

                         
                        Are you familiar with Guenther Wachsmuth's "Etheric Formative Forces' Book and the discussion of the 4 Ethers in Earth and Man's evolution? I can post excerpts for discussion. I have scanned it and made a readable PDF eBook. Do you have respect for Wachsmuth's work along these lines? Do you know if he ever worked with the other Astrosophical great Willi Sucher?

                        - Stephen

                        ============ ========= =====
                        [Starman said:]
                        Steiner also revived the old idea of the 4 Elements as Jung did, but where Jung named them the "Intuitive", "Sensation" etc. 4 personality types, Steiner described 4 types of formative forces in nature which he called the 4 Ethers, and that each of these 4 temperaments or personalty types had a preponderance of one or another "ether": Warmth Ether, Light Ether, Sound Ether (also called Chemical or Number Ether---which is the one Freud's other pupil Reich discovered and called "orgone energy") and Life Ether. Along with inclining people to psychologically be a certain way, these also have physical effects---




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                      • stephenm142
                        Very interesting post Starman. If it was reprinted in 1986 then I have no evidence of that, and I have done extensive research, do you have a publisher or any
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 31, 2009
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                          Very interesting post Starman.
                          If it was reprinted in 1986 then I have no evidence of that, and I have done extensive research, do you have a publisher or any specific information so that I might find it? As you know any reprint must be in color because of all the original color diagrams that make no sense in black and white. I am trying to get the publisher at Temple Lodge to reprint it now. I believe it is important, and I am trying to study it.
                          I just read the memorandum which details the March 27/28 GA meeting where Vreede, Wegman, all of the Dutch and much of the English society let by Kauffman (Adams) were booted. Zeylmans was booted as well and Walter Stein's mischievousness was all over the matter. It's a very sad commentary and a great wonder that the society survived in any shape or form whatsoever(I know there are those who say it didn't).
                          I now have the original typescript publications Man and the Stars, etc by Sucher that I will also scan and post if anyone is interested. As far as posting the Wachsmuth Formative forces book, it came out very large and I am in the process of trying to use Adobe to trim the size of the pdf - is there a file size limit?
                          - Stephen


                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > *******Yes, in fact I sponsored a reprint of his book on the 50th anniversary of its publication in English (1936), when I found out it had been out of print ever since, apparently because of the split in the Society where Wachsmuth and Ita Wegman and the others went to war with each other. It's a very important book which I believe is once again out of print. I have his "Reincarnation As A Phenomenon of Metamorphosis" also. You could post the book to our Files section if you wish.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Somehow, Wachsmuth and Albert Steffen wound up in one faction 10 years after Steiner's death and Ita Wegman and Dr. Elizabeth Vreede wound up on the other. The two women were kicked out of the Society even though they continued to live right down the street from the Goetheanum and carry on their work. (Both were Dutch, and the Anthroposophical Society of Holland separated itself in protest over their treatment. Dr. Vreede was the head of the Mathematical-Astronomical Section, and had been trained directly by Steiner at reading horoscopes, as can be seen by their remarks to each other in the Curative Education lectures. After she was expelled, that work suffered. Her 2 assistants were Joachim Schultze, author of "Movements and Rythms of the Stars", and Willi Sucher. Neither were fired, but not long afterwards Sucher left for California, convinced from these experiences that those at the Goetheanum would not likely start a new astrology, so he worked on it and published his books himself.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The art and science of Astrosophy has suffered from those events of 1935, and we need to pick up and go forward now.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -starman
                          >
                          > www.DrStarman.com
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