Re: [steiner] Staying on tracks
- I will respect the tone of this request but not the personal intent behind it, which is yours alone, I sense. I am only responding to questions as they have come up in the past few days independently of what chapter is being read. The real wonder is how all relates to the 12 Nights of Christmas, the genesis the new year and the Spirit of the Season, in general.And as Elf stated, "I thought this was a discussion group". Apparently not. This is your group and is being directed as such. As for my confusing style of writing and thinking. Funny, the four other groups I participate in don't seem to have this problem. Only you do. If this was a genuine philosophic discussion in the real world, "outside" and "off topic" issues would be the norm not the exception.Have a good read.Jeff----- Original Message -----From: DRStarman2001@...Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 5:18 PMSubject: [steiner] Staying on topic*******None of the below has anything to do with our study, and I really
don't want to allow any more tangents during the 12 Nights. If you'd like to
inquire about things in the book we're reading, you know---phrase questions
that may help others understand it better--- fine; or take a chapter to
present, and in that develop your own ideas. But we are now on Chapter 4 and
it appears you're still quarelling with the elementary start of Ch. 1,
namely that we think our own thoughts. (Included in this is the same
confusion of thinking thoughts yourself vs. those thoughts being completely
original, which was dealt with.) Perhaps this isn't the study for you then. I
don't see where this can help any other participants in studying the book.
In a message dated 12/27/2001 6:25:11 PM, pacbay@... writes:
<< Again, may I add something...and this point is central to the general
pursuit of "truth" and "certainty" about the nature of the human soul.
Is it a true statement that "our thoughts are all our own as well as our
opinions"? Psychologists and cognitive theorists would say, not necessarily.
Putting aside dicey left field issues like telepathy between minds, unless
one can actually experience and be certain of the generation of every
thought statement within oneself, we do not really know where the thoughts
"come from". Yes, they arise within one's consciousness and cognition but
everyone knows of "free floating" and reactionary thoughts and statements
that arise in our thinking constantly. And these thoughts are not necessarily
"ours". These thought structures and sentences like, "I am stupid", "I am
smart", "that was bad luck", "America is the greatest country in the world",
"I love you"; can and often arise from the internalized memories,"voices" and
unconsciously replicated thoughts of parents, teachers, spouses, employers,
etc These thoughts and attitudes are not generated by us but are reactionary
thoughts that are pulled from the soul and come into consciousness.
Other disciplines of self reflection and philosophic work can help sensitize
and clarify the true origins of our internal dialogues or train of thoughts.
Though AP and Philosophy of Freedom rejects "the unconscious" as a state of
consciousness, yet one must deal with the unconscious nature of our cognition
and thinking in some way to approach "self generated, free thinking".
In the example of Ouspensky's and Gurdjieff's work, the practice of self
remembering (and thus being aware of one's inner soul presence as well as the
contents of thinking, feeling, and willing) helps in this process.This
cognitive and psychological view is an important consideration in the pursuit
of the nature of thinking, perception and consciousness.
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