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Re: [steiner] Philosphy of Freedom Ch 1

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  • DRStarman2001@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/26/01 8:05:58 PM, DRStarman2001@aol.com writes:
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 26, 2001
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      In a message dated 12/26/01 8:05:58 PM, DRStarman2001@... writes:

      << elfinstein2000@... writes:

      << Your opinions are your own, your thoughts are your own.

      Hmmmm suspect, very suspect indeed :) >>


      Steiner in Ch. 3: "Perhaps it [thinking] also has some other origin as well,
      perhaps it comes from God or from elsewhere, but that it is present in the
      sense that I myself bring it forth, of that I am certain."

      *******Perhaps you could express how this statement is not true... and
      anyone who agrees that he or she produces his or her own thinking could say
      why they believe it is.
    • elf
      Hi Starman ! I would say that sentence is true. thoughts exist separate from you, they are not one with your nature, they come and go -- you remain, you
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 26, 2001
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        Hi Starman !  I would say that sentence is true. 

        thoughts exist separate from you, they are not one with your nature, they come and go -- you remain, you persist. You are like the sky: it never comes, it never goes, it is always there. Clouds come and go, they are momentary phenomena, they are not eternal. Even if you try to cling to a thought, you cannot retain it for long; it has to go, it has its own birth and death. Thoughts are not yours, they don't belong to you. They come as visitors, guests, but they are not the host.

        Mind is never peaceful -- no-mind is peace. Mind itself can never be peaceful, silent. The very nature of the mind is to be tense, to be in confusion. Mind can never be clear, it cannot have clarity, because mind is by nature confusion, cloudiness. Clarity is possible without mind, peace is possible without mind, silence is possible without mind

        If you are unconscious you cannot see the gaps; you jump from one thought to another, you never see the gap. If you become aware you will see more and more gaps.

        If you become perfectly aware, then miles of gaps will be revealed to you.

        And in those gaps, satoris happen. In those gaps the truth knocks at your door. In those gaps, the guest comes. In those gaps God is realized, or whatsoever way you like to express it. And when awareness is absolute, then there is only a vast gap of nothingness.

        It is just like clouds: clouds move. They can be so thick that you cannot see the sky hidden behind them. The vast blueness of the sky is lost, you are covered with clouds. Then you go on watching: one cloud moves and another has not come into the vision yet -- and suddenly a peek into the blueness of the vast sky.

        The same happens inside: you are the vast blueness of the sky, and thoughts are just like clouds hovering around you, filling you. But the gaps exist, the sky exists. To have a glimpse of the sky is satori, and to become the sky is samadhi. From satori to samadhi, the whole process is a deep insight into the mind, nothing else.


         

        A Buddha is a person who lives without the mind; then he is not responsible. That's why in the East we say that he never accumulates karma; he never accumulates any entanglements for the future. He lives, he walks, he moves, he eats, he talks, he is doing many things, so he must accumulate karma, because karma means activity. But in the East it is said even if a Buddha kills, he will not accumulate karma. Why? And you, even if you don't kill, you will accumulate karma. Why?

        It is simple: whatsoever Buddha is doing, he is doing without any mind in it. He is spontaneous, it is not activity. He is not thinking about it, it happens. He is not the doer. He moves like an emptiness. He has no mind for it, he was not thinking to do it. But if the existence allows it to happen, he allows it to happen. He has no more the ego to resist; no more the ego to do

        :)
        Steiner in Ch. 3:  "Perhaps it [thinking] also has some other origin as well,
        perhaps it comes from God or from elsewhere, but that it is present in the
        sense that I myself bring it forth, of that I am certain."

        *******Perhaps you could express how this statement is not true... and
        anyone who agrees that he or she produces his or her own thinking could say
        why they believe it is.


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      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        So in understanding the process of knowing (in order to see whether it s possible to truly know ourselves and therefore act in free will), we establish that we
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 26, 2001
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          So in understanding the process of knowing (in order to see whether it's
          possible to truly know ourselves and therefore act in free will), we
          establish that we must take our starting point from thinking, that through
          which we know all else. We must start with it, not with anything understood
          through it, because it is the one thing we create ourselves and therefore we
          know it thoroughly from within.
          Now, who would like to take up Chapter 4 for us?

          Starman
        • D F
          I hope to add my thoughts on Chap 4 tomorrow, but I can t say that I will take it up. Dr. Starman, could you please post the websight at which I can read the
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 26, 2001
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            I hope to add my thoughts on Chap 4 tomorrow, but I
            can't say that I will take it up.

            Dr. Starman, could you please post the websight at
            which I can read the translation of PoF which is
            online? Thanks very much.

            Carol

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          • DRStarman2001@aol.com
            softabyss@yahoo.com writes:
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 27, 2001
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              softabyss@... writes:
              << I hope to add my thoughts on Chap 4 tomorrow, but I
              can't say that I will take it up.
              Dr. Starman, could you please post the websight at
              which I can read the translation of PoF which is
              online? Thanks very much.
              Carol >>

              *******Here it is as a link....
              <A HREF="http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Books/GA004/POSA/posapf1.php3">Books:
              POSA: Preface to the Revised Edition, 19…</A>

              and as a URL if your browser won't show that as a link...
              http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Books/GA004/POSA/posapf1.php3

              Plus I'm posting Ch. 4 here this morning.

              Starman
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