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Re: akasha

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  • carol
    Dunward: « Spiritual thinking can be understood by studying Dr. Steiner s philosophical works or any of his basic books. » Yes Dunward, spiritual thinking
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 10 7:02 AM
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      Dunward: « "Spiritual" thinking can be understood by studying Dr.
      Steiner's philosophical works or any of his basic books. »




      Yes Dunward, spiritual thinking can be understood following this
      path– if approached in an unprejudiced manner – but would this
      exercise guarantee that the conceived 'spiritual thinking' will be far
      reaching. I believe that such 'far-reaching' ideal in spiritual
      thinking unfolds within an individual who first humby labours to
      transforms his lower soul bodies – and this will take TIME, EFFORT
      and great courage – and during as well as onward, there arrives the
      complex 'task' by which an individual student of spiritual science
      must begin to permit the Higer Realms to reveal inner meaning of outward
      life to his/her soul by way of spiritual concepts..




      And Michaelic courage is fundament to this ...




      Dunward: « ..(It's unfortunate that the word spiritual has come to
      mean a "nice" person or vaguely "moral." That's an absurd
      oversimplification and doesn't help with understanding what spiritual
      thinking could mean.) »




      Sometimes through Anthroposophic experience, a person is moved show
      interest in their fellowman and LOVE the (Christ seed) potential
      residing in living souls which enables them too, to reflect the will of
      the Higher Realms.




      A concept from out of Christ Jesus's life which impresses me in this
      regard is the instance where Christ Jesus stooped down and washed the
      feet of someone lower than He. Christ Jesus showed, by example of
      humility and gratitude to one lower than He that without the obvious
      pressing vulnerable shown by mankind, He would not have had reason to
      come...




      Dunward, if I, an Anthroposophist, on chosen occasions permit myself to
      lend an ear to what my 'nice and vaguely moral' earthly brother or
      sister wish to convey, I do so following the example of the Living
      Christ and do so in expression of humility towards Michael.

      Our earthly life is extremely complex and have confirmation of this, you
      have only to consider how many lectures Rudolf Steiner gave - and I'm
      sure that in the end, he remained somewhat dissapointed for not
      having had a chance to convey alittle more...

      carol.
    • Durward Starman
      Dunward: « Spiritual thinking can be understood by studying Dr. Steiner s philosophical works or any of his basic books. » Yes Dunward, spiritual thinking
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 10 12:00 PM
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        Dunward: « "Spiritual" thinking can be understood by studying Dr.
        Steiner's philosophical works or any of his basic books. »

        Yes Dunward, spiritual thinking can be understood following this
        path– if approached in an unprejudiced manner – but would this
        exercise guarantee that the conceived 'spiritual thinking' will be far
        reaching. I believe that such 'far-reaching' ideal in spiritual
        thinking unfolds within an individual who first humby labours to
        transforms his lower soul bodies – and this will take TIME, EFFORT
        and great courage – and during as well as onward, there arrives the
        complex 'task' by which an individual student of spiritual science
        must begin to permit the Higer Realms to reveal inner meaning of outward
        life to his/her soul by way of spiritual concepts..

        And Michaelic courage is fundament to this ...

        Dunward: « ..(It's unfortunate that the word spiritual has come to
        mean a "nice" person or vaguely "moral." That's an absurd
        oversimplification and doesn't help with understanding what spiritual
        thinking could mean.) »

        Sometimes through Anthroposophic experience, a person is moved show
        interest in their fellowman and LOVE the (Christ seed) potential
        residing in living souls which enables them too, to reflect the will of
        the Higher Realms.

        A concept from out of Christ Jesus's life which impresses me in this
        regard is the instance where Christ Jesus stooped down and washed the
        feet of someone lower than He. Christ Jesus showed, by example of
        humility and gratitude to one lower than He that without the obvious
        pressing vulnerable shown by mankind, He would not have had reason to
        come...

        Dunward, if I, an Anthroposophist, on chosen occasions permit myself to
        lend an ear to what my 'nice and vaguely moral' earthly brother or
        sister wish to convey, I do so following the example of the Living
        Christ and do so in expression of humility towards Michael.

        Our earthly life is extremely complex and have confirmation of this, you
        have only to consider how many lectures Rudolf Steiner gave - and I'm
        sure that in the end, he remained somewhat dissapointed for not
        having had a chance to convey alittle more...


         
        Hello Carol,
         
           Unfortunately you seem to have misunderstood what I wrote as much as you misunderstood my name. Perhaps English is not your native language? I am reproducing the entire post below, as the parts you responded to would not be helpful for anyone trying to understand what "spiritual thinking" means in anthroposophy. It would have been much better to respond to the central part of it instead of read the 2 introductory sentences and then stop.
         
          To keep it simple, let's stick to what can be perceived by the senses, things in nature. If I look at a lily, the white color of its flowers (if it's in bloom, as many are now, at Eastertime) strikes me, and I may say "How beautiful". None of that--- the temporary appearance of the plant now, nor my feelings about it--- has anything to do with the SSSENTIAL NATURE of the plant, its being or spirit. If, however, I think the idea "lily" as a botanist does, with all the scientific understanding of this particular species of plant that comes from that thinking, THAT is operating on the spirit-level. Thinking in ESSENCES.
         
           Instead of Durward or Carol, think the thought "the human being." Granted, non-scientsts might need to practice a bit to do it. Try a few thoughts like these: quartz crystal, perennial plant, organism, substance, activity. All those are good examples of pure thinking. If you have not done any in awhile, you might need to study each one to make an empty word into an idea you can think.
         
            If you're not able to do so, let's continue the conversation about thinking, but not with emotions as they are not part of it. (Once you HAVE spiritual thoughts you will develop feelings for them, but if trying to have them at first, emotions are pointless.)
         
          And by the way, the idea "substance" does not have to mean physical substance like the elements. The akasha is etheric/astral substance. Thinking in pure essences uses astral (soul) "substance". 
         
         
          -starman

         


        Subject: RE: [steiner] akasha

        ******* 
         
           "Spiritual" thinking can be understood by studying Dr. Steiner's philosophical works or any of his basic books. (It's unfortunate that the word spiritual has come to mean a "nice" person or vaguely "moral." That's an absurd oversimplification and doesn't help with understanding what spiritual thinking could mean.)
         
           When you look at plants or any other natural things, the BODY is what tells you of their appearance (which of course is only temporary and constantly changes, to a greater or lesser extent). It does so through the senses. Through your SOUL, you make an image inside of what you perceive, and also have pleasure or displeasure in it: I like this flower's color, I don't like the smell of stinkweed. But whether you like a plant's appearance or not has nothing to do with the plant's objective nature. When you study plants scientifically, as a botanist does, then your THINKING, which is a SPIRITUAL ACTION--- TRUE thinking, not merely the "having of mental images"--- is able to grasp the ESSENCE of a thing. THINKING IN ESSENCES IS SPIRITUAL THINKING---- as opposed to the mere outer appearances of things, or your feelings of like/dislike about them. It is something that we are born able to do but which many adults do only rarely, unfortunately- -- but like any unused muscle, it can be developed again. We participate in the eternal through THIS kind of thinking, hence the knowledge of eternal Truth as well as of what is morally Good comes from it.
         
           A good place to work towards understanding this is the first chapter of Theosophy, which our small study group just went through. Just read the first few pages on Spirit, Soul and Body.
         
        Starman



        >
        > ============ =======
        > Hi Starman,
        > Wasn't sure you were still around, but I am glad that you are. Last time
        > I thought you said you would be devoting your time to other matters.
        >
        > In regards to a Steiner lecture that was read the other day, it was
        > mentioned that the spiritual thoughts of humans are recorded in the Akasha.
        > What do you think constitutes spiritual thought?
        >
        > [GA 152]
        > "What a man acquires in the way of occult knowledge lives not only in
        > his soul but is inscribed into the Akasha-substance of the world. When
        > we make a thought of occult science come alive in our souls, it is at
        > once inscribed into the Akasha-substance and this is of significance for
        > the general evolution of the world. For no being in the whole world
        > other than man is able to make in the Akasha-substance the inscriptions
        > that can be called by the name of Occult Science.
        >
        > It is important to bear in mind one characteristic feature of the
        > Akasha-substance, namely that in the spiritual world between death and a
        > new birth, man lives in this substance, just as here on the earth he
        > lives in the atmosphere."
        > -----
        > Also, we are warned not think of the spiritual as a very fine or wispy
        > material substance. But here he is saying that the Akasha is substance.
        > Any thoughts? Can anyone expand on this to help me understand?




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        • carol
          Hello Durward, I m sorry about the letter mixup in my spelling your name – I hope this didn t throw you off too much - it surprises even me when my eyes seem
          Message 3 of 13 , Apr 10 5:56 PM
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            Hello Durward, I'm sorry about the letter mixup in my spelling your name – I hope this didn't throw you off too much - it surprises even me when my eyes seem to rule something of my soul and then I miss something so obvious.


            You know Durward, I really don't want to engage in a contest with you – I enjoy when you show me your Anthroposophic qualities without condescention etc - and I sincerely hope that you will allow me to explain something to you - as gentle as I  possible can-  while also hoping that you will understand that I'm not trying to indoctrinate you.


            ... Seeing as your Akasha post quickly followed the Body Politics one – in fact it was a close offshoot of this second mentioned one – I in fact still retained the 'thought images' cited in the BP post when I came upon the description of 'spiritual thinking' cited in the Akasha post.


            I'm glad you explained yourself in your last address to me but most especially I'm glad that you reinforced your 'individuality' by pointing out to me that I had mis– read and thus mis- spelled a letter in your name.


            In this latest post you so beautifully presented : « .... Thinking in ESSENCES.

            Instead of Durward or Carol, think the thought "the human being... »


            However, in a closely tied post (Body Politics), you wrote the following concerning, some human beings : « The links are to wackos hawking conspiracy theory nonsense..  »


            Now Durward, concerning this second instance mentioned above, would it be possible for you to  consider that a genuine Anthroposophist can  listen out for and then 'hear' what in essense those particular human beings, those individuals, those living souls were wishing to convey, over and above what you, as an individual, as an Anthroposophist,  know and identify as 'lower astral' ?


            I've picked up an impression of you that you are not in the habit of associating immediate earthly events with Spiritual Science - I sort of understand that consciousness soul viewing of immediate earth activities – as they relate to world history – is not terribly evident nor desirable for many Anthroposophists. Even I avoided viewing world events through an 'Anthropsophical lens' for a great many years..


            ... I did in fact post a link which described an apparently 'objective' eyewitness account of secretive instructions being given to American police officers and this is apparently  happening pretty much in 'real time' - (I have a sister and brother in law who are police officers, so I'm perhaps a little astute about things like this ).


            My point in bringing the 'link' up was not to invite Anthroposophists to 'dive down' with their own soul forces and attune these with the lower astral soul activity which obviously is the comfortable range used by the individuals in the video. No - it was to OBJECTIVELY listen to the inside information which apparently a friend and colleague of these 2 individuals had recently conveyed to them.


            In Anthroposohy we do know that elitist occult movements have a hand in the power structure of our countries and we also know that given the opportunity, they do conspire against humanity's 'right' to FREE SPIRITUAL evolution. It was having immediately to do with this fact - itself recognized by spiritual science - that I posted the info as an act of sharing . By doing so, I wasn't actually stating that such a thing will happen - for example, it is also possible that the police officers were being tricked, that they were being prepared for another more unpleasant  'unannounced' event and that the bank 'holiday' was used as an obvious and convienent 'stand in'. Who knows ? The funny thing about this is that something secretive is apparently likely to  take place on the North American continent for the reason that something secretive is already recognized to happen.


            Again, how might this connect with consciousness soul development ? It appears that in  our consciousness soul epoch, when enough people have the courage to  look at uncomfortable facts - they inevitably form a solid force against which the elist occult forces must contend.  In other words,  the more people discover  secretive plans like the ones cited here,  the more these plans are forced to 'fall'.

            Also having to do with this topic is something which Rudolf Steiner mentioned in that there  remain many members Michael's school who have not yet found Anthropsophy.

            Carol.


             

             

          • Durward Starman
            ******* Sorry, Carol, I have no interest in this topic, or in conspiracy theories in general. I had an interest in Steven s question of what constitutes
            Message 4 of 13 , Apr 10 6:15 PM
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              ******* Sorry, Carol, I have no interest in this topic, or in conspiracy theories in general. I had an interest in Steven's question of what constitutes "spiritual thinking", and other parts of the study of anthroposophy, to which you responded.
               
                 If you regard wanting to stay on topic as being condescending, well I'm sorry, but I was answering his question, which has little to do with what you wrote.
               
                You're welcome to pursue your topic with others here if they are interested. Pursuit of it, I would say, will not contribute anything to ours. Political discussion usually generates much heat but little light. It has nothing to do with pure thinking except in the most arcane heights of political science, and there it's typically quite abstracted.

              Starman



               

              To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
              From: organicethics@...
              Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:56:31 +0000
              Subject: [steiner] Re: akasha




              Hello Durward, I'm sorry about the letter mixup in my spelling your name – I hope this didn't throw you off too much - it surprises even me when my eyes seem to rule something of my soul and then I miss something so obvious.


              You know Durward, I really don't want to engage in a contest with you – I enjoy when you show me your Anthroposophic qualities without condescention etc - and I sincerely hope that you will allow me to explain something to you - as gentle as I  possible can-  while also hoping that you will understand that I'm not trying to indoctrinate you.


              ... Seeing as your Akasha post quickly followed the Body Politics one – in fact it was a close offshoot of this second mentioned one – I in fact still retained the 'thought images' cited in the BP post when I came upon the description of 'spiritual thinking' cited in the Akasha post.


              I'm glad you explained yourself in your last address to me but most especially I'm glad that you reinforced your 'individuality' by pointing out to me that I had mis– read and thus mis- spelled a letter in your name.


              In this latest post you so beautifully presented : « .... Thinking in ESSENCES.

              Instead of Durward or Carol, think the thought "the human being... »


              However, in a closely tied post (Body Politics), you wrote the following concerning, some human beings : « The links are to wackos hawking conspiracy theory nonsense..  »


              Now Durward, concerning this second instance mentioned above, would it be possible for you to  consider that a genuine Anthroposophist can  listen out for and then 'hear' what in essense those particular human beings, those individuals, those living souls were wishing to convey, over and above what you, as an individual, as an Anthroposophist,  know and identify as 'lower astral' ?


              I've picked up an impression of you that you are not in the habit of associating immediate earthly events with Spiritual Science - I sort of understand that consciousness soul viewing of immediate earth activities – as they relate to world history – is not terribly evident nor desirable for many Anthroposophists. Even I avoided viewing world events through an 'Anthropsophical lens' for a great many years..


              ... I did in fact post a link which described an apparently 'objective' eyewitness account of secretive instructions being given to American police officers and this is apparently  happening pretty much in 'real time' - (I have a sister and brother in law who are police officers, so I'm perhaps a little astute about things like this ).


              My point in bringing the 'link' up was not to invite Anthroposophists to 'dive down' with their own soul forces and attune these with the lower astral soul activity which obviously is the comfortable range used by the individuals in the video. No - it was to OBJECTIVELY listen to the inside information which apparently a friend and colleague of these 2 individuals had recently conveyed to them.


              In Anthroposohy we do know that elitist occult movements have a hand in the power structure of our countries and we also know that given the opportunity, they do conspire against humanity's 'right' to FREE SPIRITUAL evolution. It was having immediately to do with this fact - itself recognized by spiritual science - that I posted the info as an act of sharing . By doing so, I wasn't actually stating that such a thing will happen - for example, it is also possible that the police officers were being tricked, that they were being prepared for another more unpleasant  'unannounced' event and that the bank 'holiday' was used as an obvious and convienent 'stand in'. Who knows ? The funny thing about this is that something secretive is apparently likely to  take place on the North American continent for the reason that something secretive is already recognized to happen.


              Again, how might this connect with consciousness soul development ? It appears that in  our consciousness soul epoch, when enough people have the courage to  look at uncomfortable facts - they inevitably form a solid force against which the elist occult forces must contend.  In other words,  the more people discover  secretive plans like the ones cited here,  the more these plans are forced to 'fall'.
              Also having to do with this topic is something which Rudolf Steiner mentioned in that there  remain many members Michael's school who have not yet found Anthropsophy.
              Carol.

               
               



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            • carol
              I m not interested in pursuing this topic with anyone. It s now Easter weekend, apparently also the 100th anniversary of Rudolf Steiner s initial mention of
              Message 5 of 13 , Apr 10 6:25 PM
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                I'm not interested in pursuing this topic with anyone.

                It's now Easter weekend, apparently also the 100th anniversary of
                Rudolf Steiner's initial mention of the Etheric Christ and it is within
                this that I will hold and guard my thoughts and soul forces. carol.






                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > ******* Sorry, Carol, I have no interest in this topic, or in
                conspiracy theories in general. I had an interest in Steven's question
                of what constitutes "spiritual thinking", and other parts of the study
                of anthroposophy, to which you responded.
                >
                >
                >
                > If you regard wanting to stay on topic as being condescending, well
                I'm sorry, but I was answering his question, which has little to do with
                what you wrote.
                >
                >
                >
                > You're welcome to pursue your topic with others here if they are
                interested. Pursuit of it, I would say, will not contribute anything to
                ours. Political discussion usually generates much heat but little light.
                It has nothing to do with pure thinking except in the most arcane
                heights of political science, and there it's typically quite abstracted.
                >
                >
                > Starman
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                > From: organicethics@...
                > Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:56:31 +0000
                > Subject: [steiner] Re: akasha
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Durward, I'm sorry about the letter mixup in my spelling your
                name – I hope this didn't throw you off too much - it surprises even
                me when my eyes seem to rule something of my soul and then I miss
                something so obvious.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > You know Durward, I really don't want to engage in a contest with you
                – I enjoy when you show me your Anthroposophic qualities without
                condescention etc - and I sincerely hope that you will allow me to
                explain something to you - as gentle as I possible can- while also
                hoping that you will understand that I'm not trying to indoctrinate you.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ... Seeing as your Akasha post quickly followed the Body Politics one
                – in fact it was a close offshoot of this second mentioned one –
                I in fact still retained the 'thought images' cited in the BP post when
                I came upon the description of 'spiritual thinking' cited in the Akasha
                post.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm glad you explained yourself in your last address to me but most
                especially I'm glad that you reinforced your 'individuality' by pointing
                out to me that I had mis– read and thus mis- spelled a letter in
                your name.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > In this latest post you so beautifully presented : « .... Thinking
                in ESSENCES.
                >
                > Instead of Durward or Carol, think the thought "the human being...
                »
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > However, in a closely tied post (Body Politics), you wrote the
                following concerning, some human beings : « The links are to wackos
                hawking conspiracy theory nonsense.. »
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Now Durward, concerning this second instance mentioned above, would it
                be possible for you to consider that a genuine Anthroposophist can
                listen out for and then 'hear' what in essense those particular human
                beings, those individuals, those living souls were wishing to convey,
                over and above what you, as an individual, as an Anthroposophist, know
                and identify as 'lower astral' ?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I've picked up an impression of you that you are not in the habit of
                associating immediate earthly events with Spiritual Science - I sort of
                understand that consciousness soul viewing of immediate earth activities
                – as they relate to world history – is not terribly evident nor
                desirable for many Anthroposophists. Even I avoided viewing world events
                through an 'Anthropsophical lens' for a great many years..
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ... I did in fact post a link which described an apparently
                'objective' eyewitness account of secretive instructions being given to
                American police officers and this is apparently happening pretty much in
                'real time' - (I have a sister and brother in law who are police
                officers, so I'm perhaps a little astute about things like this ).
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > My point in bringing the 'link' up was not to invite Anthroposophists
                to 'dive down' with their own soul forces and attune these with the
                lower astral soul activity which obviously is the comfortable range used
                by the individuals in the video. No - it was to OBJECTIVELY listen to
                the inside information which apparently a friend and colleague of these
                2 individuals had recently conveyed to them.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > In Anthroposohy we do know that elitist occult movements have a hand
                in the power structure of our countries and we also know that given the
                opportunity, they do conspire against humanity's 'right' to FREE
                SPIRITUAL evolution. It was having immediately to do with this fact -
                itself recognized by spiritual science - that I posted the info as an
                act of sharing . By doing so, I wasn't actually stating that such a
                thing will happen - for example, it is also possible that the police
                officers were being tricked, that they were being prepared for another
                more unpleasant 'unannounced' event and that the bank 'holiday' was used
                as an obvious and convienent 'stand in'. Who knows ? The funny thing
                about this is that something secretive is apparently likely to take
                place on the North American continent for the reason that something
                secretive is already recognized to happen.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Again, how might this connect with consciousness soul development ? It
                appears that in our consciousness soul epoch, when enough people have
                the courage to look at uncomfortable facts - they inevitably form a
                solid force against which the elist occult forces must contend. In other
                words, the more people discover secretive plans like the ones cited
                here, the more these plans are forced to 'fall'.
                >
                > Also having to do with this topic is something which Rudolf Steiner
                mentioned in that there remain many members Michael's school who have
                not yet found Anthropsophy.
                >
                > Carol.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
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