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Re: [steiner] introduction

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    In a message dated 6/15/2002 11:35:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Welcome to the Steiner List, Ashley. I m sure we have lots of other newcomers here. The
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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      In a message dated 6/15/2002 11:35:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashley.case@... writes:



      Hello, all.  My name is Ashley and I live in Los Angeles.  I got the info for this group at anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, from Dr. Starman.  I am in the Waldorf Teacher Training program right now, and I'm a newbie at Steiner literature.  I have two kids, ages 3 and 1.





      Welcome to the Steiner List, Ashley. I'm sure we have lots of other newcomers here.

      The list did a study online at the 12 Holy Nights and has been quiet since then. Why don't you just say what you're interested in, great or small, and perhaps others can share what they know.

      Dr. Starman
    • Ashley Case
      Okay. I am currently intested in the basics like understanding the four parts to the human being; the four incarnations of earth; the significance of Christ
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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        >
        Okay.  I am currently intested in the basics like understanding the four parts to the human being; the four incarnations of earth; the significance of Christ in Anthroposophy; nutritional implications of Anthroposophy; the four ethers; four temperaments; the notion of threefoldness vs. duality .. basically the foundations of an anthroposophical world view.
         
        I am currently struggling with gaining some emotional maturity in my marriage.  Today is our 6 year wedding anniversary, and we are in an amicable separation.  The "spark" is gone (has been for a long time, but the two babies have been distracting enough to defer this issue) and I feel myself wanting to run; to start over with a new love.  I am struggling with the idea of honoring my commitment vs. honoring my feelings.
         
        I'd love feedback on these issues!
         
        -------Original Message-------
         
        Date: Saturday, June 15, 2002 08:54:44 AM
        Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction
         
        In a message dated 6/15/2002 11:35:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashley.case@... writes:



        Hello, all.  My name is Ashley and I live in Los Angeles.  I got the info for this group at anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, from Dr. Starman.  I am in the Waldorf Teacher Training program right now, and I'm a newbie at Steiner literature.  I have two kids, ages 3 and 1.





        Welcome to the Steiner List, Ashley. I'm sure we have lots of other newcomers here.

        The list did a study online at the 12 Holy Nights and has been quiet since then. Why don't you just say what you're interested in, great or small, and perhaps others can share what they know.

        Dr. Starman

        Post to steiner@egroups.com

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com

        Search the archives of the group at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

        Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
        http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
         
      • golden3000997@cs.com
        Hello Ashley, Welcome to the wonderful world of Anthroposophy. : ) I am sure that you will get many answers to your basic questions in the training program.
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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          Hello Ashley,

          Welcome to the wonderful world of Anthroposophy. : ) I am sure that you will
          get many answers to your basic questions in the training program. Be patient.
          It's a lot to take in, even if it is a "remembering" from within your own
          spirit. But I would like to extend my friendship toward you, particularly in
          regard to the emotional situation that you are in right now. I cannot speak
          as an "Anthroposophist" or quote what "Herr Doktor hat gesprachen" in any way
          that would provide a definitive answer. But I am a 46 year old woman who has
          been involved with Steiner and Waldorf since the age of 16 and I have lived
          through two marriages and lots of relationships, so I have my own unique
          perspective. There are many levels and facets to any relationship, but the
          male/ female partnership is truly complex. There is the purely karmic aspect
          (what you may have been to each other in a past life or lives and what you
          have intended to accomplish together in this lifetime). There is the very
          practical (you have two children to take care of financially and
          emotionally). There is the mental and emotional which may (and will) range
          from intoxication to infuriation to total boredom with every shading in
          between.

          Whenever there is the question of abuse - physical, mental or emotional, I
          say - get out - now immediately, then try to figure it out. But it doesn't
          sound like you have these problems. It sounds like you are in the midst of a
          totally normal process of development in any marriage.

          In today's society, really only for the last one or two hundred years, we
          have been taught to place a great deal of emphasis and importance on ROMANCE!
          Every book, magazine, TV program, popular song and film advertises it. From
          the "stars in the skies" romance of the 30s, 40s, & 50s, to the "If it feels
          good, do it" of the 60s, 70s & 80s, to the "am I getting enough out of it?"
          of the 90s and today (My opinion here, entirely). We are taught to dress for
          it, scent ourselves (or unscent ourselves) for it, scheme for it, dream for
          it, wait for it, search for it, advertise for it, take risks for it and live
          for it.

          However.... at some point in one's life process, it really is important to
          sit back and take a real good LOOK at it! : ). No matter what one does to
          get it, to keep it or because of it, no matter how wonderful, how tragic or
          how "karmic" it is, it is always temporary!

          Romance is built on a combination of fantasy, hormones, chemicals in the body
          and brain and an often complicated set of values that we have been raised
          with and either accepted or rebelled against. It has it's really valuable
          place in our lives and there is no problem in enjoying it fully when all of
          the elements work in a relatively healthy way. But it has it's cycles of ups
          and downs and one needs to balance it with basic realities of life.

          I do recommend "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." by John Gray. I
          think he has a really good way of looking at some of our communication
          problems and knowing about the differences can help overcome some of the
          miscommunication that can lead to irritation and resentment in a
          relationship. There are lots of other "very deep" books that I read during my
          struggling years, but they are not necessarily the kind of thing that can
          give on a real lift.

          I also heartily recommend Erma Bombeck's books - especially "Motherhood the
          Second Oldest Profession" and "A Marriage Made in Heaven - or Too Tired for
          an Affair" : )
          It's really good to balance the heavy stuff with a good old sense of humor
          about it all.

          There is a really beautiful Christian Community pamphlet called Marriage. I
          will try to find a source for you, or else perhaps I can copy it or even type
          it here in the computer and forward it to you. I don't want to infringe on
          any copyright, but I am not sure who may have it. Dr. Starman may be able to
          help with that.

          So on three levels, here goes:
          1. Mental/ Spiritual
          Who were you before? Do you sense it was a good relationship in the past? Or
          troubled? Do you feel that you have to continually fight ongoing battles with
          each other? Do you feel that you were attracted to this person because you
          could really imagine doing something important together in this lifetime? Was
          the attraction strong, but relatively brief, and could it have been caused
          simply by your children wanting to be born to you? What are each of your life
          visions, your goals. Where do you see yourself in 5 years, in 10, in 20. What
          do you want to be doing? How do you want to be living. Try to get by yourself
          and answer/ ponder these questions in terms of "I" - not in terms of "we".
          See if you husband would be willing to do the same, alone, then give each
          other your written answers and ideas. Do they match? Do they relate at all?
          Are they both do-able if each supports the other? Or are they really very
          different and represent totally unrelated world views? Is there value in
          learning about each other's world views and just accepting them? Or is the
          conflict too great. I have know good marriages where the world views are
          diametrically opposed, but each person TOTALLY accepted the other without
          criticism and each allowed the other to live their own way and do their own
          thing. But that's not always easy to do.

          2. Emotional/ Familial
          Do you respect your partner as a parent? Do you basically agree on issues
          regarding the children? Or does your partner cause you real concern in some
          way. Be careful as you explore Waldorf, etc. One can get really "gung-ho" and
          turn the other person off, or be really fanatical and rigid. I have a
          terrific article on that, too, that I will try to get you a copy of. Remember
          the sense of humor! Look at things from a point of view of balance, not
          perfection. The only exception here, as I stated before is abuse - with
          something like that, there is no compromise.

          What about your own emotions? Did you get married believing that you would be
          emotionally taken care of? LIstened to? Understood? Loved unconditionally?
          Are you happy with yourself when you are alone? (Not that a woman with young
          children is EVER alone - not even in the bathroom!) : ) Do you want to feel
          needed? Do you want to be a full time nuturer? Do you want someone to respect
          you? Do you need this in order to respect yourself? Do you want to have fun?
          Are you having fun? Do you need to feel secure? Do you feel secure? Mars/
          Venus is very helpful here : ) There is such a tremendous difference
          emotionally between men and women. It is good to know that if you don't feel
          that you are getting what you want, it's probably very normal.

          Is there more fulfillment, or more frustration in your role as wife and
          mother? Do you feel that you are recognized for more aspects of your
          personality or is this your total identity. It seems like it will last
          forever, but it won't. You will have many years to be someone else. Are you
          working on what that person will be? Do you have personal goals or quests? Or
          are you totally fixated on what your children will do/ become and what their
          lives will be like?

          Do you have a good relationship with your family of origin, or a troubled
          one? Are you trying to "show them" or be like them? Do you still need their
          approval? Do they approve? What about your partner's family? In today's
          complex and transient society, do you still feel there is value in giving
          children a stable family to start their life with? Do you feel that the
          family that you have created for them is basically healthy and happy? Can you
          enjoy living as a family with or without "romance"?

          3. Physical/ Economic
          It's tough enough today economically, with two working parents. Single
          parenthood is exhausting and difficult on many practical levels. Is there a
          sense of economic partnership in your relationship? Or is money the root of
          (almost) all squabbles? Does one partner feel "used" either for their money
          or their work? Is there any way to create more equilibrium? Do you value both
          kinds of contribution? Young adults are rarely ever given any real education
          in the handling of money. Our money styles can be incredibly different. A
          five dollar bill in one person's pocket is totally content to curl up and
          remain there. In my pocket, it parachutes out immediately! : ) Do you each
          have your own money? Even $20.00 a week to "blow" on frivolities, or feed the
          piggybank of your soul? Do you sit down together and rationally budget and
          plan your common needs and wants? Do you need help with this? Most people do.
          Most people are only familiar with the money style they were raised with.
          Spend today, for tomorrow we (don't know and don't care). Or "There is never
          enough for... we can't afford.... don't waste it because....." Is the world
          an abundant place or is the wolf always at the door? The economic life is a
          really spiritual sphere, the world of the will, governed by very powerful
          forces, many of them unconcious. Open communication is very essential and
          again, balance and humor.

          Sex - there, thought that'd wake you up : ) Isn't that what they magnetism
          is all about? It had to have been pretty good at one time, or else one or
          both of you were really desperate. If you really love someone, won't it just
          be great all the time? If you really love someone, you could never be
          attracted to anyone else, right? (wrong!) You know how sometimes you get a
          real craving for pizza, then the next weekend it's chinese food? Well, sex is
          an appetite also and pizza every night can get real boring, real fast!
          Oregano the only spice on your shelf? Have you every tried cooking with curry
          or dill or chili powder? Ever look at "Gourmet" magazine, or "Vegetarian
          Times?" It's fun to get new ideas once in a while, you know.

          There are going to be times when you have absolutely NO appetite, nothing can
          tempt you and forcing yourself to eat can really be a chore. Other times you
          can be really ravenous. Of course, it's very frustrating when you cook like
          mad, dream up a real banquet, then the other person just sits and picks at
          his food. : ) Communicate. Learn to cook together. Take cooking classes.
          Find out what the other person really likes and just can't resist. Respect
          the other person's appetite cycles and learn to cook for yourself sometimes.
          But never go out to eat alone!!! Got it? Together, maybe, but not alone.

          Remember, the kids will not be little for very long. There is always Club Med
          (my sister takes her family frequently). Plan vacations and romantic get
          aways, for soon and for the long term future. Have something to look forward
          to. Fantasize. Accept your partner's fantasies without criticism. Some ideas
          may be new to you and unappealing, but if not harmful in someway, try to be
          open minded and accepting. You can accept that the other person has such
          fantasies, without necessarily agreeing to participate in reality.
          Participate in fantasy if necessary. You never know, you just might end up
          liking it, too someday.

          And remember - there is no "magic person" - someone who would be better, more
          attractive, etc. The next guy is just the same. You would have to start all
          over again, teaching and learning. You would get bored again in time. Your
          excitement and satisfaction is really all in your head. Unless he is really a
          lazy, selfish bum, he will get the hang of it eventually. If he IS a lazy,
          selfish bum, why the heck did you marry him in the first place? These days,
          we can test drive, you know!

          Laugh a lot, spice things up, enjoy finding out who YOU are as a person and
          what you can do and what you want to do. Enjoy being "Mom" while they are
          still willing to cuddle. Cuddle a lot! Relax, let things go. You don't have
          to "win" unless it involves the violation of your personal space (inner or
          outer). Accept each other. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage, a
          perfect parent, a perfect child, a perfect husband, a perfect wife. Have
          friends, get out and have fun. A tea party, a picnic, a bike ride. Use the
          power of fantasy to make it tea in a castle, a picnic in Timbuktu or a trip
          to Mars. Love your child within and protect her from harm. Look forward to
          the coming years - they just get better and better! REALLY! I LOVE my forties
          - and really am looking foward to my 80's. Do you want your children to be
          happy? Don't try to make them happy - just be happy yourself. They will learn
          only by example. You know the best way to get your child to learn to play the
          piano? Get a piano and take lessons yourself, practice every day and tell the
          kids that it's YOUR piano and they can't touch it! They'll be little Victor
          Borges in no time!! : )

          Well, all this might not be very "Anthroposophical" but I hope one or two
          points may be of some help. Let's put the "Happy" back in "Happy Anniversary!"

          Lots of love,
          Christine
        • Ashley Case
          thank you, christine! i will respond in full tonight after i get my kids to bed, LOL. is it okay for me to answer such detailed questions in the open forum
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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            >
            thank you, christine!  i will respond in full tonight after i get my kids to bed, LOL.  is it okay for me to answer such detailed questions in the open forum here, or should i take it private?  i'd hate to hog the group or break group etiquette.
             
            let me just vent for a moment, though.  usually every saturday i am away all day at my waldorf teacher training.  we are on break for the summer now, and by 9:00 this morning i had already thoroughly remembered why i am separated from my husband.  his multiple-choice conversational style just makes me sick.  he has already admitted that he speaks this way so that he can have the correct answer to his credit.  i draw a breath to answer him, and the question has already evolved to B and C .. so i exhale and refuse to answer.  he has many forms of this behavior .  let me mention that is is an attorney (Columbia/Stanford educated).
             
            i'm on my way out to a baby shower now but will reply again later.  thanks!
          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            ... *******It won t be hogging the group. Like the Anthroposophical Society, it doesn t exist for us to meet its standards, but to serve US in our spiritual
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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              In a message dated Sat, 15 Jun 2002 2:23:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashley.case@... writes:

              > . is it okay for me to answer such detailed questions in the open forum here, or should i take it private? i'd hate to
              > hog the group or break group etiquette.

              *******It won't be "hogging" the group. Like the Anthroposophical Society, it doesn't exist for us to meet its standards, but to serve US in our spiritual path.

              Starman
            • Ashley Case
              Thanks, Doc . I ll be looking forward to it for my free time tonight. Meanwhile, I am *not* liking the onset of summer. I love autumn. ... From:
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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                >
                Thanks, Doc .  I'll be looking forward to it for my free time tonight.
                 
                Meanwhile, I am *not* liking the onset of summer.  I love autumn.
                 
                -------Original Message-------
                 
                Date: Saturday, June 15, 2002 01:53:34 PM
                Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction
                 
                In a message dated Sat, 15 Jun 2002  2:23:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashley.case@... writes:

                > . 
                is it okay for me to answer such detailed questions in the open forum here, or should i take it private?  i'd hate to
                > hog the
                group or break group etiquette.

                *******It won't be "hogging" the group. Like the Anthroposophical Society, it doesn't exist for us to meet its standards, but to serve US in our spiritual path.

                Starman

                Post to steiner@egroups.com

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com

                Search the archives of the group at:
                http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

                Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                 
              • golden3000997@cs.com
                Hi Ashley! Those questions were simply for you to ponder, not to answer to me or anyone else. Some issues perhaps to take up with your husband. Speaking of
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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                  Hi Ashley! Those questions were simply for you to ponder, not to answer to me
                  or anyone else. Some issues perhaps to take up with your husband.

                  Speaking of your husband - OH, that explains a lot! : )

                  I have been of the opinion for a long time that when they go to law school,
                  it fries every brain cell they have except the ones they need to remember the
                  laws. Have you tried...
                  1. Laughing in his face
                  2. Asking him questions in the same format
                  3. Asking him "Do you speak to clients that way? Oh yeah? What are you REALLY
                  doing to make money?"

                  Does he speak to the children that way? His colleagues? His parents? Is he on
                  some kind of power trip with you and thinks he's advanced? Is he just an
                  arrogant SOB? What is he trying to prove?

                  There must have been something there when you married him. Has he changed, or
                  did you just not notice it before?

                  If he really does this to everyone (which I find hard to believe) tell him he
                  needs to go back to college and take Communications 101 - the remedial level!

                  Nevertheless, if this is the major problem, and especially if it has not
                  always been there, it is something that can be worked on. Remember, there
                  will be something like this with every man you meet. Don't use someone else
                  as an escape at this point, it will just confuse the issue. The other guy is
                  not made out of soap, he won't wear out.

                  You can e-mail me directly at Golden3000997@... if you want to. I am sure
                  that plenty of other people will be giving you their feedback, too.

                  Best wishes,
                  Christine
                • Ashley Case
                  What a deliciously self-indulgent excercise, to consider your list of questions! My IRL housewife friends *bristle* at the mention of my marital and personal
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 15, 2002
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                    >
                    What a deliciously self-indulgent excercise, to consider your list of questions!  My IRL housewife friends *bristle* at the mention of my marital and personal problems.  I have attached my answers in a MS Word document.  Thanks again, Christine!  I look forward to knowing you better on this list.
                     
                    -------Original Message-------
                     
                    Date: Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:42:43 AM
                    Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction
                     
                    Hello Ashley,

                    Welcome to the wonderful world of Anthroposophy. :  ) I am sure that you will
                    get many answers to your basic questions in the training program. Be patient.
                    It's a lot to take in, even if it is a "remembering" from within your own
                    spirit. But I would like to extend my friendship toward you, particularly in
                    regard to the emotional situation that you are in right now. I cannot speak
                    as an "Anthroposophist" or quote what "Herr Doktor hat gesprachen" in any way
                    that would provide a definitive answer. But I am a 46 year old woman who has
                    been involved with Steiner and Waldorf since the age of 16 and I have lived
                    through two marriages and lots of relationships, so I have my own unique
                    perspective. There are many levels and facets to any relationship, but the
                    male/ female partnership is truly complex. There is the purely karmic aspect
                    (what you may have been to each other in a past life or lives and what you
                    have intended to accomplish together in this lifetime). There is the very
                    practical (you have two children to take care of financially and
                    emotionally). There is the mental and emotional which may (and will) range
                    from intoxication to infuriation to total boredom with every shading in
                    between.

                    Whenever there is the question of abuse - physical, mental or emotional, I
                    say - get out - now immediately, then try to figure it out. But it doesn't
                    sound like you have these problems. It sounds like you are in the midst of a
                    totally normal process of development in any marriage.

                    In today's society, really only for the last one or two hundred years, we
                    have been taught to place a great deal of emphasis and importance on ROMANCE!
                    Every book, magazine, TV program, popular song and film advertises it. From
                    the "stars in the skies" romance of the 30s, 40s, & 50s, to the "If it feels
                    good, do it" of the 60s, 70s & 80s, to the "am I getting enough out of it?"
                    of the 90s and today (My opinion here, entirely). We are taught to dress for
                    it, scent ourselves (or unscent ourselves) for it, scheme for it, dream for
                    it, wait for it, search for it, advertise for it, take risks for it and live
                    for it.

                    However.... at some point in one's life process, it really is important to
                    sit back and take a real good LOOK at it! :  ). No matter what one does to
                    get it, to keep it or because of it, no matter how wonderful, how tragic or
                    how "karmic" it is, it is always temporary!

                    Romance is built on a combination of fantasy, hormones, chemicals in the body
                    and brain and an often complicated set of values that we have been raised
                    with and either accepted or rebelled against. It has it's really valuable
                    place in our lives and there is no problem in enjoying it fully when all of
                    the elements work in a relatively healthy way. But it has it's cycles of ups
                    and downs and one needs to balance it with basic realities of life.

                    I do recommend "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." by John Gray. I
                    think he has a really good way of looking at some of our communication
                    problems and knowing about the differences can help overcome some of the
                    miscommunication that can lead to irritation and resentment in a
                    relationship. There are lots of other "very deep" books that I read during my
                    struggling years, but they are not necessarily the kind of thing that can
                    give on a real lift.

                    I also heartily recommend Erma Bombeck's books - especially "Motherhood the
                    Second Oldest Profession" and "A Marriage Made in Heaven - or Too Tired for
                    an Affair" :  )
                    It's really good to balance the heavy stuff with a good old sense of humor
                    about it all.

                    There is a really beautiful Christian Community pamphlet called Marriage. I
                    will try to find a source for you, or else perhaps I can copy it or even type
                    it here in the computer and forward it to you. I don't want to infringe on
                    any copyright, but I am not sure who may have it. Dr. Starman may be able to
                    help with that.

                    So on three levels, here goes:
                    1. Mental/ Spiritual
                    Who were you before? Do you sense it was a good relationship in the past? Or
                    troubled? Do you feel that you have to continually fight ongoing battles with
                    each other? Do you feel that you were attracted to this person because you
                    could really imagine doing something important together in this lifetime? Was
                    the attraction strong, but relatively brief, and could it have been caused
                    simply by your children wanting to be born to you? What are each of your life
                    visions, your goals. Where do you see yourself in 5 years, in 10, in 20. What
                    do you want to be doing? How do you want to be living. Try to get by yourself
                    and answer/ ponder these questions in terms of "I" - not in terms of "we".
                    See if you husband would be willing to do the same, alone, then give each
                    other your written answers and ideas. Do they match? Do they relate at all?
                    Are they both do-able if each supports the other? Or are they really very
                    different and represent totally unrelated world views? Is there value in
                    learning about each other's world views and just accepting them? Or is the
                    conflict too great. I have know good marriages where the world views are
                    diametrically opposed, but each person TOTALLY accepted the other without
                    criticism and each allowed the other to live their own way and do their own
                    thing. But that's not always easy to do.

                    2. Emotional/ Familial
                    Do you respect your partner as a parent? Do  you basically agree on issues
                    regarding the children? Or does your partner cause you real concern in some
                    way. Be careful as you explore Waldorf, etc. One can get really "gung-ho" and
                    turn the other person off, or be really fanatical and rigid. I have a
                    terrific article on that, too, that I will try to get you a copy of. Remember
                    the sense of humor! Look at things from a point of view of balance, not
                    perfection. The only exception here, as I stated before is abuse - with
                    something like that, there is no compromise.

                    What about your own emotions? Did you get married believing that you would be
                    emotionally taken care of? LIstened to? Understood? Loved unconditionally?
                    Are you happy with yourself when you are alone? (Not that a woman with young
                    children is EVER alone - not even in the bathroom!) :  ) Do you want to feel
                    needed? Do you want to be a full time nuturer? Do you want someone to respect
                    you? Do you need this in order to respect yourself? Do you want to have fun?
                    Are you having fun? Do you need to feel secure? Do you feel secure? Mars/
                    Venus is very helpful here :  ) There is such a tremendous difference
                    emotionally between men and women. It is good to know that if you don't feel
                    that you are getting what you want, it's probably very normal.

                    Is there more fulfillment, or more frustration in your role as wife and
                    mother? Do you feel that you are recognized for more aspects of your
                    personality or is this your total identity. It seems like it will last
                    forever, but it won't. You will have many years to be someone else. Are you
                    working on what that person will be? Do you have personal goals or quests? Or
                    are you totally fixated on what your children will do/ become and what their
                    lives will be like?

                    Do you have a good relationship with your family of origin, or a troubled
                    one? Are you trying to "show them" or be like them? Do you still need their
                    approval? Do they approve? What about your partner's family? In today's
                    complex and transient society, do you still feel there is value in giving
                    children a stable family to start their life with? Do you feel that the
                    family that you have created for them is basically healthy and happy? Can you
                    enjoy living as a family with or without "romance"?

                    3. Physical/ Economic
                    It's tough enough today economically, with two working parents. Single
                    parenthood is exhausting and difficult on many practical levels. Is there a
                    sense of economic partnership in your relationship? Or is money the root of
                    (almost) all squabbles? Does one partner feel "used" either for their money
                    or their work? Is there any way to create more equilibrium? Do you value both
                    kinds of contribution? Young adults are rarely ever given any real education
                    in the handling of money. Our money styles can be incredibly different. A
                    five dollar bill in one person's pocket is totally content to curl up and
                    remain there. In my pocket, it parachutes out immediately! :  ) Do you each
                    have your own money? Even $20.00 a week to "blow" on frivolities, or feed the
                    piggybank of your soul? Do you sit down together and rationally budget and
                    plan your common needs and wants? Do you need help with this? Most people do.
                    Most people are only familiar with the money style they were raised with.
                    Spend today, for tomorrow we (don't know and don't care). Or "There is never
                    enough for... we can't afford.... don't waste it because....." Is the world
                    an abundant place or is the wolf always at the door? The economic life is a
                    really spiritual sphere, the world of the will, governed by very powerful
                    forces, many of them unconcious. Open communication is very essential and
                    again, balance and humor.

                    Sex - there, thought that'd wake you up :  ) Isn't that what they magnetism
                    is all about? It had to have been pretty good at one time, or else one or
                    both of you were really desperate. If you really love someone, won't it just
                    be great all the time? If you really love someone, you could never be
                    attracted to anyone else, right? (wrong!) You know how sometimes you get a
                    real craving for pizza, then the next weekend it's chinese food? Well, sex is
                    an appetite also and pizza every night can get real boring, real fast!
                    Oregano the only spice on your shelf? Have you every tried cooking with curry
                    or dill or chili powder? Ever look at "Gourmet" magazine, or "Vegetarian
                    Times?" It's fun to get new ideas once in a while, you know.

                    There are going to be times when you have absolutely NO appetite, nothing can
                    tempt you and forcing yourself to eat can really be a chore. Other times you
                    can be really ravenous. Of course, it's very frustrating when you cook like
                    mad, dream up a real banquet, then the other person just sits and picks at
                    his food. :  ) Communicate. Learn to cook together. Take cooking classes.
                    Find out what the other person really likes and just can't resist. Respect
                    the other person's appetite cycles and learn to cook for yourself sometimes.
                    But never go out to eat alone!!! Got it? Together, maybe, but not alone.

                    Remember, the kids will not be little for very long. There is always Club Med
                    (my sister takes her family frequently). Plan vacations and romantic get
                    aways, for soon and for the long term future. Have something to look forward
                    to. Fantasize. Accept your partner's fantasies without criticism. Some ideas
                    may be new to you and unappealing, but if not harmful in someway, try to be
                    open minded and accepting. You can accept that the other person has such
                    fantasies, without necessarily agreeing to participate in reality.
                    Participate in fantasy if necessary. You never know, you just might end up
                    liking it, too someday.

                    And remember - there is no "magic person" - someone who would be better, more
                    attractive, etc. The next guy is just the same. You would have to start all
                    over again, teaching and learning. You would get bored again in time. Your
                    excitement and satisfaction is really all in your head. Unless he is really a
                    lazy, selfish bum, he will get the hang of it eventually. If he IS a lazy,
                    selfish bum, why the heck did you marry him in the first place? These days,
                    we can test drive, you know!

                    Laugh a lot, spice things up, enjoy finding out who YOU are as a person and
                    what you can do and what you want to do. Enjoy being "Mom" while they are
                    still willing to cuddle. Cuddle a lot! Relax, let things go. You don't have
                    to "win" unless it involves the violation of your personal space (inner or
                    outer). Accept each other. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage, a
                    perfect parent, a perfect child, a perfect husband, a perfect wife. Have
                    friends, get out and have fun. A tea party, a picnic, a bike ride. Use the
                    power of fantasy to make it tea in a castle, a picnic in Timbuktu or a trip
                    to Mars. Love your child within and protect her from harm. Look forward to
                    the coming years - they just get better and better! REALLY! I LOVE my forties
                    - and really am looking foward to my 80's. Do you want your children to be
                    happy? Don't try to make them happy - just be happy yourself. They will learn
                    only by example. You know the best way to get your child to learn to play the
                    piano? Get a piano and take lessons yourself, practice every day and tell the
                    kids that it's YOUR piano and they can't touch it! They'll be little Victor
                    Borges in no time!! :  )

                    Well, all this might not be very "Anthroposophical" but I hope one or two
                    points may be of some help. Let's put the "Happy" back in "Happy Anniversary!"

                    Lots of love,
                    Christine


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                  • Carl Jackson
                    Hi Ashley and Christine, You remind me of all the reasons why I ve loved the Steiner people in my life. As a community of spiritual friends I ve always found
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 16, 2002
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                      Hi Ashley and Christine,
                       
                             You remind me of all the reasons why I've  loved the Steiner people in my life.  As a community of spiritual friends I've always found them frank , wholesome, open,  inspiring,  gentle yet passionate, and almost always uplifting to be around - both your posts left me with a smile and made me think - and even more amazingly got me to post instead of lurk!
                       
                             Your situation, Ashley, has *some* similarities to my own, except that, being male,  a few of the perspectives are a little different.    I was haunted by your description of  the "spark" going out of your relationship - about 18 months ago the same thing led to the break-up of me and my de-facto, Gail,  of five years.  There is a particular type of sadness when a relationship that was full of life and vitality quietly ebbs away to nothingness.
                       
                              I identify with some of both you and your husbands situation.  Perhaps my situation might add another angle of view on his.  Like him I was in a pressured job - I was a sales manager and had to do a lot of international travel.  I too would come home a sit in front of the TV.  I found the corporate world sufficiently stressful that I needed to mentally "anaesthetize" myself to recouperate enough to face the next day and the TV was just right for the job - it seemed less harmful than drinking.   We had talked about putting in a few very hard working years to get ourselves into a financially secure position   and I think I was mentally prepared to "tough it out" for that long - but over about 2 years of this we became distant and started to fight.  It seemed that one of the essential problems was that in a stressful job it is MUCH harder to find the time and energy for romance and passion - previously I'd put a lot more energy focussing on her and making her feel special and loved and making her laugh - now I had transferred that energy into our mutual goal of achieving financial security.    Perhaps the old saying "you marry the job too" applies both in your situation and mine.   I always found that when she expressed fear and concern about security issues, particularly about money,  I would react by putting in even longer hours at work to try and "do something" to fix the cause of the insecurity.  It is a perhaps part of the male protective instinct that when your mate feels insecure then all other matters become secondary until you restore that sense of security.  I wonder if any of that happens with you and your husband.  
                       
                              Looking back on the situation with hindsight I guess I needed either a job that was compatable with my wife, or a wife that was compatable with my job. 
                       
                             The issue of romance and passion is one I strive to understand more than I do - particularly from a spiritual point of view.  Steiner embraced both Christianity and Buddhism - and I was educated in a Waldorf school and later become a serious Buddhist for several years.  But it seems to me that there are quite different views on an issue like Passion between Christianity and Buddhism and I don't as yet know if and how Steiner resolves these.   Buddha taught that passion is a manifestation of craving and craving leads to suffering and blocks the path the Nirvana. He taught that we should be aware of passions arising within us without reacting to them so that the passions lose power and dissapate.  I remember attending a 10-day meditation course and at the end of each day people would ask the teacher questions.  One day a woman came up and asked what the problem was with passion and the teacher answered more or less as above, to which she replied "but I LIKE it!"  It really stuck in my mind that on some level passion matters  a bit more to women than to men - in that setting passion was look at as not really different to anger or envy - and you certainly wouldnt have seen any of the meditators get up and make a stand for envy or anger the way this woman did for passion.   On some level it seems like passion is largely an energy that flows from men to women - it leaves women feeling more energized but their men feeling less so.  From Christs owns "passion" we get an entirely different view - at golgotha passion seems to be an essential part of his spiritual transcendance. And the "mainstream" modern western view is that passion is a very positive thing.  The truth about passion is, I suspect, one of the deeper mysteries.
                             
                      Carl
                       
                             
                       ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 9:18 AM
                      Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction

                      What a deliciously self-indulgent excercise, to consider your list of questions!  My IRL housewife friends *bristle* at the mention of my marital and personal problems.  I have attached my answers in a MS Word document.  Thanks again, Christine!  I look forward to knowing you better on this list.




                    • Ashley Case
                      Thanks, Carl. I do appreciate hearing the male perspective. I hope that you are back on your feet now, 18 months later. It made me sad to hear that you were
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 17, 2002
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                        >
                        Thanks, Carl.  I do appreciate hearing the male perspective.  I hope that you are back on your feet now, 18 months later.  It made me sad to hear that you were working on a common goal, and this drove you apart.
                         
                        -------Original Message-------
                         
                        Date: Sunday, June 16, 2002 07:52:11 AM
                        Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction
                         
                        Hi Ashley and Christine,
                         
                               You remind me of all the reasons why I've  loved the Steiner people in my life.  As a community of spiritual friends I've always found them frank , wholesome, open,  inspiring,  gentle yet passionate, and almost always uplifting to be around - both your posts left me with a smile and made me think - and even more amazingly got me to post instead of lurk!
                         
                               Your situation, Ashley, has *some* similarities to my own, except that, being male,  a few of the perspectives are a little different.    I was haunted by your description of  the "spark" going out of your relationship - about 18 months ago the same thing led to the break-up of me and my de-facto, Gail,  of five years.  There is a particular type of sadness when a relationship that was full of life and vitality quietly ebbs away to nothingness.
                         
                                I identify with some of both you and your husbands situation.  Perhaps my situation might add another angle of view on his.  Like him I was in a pressured job - I was a sales manager and had to do a lot of international travel.  I too would come home a sit in front of the TV.  I found the corporate world sufficiently stressful that I needed to mentally "anaesthetize" myself to recouperate enough to face the next day and the TV was just right for the job - it seemed less harmful than drinking.   We had talked about putting in a few very hard working years to get ourselves into a financially secure position   and I think I was mentally prepared to "tough it out" for that long - but over about 2 years of this we became distant and started to fight.  It seemed that one of the essential problems was that in a stressful job it is MUCH harder to find the time and energy for romance and passion - previously I'd put a lot more energy focussing on her and making her feel special and loved and making her laugh - now I had transferred that energy into our mutual goal of achieving financial security.    Perhaps the old saying "you marry the job too" applies both in your situation and mine.   I always found that when she expressed fear and concern about security issues, particularly about money,  I would react by putting in even longer hours at work to try and "do something" to fix the cause of the insecurity.  It is a perhaps part of the male protective instinct that when your mate feels insecure then all other matters become secondary until you restore that sense of security.  I wonder if any of that happens with you and your husband.  
                         
                                Looking back on the situation with hindsight I guess I needed either a job that was compatable with my wife, or a wife that was compatable with my job. 
                         
                               The issue of romance and passion is one I strive to understand more than I do - particularly from a spiritual point of view.  Steiner embraced both Christianity and Buddhism - and I was educated in a Waldorf school and later become a serious Buddhist for several years.  But it seems to me that there are quite different views on an issue like Passion between Christianity and Buddhism and I don't as yet know if and how Steiner resolves these.   Buddha taught that passion is a manifestation of craving and craving leads to suffering and blocks the path the Nirvana. He taught that we should be aware of passions arising within us without reacting to them so that the passions lose power and dissapate.  I remember attending a 10-day meditation course and at the end of each day people would ask the teacher questions.  One day a woman came up and asked what the problem was with passion and the teacher answered more or less as above, to which she replied "but I LIKE it!"  It really stuck in my mind that on some level passion matters  a bit more to women than to men - in that setting passion was look at as not really different to anger or envy - and you certainly wouldnt have seen any of the meditators get up and make a stand for envy or anger the way this woman did for passion.   On some level it seems like passion is largely an energy that flows from men to women - it leaves women feeling more energized but their men feeling less so.  From Christs owns "passion" we get an entirely different view - at golgotha passion seems to be an essential part of his spiritual transcendance. And the "mainstream" modern western view is that passion is a very positive thing.  The truth about passion is, I suspect, one of the deeper mysteries.
                               
                        Carl
                         
                               
                         ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 9:18 AM
                        Subject: Re: [steiner] introduction

                        What a deliciously self-indulgent excercise, to consider your list of questions!  My IRL housewife friends *bristle* at the mention of my marital and personal problems.  I have attached my answers in a MS Word document.  Thanks again, Christine!  I look forward to knowing you better on this list.





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                        http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



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                      • golden3000997@cs.com
                        Hi Carl, Oh boy... what am I going to DO with you kids!!! : ) You can have money, passion, love, peace and all at once. In our culture, we are usually raised
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 17, 2002
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                          Hi Carl,

                          Oh boy... what am I going to DO with you kids!!! : )

                          You can have money, passion, love, peace and all at once. In our culture, we
                          are usually raised to believe (I certainly was) that spirituality and
                          sexuality are opposites. Well, sexual activity is an act of will. Making
                          money is an act of will. Meditation is an act of will. Loving God is an act
                          of will (I'll define this shortly). The will of the human being is his or her
                          most unconcious and at the same time, most powerful soul force. Ever been up
                          all night with indigestion? That's what happens when their is a disturbance
                          in the unconcious will forces governing our metabolism. Not fun. But
                          definitely more concious. Well, becoming concious of other will forces in our
                          lives can be almost as painful. However, respecting them and learning to
                          "feed" them properly can result in increased vitality and soul health.

                          What is the real problem here? Some kind of spark missing? Some magical
                          chemical that isn't being produced? Not enough of ......? Energy? Time? Love?
                          Money?

                          Nope.

                          It is very, very simple - the lack of balance and rhythm in life. Somewhere
                          (I can't remember where off hand, would have to look it up) Steiner said,
                          "Rhythm replaces Strength."

                          Let's say you want to play the piano. You could dream about it for years,
                          listen to great recordings, read the biographies of great musicians and
                          composers, get on lots of musical mailing lists, etc.. But if you really
                          desire to participate, there would be some acts of will to accomplish -
                          getting a piano (or keyboard), finding a teacher and going to lessons and
                          ....are you ready for this?? Practicing!!!! Where all this gets you is
                          dependent on a combination of natural ability and determined work. Some
                          people, even after all this effort will let the whole thing dwindle away in a
                          few months. Some people will find that they really were "born with" a talent
                          that they never had put to the test before and they will go on to using it in
                          unexpected ways in their life. Other people will learn enough to amuse
                          themselves or their family and friends and will feel content with this. Etc.,
                          etc and soforth..... : )

                          Now consider this. Let's say you make the effort, get a piano, take lessons
                          and are perfectly willing to practice regardless of how good or not so good
                          you may become. But you do want to put in enough effort to make the whole
                          thing worthwhile and get you at least to a competent level. Which would be
                          better? Practicing all day, for 8 hours, every Saturday only? Or practicing
                          every night of the week for half an hour? Which do you think would make for
                          better progress?

                          Yup, every day for half an hour. The rhythm of the daily practice allows the
                          mind and the skill to develop at a healthy pace, each day's experience
                          building on the one before.

                          So, this lengthy example can apply to everything that a person might want to
                          create or have happen in his or her life. A marriage? Enthusiasm - you read
                          about it, see it in film & TV, talk about it, maybe see some bad examples and
                          say " I can do better" maybe see some good examples and say " Gee that looks
                          wonderful, I want that, too." The you meet THE ONE (after meeting lots of
                          other "ones") OK, this one's a keeper - it's gonna be great (or else you got
                          suckered into it, in which case we're not talking about will anymore). It's
                          my SOULMATE!! My LIFE PARTNER!! My better half... my one and only... yada,
                          yada, yada... you get the picture. You make the effort. You clean up nice.
                          You figure out what he or she likes and get it/ do it/ watch it/ play
                          it....... You do the bouncy-bouncy and oh do it feel good! (At least some of
                          the time, or else - you got suckered - see above) OK, we're going for it, the
                          rings, the dress, the gifts, the guests, et al. Now we done it - WOW. If
                          only we were all Romeo and Juliet and we died right after our honeymoon, we
                          would all have perfect marriages. Unfortunately......

                          Hey, the energy lasts for a good while. The first year is great. Sure, a few
                          battles and some real adjustments, but things still feel basically good.
                          Practice? No problem - bring it on. Flowers, wine, candles, massage. Hey this
                          marriage thing is not bad! Then fewer flowers, less wine, and "are you
                          kidding, rub your feet? Do you know what kind of day I had???" Kids come.
                          Jobs come and go. Friends and families come and go - usually the ones you
                          want to come, go and the ones you want to go, come. But we got plans, we got
                          dreams, we got goals. So we hitch our wills up by the bootstraps and plunge
                          on. Some vacations, some interesting weekends, hey, we still know how to rock
                          n roll.... : )

                          Then eventually, we come to realize that things have really dwindled away.
                          This marriage thing is getting pretty dusty over there in the corner. I
                          really don't have the energy to practice tonight (been saying that for months
                          now). Now and then we sit down and have a good long bang at it, but those
                          Saturdays get fewer and fewer. Might as well sell the damn thing and get a
                          home entertainment center instead. You do. Then one night, as you're sitting
                          there watching (ALONE) you get this brilliant idea - "Hey, I'm gonna take up
                          the guitar!!!"

                          Is any thing here making sense?

                          As for Steiner, Buddhism and Christianity - I really don't think he
                          "embraced" them. I think he investigated them. And the kind of shallow
                          wandering around in the puddles of spiritual knowledge that most people do
                          today will never produce anything that will "TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD DO."
                          Because it isn't about SHOULDS in the first place. Another "Herr Doktor"
                          quote - from an old anthropop that I once knew is that a young woman came to
                          Steiner and told him all about her problems or life situation. She concluded
                          by asking "So, what should I do?" The only answer she got was, "My dear, the
                          question is what WILL you do?"

                          Read Herman Hesse's Siddharta. Understand that Gautama Buddha went to all
                          phases of experience before he was ready for his bliss. He was an extreme
                          ascetic (?) and an extreme materialist. The pendulum swings wildly in our
                          lives from one to the other, little by little slowing down to a more moderate
                          pace. For some, it just stops and for all intense and purposes their life is
                          over. They have stopped trying and settle into a state of "quiet desperation"
                          and wait to die. Others do wild things to keep the pendulum in motion,
                          gambling, sex, drugs, one cult after another. Keep it moving, keep it moving.
                          But there is another possibility. Do you know what a lemniskate is? a figure
                          eight. In movement. Remember your Eurythmy, Carl? What if you were to take
                          that pendulum and set it to swing in a lemniskate pattern. Sure, it would
                          need a push now and then, but the rhythm would be a healthy one. There are
                          energizing principles associated with it. They use it while creating
                          homeopathic remedies. In and out, back and forth, breathing, moving,
                          relating, healing, creating. Rhythmic movement, rhythmic breathing, rhythmic
                          development. All nature lives by it and it governs them as law. As earthly
                          creatures we are within its sway, but as spiritual human beings, we are not
                          bound by it. We can choose (even unconciously) to ignore it, to defy it, to
                          do our "own thing" in our own way. But it will have it's revenge, by its very
                          absence in our lives. We will die, perhaps of illnesses created by our
                          imbalances, knowing that we have not created what we came to create, we have
                          not learned what we came to learn, we have not loved what we came to love.

                          As for Christianity and sex? I think that will have to be for another time.
                          Only by understanding the real nature of the Trinity can one understand the
                          spiritual role of the male/ female energies, I believe.

                          One more detail - it is NEVER - "That Person" - it is never "...something
                          wrong with" (either you or them). The same cycle will repeat and repeat with
                          each new person. You can go from Tin Pan Alley to Carnegie Hall, but you
                          won't get any better music from the concert grand than you did from the old
                          upright in your living room. It is your art alone that will be heard.

                          Love,
                          Christine
                        • L APPLEBY
                          Hello! I have just joined the Steiner group and would like to tell you a bit about myself. I am interested in Buddhism, Christianity and theosophy.. I am
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 27 12:45 PM
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                            Hello!

                            I have just joined the Steiner group and would like to tell you a bit about myself.

                            I am interested in Buddhism, Christianity and theosophy.. I am particularly keen on the writing of Alice Bailey. My spiritual experiences are of connection to the elements, healing worldwide and synchronicity. I experience a spirit which joins me to all mankind and which I can heal to bring the world to peace and harmony.  I would really like to understand this more.My background is more in the theories of Freud, Jung and Klein. Do you think Steiner has a place for such phenomena and what would his analysis be?

                            Yours,
                            Linda Appleby

                            www.lindaappleby.com/connections    for 'Interconnection' CD
                            lindaappleby128atbt.blog.co.uk

                          • Durward Starman
                            *******Welcome to the group, Linda. Well, if you have a background in Freud, you know that his orthodox scientific point of view rejected all spiritual
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 28 11:16 AM
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                              *******Welcome to the group, Linda. Well, if you have a background in Freud, you know that his orthodox scientific point of view rejected all spiritual experiences as mere illusons, while his pupil Jung tried to go beyond those shackles on thinking. Steiner went much further than Jung--- so Jung is well-known in the world because he didn't go too far and stayed fairly acceptable to academia, where Steiner went too far for most 20th century academics to accept. But if one wants to understand spiritual things like Buddhism and Christianity, Jungian thought can only take you so far. I think working with what Steiner gave out can lead to much more understanding of ancient religions, as well as the spiritual path for today. Likewise, of all the people who worked out of theosophy, I'd say Steiner's contributions have been the most fruitful (the schools, farms, arts, anthroposophic medicine, etc.)
                               
                                Our list is seldom used. Feel free to start any discussion you like and perhaps people may join in---except, please, no discussion of politics, which has a negative effect on conversation on the internet, you may have seen!
                               
                                 I mainly work with Astrosophy, the renewal of astrology, which is a multidimensional psychology as well as leading over into the physical dimension as well. For example, in case you haven't read about it yet, Steiner also revived the old idea of the 4 Elements as Jung did, but where Jung named them the "Intuitive", "Sensation" etc. 4 personality types, Steiner described 4 types of formative forces in nature which he called the 4 Ethers, and that each of these 4 temperaments or personalty types had a preponderance of one or another "ether": Warmth Ether, Light Ether, Sound Ether (also called Chemical or Number Ether---which is the one Freud's other pupil Reich discovered and called "orgone energy") and Life Ether. Along with inclining people to psychologically be a certain way, these also have physical effects--- so, for instance, what in past centuries were called "fiery" people or the "Choleric temperament" have a lot of Warmth Ether, and one characteristic of it is to contract things in space--- so cholerics tend to be small in stature. Hence the shortness of powerful leaders like Napoleon, Augustus, Hitler, etc.
                               
                              Starman

                              www.DrStarman.com


                               

                              To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                              From: l.appleby128@...
                              Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:45:25 +0000
                              Subject: [steiner] introduction

                               
                              Hello!

                              I have just joined the Steiner group and would like to tell you a bit about myself.

                              I am interested in Buddhism, Christianity and theosophy.. I am particularly keen on the writing of Alice Bailey. My spiritual experiences are of connection to the elements, healing worldwide and synchronicity. I experience a spirit which joins me to all mankind and which I can heal to bring the world to peace and harmony.  I would really like to understand this more.My background is more in the theories of Freud, Jung and Klein. Do you think Steiner has a place for such phenomena and what would his analysis be?

                              Yours,
                              Linda Appleby

                              www.lindaappleby. com/connections    for 'Interconnection' CD
                              lindaappleby128atbt .blog.co. uk




                              HotmailĀ® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Try it now.
                            • robertsmason_99
                              ... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Alice Bailey was working under very dubious influences, to put it mildly. There is a direct line from her to
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 28 12:20 PM
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                                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, L APPLEBY <l.appleby128@...> wrote:
                                > . . . I am particularly keen on the writing of Alice Bailey. . . .

                                Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Alice
                                Bailey was working under very dubious influences,
                                to put it mildly. There is a direct line from
                                her to Benjamin Creme's bogus "Maitreya". To
                                refer to my own words:
                                <http://www.altanthroinfo.9f.com/ahriman.htm#theemergenceofmaitreya>

                                Another word: *discernment*.

                                Robert Mason
                              • stephenm142
                                Are you familiar with Guenther Wachsmuth s Etheric Formative Forces Book and the discussion of the 4 Ethers in Earth and Man s evolution? I can post excerpts
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 28 12:26 PM
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                                  Are you familiar with Guenther Wachsmuth's "Etheric Formative Forces' Book and the discussion of the 4 Ethers in Earth and Man's evolution? I can post excerpts for discussion. I have scanned it and made a readable PDF eBook. Do you have respect for Wachsmuth's work along these lines? Do you know if he ever worked with the other Astrosophical great Willi Sucher?

                                  - Stephen

                                  ==========================
                                  [Starman said:]
                                  Steiner also revived the old idea of the 4 Elements as Jung did, but where Jung named them the "Intuitive", "Sensation" etc. 4 personality types, Steiner described 4 types of formative forces in nature which he called the 4 Ethers, and that each of these 4 temperaments or personalty types had a preponderance of one or another "ether": Warmth Ether, Light Ether, Sound Ether (also called Chemical or Number Ether---which is the one Freud's other pupil Reich discovered and called "orgone energy") and Life Ether. Along with inclining people to psychologically be a certain way, these also have physical effects---
                                • Durward Starman
                                  *******Yes, in fact I sponsored a reprint of his book on the 50th anniversary of its publication in English (1936), when I found out it had been out of print
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 28 4:16 PM
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                                    *******Yes, in fact I sponsored a reprint of his book on the 50th anniversary of its publication in English (1936), when I found out it had been out of print ever since, apparently because of the split in the Society where Wachsmuth and Ita Wegman and the others went to war with each other. It's a very important book which I believe is once again out of print. I have his "Reincarnation As A Phenomenon of Metamorphosis" also. You could post the book to our Files section if you wish.
                                     
                                       Somehow, Wachsmuth and Albert Steffen wound up in one faction 10 years after Steiner's death and Ita Wegman and Dr. Elizabeth Vreede wound up on the other. The two women were kicked out of the Society even though they continued to live right down the street from the Goetheanum and carry on their work. (Both were Dutch, and the Anthroposophical Society of Holland separated itself in protest over their treatment. Dr. Vreede was the head of the Mathematical-Astronomical Section, and had been trained directly by Steiner at reading horoscopes, as can be seen by their remarks to each other in the Curative Education lectures. After she was expelled, that work suffered. Her 2 assistants were Joachim Schultze, author of "Movements and Rythms of the Stars", and Willi Sucher. Neither were fired, but not long afterwards Sucher left for California, convinced from these experiences that those at the Goetheanum would not likely start a new astrology, so he worked on it and published his books himself.
                                     
                                       The art and science of Astrosophy has suffered from those events of 1935, and we need to pick up and go forward now.
                                     
                                    -starman

                                    www.DrStarman.com


                                     

                                    To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: celestial_vision@...
                                    Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:26:14 +0000
                                    Subject: [steiner] Re: introduction/welcome

                                     
                                    Are you familiar with Guenther Wachsmuth's "Etheric Formative Forces' Book and the discussion of the 4 Ethers in Earth and Man's evolution? I can post excerpts for discussion. I have scanned it and made a readable PDF eBook. Do you have respect for Wachsmuth's work along these lines? Do you know if he ever worked with the other Astrosophical great Willi Sucher?

                                    - Stephen

                                    ============ ========= =====
                                    [Starman said:]
                                    Steiner also revived the old idea of the 4 Elements as Jung did, but where Jung named them the "Intuitive", "Sensation" etc. 4 personality types, Steiner described 4 types of formative forces in nature which he called the 4 Ethers, and that each of these 4 temperaments or personalty types had a preponderance of one or another "ether": Warmth Ether, Light Ether, Sound Ether (also called Chemical or Number Ether---which is the one Freud's other pupil Reich discovered and called "orgone energy") and Life Ether. Along with inclining people to psychologically be a certain way, these also have physical effects---




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                                  • stephenm142
                                    Very interesting post Starman. If it was reprinted in 1986 then I have no evidence of that, and I have done extensive research, do you have a publisher or any
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 31 1:52 PM
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                                      Very interesting post Starman.
                                      If it was reprinted in 1986 then I have no evidence of that, and I have done extensive research, do you have a publisher or any specific information so that I might find it? As you know any reprint must be in color because of all the original color diagrams that make no sense in black and white. I am trying to get the publisher at Temple Lodge to reprint it now. I believe it is important, and I am trying to study it.
                                      I just read the memorandum which details the March 27/28 GA meeting where Vreede, Wegman, all of the Dutch and much of the English society let by Kauffman (Adams) were booted. Zeylmans was booted as well and Walter Stein's mischievousness was all over the matter. It's a very sad commentary and a great wonder that the society survived in any shape or form whatsoever(I know there are those who say it didn't).
                                      I now have the original typescript publications Man and the Stars, etc by Sucher that I will also scan and post if anyone is interested. As far as posting the Wachsmuth Formative forces book, it came out very large and I am in the process of trying to use Adobe to trim the size of the pdf - is there a file size limit?
                                      - Stephen


                                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > *******Yes, in fact I sponsored a reprint of his book on the 50th anniversary of its publication in English (1936), when I found out it had been out of print ever since, apparently because of the split in the Society where Wachsmuth and Ita Wegman and the others went to war with each other. It's a very important book which I believe is once again out of print. I have his "Reincarnation As A Phenomenon of Metamorphosis" also. You could post the book to our Files section if you wish.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Somehow, Wachsmuth and Albert Steffen wound up in one faction 10 years after Steiner's death and Ita Wegman and Dr. Elizabeth Vreede wound up on the other. The two women were kicked out of the Society even though they continued to live right down the street from the Goetheanum and carry on their work. (Both were Dutch, and the Anthroposophical Society of Holland separated itself in protest over their treatment. Dr. Vreede was the head of the Mathematical-Astronomical Section, and had been trained directly by Steiner at reading horoscopes, as can be seen by their remarks to each other in the Curative Education lectures. After she was expelled, that work suffered. Her 2 assistants were Joachim Schultze, author of "Movements and Rythms of the Stars", and Willi Sucher. Neither were fired, but not long afterwards Sucher left for California, convinced from these experiences that those at the Goetheanum would not likely start a new astrology, so he worked on it and published his books himself.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The art and science of Astrosophy has suffered from those events of 1935, and we need to pick up and go forward now.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -starman
                                      >
                                      > www.DrStarman.com
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