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Re: Body Politics

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  • carol
    Re: ... (I cannot today deny that I have not been forewarned - that given this individual s mesmerizing effect on people, should he become the next US
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 31, 2009
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      Re: "... (I cannot today deny that I have not been forewarned - that given this individual's mesmerizing effect on people, should he become the next US president, and should his vice presidential candidates predictions come true, that I may come to witness a quality of collective social behavior that I have not yet seen to date on this North American continent ...)"

      Our social sphere seems to have since adopted a 'droning' aptitude -  and we as individuals caught within it's confines,  also seem to be forced to adopt this - if this is not confused with obeisance, faith and hope in the  life of the new US presidency.

      I don't think the following link is meant to be an April fool's trick - I place the responsibility on yourselves to be the judge: 

      Urgent Fema update with a timeline..

      http://www.endtimesroundtable.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10268

      or


      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rT8tZwxlYo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eendtimesroundtable%2Ecom%2FphpBB3%2Fviewtopic%2Ephp%3Ff%3D23%26t%3D10268&feature=player_embedded



      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK1jjt46lPI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eendtimesroundtable%2Ecom%2FphpBB3%2Fviewtopic%2Ephp%3Ff%3D23%26t%3D10268&feature=player_embedded



      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "carol" <organicethics@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hello Robert,
      >
      > I'd like to share a small portion of how I 'lived' the first of the
      > posts under this title – the follow up one I did not open until just
      > now – and couldn't relate to it, though I'm presently aware of the
      > issue.
      >
      > My experience upon reading the first post was that I didn't quite take
      > to the interpretation – I found it a little hard to believe that the
      > individual in question would know and apply every 'scientifically proven
      > hypnotic technique' mentionned. I then accepted the spiritual concept
      > (within myself) that a certain amount of this individual's behavior
      > might come naturally – and that seeing as he likely adheres, to a
      > certain degree, to sinister political ideology and practice, that it
      > would be more (and I state this cautiously all the same) that an
      > Ahrimanic being would be acting through him.
      >
      > I do know that Steiner described in at least one of his lectures how a
      > certain amount of individuals would come to allow Ahrimanic beings to
      > act through them.
      >
      > And so it came that this explanation came satisfied my initial
      > ackwardness – as well, I accepted that once again, you, Robert the
      > very individual and independent Anthroposophist that you are, behaved
      > intuitively by chosing this material to post. (I'm not trying to butter
      > you up, I'm just thankful that you don't present something of lesser
      > value. )
      >
      > Even further, this week, I stumbled upon a few videos concerning this
      > same subject – as well, the contents of a prophetic fund raising
      > speech given by Obama's vice presidential candidate – thus allowing
      > me even more, to acknowledge the concern at hand, and once again, how
      > your choice of post might have truly represented an important intuitive
      > action.
      >
      > (I cannot today deny that I have not been forewarned - that given this
      > individual's mesmerizing effect on people, should he become the next US
      > president, and should his vice presidential candidates predictions come
      > true, that I may come to witness a quality of collective social behavior
      > that I have not yet seen to date on this North American continent ...)
      >
      > All in all, I now know no ambiguity to your action for your posting of
      > the given material more than a week ago – let it be underlined that
      > I was totally free to take it the way which I chose – I could have
      > ignored both items entirely. As it turned out, after more than a week's
      > passsing, I've discovered the contents of one of the posts to have
      > worked for me in pretty much the same way I've 'seen' political trivia
      > working within my Anthroposophic readings,
      >
      > Certain trivia can be very indicative for a clearer understanding of
      > outward global 'movements' - they can also offer clues to the nature of
      > a situation which, in this case, verily rests upon very fragile soil..
      >
      > Carol.
      >
      >
      > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Robert Mason robertsmason_99@
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > To Starman, who wrote:
      > >
      > > >>This is completely off topic for this list.
      > > There are plenty of political lists you can go
      > > onto to talk if you wish. This one is for the
      > > study of Rudolf Steiner and anthroposophy.<<
      > >
      > > Robert writes:
      > >
      > > Not altogether off-topic, I think. Beyond the
      > > purely "political" aspects (in the narrow sense
      > > of just who might be elected in this
      > > Presidential campaign, which even in itself
      > > might have Anthroposophical implications),
      > > there is the wider question of mass hypnosis, a
      > > question that is only exemplified in this one
      > > glaring example. And this question leads
      > > directly to the question of mass consciousness,
      > > and in particular to the question of the
      > > Consciousness Soul, especially to the question
      > > of the socio-political Consciousness Soul that
      > > Steiner said is developed particularly in the
      > > English-speaking peoples. Rather obviously, if
      > > masses of people can so easily be involuntarily
      > > hypnotized, they are not *conscious* of the
      > > process. And so they are not standing on their
      > > own feet as socio-political individuals, as
      > > English-speaking people "should" be doing in
      > > the present era. And so the question
      > > immediately arises: why not? -- why is the
      > > "instinctive" Consciousness Soul failing in
      > > this way? This seems to me to be a very
      > > Anthroposophical question.
      > >
      > > My follow-up post was an offhand afterthought,
      > > somewhat humorously sarcastic, as indicated by
      > > the reference to "trivia buffs". But even this
      > > has wider implications than the mere "politics"
      > > of the moment. It points toward the fact that
      > > almost no one knows who this man Obama really
      > > is (if anyone at all knows), and thus toward
      > > the fact that the "mass media" have failed to
      > > "vet" him -- as it would seem they should do to
      > > someone who might well get the red telephone on
      > > his desk. This thought might lead to the
      > > further consideration that the media likewise
      > > fail to vet any of our major politicians,
      > > really -- and to the further question: why
      > > not? And so this line of inquiry might lead to
      > > investigation of the place of the "press"
      > > within the Power Structure . . . and so on to
      > > questions about the methods and aims of the
      > > forces behind power-politics, etc. -- These are
      > > questions that Steiner often discussed.
      > >
      > > So, I think that my posts might lead to a
      > > thread relevant to Anthroposophy, if
      > > someone wanted to take the ball and run with
      > > it. Someone might even come up with just the
      > > right Steiner-said to send off sparks of
      > > insight. For instance: I half-recall that RS
      > > did once say something to explain the
      > > "suggestive" power of verbal imagery in public
      > > speeches, in this instance something about how
      > > the verbal image of the Pope as a cannoneer
      > > could practically "hypnotize" a crowd into
      > > accepting Papal authority. But I haven't found
      > > the quotation; maybe someone else might. -- And
      > > so on.
      > >
      > > Robert Mason
      > >
      >

    • Durward Starman
      *******The links are to wackos hawking conspiracy theory nonsense ----and also completely off-topic. What a complete waste of the internet. Does no one on this
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 4, 2009
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        *******The links are to wackos hawking conspiracy theory nonsense ----and also completely off-topic.
         
        What a complete waste of the internet.
         
        Does no one on this list want to talk about spiritual science at all? There are thousands of lists for political rantings and other lower-astral garbage. Steiner brought anthroposophy into the world for us to use it to lift ourselves up, not go lower.

        -starman



         

        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        From: organicethics@...
        Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 01:38:11 +0000
        Subject: [steiner] Re: Body Politics


        Re: "... (I cannot today deny that I have not been forewarned - that given this individual's mesmerizing effect on people, should he become the next US president, and should his vice presidential candidates predictions come true, that I may come to witness a quality of collective social behavior that I have not yet seen to date on this North American continent ...)"
        Our social sphere seems to have since adopted a 'droning' aptitude -  and we as individuals caught within it's confines,  also seem to be forced to adopt this - if this is not confused with obeisance, faith and hope in the  life of the new US presidency.
        I don't think the following link is meant to be an April fool's trick - I place the responsibility on yourselves to be the judge: 
        Urgent Fema update with a timeline..

        http://www.endtimes roundtable. com/phpBB3/ viewtopic. php?f=23&t=10268
        or




        http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=9rT8tZwxlYo&eurl=http%3A% 2F%2Fwww% 2Eendtimesroundt able%2Ecom% 2FphpBB3% 2Fviewtopic% 2Ephp%3Ff% 3D23%26t% 3D10268&feature=player_ embedded




        http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=QK1jjt46lPI&eurl=http%3A% 2F%2Fwww% 2Eendtimesroundt able%2Ecom% 2FphpBB3% 2Fviewtopic% 2Ephp%3Ff% 3D23%26t% 3D10268&feature=player_ embedded



        --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, "carol" <organicethics@ ...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hello Robert,
        >
        > I'd like to share a small portion of how I 'lived' the first of the
        > posts under this title – the follow up one I did not open until just
        > now – and couldn't relate to it, though I'm presently aware of the
        > issue.
        >
        > My experience upon reading the first post was that I didn't quite take
        > to the interpretation – I found it a little hard to believe that the
        > individual in question would know and apply every 'scientifically proven
        > hypnotic technique' mentionned. I then accepted the spiritual concept
        > (within myself) that a certain amount of this individual's behavior
        > might come naturally – and that seeing as he likely adheres, to a
        > certain degree, to sinister political ideology and practice, that it
        > would be more (and I state this cautiously all the same) that an
        > Ahrimanic being would be acting through him.
        >
        > I do know that Steiner described in at least one of his lectures how a
        > certain amount of individuals would come to allow Ahrimanic beings to
        > act through them.
        >
        > And so it came that this explanation came satisfied my initial
        > ackwardness – as well, I accepted that once again, you, Robert the
        > very individual and independent Anthroposophist that you are, behaved
        > intuitively by chosing this material to post. (I'm not trying to butter
        > you up, I'm just thankful that you don't present something of lesser
        > value. )
        >
        > Even further, this week, I stumbled upon a few videos concerning this
        > same subject – as well, the contents of a prophetic fund raising
        > speech given by Obama's vice presidential candidate – thus allowing
        > me even more, to acknowledge the concern at hand, and once again, how
        > your choice of post might have truly represented an important intuitive
        > action.
        >
        > (I cannot today deny that I have not been forewarned - that given this
        > individual's mesmerizing effect on people, should he become the next US
        > president, and should his vice presidential candidates predictions come
        > true, that I may come to witness a quality of collective social behavior
        > that I have not yet seen to date on this North American continent ...)
        >
        > All in all, I now know no ambiguity to your action for your posting of
        > the given material more than a week ago – let it be underlined that
        > I was totally free to take it the way which I chose – I could have
        > ignored both items entirely. As it turned out, after more than a week's
        > passsing, I've discovered the contents of one of the posts to have
        > worked for me in pretty much the same way I've 'seen' political trivia
        > working within my Anthroposophic readings,
        >
        > Certain trivia can be very indicative for a clearer understanding of
        > outward global 'movements' - they can also offer clues to the nature of
        > a situation which, in this case, verily rests upon very fragile soil..
        >
        > Carol.
        >
        >
        > --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Robert Mason robertsmason_ 99@
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > To Starman, who wrote:
        > >
        > > >>This is completely off topic for this list.
        > > There are plenty of political lists you can go
        > > onto to talk if you wish. This one is for the
        > > study of Rudolf Steiner and anthroposophy.<<
        > >
        > > Robert writes:
        > >
        > > Not altogether off-topic, I think. Beyond the
        > > purely "political" aspects (in the narrow sense
        > > of just who might be elected in this
        > > Presidential campaign, which even in itself
        > > might have Anthroposophical implications) ,
        > > there is the wider question of mass hypnosis, a
        > > question that is only exemplified in this one
        > > glaring example. And this question leads
        > > directly to the question of mass consciousness,
        > > and in particular to the question of the
        > > Consciousness Soul, especially to the question
        > > of the socio-political Consciousness Soul that
        > > Steiner said is developed particularly in the
        > > English-speaking peoples. Rather obviously, if
        > > masses of people can so easily be involuntarily
        > > hypnotized, they are not *conscious* of the
        > > process. And so they are not standing on their
        > > own feet as socio-political individuals, as
        > > English-speaking people "should" be doing in
        > > the present era. And so the question
        > > immediately arises: why not? -- why is the
        > > "instinctive" Consciousness Soul failing in
        > > this way? This seems to me to be a very
        > > Anthroposophical question.
        > >
        > > My follow-up post was an offhand afterthought,
        > > somewhat humorously sarcastic, as indicated by
        > > the reference to "trivia buffs". But even this
        > > has wider implications than the mere "politics"
        > > of the moment. It points toward the fact that
        > > almost no one knows who this man Obama really
        > > is (if anyone at all knows), and thus toward
        > > the fact that the "mass media" have failed to
        > > "vet" him -- as it would seem they should do to
        > > someone who might well get the red telephone on
        > > his desk. This thought might lead to the
        > > further consideration that the media likewise
        > > fail to vet any of our major politicians,
        > > really -- and to the further question: why
        > > not? And so this line of inquiry might lead to
        > > investigation of the place of the "press"
        > > within the Power Structure . . . and so on to
        > > questions about the methods and aims of the
        > > forces behind power-politics, etc. -- These are
        > > questions that Steiner often discussed.
        > >
        > > So, I think that my posts might lead to a
        > > thread relevant to Anthroposophy, if
        > > someone wanted to take the ball and run with
        > > it. Someone might even come up with just the
        > > right Steiner-said to send off sparks of
        > > insight. For instance: I half-recall that RS
        > > did once say something to explain the
        > > "suggestive" power of verbal imagery in public
        > > speeches, in this instance something about how
        > > the verbal image of the Pope as a cannoneer
        > > could practically "hypnotize" a crowd into
        > > accepting Papal authority. But I haven't found
        > > the quotation; maybe someone else might. -- And
        > > so on.
        > >
        > > Robert Mason
        > >
        >




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      • celestial_vision
        ... =================== Hi Starman, Wasn t sure you were still around, but I am glad that you are. Last time I thought you said you would be devoting your time
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 5, 2009
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          Durward Starman wrote:

          > Does no one on this list want to talk about spiritual science at all?
          > There are thousands of lists for political rantings and other
          > lower-astral garbage. Steiner brought anthroposophy into the world for
          > us to use it to lift ourselves up, not go lower.
          >
          > -starman

          ===================
          Hi Starman,
          Wasn't sure you were still around, but I am glad that you are. Last time
          I thought you said you would be devoting your time to other matters.

          In regards to a Steiner lecture that was read the other day, it was
          mentioned that the spiritual thoughts of humans are recorded in the Akasha.
          What do you think constitutes spiritual thought?

          [GA 152]
          "What a man acquires in the way of occult knowledge lives not only in
          his soul but is inscribed into the Akasha-substance of the world. When
          we make a thought of occult science come alive in our souls, it is at
          once inscribed into the Akasha-substance and this is of significance for
          the general evolution of the world. For no being in the whole world
          other than man is able to make in the Akasha-substance the inscriptions
          that can be called by the name of Occult Science.

          It is important to bear in mind one characteristic feature of the
          Akasha-substance, namely that in the spiritual world between death and a
          new birth, man lives in this substance, just as here on the earth he
          lives in the atmosphere."
          -----
          Also, we are warned not think of the spiritual as a very fine or wispy
          material substance. But here he is saying that the Akasha is substance.
          Any thoughts? Can anyone expand on this to help me understand?
          - Stephen
        • Durward Starman
          ******* Well, I am going to give the list one more try. I ll also start posting the Calendar of the Soul mantras again at Easter. I hope someone here uses them
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 5, 2009
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            ******* Well, I am going to give the list one more try. I'll also start posting the Calendar of the Soul mantras again at Easter. I hope someone here uses them ---and uses the list for something.
             
               "Spiritual" thinking can be understood by studying Dr. Steiner's philosophical works or any of his basic books. (It's unfortunate that the word spiritual has come to mean a "nice" person or vaguely "moral." That's an absurd oversimplification and doesn't help with understanding what spiritual thinking could mean.)
             
               When you look at plants or any other natural things, the BODY is what tells you of their appearance (which of course is only temporary and constantly changes, to a greater or lesser extent). It does so through the senses. Through your SOUL, you make an image inside of what you perceive, and also have pleasure or displeasure in it: I like this flower's color, I don't like the smell of stinkweed. But whether you like a plant's appearance or not has nothing to do with the plant's objective nature. When you study plants scientifically, as a botanist does, then your THINKING, which is a SPIRITUAL ACTION--- TRUE thinking, not merely the "having of mental images"--- is able to grasp the ESSENCE of a thing. THINKING IN ESSENCES IS SPIRITUAL THINKING---- as opposed to the mere outer appearances of things, or your feelings of like/dislike about them. It is something that we are born able to do but which many adults do only rarely, unfortunately--- but like any unused muscle, it can be developed again. We participate in the eternal through THIS kind of thinking, hence the knowledge of eternal Truth as well as of what is morally Good comes from it.
             
               A good place to work towards understanding this is the first chapter of Theosophy, which our small study group just went through. Just read the first few pages on Spirit, Soul and Body.
             
            Starman

            www.DrStarman.com


             
            > To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
            > From: celestial_vision@...
            > Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 13:33:58 -0400
            > Subject: [steiner] akasha
            >
            > Durward Starman wrote:
            >
            > > Does no one on this list want to talk about spiritual science at all?
            > > There are thousands of lists for political rantings and other
            > > lower-astral garbage. Steiner brought anthroposophy into the world for
            > > us to use it to lift ourselves up, not go lower.
            > >
            > > -starman
            >
            > ===================
            > Hi Starman,
            > Wasn't sure you were still around, but I am glad that you are. Last time
            > I thought you said you would be devoting your time to other matters.
            >
            > In regards to a Steiner lecture that was read the other day, it was
            > mentioned that the spiritual thoughts of humans are recorded in the Akasha.
            > What do you think constitutes spiritual thought?
            >
            > [GA 152]
            > "What a man acquires in the way of occult knowledge lives not only in
            > his soul but is inscribed into the Akasha-substance of the world. When
            > we make a thought of occult science come alive in our souls, it is at
            > once inscribed into the Akasha-substance and this is of significance for
            > the general evolution of the world. For no being in the whole world
            > other than man is able to make in the Akasha-substance the inscriptions
            > that can be called by the name of Occult Science.
            >
            > It is important to bear in mind one characteristic feature of the
            > Akasha-substance, namely that in the spiritual world between death and a
            > new birth, man lives in this substance, just as here on the earth he
            > lives in the atmosphere."
            > -----
            > Also, we are warned not think of the spiritual as a very fine or wispy
            > material substance. But here he is saying that the Akasha is substance.
            > Any thoughts? Can anyone expand on this to help me understand?
            > - Stephen
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Post to steiner@egroups.comSearch the archives of the group at:
            > http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html
            >
            > Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
            > http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
            >
            > ommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
            > http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html
            >
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          • carol
            Dunward: « Spiritual thinking can be understood by studying Dr. Steiner s philosophical works or any of his basic books. » Yes Dunward, spiritual thinking
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 10, 2009
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              Dunward: « "Spiritual" thinking can be understood by studying Dr.
              Steiner's philosophical works or any of his basic books. »




              Yes Dunward, spiritual thinking can be understood following this
              path– if approached in an unprejudiced manner – but would this
              exercise guarantee that the conceived 'spiritual thinking' will be far
              reaching. I believe that such 'far-reaching' ideal in spiritual
              thinking unfolds within an individual who first humby labours to
              transforms his lower soul bodies – and this will take TIME, EFFORT
              and great courage – and during as well as onward, there arrives the
              complex 'task' by which an individual student of spiritual science
              must begin to permit the Higer Realms to reveal inner meaning of outward
              life to his/her soul by way of spiritual concepts..




              And Michaelic courage is fundament to this ...




              Dunward: « ..(It's unfortunate that the word spiritual has come to
              mean a "nice" person or vaguely "moral." That's an absurd
              oversimplification and doesn't help with understanding what spiritual
              thinking could mean.) »




              Sometimes through Anthroposophic experience, a person is moved show
              interest in their fellowman and LOVE the (Christ seed) potential
              residing in living souls which enables them too, to reflect the will of
              the Higher Realms.




              A concept from out of Christ Jesus's life which impresses me in this
              regard is the instance where Christ Jesus stooped down and washed the
              feet of someone lower than He. Christ Jesus showed, by example of
              humility and gratitude to one lower than He that without the obvious
              pressing vulnerable shown by mankind, He would not have had reason to
              come...




              Dunward, if I, an Anthroposophist, on chosen occasions permit myself to
              lend an ear to what my 'nice and vaguely moral' earthly brother or
              sister wish to convey, I do so following the example of the Living
              Christ and do so in expression of humility towards Michael.

              Our earthly life is extremely complex and have confirmation of this, you
              have only to consider how many lectures Rudolf Steiner gave - and I'm
              sure that in the end, he remained somewhat dissapointed for not
              having had a chance to convey alittle more...

              carol.
            • Durward Starman
              Dunward: « Spiritual thinking can be understood by studying Dr. Steiner s philosophical works or any of his basic books. » Yes Dunward, spiritual thinking
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 10, 2009
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                Dunward: « "Spiritual" thinking can be understood by studying Dr.
                Steiner's philosophical works or any of his basic books. »

                Yes Dunward, spiritual thinking can be understood following this
                path– if approached in an unprejudiced manner – but would this
                exercise guarantee that the conceived 'spiritual thinking' will be far
                reaching. I believe that such 'far-reaching' ideal in spiritual
                thinking unfolds within an individual who first humby labours to
                transforms his lower soul bodies – and this will take TIME, EFFORT
                and great courage – and during as well as onward, there arrives the
                complex 'task' by which an individual student of spiritual science
                must begin to permit the Higer Realms to reveal inner meaning of outward
                life to his/her soul by way of spiritual concepts..

                And Michaelic courage is fundament to this ...

                Dunward: « ..(It's unfortunate that the word spiritual has come to
                mean a "nice" person or vaguely "moral." That's an absurd
                oversimplification and doesn't help with understanding what spiritual
                thinking could mean.) »

                Sometimes through Anthroposophic experience, a person is moved show
                interest in their fellowman and LOVE the (Christ seed) potential
                residing in living souls which enables them too, to reflect the will of
                the Higher Realms.

                A concept from out of Christ Jesus's life which impresses me in this
                regard is the instance where Christ Jesus stooped down and washed the
                feet of someone lower than He. Christ Jesus showed, by example of
                humility and gratitude to one lower than He that without the obvious
                pressing vulnerable shown by mankind, He would not have had reason to
                come...

                Dunward, if I, an Anthroposophist, on chosen occasions permit myself to
                lend an ear to what my 'nice and vaguely moral' earthly brother or
                sister wish to convey, I do so following the example of the Living
                Christ and do so in expression of humility towards Michael.

                Our earthly life is extremely complex and have confirmation of this, you
                have only to consider how many lectures Rudolf Steiner gave - and I'm
                sure that in the end, he remained somewhat dissapointed for not
                having had a chance to convey alittle more...


                 
                Hello Carol,
                 
                   Unfortunately you seem to have misunderstood what I wrote as much as you misunderstood my name. Perhaps English is not your native language? I am reproducing the entire post below, as the parts you responded to would not be helpful for anyone trying to understand what "spiritual thinking" means in anthroposophy. It would have been much better to respond to the central part of it instead of read the 2 introductory sentences and then stop.
                 
                  To keep it simple, let's stick to what can be perceived by the senses, things in nature. If I look at a lily, the white color of its flowers (if it's in bloom, as many are now, at Eastertime) strikes me, and I may say "How beautiful". None of that--- the temporary appearance of the plant now, nor my feelings about it--- has anything to do with the SSSENTIAL NATURE of the plant, its being or spirit. If, however, I think the idea "lily" as a botanist does, with all the scientific understanding of this particular species of plant that comes from that thinking, THAT is operating on the spirit-level. Thinking in ESSENCES.
                 
                   Instead of Durward or Carol, think the thought "the human being." Granted, non-scientsts might need to practice a bit to do it. Try a few thoughts like these: quartz crystal, perennial plant, organism, substance, activity. All those are good examples of pure thinking. If you have not done any in awhile, you might need to study each one to make an empty word into an idea you can think.
                 
                    If you're not able to do so, let's continue the conversation about thinking, but not with emotions as they are not part of it. (Once you HAVE spiritual thoughts you will develop feelings for them, but if trying to have them at first, emotions are pointless.)
                 
                  And by the way, the idea "substance" does not have to mean physical substance like the elements. The akasha is etheric/astral substance. Thinking in pure essences uses astral (soul) "substance". 
                 
                 
                  -starman

                 


                Subject: RE: [steiner] akasha

                ******* 
                 
                   "Spiritual" thinking can be understood by studying Dr. Steiner's philosophical works or any of his basic books. (It's unfortunate that the word spiritual has come to mean a "nice" person or vaguely "moral." That's an absurd oversimplification and doesn't help with understanding what spiritual thinking could mean.)
                 
                   When you look at plants or any other natural things, the BODY is what tells you of their appearance (which of course is only temporary and constantly changes, to a greater or lesser extent). It does so through the senses. Through your SOUL, you make an image inside of what you perceive, and also have pleasure or displeasure in it: I like this flower's color, I don't like the smell of stinkweed. But whether you like a plant's appearance or not has nothing to do with the plant's objective nature. When you study plants scientifically, as a botanist does, then your THINKING, which is a SPIRITUAL ACTION--- TRUE thinking, not merely the "having of mental images"--- is able to grasp the ESSENCE of a thing. THINKING IN ESSENCES IS SPIRITUAL THINKING---- as opposed to the mere outer appearances of things, or your feelings of like/dislike about them. It is something that we are born able to do but which many adults do only rarely, unfortunately- -- but like any unused muscle, it can be developed again. We participate in the eternal through THIS kind of thinking, hence the knowledge of eternal Truth as well as of what is morally Good comes from it.
                 
                   A good place to work towards understanding this is the first chapter of Theosophy, which our small study group just went through. Just read the first few pages on Spirit, Soul and Body.
                 
                Starman



                >
                > ============ =======
                > Hi Starman,
                > Wasn't sure you were still around, but I am glad that you are. Last time
                > I thought you said you would be devoting your time to other matters.
                >
                > In regards to a Steiner lecture that was read the other day, it was
                > mentioned that the spiritual thoughts of humans are recorded in the Akasha.
                > What do you think constitutes spiritual thought?
                >
                > [GA 152]
                > "What a man acquires in the way of occult knowledge lives not only in
                > his soul but is inscribed into the Akasha-substance of the world. When
                > we make a thought of occult science come alive in our souls, it is at
                > once inscribed into the Akasha-substance and this is of significance for
                > the general evolution of the world. For no being in the whole world
                > other than man is able to make in the Akasha-substance the inscriptions
                > that can be called by the name of Occult Science.
                >
                > It is important to bear in mind one characteristic feature of the
                > Akasha-substance, namely that in the spiritual world between death and a
                > new birth, man lives in this substance, just as here on the earth he
                > lives in the atmosphere."
                > -----
                > Also, we are warned not think of the spiritual as a very fine or wispy
                > material substance. But here he is saying that the Akasha is substance.
                > Any thoughts? Can anyone expand on this to help me understand?




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                • carol
                  Hello Durward, I m sorry about the letter mixup in my spelling your name – I hope this didn t throw you off too much - it surprises even me when my eyes seem
                  Message 7 of 13 , Apr 10, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Hello Durward, I'm sorry about the letter mixup in my spelling your name – I hope this didn't throw you off too much - it surprises even me when my eyes seem to rule something of my soul and then I miss something so obvious.


                    You know Durward, I really don't want to engage in a contest with you – I enjoy when you show me your Anthroposophic qualities without condescention etc - and I sincerely hope that you will allow me to explain something to you - as gentle as I  possible can-  while also hoping that you will understand that I'm not trying to indoctrinate you.


                    ... Seeing as your Akasha post quickly followed the Body Politics one – in fact it was a close offshoot of this second mentioned one – I in fact still retained the 'thought images' cited in the BP post when I came upon the description of 'spiritual thinking' cited in the Akasha post.


                    I'm glad you explained yourself in your last address to me but most especially I'm glad that you reinforced your 'individuality' by pointing out to me that I had mis– read and thus mis- spelled a letter in your name.


                    In this latest post you so beautifully presented : « .... Thinking in ESSENCES.

                    Instead of Durward or Carol, think the thought "the human being... »


                    However, in a closely tied post (Body Politics), you wrote the following concerning, some human beings : « The links are to wackos hawking conspiracy theory nonsense..  »


                    Now Durward, concerning this second instance mentioned above, would it be possible for you to  consider that a genuine Anthroposophist can  listen out for and then 'hear' what in essense those particular human beings, those individuals, those living souls were wishing to convey, over and above what you, as an individual, as an Anthroposophist,  know and identify as 'lower astral' ?


                    I've picked up an impression of you that you are not in the habit of associating immediate earthly events with Spiritual Science - I sort of understand that consciousness soul viewing of immediate earth activities – as they relate to world history – is not terribly evident nor desirable for many Anthroposophists. Even I avoided viewing world events through an 'Anthropsophical lens' for a great many years..


                    ... I did in fact post a link which described an apparently 'objective' eyewitness account of secretive instructions being given to American police officers and this is apparently  happening pretty much in 'real time' - (I have a sister and brother in law who are police officers, so I'm perhaps a little astute about things like this ).


                    My point in bringing the 'link' up was not to invite Anthroposophists to 'dive down' with their own soul forces and attune these with the lower astral soul activity which obviously is the comfortable range used by the individuals in the video. No - it was to OBJECTIVELY listen to the inside information which apparently a friend and colleague of these 2 individuals had recently conveyed to them.


                    In Anthroposohy we do know that elitist occult movements have a hand in the power structure of our countries and we also know that given the opportunity, they do conspire against humanity's 'right' to FREE SPIRITUAL evolution. It was having immediately to do with this fact - itself recognized by spiritual science - that I posted the info as an act of sharing . By doing so, I wasn't actually stating that such a thing will happen - for example, it is also possible that the police officers were being tricked, that they were being prepared for another more unpleasant  'unannounced' event and that the bank 'holiday' was used as an obvious and convienent 'stand in'. Who knows ? The funny thing about this is that something secretive is apparently likely to  take place on the North American continent for the reason that something secretive is already recognized to happen.


                    Again, how might this connect with consciousness soul development ? It appears that in  our consciousness soul epoch, when enough people have the courage to  look at uncomfortable facts - they inevitably form a solid force against which the elist occult forces must contend.  In other words,  the more people discover  secretive plans like the ones cited here,  the more these plans are forced to 'fall'.

                    Also having to do with this topic is something which Rudolf Steiner mentioned in that there  remain many members Michael's school who have not yet found Anthropsophy.

                    Carol.


                     

                     

                  • Durward Starman
                    ******* Sorry, Carol, I have no interest in this topic, or in conspiracy theories in general. I had an interest in Steven s question of what constitutes
                    Message 8 of 13 , Apr 10, 2009
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                      ******* Sorry, Carol, I have no interest in this topic, or in conspiracy theories in general. I had an interest in Steven's question of what constitutes "spiritual thinking", and other parts of the study of anthroposophy, to which you responded.
                       
                         If you regard wanting to stay on topic as being condescending, well I'm sorry, but I was answering his question, which has little to do with what you wrote.
                       
                        You're welcome to pursue your topic with others here if they are interested. Pursuit of it, I would say, will not contribute anything to ours. Political discussion usually generates much heat but little light. It has nothing to do with pure thinking except in the most arcane heights of political science, and there it's typically quite abstracted.

                      Starman



                       

                      To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                      From: organicethics@...
                      Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:56:31 +0000
                      Subject: [steiner] Re: akasha




                      Hello Durward, I'm sorry about the letter mixup in my spelling your name – I hope this didn't throw you off too much - it surprises even me when my eyes seem to rule something of my soul and then I miss something so obvious.


                      You know Durward, I really don't want to engage in a contest with you – I enjoy when you show me your Anthroposophic qualities without condescention etc - and I sincerely hope that you will allow me to explain something to you - as gentle as I  possible can-  while also hoping that you will understand that I'm not trying to indoctrinate you.


                      ... Seeing as your Akasha post quickly followed the Body Politics one – in fact it was a close offshoot of this second mentioned one – I in fact still retained the 'thought images' cited in the BP post when I came upon the description of 'spiritual thinking' cited in the Akasha post.


                      I'm glad you explained yourself in your last address to me but most especially I'm glad that you reinforced your 'individuality' by pointing out to me that I had mis– read and thus mis- spelled a letter in your name.


                      In this latest post you so beautifully presented : « .... Thinking in ESSENCES.

                      Instead of Durward or Carol, think the thought "the human being... »


                      However, in a closely tied post (Body Politics), you wrote the following concerning, some human beings : « The links are to wackos hawking conspiracy theory nonsense..  »


                      Now Durward, concerning this second instance mentioned above, would it be possible for you to  consider that a genuine Anthroposophist can  listen out for and then 'hear' what in essense those particular human beings, those individuals, those living souls were wishing to convey, over and above what you, as an individual, as an Anthroposophist,  know and identify as 'lower astral' ?


                      I've picked up an impression of you that you are not in the habit of associating immediate earthly events with Spiritual Science - I sort of understand that consciousness soul viewing of immediate earth activities – as they relate to world history – is not terribly evident nor desirable for many Anthroposophists. Even I avoided viewing world events through an 'Anthropsophical lens' for a great many years..


                      ... I did in fact post a link which described an apparently 'objective' eyewitness account of secretive instructions being given to American police officers and this is apparently  happening pretty much in 'real time' - (I have a sister and brother in law who are police officers, so I'm perhaps a little astute about things like this ).


                      My point in bringing the 'link' up was not to invite Anthroposophists to 'dive down' with their own soul forces and attune these with the lower astral soul activity which obviously is the comfortable range used by the individuals in the video. No - it was to OBJECTIVELY listen to the inside information which apparently a friend and colleague of these 2 individuals had recently conveyed to them.


                      In Anthroposohy we do know that elitist occult movements have a hand in the power structure of our countries and we also know that given the opportunity, they do conspire against humanity's 'right' to FREE SPIRITUAL evolution. It was having immediately to do with this fact - itself recognized by spiritual science - that I posted the info as an act of sharing . By doing so, I wasn't actually stating that such a thing will happen - for example, it is also possible that the police officers were being tricked, that they were being prepared for another more unpleasant  'unannounced' event and that the bank 'holiday' was used as an obvious and convienent 'stand in'. Who knows ? The funny thing about this is that something secretive is apparently likely to  take place on the North American continent for the reason that something secretive is already recognized to happen.


                      Again, how might this connect with consciousness soul development ? It appears that in  our consciousness soul epoch, when enough people have the courage to  look at uncomfortable facts - they inevitably form a solid force against which the elist occult forces must contend.  In other words,  the more people discover  secretive plans like the ones cited here,  the more these plans are forced to 'fall'.
                      Also having to do with this topic is something which Rudolf Steiner mentioned in that there  remain many members Michael's school who have not yet found Anthropsophy.
                      Carol.

                       
                       



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                    • carol
                      I m not interested in pursuing this topic with anyone. It s now Easter weekend, apparently also the 100th anniversary of Rudolf Steiner s initial mention of
                      Message 9 of 13 , Apr 10, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I'm not interested in pursuing this topic with anyone.

                        It's now Easter weekend, apparently also the 100th anniversary of
                        Rudolf Steiner's initial mention of the Etheric Christ and it is within
                        this that I will hold and guard my thoughts and soul forces. carol.






                        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > ******* Sorry, Carol, I have no interest in this topic, or in
                        conspiracy theories in general. I had an interest in Steven's question
                        of what constitutes "spiritual thinking", and other parts of the study
                        of anthroposophy, to which you responded.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If you regard wanting to stay on topic as being condescending, well
                        I'm sorry, but I was answering his question, which has little to do with
                        what you wrote.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > You're welcome to pursue your topic with others here if they are
                        interested. Pursuit of it, I would say, will not contribute anything to
                        ours. Political discussion usually generates much heat but little light.
                        It has nothing to do with pure thinking except in the most arcane
                        heights of political science, and there it's typically quite abstracted.
                        >
                        >
                        > Starman
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: organicethics@...
                        > Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:56:31 +0000
                        > Subject: [steiner] Re: akasha
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Durward, I'm sorry about the letter mixup in my spelling your
                        name – I hope this didn't throw you off too much - it surprises even
                        me when my eyes seem to rule something of my soul and then I miss
                        something so obvious.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > You know Durward, I really don't want to engage in a contest with you
                        – I enjoy when you show me your Anthroposophic qualities without
                        condescention etc - and I sincerely hope that you will allow me to
                        explain something to you - as gentle as I possible can- while also
                        hoping that you will understand that I'm not trying to indoctrinate you.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ... Seeing as your Akasha post quickly followed the Body Politics one
                        – in fact it was a close offshoot of this second mentioned one –
                        I in fact still retained the 'thought images' cited in the BP post when
                        I came upon the description of 'spiritual thinking' cited in the Akasha
                        post.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm glad you explained yourself in your last address to me but most
                        especially I'm glad that you reinforced your 'individuality' by pointing
                        out to me that I had mis– read and thus mis- spelled a letter in
                        your name.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In this latest post you so beautifully presented : « .... Thinking
                        in ESSENCES.
                        >
                        > Instead of Durward or Carol, think the thought "the human being...
                        »
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > However, in a closely tied post (Body Politics), you wrote the
                        following concerning, some human beings : « The links are to wackos
                        hawking conspiracy theory nonsense.. »
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Now Durward, concerning this second instance mentioned above, would it
                        be possible for you to consider that a genuine Anthroposophist can
                        listen out for and then 'hear' what in essense those particular human
                        beings, those individuals, those living souls were wishing to convey,
                        over and above what you, as an individual, as an Anthroposophist, know
                        and identify as 'lower astral' ?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I've picked up an impression of you that you are not in the habit of
                        associating immediate earthly events with Spiritual Science - I sort of
                        understand that consciousness soul viewing of immediate earth activities
                        – as they relate to world history – is not terribly evident nor
                        desirable for many Anthroposophists. Even I avoided viewing world events
                        through an 'Anthropsophical lens' for a great many years..
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ... I did in fact post a link which described an apparently
                        'objective' eyewitness account of secretive instructions being given to
                        American police officers and this is apparently happening pretty much in
                        'real time' - (I have a sister and brother in law who are police
                        officers, so I'm perhaps a little astute about things like this ).
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My point in bringing the 'link' up was not to invite Anthroposophists
                        to 'dive down' with their own soul forces and attune these with the
                        lower astral soul activity which obviously is the comfortable range used
                        by the individuals in the video. No - it was to OBJECTIVELY listen to
                        the inside information which apparently a friend and colleague of these
                        2 individuals had recently conveyed to them.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In Anthroposohy we do know that elitist occult movements have a hand
                        in the power structure of our countries and we also know that given the
                        opportunity, they do conspire against humanity's 'right' to FREE
                        SPIRITUAL evolution. It was having immediately to do with this fact -
                        itself recognized by spiritual science - that I posted the info as an
                        act of sharing . By doing so, I wasn't actually stating that such a
                        thing will happen - for example, it is also possible that the police
                        officers were being tricked, that they were being prepared for another
                        more unpleasant 'unannounced' event and that the bank 'holiday' was used
                        as an obvious and convienent 'stand in'. Who knows ? The funny thing
                        about this is that something secretive is apparently likely to take
                        place on the North American continent for the reason that something
                        secretive is already recognized to happen.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Again, how might this connect with consciousness soul development ? It
                        appears that in our consciousness soul epoch, when enough people have
                        the courage to look at uncomfortable facts - they inevitably form a
                        solid force against which the elist occult forces must contend. In other
                        words, the more people discover secretive plans like the ones cited
                        here, the more these plans are forced to 'fall'.
                        >
                        > Also having to do with this topic is something which Rudolf Steiner
                        mentioned in that there remain many members Michael's school who have
                        not yet found Anthropsophy.
                        >
                        > Carol.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
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