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Re: Steiner Autobiography - Chapter III

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  • be23566
    Here are some uses of spirit in the text. Could someone explain what spiritual means so that this text would make sense? Tom soul brings over something
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 22, 2012
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      Here are some uses of spirit in the text. Could someone explain what "spiritual" means so that this text would make sense?
      Tom

      soul brings over something spiritual.
      as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses.
      has taken on the character of the spiritual.
      out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
      one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet this thought life.
      The spiritual vision perceives spirit



      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "juancompostella" <juancompostella@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Chapter III - ending
      >
      > I found these concluding remarks really important to bring to this
      > discussion concerning how POF was born. - Juan
      >
      > "I was deeply stirred by the reading of Schiller's letters concerning
      > the aesthetic education of man. His statement that human consciousness
      > oscillates, as it were, back and forth between different states,
      > afforded me a connection with the notion that I had formed of the inner
      > working and weaving of the human soul. Schiller distinguished two states
      > of consciousness in which man evolves his relationship to the world.
      > When he surrenders himself to that which affects him through the senses,
      > he lives under the compulsion of nature. The sensations and impulses
      > determine his life. If he subjects himself to the logical laws and
      > principles of reason then he is living under a rational compulsion. But
      > he can evolve an intermediate state of consciousness. He can develop the
      > "aesthetic mood," which is not given over either on the one side to the
      > compulsion of nature, or on the other to the necessities of the reason.
      > In this aesthetic mood the soul lives through the senses; but into the
      > sense-perception and into the action set on foot by sense-stimuli the
      > soul brings over something spiritual. One perceives through the senses,
      > but as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses. In action one
      > surrenders oneself to the gratification of the present desire; but one
      > has so ennobled this desire that to him the good is pleasing and the
      > evil displeasing. Reason has then entered into union with the sensible.
      > The good becomes an instinct; instinct can safely direct itself, for it
      > has taken on the character of the spiritual. Schiller sees in this state
      > of consciousness that condition of the soul in which man can experience
      > and produce works of beauty. In the evolution of this state he sees the
      > coming to life in men of the true human being.
      >
      > These thoughts of Schiller's were to me very attractive. They implied
      > that man must first have his consciousness in a certain condition before
      > he can attain to a relationship to the phenomena of the world
      > corresponding to man's own being. Something was here given to me which
      > brought to greater clarity the questions which presented themselves
      > before me out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
      > Schiller spoke of the state of consciousness which must be present in
      > order that one may experience the beauty of the world. Might one not
      > also think of a state of consciousness which would mediate to us the
      > truth in the beings of things? If this is granted, then one must not,
      > after the fashion of Kant, observe the present state of human
      > consciousness and investigate whether this can enter into the true
      > beings of things. But one must first seek to discover the state of
      > consciousness through which man places himself in such a relationship to
      > the world that things and facts reveal their being to him.
      >
      > And I believed that I knew that such a state of consciousness is reached
      > up to a certain degree when man not only has thoughts which conceive
      > external things and events, but such thoughts that he himself
      > experiences them as thoughts. This living in thoughts revealed itself to
      > me as quite different from that in which man ordinarily exists and also
      > carries on ordinary scientific research. If one penetrates deeper and
      > deeper into thought-life, one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet
      > this thought life. One then takes the path of the soul into the spirit.
      > But on this inner way of the soul one arrives at a spiritual reality
      > which one also finds again within nature. One gains a deeper knowledge
      > of nature when one then faces nature after having in living thoughts
      > beheld the reality of the spirit.
      >
      > It became clearer and clearer to me how, through going forward beyond
      > the customary abstract thoughts to these spiritual perceptions –
      > which, however, the calmness and luminousness of the thought serve to
      > confirm – man lives himself into a reality from which customary
      > consciousness bars him out. This customary state has on one side the
      > living quality of the sense-perception; on the other the abstractness of
      > thought-conceiving. The spiritual vision perceives spirit as the senses
      > perceive nature; but it does not stand apart in thought from the
      > spiritual perception as the customary state of consciousness stands in
      > its thoughts apart from the sense-perceptions. Spiritual vision thinks
      > while it experiences spirit, and experiences while it sets to thinking
      > the awakened spirituality of man.
      >
      > A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest
      > upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
      > activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
      > thinking. I was approaching the state of soul in which I felt that I
      > might consider that the perception of the spiritual world which I bore
      > within me was confirmed before the forum of natural scientific thought.
      >
      > When these experiences passed through my mind I was in my twenty-second
      > year.
      >
      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA028/TSoML/GA028_c03.html
      > <http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA028/TSoML/GA028_c03.html>
      >
      > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "juancompostella" <juancompostella@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > I am reading Steiner's autobiography, and found these remarks at the
      > > beginning of chapter III very interesting. It is the summer of 1879
      > and
      > > he is eighteen years old. The family has moved just south of Vienna,
      > and
      > > Fichte is next to be studied intensively. Thinking, Ego, Spirit are
      > all
      > > together in this young man's mind. - Juan
      > >
      > > Chapter III - beginning
      > >
      > > My father had been promised by the management of the Southern Railway
      > > that he would be assigned to a small station near Vienna as soon as I
      > > should have finished at the Realschule and should need to attend the
      > > Technische Hochschule. In this way it would be possible for me to go
      > to
      > > Vienna and return every day. So it happened that my family came to
      > > Inzersdorf am Wiener Berge. The station was at a distance from the
      > town,
      > > very lonely, and in unlovely natural surroundings. My first visit to
      > > Vienna after we had moved to Inzersdorf was for the purpose of buying
      > a
      > > greater number of philosophical books. What my heart was now
      > especially
      > > devoted to was the first sketch of Theory of Science. I had got so far
      > > with my reading of Kant that I could form a notion, even though
      > > immature, of the advance which Fichte wished to make beyond Kant. But
      > > this did not greatly interest me. What interested me then was to
      > express
      > > the living weaving of the human mind in a sharply outlined mental
      > > picture. My strivings after conceptions in natural science had finally
      > > brought me to see in the activity of the human ego the sole
      > > starting-point for true knowledge. When the ego is active and itself
      > > perceives this activity, man has something spiritual in immediate
      > > presence in his consciousness – thus I said to myself. It seemed
      > to
      > > me that what was thus perceived ought now to be expressed in clear,
      > > vivid concepts. In order to find a way to do this, I devoted myself to
      > > Fichte's Theory of Science. And yet I had my own opinions. So I took
      > the
      > > volume and rewrote it, page by page.
      > >
      > > This made a lengthy manuscript. I had previously striven to find
      > > conceptions for the phenomena of nature from which one might derive a
      > > conception of the ego. Now I wished to do the opposite: from the ego
      > to
      > > penetrate into the nature's process of becoming. Spirit and nature
      > were
      > > present before my soul in their absolute contrast. There was for me a
      > > world of spiritual beings. That the ego, which itself is spirit, lives
      > > in a world of spirits was for me a matter of direct perception. But
      > > nature would not pass over into this spirit-world of my experience.
      >
    • Stephen Clarke
      Dear Tom, Juan: On the genesis of POF, you might like to look into Steiner s Kabbalist influences, since Kabbalah forms the armature of much of his cosmology,
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 23, 2012
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        Dear Tom, Juan:

        On the genesis of POF, you might like to look into Steiner's Kabbalist influences, since Kabbalah forms the armature of much of his cosmology, evolution, and other ideas. For instance, in the first past of what you quote, the process of discerning between the two compulsions and arriving at a 'synthesis' of balance can be mapped out quite clearly on the Sepherotic Tree: the arms of Mercy and Severity and their conjunction in the Middle column, and then its refinement upwards to further spiritual states. In the latter portion of what you cite, Steiner attempts to place this rudimentary conception into relationship with the European philosophical tradition.

        While this does not prove any necessary connection between Steiner's throught and Kabbalah, it might be an entre' into such a connection, should you be so inclined. Steiner's early (e.g.; POF) thought was subject to many diverse influences which later on became filtered and transformed into his highly personalized and formalized anthroposophy. Kabbalah does figure prominently - behind the scenes and unacknowledged - in other, major features of his anthroposophy, but you won't find it unless you look for it, but for this, you need to know your Kabbalah. If there is a "secret" to anthroposophy, this is it. E.g.: Friedrich Ekstein, kabbalist, etc., was a major influence on young Steiner, according to Emil Bock, who devotes several pages to him in his 2-volume biography of Steiner.
         
        Stephen


        From: be23566 <fairoaks@...>
        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 11:38 PM
        Subject: [steiner] Re: Steiner Autobiography - Chapter III

         
        Here are some uses of spirit in the text. Could someone explain what "spiritual" means so that this text would make sense?
        Tom

        soul brings over something spiritual.
        as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses.
        has taken on the character of the spiritual.
        out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
        one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet this thought life.
        The spiritual vision perceives spirit

        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "juancompostella" <juancompostella@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Chapter III - ending
        >
        > I found these concluding remarks really important to bring to this
        > discussion concerning how POF was born. - Juan
        >
        > "I was deeply stirred by the reading of Schiller's letters concerning
        > the aesthetic education of man. His statement that human consciousness
        > oscillates, as it were, back and forth between different states,
        > afforded me a connection with the notion that I had formed of the inner
        > working and weaving of the human soul. Schiller distinguished two states
        > of consciousness in which man evolves his relationship to the world.
        > When he surrenders himself to that which affects him through the senses,
        > he lives under the compulsion of nature. The sensations and impulses
        > determine his life. If he subjects himself to the logical laws and
        > principles of reason then he is living under a rational compulsion. But
        > he can evolve an intermediate state of consciousness. He can develop the
        > "aesthetic mood," which is not given over either on the one side to the
        > compulsion of nature, or on the other to the necessities of the reason.
        > In this aesthetic mood the soul lives through the senses; but into the
        > sense-perception and into the action set on foot by sense-stimuli the
        > soul brings over something spiritual. One perceives through the senses,
        > but as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses. In action one
        > surrenders oneself to the gratification of the present desire; but one
        > has so ennobled this desire that to him the good is pleasing and the
        > evil displeasing. Reason has then entered into union with the sensible.
        > The good becomes an instinct; instinct can safely direct itself, for it
        > has taken on the character of the spiritual. Schiller sees in this state
        > of consciousness that condition of the soul in which man can experience
        > and produce works of beauty. In the evolution of this state he sees the
        > coming to life in men of the true human being.
        >
        > These thoughts of Schiller's were to me very attractive. They implied
        > that man must first have his consciousness in a certain condition before
        > he can attain to a relationship to the phenomena of the world
        > corresponding to man's own being. Something was here given to me which
        > brought to greater clarity the questions which presented themselves
        > before me out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
        > Schiller spoke of the state of consciousness which must be present in
        > order that one may experience the beauty of the world. Might one not
        > also think of a state of consciousness which would mediate to us the
        > truth in the beings of things? If this is granted, then one must not,
        > after the fashion of Kant, observe the present state of human
        > consciousness and investigate whether this can enter into the true
        > beings of things. But one must first seek to discover the state of
        > consciousness through which man places himself in such a relationship to
        > the world that things and facts reveal their being to him.
        >
        > And I believed that I knew that such a state of consciousness is reached
        > up to a certain degree when man not only has thoughts which conceive
        > external things and events, but such thoughts that he himself
        > experiences them as thoughts. This living in thoughts revealed itself to
        > me as quite different from that in which man ordinarily exists and also
        > carries on ordinary scientific research. If one penetrates deeper and
        > deeper into thought-life, one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet
        > this thought life. One then takes the path of the soul into the spirit.
        > But on this inner way of the soul one arrives at a spiritual reality
        > which one also finds again within nature. One gains a deeper knowledge
        > of nature when one then faces nature after having in living thoughts
        > beheld the reality of the spirit.
        >
        > It became clearer and clearer to me how, through going forward beyond
        > the customary abstract thoughts to these spiritual perceptions –
        > which, however, the calmness and luminousness of the thought serve to
        > confirm – man lives himself into a reality from which customary
        > consciousness bars him out. This customary state has on one side the
        > living quality of the sense-perception; on the other the abstractness of
        > thought-conceiving. The spiritual vision perceives spirit as the senses
        > perceive nature; but it does not stand apart in thought from the
        > spiritual perception as the customary state of consciousness stands in
        > its thoughts apart from the sense-perceptions. Spiritual vision thinks
        > while it experiences spirit, and experiences while it sets to thinking
        > the awakened spirituality of man.
        >
        > A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest
        > upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
        > activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
        > thinking. I was approaching the state of soul in which I felt that I
        > might consider that the perception of the spiritual world which I bore
        > within me was confirmed before the forum of natural scientific thought.
        >
        > When these experiences passed through my mind I was in my twenty-second
        > year.

      • be23566
        Stephen, I wouldn t be surprised if connections to the Philosophy Of Freedom weren t found in other systems. You do have to know the other system and also POF
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 23, 2012
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          Stephen,
          I wouldn't be surprised if connections to the Philosophy Of Freedom weren't found in other systems. You do have to know the other system and also POF very well to see it and to be able to know the difference between none essential and essential connections (as thinking can always find a connection between any two thoughts). Steiner writes/thinks with incredible order and structure. I found that the structure of POF perfectly aligns with the thought-structure in his world-outlook diagram of the 12 views in his Human and Cosmic Thought. (diagram is here ) Here he called this order "cosmic thinking", so you could say the order and structure of POF is cosmic thinking, which expresses truth through 12 views.

          Tom Last
          philosophyoffreedom.com

          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clarke <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Tom, Juan:
          >
          > On the genesis of POF, you might like to look into Steiner's Kabbalist influences, since Kabbalah forms the armature of much of his cosmology, evolution, and other ideas. For instance, in the first past of what you quote, the process of discerning between the two compulsions and arriving at a 'synthesis' of balance can be mapped out quite clearly on the Sepherotic Tree: the arms of Mercy and Severity and their conjunction in the Middle column, and then its refinement upwards to further spiritual states. In the latter portion of what you cite, Steiner attempts to place this rudimentary conception into relationship with the European philosophical tradition.
          >
          > While this does not prove any necessary connection between Steiner's throught and Kabbalah, it might be an entre' into such a connection, should you be so inclined. Steiner's early (e.g.; POF) thought was subject to many diverse influences which later on became filtered and transformed into his highly personalized and formalized anthroposophy.Kabbalah does figure prominently - behind the scenes and unacknowledged - in other, major features of his anthroposophy, but you won't find it unless you look for it, but for this, you need to know your Kabbalah. If there is a "secret" to anthroposophy, this is it. E.g.: Friedrich Ekstein, kabbalist, etc., was a major influence on young Steiner, according to Emil Bock, who devotes several pages to him in his 2-volume biography of Steiner.
          >
          >  
          >
          > Stephen
          >
          >
          >
          > >________________________________
          > > From: be23566 fairoaks@...
          > >To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          > >Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 11:38 PM
          > >Subject: [steiner] Re: Steiner Autobiography - Chapter III
          > >
          > >
          > > 
          > >Here are some uses of spirit in the text. Could someone explain what "spiritual" means so that this text would make sense?
          > >Tom
          > >
          > >soul brings over something spiritual.
          > >as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses.
          > >has taken on the character of the spiritual.
          > >out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
          > >one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet this thought life.
          > >The spiritual vision perceives spirit
          > >
          > >--- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "juancompostella" juancompostella@ wrote:
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Chapter III - ending
          > >>
          > >> I found these concluding remarks really important to bring to this
          > >> discussion concerning how POF was born. - Juan
          > >>
          > >> "I was deeply stirred by the reading of Schiller's letters concerning
          > >> the aesthetic education of man. His statement that human consciousness
          > >> oscillates, as it were, back and forth between different states,
          > >> afforded me a connection with the notion that I had formed of the inner
          > >> working and weaving of the human soul. Schiller distinguished two states
          > >> of consciousness in which man evolves his relationship to the world.
          > >> When he surrenders himself to that which affects him through the senses,
          > >> he lives under the compulsion of nature. The sensations and impulses
          > >> determine his life. If he subjects himself to the logical laws and
          > >> principles of reason then he is living under a rational compulsion. But
          > >> he can evolve an intermediate state of consciousness. He can develop the
          > >> "aesthetic mood," which is not given over either on the one side to the
          > >> compulsion of nature, or on the other to the necessities of the reason.
          > >> In this aesthetic mood the soul lives through the senses; but into the
          > >> sense-perception and into the action set on foot by sense-stimuli the
          > >> soul brings over something spiritual. One perceives through the senses,
          > >> but as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses. In action one
          > >> surrenders oneself to the gratification of the present desire; but one
          > >> has so ennobled this desire that to him the good is pleasing and the
          > >> evil displeasing. Reason has then entered into union with the sensible.
          > >> The good becomes an instinct; instinct can safely direct itself, for it
          > >> has taken on the character of the spiritual. Schiller sees in this state
          > >> of consciousness that condition of the soul in which man can experience
          > >> and produce works of beauty. In the evolution of this state he sees the
          > >> coming to life in men of the true human being.
          > >>
          > >> These thoughts of Schiller's were to me very attractive. They implied
          > >> that man must first have his consciousness in a certain condition before
          > >> he can attain to a relationship to the phenomena of the world
          > >> corresponding to man's own being. Something was here given to me which
          > >> brought to greater clarity the questions which presented themselves
          > >> before me out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
          > >> Schiller spoke of the state of consciousness which must be present in
          > >> order that one may experience the beauty of the world. Might one not
          > >> also think of a state of consciousness which would mediate to us the
          > >> truth in the beings of things? If this is granted, then one must not,
          > >> after the fashion of Kant, observe the present state of human
          > >> consciousness and investigate whether this can enter into the true
          > >> beings of things. But one must first seek to discover the state of
          > >> consciousness through which man places himself in such a relationship to
          > >> the world that things and facts reveal their being to him.
          > >>
          > >> And I believed that I knew that such a state of consciousness is reached
          > >> up to a certain degree when man not only has thoughts which conceive
          > >> external things and events, but such thoughts that he himself
          > >> experiences them as thoughts. This living in thoughts revealed itself to
          > >> me as quite different from that in which man ordinarily exists and also
          > >> carries on ordinary scientific research. If one penetrates deeper and
          > >> deeper into thought-life, one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet
          > >> this thought life. One then takes the path of the soul into the spirit.
          > >> But on this inner way of the soul one arrives at a spiritual reality
          > >> which one also finds again within nature. One gains a deeper knowledge
          > >> of nature when one then faces nature after having in living thoughts
          > >> beheld the reality of the spirit.
          > >>
          > >> It became clearer and clearer to me how, through going forward beyond
          > >> the customary abstract thoughts to these spiritual perceptions â€"
          > >> which, however, the calmness and luminousness of the thought serve to
          > >> confirm â€" man lives himself into a reality from which customary
          > >> consciousness bars him out. This customary state has on one side the
          > >> living quality of the sense-perception; on the other the abstractness of
          > >> thought-conceiving. The spiritual vision perceives spirit as the senses
          > >> perceive nature; but it does not stand apart in thought from the
          > >> spiritual perception as the customary state of consciousness stands in
          > >> its thoughts apart from the sense-perceptions. Spiritual vision thinks
          > >> while it experiences spirit, and experiences while it sets to thinking
          > >> the awakened spirituality of man.
          > >>
          > >> A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest
          > >> upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
          > >> activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
          > >> thinking. I was approaching the state of soul in which I felt that I
          > >> might consider that the perception of the spiritual world which I bore
          > >> within me was confirmed before the forum of natural scientific thought.
          > >>
          > >> When these experiences passed through my mind I was in my twenty-second
          > >> year.
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Stephen Clarke
          Tom: As you say...and as I said: I look forward to more from you on POF, which, upon further reflection on my part, might have been an attempt to upgrade a
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 23, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Tom:

            As you say...and as I said:

            I look forward to more from you on POF, which, upon further reflection on my part, might have been an attempt to upgrade a mystical Kabbalah - which was as "scientific" as they could get in the 12th C., but still a wonderful and successful endeavor to systematize the religious/spiritual experience. If there is not a direct link between the two, there is at least a similar intent, which yields strong congruences....

            Stephen


            From: be23566 <fairoaks@...>
            To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 10:43 AM
            Subject: [steiner] Re: POF influences ?

             
            Stephen,
            I wouldn't be surprised if connections to the Philosophy Of Freedom weren't found in other systems. You do have to know the other system and also POF very well to see it and to be able to know the difference between none essential and essential connections (as thinking can always find a connection between any two thoughts). Steiner writes/thinks with incredible order and structure. I found that the structure of POF perfectly aligns with the thought-structure in his world-outlook diagram of the 12 views in his Human and Cosmic Thought. (diagram is here ) Here he called this order "cosmic thinking", so you could say the order and structure of POF is cosmic thinking, which expresses truth through 12 views.
            Tom Last
            philosophyoffreedom.com

            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Clarke <hozhonahasglii@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Tom, Juan:
            >
            > On the genesis of POF, you might like to look into Steiner's Kabbalist influences, since Kabbalah forms the armature of much of his cosmology, evolution, and other ideas. For instance, in the first past of what you quote, the process of discerning between the two compulsions and arriving at a 'synthesis' of balance can be mapped out quite clearly on the Sepherotic Tree: the arms of Mercy and Severity and their conjunction in the Middle column, and then its refinement upwards to further spiritual states. In the latter portion of what you cite, Steiner attempts to place this rudimentary conception into relationship with the European philosophical tradition.
            >
            > While this does not prove any necessary connection between Steiner's throught and Kabbalah, it might be an entre' into such a connection, should you be so inclined. Steiner's early (e.g.; POF) thought was subject to many diverse influences which later on became filtered and transformed into his highly personalized and formalized anthroposophy.Kabbalah does figure prominently - behind the scenes and unacknowledged - in other, major features of his anthroposophy, but you won't find it unless you look for it, but for this, you need to know your Kabbalah. If there is a "secret" to anthroposophy, this is it. E.g.: Friedrich Ekstein, kabbalist, etc., was a major influence on young Steiner, according to Emil Bock, who devotes several pages to him in his 2-volume biography of Steiner.
            >
            >  
            >
            > Stephen

          • Durward Starman
            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: drstarman@hotmail.com Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:01:02 To: Stephen Clarke Reply-To:
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 24, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: drstarman@...
              Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:01:02
              To: Stephen Clarke<hozhonahasglii@...>
              Reply-To: drstarman@...
              Subject: Re: [steiner] POF influences ?

              ****** I think Steiner is clear where in pure thinking his ideas came from, which in this case of the 2 opposite compulsions of Nature and Spirit, was from Schiller. Once one experiences this powerful polarity of 2 sides it's possible to find it in the 2 pillars of the kabbalistic tree, or in the Masonic pillars of Jachin and Boaz, or in Yin and Yang or straight & curved, etc. But because a spiritual reality can be experienced by an individual human spirit, Steiner or any of the other originators of those polarity-images need not have ever heard of the others. They all could discover it independently. Later Steiner saw it in Masonic symbols, in the kabbalah, etc., but could only recognize its significance because of how he had already experienced it directly, he says on many occasions. . -starman
              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Stephen Clarke <hozhonahasglii@...>
              Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:11:33
              To: <steiner@yahoogroups.com>; <fairoaks@...>; <juancompostella@...>
              Subject: [steiner] POF influences ?

               





              Dear Tom, Juan:


              On the genesis of POF, you might like to look into Steiner's Kabbalist influences, since Kabbalah forms the armature of much of his cosmology, evolution, and other ideas. For instance, in the first past of what you quote, the process of discerning between the two compulsions and arriving at a 'synthesis' of balance can be mapped out quite clearly on the Sepherotic Tree: the arms of Mercy and Severity and their conjunction in the Middle column, and then its refinement upwards to further spiritual states. In the latter portion of what you cite, Steiner attempts to place this rudimentary conception into relationship with the European philosophical tradition.


              While this does not prove any necessary connection between Steiner's throught and Kabbalah, it might be an entre' into such a connection, should you be so inclined. Steiner's early (e.g.; POF) thought was subject to many diverse influences which later on became filtered and transformed into his highly personalized and formalized anthroposophy. Kabbalah does figure prominently - behind the scenes and unacknowledged - in other, major features of his anthroposophy, but you won't find it unless you look for it, but for this, you need to know your Kabbalah. If there is a "secret" to anthroposophy, this is it. E.g.: Friedrich Ekstein, kabbalist, etc., was a major influence on young Steiner, according to Emil Bock, who devotes several pages to him in his 2-volume biography of Steiner.

               

              Stephen





              ----------------
              From: be23566 <fairoaks@...>
              To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 11:38 PM
              Subject: [steiner] Re: Steiner Autobiography - Chapter III



               

              Here are some uses of spirit in the text. Could someone explain what "spiritual" means so that this text would make sense?
              Tom

              soul brings over something spiritual.
              as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses.
              has taken on the character of the spiritual.
              out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
              one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet this thought life.
              The spiritual vision perceives spirit

              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com <mailto:steiner%40yahoogroups.com> , "juancompostella" <juancompostella@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Chapter III - ending
              >
              > I found these concluding remarks really important to bring to this
              > discussion concerning how POF was born. - Juan
              >
              > "I was deeply stirred by the reading of Schiller's letters concerning
              > the aesthetic education of man. His statement that human consciousness
              > oscillates, as it were, back and forth between different states,
              > afforded me a connection with the notion that I had formed of the inner
              > working and weaving of the human soul. Schiller distinguished two states
              > of consciousness in which man evolves his relationship to the world.
              > When he surrenders himself to that which affects him through the senses,
              > he lives under the compulsion of nature. The sensations and impulses
              > determine his life. If he subjects himself to the logical laws and
              > principles of reason then he is living under a rational compulsion. But
              > he can evolve an intermediate state of consciousness. He can develop the
              > "aesthetic mood," which is not given over either on the one side to the
              > compulsion of nature, or on the other to the necessities of the reason.
              > In this aesthetic mood the soul lives through the senses; but into the
              > sense-perception and into the action set on foot by sense-stimuli the
              > soul brings over something spiritual. One perceives through the senses,
              > but as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses. In action one
              > surrenders oneself to the gratification of the present desire; but one
              > has so ennobled this desire that to him the good is pleasing and the
              > evil displeasing. Reason has then entered into union with the sensible.
              > The good becomes an instinct; instinct can safely direct itself, for it
              > has taken on the character of the spiritual. Schiller sees in this state
              > of consciousness that condition of the soul in which man can experience
              > and produce works of beauty. In the evolution of this state he sees the
              > coming to life in men of the true human being.
              >
              > These thoughts of Schiller's were to me very attractive. They implied
              > that man must first have his consciousness in a certain condition before
              > he can attain to a relationship to the phenomena of the world
              > corresponding to man's own being. Something was here given to me which
              > brought to greater clarity the questions which presented themselves
              > before me out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
              > Schiller spoke of the state of consciousness which must be present in
              > order that one may experience the beauty of the world. Might one not
              > also think of a state of consciousness which would mediate to us the
              > truth in the beings of things? If this is granted, then one must not,
              > after the fashion of Kant, observe the present state of human
              > consciousness and investigate whether this can enter into the true
              > beings of things. But one must first seek to discover the state of
              > consciousness through which man places himself in such a relationship to
              > the world that things and facts reveal their being to him.
              >
              > And I believed that I knew that such a state of consciousness is reached
              > up to a certain degree when man not only has thoughts which conceive
              > external things and events, but such thoughts that he himself
              > experiences them as thoughts. This living in thoughts revealed itself to
              > me as quite different from that in which man ordinarily exists and also
              > carries on ordinary scientific research. If one penetrates deeper and
              > deeper into thought-life, one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet
              > this thought life. One then takes the path of the soul into the spirit.
              > But on this inner way of the soul one arrives at a spiritual reality
              > which one also finds again within nature. One gains a deeper knowledge
              > of nature when one then faces nature after having in living thoughts
              > beheld the reality of the spirit.
              >
              > It became clearer and clearer to me how, through going forward beyond
              > the customary abstract thoughts to these spiritual perceptions -
              > which, however, the calmness and luminousness of the thought serve to
              > confirm - man lives himself into a reality from which customary
              > consciousness bars him out. This customary state has on one side the
              > living quality of the sense-perception; on the other the abstractness of
              > thought-conceiving. The spiritual vision perceives spirit as the senses
              > perceive nature; but it does not stand apart in thought from the
              > spiritual perception as the customary state of consciousness stands in
              > its thoughts apart from the sense-perceptions. Spiritual vision thinks
              > while it experiences spirit, and experiences while it sets to thinking
              > the awakened spirituality of man.
              >
              > A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest
              > upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
              > activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
              > thinking. I was approaching the state of soul in which I felt that I
              > might consider that the perception of the spiritual world which I bore
              > within me was confirmed before the forum of natural scientific thought.
              >
              > When these experiences passed through my mind I was in my twenty-second
              > year.
            • juancompostella
              ... Tom, Steiner says at the very end of this third chapter of The Story of My Life , The spiritual vision perceives spirit as the senses perceive nature;
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 24, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "be23566" <fairoaks@...> wrote:
                >
                > Here are some uses of spirit in the text. Could someone explain what "spiritual" means so that this text would make sense?
                > Tom
                >
                > soul brings over something spiritual.
                > as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses.
                > has taken on the character of the spiritual.
                > out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
                > one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet this thought life.
                > The spiritual vision perceives spirit


                Tom, Steiner says at the very end of this third chapter of "The Story of My Life",

                "The spiritual vision perceives spirit as the senses perceive nature; but it does not stand apart in thought from the spiritual perception as the customary state of consciousness stands in its thoughts apart from the sense-perceptions. Spiritual vision thinks while it experiences spirit, and experiences while it sets to thinking
                the awakened spirituality of man.

                A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest
                upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
                activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
                thinking. I was approaching the state of soul in which I felt that I
                might consider that the perception of the spiritual world which I bore
                within me was confirmed before the forum of natural scientific thought."

                Now, what is of significance, and the main reason I began to re-read this book, is that Steiner is surveying everything through the lens of a natural clairvoyant faculty that has extended far beyond the age when memory starts. As seen, he remembers being 22 years old and looking quite specifically at the faculty of human thought, and how it could possibly lead to the recognition and perception of spiritual reality. Thus, his focal point is thinking, seen through the lens of a much larger faculty, i.e., natural clairvoyance.

                Going back to chapter II of his autobiography, it is noteworthy in a couple of places that he receives geometry books to read and draw geometric figures, and also a series of self-study books come out which enables him to gain proficiency in higher-level mathematics, i.e., calculus, trigonometry, analytical algebra, which helps to facilitate his understanding of the natural sciences very well.

                But what struck me as quite indicative of his having retained the natural clairvoyance is when he says, in retrospect, that after four years in the lower classes, and three years in the upper classes of the Realschule in Wiener-Neustadt, that he remembers experiencing it all as if in a dream. For seven years (11-18) he lived his schooling as dream-life.

                Quite remarkable.

                Juan
              • be23566
                A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual activity which in its
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 24, 2012
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                  "A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
                  activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
                  thinking."

                  We would have to speculate that Steiner's experience of what ever he was experiencing had the clarity and understood connections between the parts as pure conceptual thinking. We can even fantasize much more. If more awareness and alert observation were applied to the moment of intuitive insight perhaps more would be noticed about the nature of this experience. I can remember the first time I was conscious (self-aware) of an intuitive insight, it occurred after I started studying POF. I had had them before like most people but must not have been that aware of my thinking. I have had "visions" in the past but didn't find them of much value.

                  Tom Last


                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "juancompostella" <juancompostella@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "be23566" <fairoaks@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Here are some uses of spirit in the text. Could someone explain what "spiritual" means so that this text would make sense?
                  > > Tom
                  > >
                  > > soul brings over something spiritual.
                  > > as if the spiritual had streamed over into the senses.
                  > > has taken on the character of the spiritual.
                  > > out of my observation of nature and my spiritual experience.
                  > > one finds that spiritual reality comes to meet this thought life.
                  > > The spiritual vision perceives spirit
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom, Steiner says at the very end of this third chapter of "The Story of My Life",
                  >
                  > "The spiritual vision perceives spirit as the senses perceive nature; but it does not stand apart in thought from the spiritual perception as the customary state of consciousness stands in its thoughts apart from the sense-perceptions. Spiritual vision thinks while it experiences spirit, and experiences while it sets to thinking
                  > the awakened spirituality of man.
                  >
                  > A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest
                  > upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
                  > activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
                  > thinking. I was approaching the state of soul in which I felt that I
                  > might consider that the perception of the spiritual world which I bore
                  > within me was confirmed before the forum of natural scientific thought."
                  >
                  > Now, what is of significance, and the main reason I began to re-read this book, is that Steiner is surveying everything through the lens of a natural clairvoyant faculty that has extended far beyond the age when memory starts. As seen, he remembers being 22 years old and looking quite specifically at the faculty of human thought, and how it could possibly lead to the recognition and perception of spiritual reality. Thus, his focal point is thinking, seen through the lens of a much larger faculty, i.e., natural clairvoyance.
                  >
                  > Going back to chapter II of his autobiography, it is noteworthy in a couple of places that he receives geometry books to read and draw geometric figures, and also a series of self-study books come out which enables him to gain proficiency in higher-level mathematics, i.e., calculus, trigonometry, analytical algebra, which helps to facilitate his understanding of the natural sciences very well.
                  >
                  > But what struck me as quite indicative of his having retained the natural clairvoyance is when he says, in retrospect, that after four years in the lower classes, and three years in the upper classes of the Realschule in Wiener-Neustadt, that he remembers experiencing it all as if in a dream. For seven years (11-18) he lived his schooling as dream-life.
                  >
                  > Quite remarkable.
                  >
                  > Juan
                  >
                • juancompostella
                  ... rest upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual ... was experiencing had the clarity and understood connections between the parts as
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 25, 2012
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                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "be23566" <fairoaks@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > "A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
                    > activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
                    > thinking."
                    >
                    > We would have to speculate that Steiner's experience of what ever he was experiencing had the clarity and understood connections between the parts as pure conceptual thinking. We can even fantasize much more. If more awareness and alert observation were applied to the moment of intuitive insight perhaps more would be noticed about the nature of this experience. I can remember the first time I was conscious (self-aware) of an intuitive insight, it occurred after I started studying POF. I had had them before like most people but must not have been that aware of my thinking. I have had "visions" in the past but didn't find them of much value.
                    >
                    > Tom Last

                    I listened in a spiritual sense with the greatest possible sympathy to everything that came from Schröer. Yet I could not do otherwise even in his presence than build up independently in my own mind that toward which I was striving in my innermost spirit.

                    Schröer was an idealist, and the world of ideas as such was for him that which worked as a propulsive force in the creation of nature and of man. I then found it indeed difficult to express in words for myself the difference between Schröer's way of thinking and mine. He spoke of ideas as the propelling forces in history. He felt life in the idea itself. For me the life of the spirit was behind the ideas, and these were only the phenomena of that life in the human soul. I could then find no other terms for my way of thinking than "objective idealism." I wished thereby to denote that for me the reality is not in the idea; that the idea appears in man as the subject, but that just as colour appears on a physical object, so the idea appears on the spiritual object, and that the human mind – the subject – perceives it there as the eye perceives colour on a living being.

                    My conception, however, Schröer was very largely satisfied in the form of expression he used when we talked about that which reveals itself as "folk-soul." He spoke of this as of a real spiritual being which lives in the group of individual men who belong to a folk. In this matter his words took on a character which did not pertain merely to the designation of an idea abstractly held. And thus we both observed the texture of ancient Austria and the individualities of the several folk-souls active in Austria. From this side it was possible for me to conceive thoughts concerning the state of public life which penetrated more deeply into my mind.

                    Thus my experience at that time was strongly bound up with my relationship to Karl Julius Schröer. What, however, were more remote from him, and in which I strove most of all for an inner explanation, were the natural sciences.

                    I wished to know that my "objective idealism" was in harmony with the knowledge of nature.

                    http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA028/TSoML/GA028_c05.html

                    Awareness of an intuition is the seed-force for its cultivation in the garden of inspiration.  POF gave you that start.

                    Juan

                     

                  • juancompostella
                    ... So, studying POF brought forth intuitions that you then began to grasp in thought? It seems to me that this would be the catalyst for those specific
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 25, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "be23566" <fairoaks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > "A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
                      > activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
                      > thinking."
                      >
                      > We would have to speculate that Steiner's experience of what ever he was experiencing had the clarity and understood connections between the parts as pure conceptual thinking. We can even fantasize much more. If more awareness and alert observation were applied to the moment of intuitive insight perhaps more would be noticed about the nature of this experience. I can remember the first time I was conscious (self-aware) of an intuitive insight, it occurred after I started studying POF. I had had them before like most people but must not have been that aware of my thinking. I have had "visions" in the past but didn't find them of much value.
                      >
                      > Tom Last

                      So, studying POF brought forth intuitions that you then began to grasp in thought? It seems to me that this would be the catalyst for those specific efforts of sense-free thinking that yield such excellent results in furthering our own research. The proofs are in the 'pudding', are they not?

                      Thinking as Spiritual Activity would more than imply that behind our ideas which bubble up as an intuition, whether vague or not, and it would appear that most intuitions, once grasped in a form by thought, are begging for greater elaboration until realization occurs, are the first expression of the spirit working behind the scene in its relation to thinking itself.

                      And my experiences of sense-free thinking, which seems to be at the heart of POF as its dynamic activity, is always joy and happiness, which would be very Randian in its focus on the self and its personal attainments in satisfying the self. And it is virtuous work, this sense-free thinking, without a trace of altruism.

                      So, it would appear that efforts of sense-free thinking are Randian all the way; meeting her standards invlolving reason and individuality.

                      But there is also the exercise, entirely non-randian, where these thoughts are stopped and we give up the bliss of our results in free thinking. And this yields results of its own which proves something even deeper and more substantial. Its results dissolve any notion of a dark mystical undercurrent. Rather, it leads to the assuredness of a pre-existence before birth; an eternity with an immortal soul.

                      This is also experiential, and is continually being corroborated whenever acts of sense-free thinking are done, and then sacrificed.

                      Juan
                    • be23566
                      Where is this continually being corroborated taking place? Tom Last
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 26, 2012
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                        Where is this "continually being corroborated" taking place?

                        Tom Last

                        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "juancompostella" <juancompostella@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "be23566" <fairoaks@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > "A spiritual perception formed itself before my mind which did not rest upon dark mystical feeling. It proceeded much more in a spiritual
                        > > activity which in its thoroughness might be compared with mathematical
                        > > thinking."
                        > >
                        > > We would have to speculate that Steiner's experience of what ever he was experiencing had the clarity and understood connections between the parts as pure conceptual thinking. We can even fantasize much more. If more awareness and alert observation were applied to the moment of intuitive insight perhaps more would be noticed about the nature of this experience. I can remember the first time I was conscious (self-aware) of an intuitive insight, it occurred after I started studying POF. I had had them before like most people but must not have been that aware of my thinking. I have had "visions" in the past but didn't find them of much value.
                        > >
                        > > Tom Last
                        >
                        > So, studying POF brought forth intuitions that you then began to grasp in thought? It seems to me that this would be the catalyst for those specific efforts of sense-free thinking that yield such excellent results in furthering our own research. The proofs are in the 'pudding', are they not?
                        >
                        > Thinking as Spiritual Activity would more than imply that behind our ideas which bubble up as an intuition, whether vague or not, and it would appear that most intuitions, once grasped in a form by thought, are begging for greater elaboration until realization occurs, are the first expression of the spirit working behind the scene in its relation to thinking itself.
                        >
                        > And my experiences of sense-free thinking, which seems to be at the heart of POF as its dynamic activity, is always joy and happiness, which would be very Randian in its focus on the self and its personal attainments in satisfying the self. And it is virtuous work, this sense-free thinking, without a trace of altruism.
                        >
                        > So, it would appear that efforts of sense-free thinking are Randian all the way; meeting her standards invlolving reason and individuality.
                        >
                        > But there is also the exercise, entirely non-randian, where these thoughts are stopped and we give up the bliss of our results in free thinking. And this yields results of its own which proves something even deeper and more substantial. Its results dissolve any notion of a dark mystical undercurrent. Rather, it leads to the assuredness of a pre-existence before birth; an eternity with an immortal soul.
                        >
                        > This is also experiential, and is continually being corroborated whenever acts of sense-free thinking are done, and then sacrificed.
                        >
                        > Juan
                        >
                      • juancompostella
                        ... Within the one doing the investigating; the one engaging the process. My experience seems to work the opposite of the order indicated by Steiner s steps
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 26, 2012
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                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "be23566" <fairoaks@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Where is this "continually being corroborated" taking place?
                          >
                          > Tom Last

                          Within the one doing the investigating; the one engaging the process. My experience seems to work the opposite of the order indicated by Steiner's steps of Imagination, Inspiration, Intuition. I have made the determination that this is because he was an exact clairvoyant, and had always retained the natural clairvoyant faculty that normally begins to recede when our power of memory begins, which is around age four.

                          Steiner worked into thinking from this larger faculty of clairvoyance, which is akin to the remembrance of our pre-existent life before birth; it is the second dimension of early childhood, and follows the one-pointed consciousness of the womb, or first dimension.

                          When memory starts, we begin to enter the three dimensional world of subject-object distinctions, which is the first real stimulus to thinking, and also coincides with the beginnings of selfhood in Ego.

                          In a lecture that Steiner gave in December of 1906; possibly the first one concerning "Education in the Light of Spiritual Science", he says at the beginning of the lecture that the spiritual-scientific movement began 30 years ago. Well, I found that kind of curious until I did a little investigating and found that 1876 was that pivotally important time when he bought Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" and read it covertly in his history class at the Realschule in Wiener-Neustadt.

                          So, I was able to adduce that this was in fact his first big effort to expand and extend the natural clairvoyant faculty that had been preserved into his teenage and yound adult years. This reading of Kant at fifteen was the beginning of "modern exact clairvoyance", which is no doubt the propellant power and force for the creation of the spiritual-scientific movement. Reading the autobiography carefully has corroborated this intuition I had, and a number of other references also indicate that Steiner always had one foot in the spiritual worlds long after birth.

                          He sees thought through the lens of clairvoyance, and seeing that it is the faculty of the age, he is focused on what it will take to extend thinking all the way to the reality of spirit behind the sense perception and logic of the senses. This was his destiny to work out.

                          Then, when worked out, he began to extend POF into spiritual researches designed to communicate the facts of the objective spiritual worlds to his audience.

                          Juan
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