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Edgar Cayce

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  • carynlouise24
    Hi all. Starman wrote: But then, several other online groups suffer from TOO MUCH communication I do agree - a balance is always good in communications. Any
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 4, 2008
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      Hi all.

      Starman wrote:
      'But then, several other online groups suffer from TOO
      MUCH "communication"

      I do agree - a balance is always good in communications.


      Any thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would have to say on
      Edgar Cayce?
    • Durward Starman
      ******* I think he would have had a balanced view. ;- He had such a view of so many psychics he knew of, lauding their positive work (e.g., Swedenborg,
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 4, 2008
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        ******* I think he would have had a "balanced" view. ;->   He had such a view of so many psychics he knew of, lauding their positive work (e.g., Swedenborg, Blavatsky) while pointing out where they perhaps fell short. He certainly would have had a much more balanced opinion than the generation of anthroposophists which followed Steiner's death, and who still are rather dogmatic around the Goetheanum. See, Steiner had to make use of what he had, which in the beginning was the Theosophical Society. By his time, Blavatsky was dead and there were a lot of phonies running around claiming to communicate with the White Brotherhood (a fraud still going on today, by the way--- including here online). People who had no psychic ability, such as Annie Besant, would swear total confidence in whatever someone who claimed to be able to go into a trance state, such as Leadbeater, would say. Steiner was light years ahead of the dabblers in Theosophy, and one important insight he had was that there are two primary kinds of spirits that work in human Psi ability, the Luciferic and the Ahrimanic. Artists who work themselves up into emotion-charged visionary states, for instance, have a Luciferic being come into them and 'possess' them, while people who go into a hypnotic trance state have an Ahrimanic being temporarily possess them. As a result, neither produce reliable results, unlike the true spiritual science Steiner developed, where neither is the source. Well, because so many Theosophists were inclined to run to some "psychic", Steiner's early lectures were filled with warnings about such, especially about the dangers of going into trance states, so that for years no anthroposophist would find any good in any psychics. They would dogmatically repeat that nothing from that source could be any good. But this is a little extreme reading of Steiner's lectures, in the same way that just reading those could make one think Steiner found no value at all in Eastern religion because the Theosophists of his time were so heavily Eastern-oriented that he felt he had to counter their tendencies, and so he inveighed again and again against Yoga and such as being inappropriate for Western people. But just as he highly valued Eastern spirituality, so he also recognized the wonderful nature of what came through psychics. It's just that most of them don't control it scientifically, so it's not 100% reliable.
         
          And that is also the case with Cayce. He never developed himself to the point of attaining clairvoyance, as Steiner and others have done: he was just born with a freakish ability inherited from other lives, while in his conscious state being unable to direct it. Awake, he was a simple Southern Baptist and relied on God as he imagined Him from Scripture to keep him straight. Fortunately for us all, God and Christ can indeed help us even if we don't know the speed of light and all such abstruse matters, and so Edgar Cayce when he went into his trance state to get medical information on a person and invoked the protection of the Christ while doing so, was able to compel the Ahrimanic spirit speaking through him to tell the truth. When the people giving him his suggestions went afield and asked things from curiousity, without an intent to help heal people, the information was mostly corrupt, which is why none of Cayce's predictions of great earth changes came true. I've tried to look at Cayce as Dr. Steiner would have, as an extraordinary example of a kind of psychic ability that is becoming rarer and rarer (it will disappear over the next few centuries) while still not trustworthy in everything because of the trance state it came through.
         
            Superficially, it's obvious that Cayce contacted the same source as Balvatsky and Steiner: just a few of the things they all 3 spoke of were Atlantis, Lemuria, the etheric body, the astral body, the Akashic Records, reincarnation and karma, Root Races (and our own being the 5th), and the "secret doctrine" of knowledge gained through initiation which underlay all religions. Cayce and Steiner also agreed on things as diverse as that the Lord's Prayer was a method of invoking the 7 chakras---- which also have to do with the 7 planes of the solar system which connect reincarnation with astrology---that the Bible was of 3 parts, an Old Testament that was the Past, a New Testament that was the Present and the Book of Revelations which was the Future; and both Cayce's Readings and Steiner's anthroposophy find the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of the Christ was the central event of all history and the key to spiritual reality. There are lots of differences, but that's an awful lot of similarities.
         
          Starman

        www.DrStarman.com




        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        From: carynlouise24@...
        Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:21:54 +0000
        Subject: [steiner] Edgar Cayce


        Hi all.

        Starman wrote:
        'But then, several other online groups suffer from TOO
        MUCH "communication"

        I do agree - a balance is always good in communications.

        Any thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would have to say on
        Edgar Cayce?




        Making the world a better place one message at a time. Check out the i'm Talkathon.
      • carynlouise24
        It is interesting to note Mars is a reincarnation of Old Moon. From `The Book of Revelation lecture 15 `The oldest priests in Babylon used the powers of
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 7, 2008
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          It is interesting to note Mars is a reincarnation of Old Moon.

          From `The Book of Revelation' lecture 15

          `The oldest priests in Babylon used the powers of dream-clairvoyance
          in a way that we would call mediumistic clairvoyance today. The
          wonderful teachings of old Babylon came into being through the use of
          this mediumistic path.

          Today we can see that even mediums who seem suitable to mediate
          spiritual teachings—which is often done, only it ought to be under
          the guidance of initiates with the necessary insight—even such
          seemingly suitable mediums are susceptible to influences that are
          highly questionable morally.

          Because there is often a disproportion in mediums between what they
          reveal and what they are, they can often in the end not distinguish
          between truth and untruth; and this can intensify to an incapacity to
          separate what is moral from what is immoral.

          You must understand what happens with a medium. A person becomes a
          medium—and this was the same with the Babylonian priests—when an
          external power draws the `I' and astral body out of the physical and
          ether body. The moment the medium's `I' and astral body have been
          with¬drawn from the physical and etheric body, another power enters
          into this `I' and astral body.

          Depending on whether the initiator doing this has good or evil
          intent, whether he belongs to the left-hand or the right-hand path,
          this power will be either good or evil.

          In the time of ancient Babylon, excellent knowledge and revelations
          came about by this means. Later on, and today, there began to be a
          dis¬advantage: What happens when the medium re-enters the physical
          body?

          You see, the logic we have in the physical world by which we
          distinguish between untruth and truth is no use in the spiritual
          world. It is a complete mistake to believe that one can use in the
          spiritual world the concepts of untruth and truth that are current
          here in the physical world.

          There is nothing in the spiritual world that can be distinguished in
          this manner. There are beings who are good and others who are evil.
          You have to recognize them for what they are, for they do not tell
          you. But even the evil ones are true in their own way. This is
          difficult to understand, of course, just as every¬thing we encounter
          on entering the spiritual world is difficult to understand. Here in
          the physical world we can state that a straight line is the shortest
          distance between two points. In the spiritual world this could be the
          longest distance, with any other one being shorter.

          None of the logic we most certainly need here in the physical world
          is any use in the spiritual world. So a true initiate needs to have a
          special disposition of soul in order to see into the spiritual world.

          He must be fully responsible in the way he immediately works with
          physical concepts as soon as he returns to the physical world. A
          medium, however, is not capable of doing this because he or she does
          not enter the spiritual world consciously.

          When the medium returns, `I' and astral body fill the physical and
          etheric body with a way of thinking that is appropriate for the
          spiritual world but which corrupts all moral feelings and sensations
          that are valid in the physical world. That is why a medium is
          corrupted with regard to truth and untruth, and this then works on in
          everything else.

          We can say that in fact Babylon went through this process and that
          thus even the highest, most significant revelation from the spiritual
          world became terribly corrupted. What initially applies to the
          principle of spiritual revelation can also extend to include ordinary
          human life, so that strong corruption sets in.

          Having entered spiritual life in this way, a human being then becomes
          more immoral than he was previously as an ordinary person. That is
          why Babylon was taken to be the representative of moral corruption,
          and the expressions used in the Book of Revelation are simply the
          usual expressions by which corruption was described at that time'.






          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > ******* I think he would have had a "balanced" view. ;-> He had
          such a view of so many psychics he knew of, lauding their positive
          work (e.g., Swedenborg, Blavatsky) while pointing out where they
          perhaps fell short. He certainly would have had a much more balanced
          opinion than the generation of anthroposophists which followed
          Steiner's death, and who still are rather dogmatic around the
          Goetheanum. See, Steiner had to make use of what he had, which in the
          beginning was the Theosophical Society. By his time, Blavatsky was
          dead and there were a lot of phonies running around claiming to
          communicate with the White Brotherhood (a fraud still going on today,
          by the way--- including here online). People who had no psychic
          ability, such as Annie Besant, would swear total confidence in
          whatever someone who claimed to be able to go into a trance state,
          such as Leadbeater, would say. Steiner was light years ahead of the
          dabblers in Theosophy, and one important insight he had was that
          there are two primary kinds of spirits that work in human Psi
          ability, the Luciferic and the Ahrimanic. Artists who work themselves
          up into emotion-charged visionary states, for instance, have a
          Luciferic being come into them and 'possess' them, while people who
          go into a hypnotic trance state have an Ahrimanic being temporarily
          possess them. As a result, neither produce reliable results, unlike
          the true spiritual science Steiner developed, where neither is the
          source. Well, because so many Theosophists were inclined to run to
          some "psychic", Steiner's early lectures were filled with warnings
          about such, especially about the dangers of going into trance states,
          so that for years no anthroposophist would find any good in any
          psychics. They would dogmatically repeat that nothing from that
          source could be any good. But this is a little extreme reading of
          Steiner's lectures, in the same way that just reading those could
          make one think Steiner found no value at all in Eastern religion
          because the Theosophists of his time were so heavily Eastern-oriented
          that he felt he had to counter their tendencies, and so he inveighed
          again and again against Yoga and such as being inappropriate for
          Western people. But just as he highly valued Eastern spirituality, so
          he also recognized the wonderful nature of what came through
          psychics. It's just that most of them don't control it
          scientifically, so it's not 100% reliable.
          >
          > And that is also the case with Cayce. He never developed himself
          to the point of attaining clairvoyance, as Steiner and others have
          done: he was just born with a freakish ability inherited from other
          lives, while in his conscious state being unable to direct it. Awake,
          he was a simple Southern Baptist and relied on God as he imagined Him
          from Scripture to keep him straight. Fortunately for us all, God and
          Christ can indeed help us even if we don't know the speed of light
          and all such abstruse matters, and so Edgar Cayce when he went into
          his trance state to get medical information on a person and invoked
          the protection of the Christ while doing so, was able to compel the
          Ahrimanic spirit speaking through him to tell the truth. When the
          people giving him his suggestions went afield and asked things from
          curiousity, without an intent to help heal people, the information
          was mostly corrupt, which is why none of Cayce's predictions of great
          earth changes came true. I've tried to look at Cayce as Dr. Steiner
          would have, as an extraordinary example of a kind of psychic ability
          that is becoming rarer and rarer (it will disappear over the next few
          centuries) while still not trustworthy in everything because of the
          trance state it came through.
          >
          > Superficially, it's obvious that Cayce contacted the same
          source as Balvatsky and Steiner: just a few of the things they all 3
          spoke of were Atlantis, Lemuria, the etheric body, the astral body,
          the Akashic Records, reincarnation and karma, Root Races (and our own
          being the 5th), and the "secret doctrine" of knowledge gained through
          initiation which underlay all religions. Cayce and Steiner also
          agreed on things as diverse as that the Lord's Prayer was a method of
          invoking the 7 chakras---- which also have to do with the 7 planes of
          the solar system which connect reincarnation with astrology---that
          the Bible was of 3 parts, an Old Testament that was the Past, a New
          Testament that was the Present and the Book of Revelations which was
          the Future; and both Cayce's Readings and Steiner's anthroposophy
          find the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of the Christ was the
          central event of all history and the key to spiritual reality. There
          are lots of differences, but that's an awful lot of similarities.
          >
          > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
          >
          >
          >
          > To: steiner@...: carynlouise24@...: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:21:54
          +0000Subject: [steiner] Edgar Cayce
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi all. Starman wrote:'But then, several other online groups suffer
          from TOO MUCH "communication"I do agree - a balance is always good in
          communications.Any thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would
          have to say on Edgar Cayce?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Making the world a better place one message at a time.
          > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace
          >
        • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
          Barbara Handclow who isn t an anthro said that Cayce is a member and his father of the masons. She wrote that they were of the dark occult brotherhood...I
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 7, 2008
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            Barbara Handclow who isn't an anthro said that Cayce is a member and his father of the masons. She wrote that they were of the dark occult brotherhood...I personally do not resonate with what he brought to us.
             
            In a message dated 7/4/2008 5:25:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, carynlouise24@... writes:

            Hi all.

            Starman wrote:
            'But then, several other online groups suffer from TOO
            MUCH "communication"

            I do agree - a balance is always good in communications.

            Any thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would have to say on
            Edgar Cayce?





            Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.
          • Durward Starman
            To: steiner@yahoogroups.comFrom: Cheeseandsalsa@aol.comDate: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:32:21 -0400Subject: Re: [steiner] Edgar Cayce Barbara Handclow who isn t an
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 7, 2008
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              To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
              From: Cheeseandsalsa@...
              Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:32:21 -0400
              Subject: Re: [steiner] Edgar Cayce

              Barbara Handclow who isn't an anthro said that Cayce is a member and his father of the masons. She wrote that they were of the dark occult brotherhood. ..I personally do not resonate with what he brought to us.
               

              I do agree - a balance is always good in communications.

              Any thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would have to say on
              Edgar Cayce?
               

               1

               

              .

              *******Well, in this particular case I can say flatly that the lady is mistaken. Neither Cayce nor his father were Masons, I know that from personal study and contact with his family and many people who actually knew him here in Virginia Beach. He was not a member of anything, and in fact didn't know about Theosophy or anything esoteric until he began answering questions about such matters in his "readings." He almost never remembered anything he said in trance so they had to have a stenographer take it all down, and he read what he'd said afterwards along with everybody else.  He was a simple Christian while awake and never joined anything except the local Presbyterian Church here. His father was a difficult man whom Edgar didn't get along with very well, but he also was not a member of any brotherhood or anything and had nothing to do with Edgar Cayce's work most of his life.
               
                 As to what you don't resonate with in the Cayce Readings, well there's a lot that may be criticized in many ways. I don't know what you've read from them.
               
              Starman


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            • carynlouise24
              The Edgar Cayce s I have read are: The Life Story of Jesus The Origin and Destiny of Man Revelation Many Happy Returns My thoughts are: In Friedrich
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
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                The Edgar Cayce's I have read are:

                The Life Story of Jesus
                The Origin and Destiny of Man
                Revelation
                Many Happy Returns

                My thoughts are:

                In Friedrich Rittelmeyer's `RUDOLF STEINER ENTERS MY LIFE' Friedrich
                writes:

                `His (Rudolf Steiner) attitude in the Krishnamurti affair shows that
                he regarded it as the greatest occult sin to claim authority for
                anyone on the ground of previous incarnations. In the age of
                the "Consciousness Soul" everyone must appeal with his teaching
                simply and solely to men's own objective sense of truth, and convince
                them purely on the basis of reason'.

                Edgar Cayce in an unconscious state claimed authority for person's
                previous incarnations and this should be a reason for concern.

                For instance; say someone like Edgar Cayce had to say to me `you were
                Mickey Mouse in your previous incarnation' – if I was naïve enough to
                believe this (because I was seeking the fundamental question of
                life `who am I') I would spend the rest of my life prancing around
                thinking to myself `I am Mickey Mouse' and further begin to act, take
                on the role of, Mickey Mouse - only to find when I pass through the
                portals of death I was actually Donald Duck in a previous incarnation
                and thus wasted a whole life in misconception.

                The age old wisdom comes to mind `Know Thyself' through yourself
                being yourself.

                Another factor; Edgar Cayce has claimed himself to be the great
                ancient leader Ra and the great mathematician Pythagoras in previous
                lifetimes.

                As far as I know not even Rudolf Steiner would claim to ascertain who
                he was in previous lifetimes in such an open manner; and further the
                true understanding of reincarnation of Initiates is not truly
                understood by the uninitiated.

                At this point I would like to say; Stephen Hale is greatly respected
                and (in my view) his investigations into the Karmic relationships
                between people is well thought through, done in a very concise manner
                and most importantly in a conscious manner. These investigations, on
                people who have already passed through the portals, namely Rudolf
                Steiner himself, directly proves the above writing by Friedrich
                Rittelmeyer on Rudolf Steiner's view on previous incarnations are
                done with an objective sense of truth based on knowledge and reason
                and is a gift invaluable to anthroposophy.

                I have spent years pondering Edgar Cayce and it is not without undue
                considerations I put this forward.


                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To: steiner@...: Cheeseandsalsa@...: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:32:21 -
                0400Subject: Re: [steiner] Edgar Cayce
                >
                >
                >
                > Barbara Handclow who isn't an anthro said that Cayce is a member
                and his father of the masons. She wrote that they were of the dark
                occult brotherhood...I personally do not resonate with what he
                brought to us.
                > I do agree - a balance is always good in communications.Any
                thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would have to say on Edgar
                Cayce?
                >
                >
                > 1
                >
                > .
                > *******
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Well, in this particular case I can say flatly that the lady is
                mistaken. Neither Cayce nor his father were Masons, I know that from
                personal study and contact with his family and many people who
                actually knew him here in Virginia Beach. He was not a member of
                anything, and in fact didn't know about Theosophy or anything
                esoteric until he began answering questions about such matters in
                his "readings." He almost never remembered anything he said in trance
                so they had to have a stenographer take it all down, and he read what
                he'd said afterwards along with everybody else. He was a simple
                Christian while awake and never joined anything except the local
                Presbyterian Church here. His father was a difficult man whom Edgar
                didn't get along with very well, but he also was not a member of any
                brotherhood or anything and had nothing to do with Edgar Cayce's work
                most of his life.
                >
                > As to what you don't resonate with in the Cayce Readings, well
                there's a lot that may be criticized in many ways. I don't know what
                you've read from them.
                >
                > Starman
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > It's a talkathon – but it's not just talk.
                > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk
                >
              • Cheeseandsalsa@aol.com
                Thank you for that, it was very interesting. I mentioned what Handclow said about Cayce to an friend today, who has been a long time anthroposophist, and he
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
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                  Thank you for that, it was very interesting. I mentioned what Handclow said about Cayce to an friend today, who has been a long time anthroposophist, and he doesn't believe Cayce was a member of the dark occult. For what its worth. Thank you for that post it was a good one. Chantel




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                • Durward Starman
                  *******Well, I m sorry but I have to tell you that some of your information is woefully inaccurate! You could verify this by doing a search online or reading a
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
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                    *******Well, I'm sorry but I have to tell you that some of your information is woefully inaccurate! You could verify this by doing a search online or reading a few books about the Cayce Readings. I'd recommend reading a biography of the man first, such as "There Is A River" by Tom Sugrue, then look through whatever books of excerpts from his psychic readings interest you, like Edgar Cayce on Atlantis, Edgar Cayce on Jesus and His Church, etc. You'll find the information quite similar to Theosophy and anthroposophy, frequently identical.
                     
                       The objection of Rittlemeyer's was about people claiming to be an authority because of who they supposedly were in another life. This has nothing to do with telling what other peoples' past lives were--- which of course Dr. Steiner also did, so Rittlemeyer's criticiism about "claiming authority" on the basis of previous incarnations couldn't possibly include. He meant saying 'Well, I was so-and-so in a past life and so you should listen to me' (as one poor soul currently does who claims to have been Cayce himself, while producing no evidence of any abilities in this life).  Telling people they should study music because they have an unrealized musical gift due to having been a musician in ancient Greece, as the Cayce Readings might do--- well, that's a completely different thing than what Rittlemeyer was talking about, clearly. Dr. Steiner also would identify learning disabilities in children as coming from past lives and use this knowledge in treatment.
                     
                        Also, the Readings did not identify Cayce as having been Pythagoras. He did say that in a past life he was an Egyptian initiate unknown to history named Ra Ta, whose memory later became mixed in with the mythological Ra. But he didn't claim people should listen to him because he was that priest in the time of the building of the pyramids. In fact, Cayce didn't ask people to listen to him at all, as he was not a teacher like Steiner. He was a freakish case of an ordinary-seeming man who, because of his past lives, could go into a trance state and connect with the same sources as Blavatsky and Steiner. In his trances, he mainly was asked medical questions about people who were sick. Other stuff was secondary to him and he wasn't sure how much to trust it himself.
                     
                    -starman

                    www.DrStarman.com




                    To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                    From: carynlouise24@...
                    Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:51:19 +0000
                    Subject: [steiner] Re: Edgar Cayce


                    The Edgar Cayce's I have read are:

                    The Life Story of Jesus
                    The Origin and Destiny of Man
                    Revelation
                    Many Happy Returns

                    My thoughts are:

                    In Friedrich Rittelmeyer' s `RUDOLF STEINER ENTERS MY LIFE' Friedrich
                    writes:

                    `His (Rudolf Steiner) attitude in the Krishnamurti affair shows that
                    he regarded it as the greatest occult sin to claim authority for
                    anyone on the ground of previous incarnations. In the age of
                    the "Consciousness Soul" everyone must appeal with his teaching
                    simply and solely to men's own objective sense of truth, and convince
                    them purely on the basis of reason'.

                    Edgar Cayce in an unconscious state claimed authority for person's
                    previous incarnations and this should be a reason for concern.

                    For instance; say someone like Edgar Cayce had to say to me `you were
                    Mickey Mouse in your previous incarnation' – if I was naïve enough to
                    believe this (because I was seeking the fundamental question of
                    life `who am I') I would spend the rest of my life prancing around
                    thinking to myself `I am Mickey Mouse' and further begin to act, take
                    on the role of, Mickey Mouse - only to find when I pass through the
                    portals of death I was actually Donald Duck in a previous incarnation
                    and thus wasted a whole life in misconception.

                    The age old wisdom comes to mind `Know Thyself' through yourself
                    being yourself.

                    Another factor; Edgar Cayce has claimed himself to be the great
                    ancient leader Ra and the great mathematician Pythagoras in previous
                    lifetimes.

                    As far as I know not even Rudolf Steiner would claim to ascertain who
                    he was in previous lifetimes in such an open manner; and further the
                    true understanding of reincarnation of Initiates is not truly
                    understood by the uninitiated.

                    At this point I would like to say; Stephen Hale is greatly respected
                    and (in my view) his investigations into the Karmic relationships
                    between people is well thought through, done in a very concise manner
                    and most importantly in a conscious manner. These investigations, on
                    people who have already passed through the portals, namely Rudolf
                    Steiner himself, directly proves the above writing by Friedrich
                    Rittelmeyer on Rudolf Steiner's view on previous incarnations are
                    done with an objective sense of truth based on knowledge and reason
                    and is a gift invaluable to anthroposophy.

                    I have spent years pondering Edgar Cayce and it is not without undue
                    considerations I put this forward.

                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To: steiner@...: Cheeseandsalsa@ ...: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:32:21 -
                    0400Subject: Re: [steiner] Edgar Cayce
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Barbara Handclow who isn't an anthro said that Cayce is a member
                    and his father of the masons. She wrote that they were of the dark
                    occult brotherhood. ..I personally do not resonate with what he
                    brought to us.
                    > I do agree - a balance is always good in communications. Any
                    thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would have to say on Edgar
                    Cayce?
                    >
                    >
                    > 1
                    >
                    > .
                    > *******
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, in this particular case I can say flatly that the lady is
                    mistaken. Neither Cayce nor his father were Masons, I know that from
                    personal study and contact with his family and many people who
                    actually knew him here in Virginia Beach. He was not a member of
                    anything, and in fact didn't know about Theosophy or anything
                    esoteric until he began answering questions about such matters in
                    his "readings." He almost never remembered anything he said in trance
                    so they had to have a stenographer take it all down, and he read what
                    he'd said afterwards along with everybody else. He was a simple
                    Christian while awake and never joined anything except the local
                    Presbyterian Church here. His father was a difficult man whom Edgar
                    didn't get along with very well, but he also was not a member of any
                    brotherhood or anything and had nothing to do with Edgar Cayce's work
                    most of his life.
                    >
                    > As to what you don't resonate with in the Cayce Readings, well
                    there's a lot that may be criticized in many ways. I don't know what
                    you've read from them.
                    >
                    > Starman
                    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                    > It's a talkathon – but it's not just talk.
                    > http://www.imtalkat hon.com/? source=EML_ WLH_Talkathon_ JustTalk
                    >




                    Making the world a better place one message at a time. Check out the i’m Talkathon.
                  • Mathew Morrell
                    ... Steven Hale is a 3rd rate charlatan and moral retrograde. I spit on his name and anyone who mentions it in this forum.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
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                      Caryne Louise said:

                      > At this point I would like to say; Stephen Hale is greatly respected
                      > and (in my view) his investigations into the Karmic relationships
                      > between people is well thought through...

                      Steven Hale is a 3rd rate charlatan and moral retrograde. I spit on
                      his name and anyone who mentions it in this forum.
                    • Durward Starman
                      *******Who is he? I ve never heard of him. -starmanwww.DrStarman.com To: steiner@yahoogroups.comFrom: tma4cbt@juno.comDate: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:37:24
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
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                        *******Who is he? I've never heard of him.
                         
                        -starman

                        www.DrStarman.com




                        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                        From: tma4cbt@...
                        Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:37:24 +0000
                        Subject: [steiner] Re: Edgar Cayce


                        Caryne Louise said:

                        > At this point I would like to say; Stephen Hale is greatly respected
                        > and (in my view) his investigations into the Karmic relationships
                        > between people is well thought through...

                        Steven Hale is a 3rd rate charlatan and moral retrograde. I spit on
                        his name and anyone who mentions it in this forum.




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                      • John Massengale
                        ... I m not interested in spitting or being told what to say here. I will try signing myself off. If that doesn t work, please sign me off. thanks
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment

                          On Jul 10, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Mathew Morrell wrote:

                          I spit on 
                          his name and anyone who mentions it in this forum. 

                          I'm not interested in spitting or being told what to say here.

                          I will try signing myself off. If that doesn't work, please sign me off.

                          thanks
                        • Mathew Morrell
                          ... Steven Hale is that psycho pomp you removed from this forum a couple years ago, who joined this forum, it seems, for no other purpose than to clog it up,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment


                            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > *******Who is he? I've never heard of him.
                            >

                            Steven Hale is that psycho pomp you removed from this forum a couple years ago, who joined this forum, it seems, for no other purpose than to clog it up, undermine, and manipulate people like me with his overbearing, ego-centric personality.

                            According to my sources, Steve Hale recently accused Starman of being in the mold of the Aryan Nation.  That's just one things he's accused Starman and myself of being.  There are many more lies and falsehoods that pour from this person's mouth.  Mr Hale has made a profession of creating devils and unleashing them through anthroposophical discussion forums.

                            Mathew  

                          • Durward Starman
                            *******Thank you, Matthew. I d forgotten all about this rather unpleasant fellow. Just looked up his rantings when he was briefly a member of this list. No
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
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                              *******Thank you, Matthew. I'd forgotten all about this rather unpleasant fellow. Just looked up his rantings when he was briefly a member of this list. No wonder you reacted so.
                               
                                  I see no evidence of any singular insight into peoples' past lives, or anything esoteric or spiritual for that matter, in this person. He appears to be just another egotist who is out to twist anthroposophy into something that supports his own opinions, rather similar to the fellow I mentioned who says he's the reincarnation of Edgar Cayce. They're a dime a dozen online here.
                               
                                 I would not place much faith in anything he had to say about Edgar Cayce, or Rudolf Steiner, for that matter. He might have something worthwhile to say, but I would say one would have to critically examine every statement such a person makes for falsehoods.
                               
                              -starman

                              www.DrStarman.com




                              To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                              From: tma4cbt@...
                              Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:35:05 +0000
                              Subject: [steiner] Re: Edgar Cayce



                              --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > *******Who is he? I've never heard of him.
                              >

                              Steven Hale is that psycho pomp you removed from this forum a couple years ago, who joined this forum, it seems, for no other purpose than to clog it up, undermine, and manipulate people like me with his overbearing, ego-centric personality.

                              According to my sources, Steve Hale recently accused Starman of being in the mold of the Aryan Nation.  That's just one things he's accused Starman and myself of being.  There are many more lies and falsehoods that pour from this person's mouth.  Mr Hale has made a profession of creating devils and unleashing them through anthroposophical discussion forums.

                              Mathew  




                              Making the world a better place one message at a time. Check out the i'm Talkathon.
                            • happypick2000
                              ... I vaguely recall someone of that name although not the particulars. Unfortunately, this world seems to be full of unsavory types, and the best I can say in
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Mathew Morrell" <tma4cbt@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > *******Who is he? I've never heard of him.
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Steven Hale is that psycho pomp you removed from this forum a couple
                                > years ago, who joined this forum, it seems, for no other purpose than to
                                > clog it up, undermine, and manipulate people like me with his
                                > overbearing, ego-centric personality.
                                >
                                > According to my sources, Steve Hale recently accused Starman of being in
                                > the mold of the Aryan Nation. That's just one things he's
                                > accused Starman and myself of being. There are many more lies and
                                > falsehoods that pour from this person's mouth. Mr Hale has made a
                                > profession of creating devils and unleashing them through
                                > anthroposophical discussion forums.
                                >
                                > Mathew
                                >
                                I vaguely recall someone of that name although not the particulars.
                                Unfortunately, this world seems to be full of unsavory types, and the
                                best I can say in such cases is to the effect that they will be held
                                responsible for any and all actions of theirs, and in a well deserved
                                way. I shudder to ponder such fates and can only try to overlook
                                harmful events and people while learning from them in the way Steiner
                                mentions coming across the dead dog with such beautiful teeth, but I
                                fail far too often.

                                Blessings,

                                Sheila
                              • Durward Starman
                                *******Sorry for Matthew s temper. But in any gathering of people an angry outburst will happen now and then. It s not a reason for leaving a group. I wonder,
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 10, 2008
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                                  *******Sorry for Matthew's temper. But in any gathering of people an angry outburst will happen now and then. It's not a reason for leaving a group.
                                   
                                  I wonder, do you belong to an anthroposophical study group? Would you do the same there?

                                  -starman

                                  www.DrStarman.com




                                  To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: john@...
                                  Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:34:15 -0400
                                  Subject: Re: [steiner] Re: Edgar Cayce



                                  On Jul 10, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Mathew Morrell wrote:

                                  I spit on 
                                  his name and anyone who mentions it in this forum. 

                                  I'm not interested in spitting or being told what to say here.

                                  I will try signing myself off. If that doesn't work, please sign me off.

                                  thanks




                                  Making the world a better place one message at a time. Check out the i'm Talkathon.
                                • carynlouise24
                                  Interesting reactions – Well it is interesting Mars is the reincarnation of the Old Moon. Explains the `trance state. One thing in life which I cannot
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 11, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Interesting reactions – Well it is interesting Mars is the
                                    reincarnation of the Old Moon. Explains the `trance' state.

                                    One thing in life which I cannot stand is when people say `blessings'
                                    or `God bless you' – like they have this authority to tell God who to
                                    bless who not to bless!

                                    Well back to Billy … then



                                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > *******Well, I'm sorry but I have to tell you that some of your
                                    information is woefully inaccurate! You could verify this by doing a
                                    search online or reading a few books about the Cayce Readings. I'd
                                    recommend reading a biography of the man first, such as "There Is A
                                    River" by Tom Sugrue, then look through whatever books of excerpts
                                    from his psychic readings interest you, like Edgar Cayce on Atlantis,
                                    Edgar Cayce on Jesus and His Church, etc. You'll find the information
                                    quite similar to Theosophy and anthroposophy, frequently identical.
                                    >
                                    > The objection of Rittlemeyer's was about people claiming to be
                                    an authority because of who they supposedly were in another life.
                                    This has nothing to do with telling what other peoples' past lives
                                    were--- which of course Dr. Steiner also did, so Rittlemeyer's
                                    criticiism about "claiming authority" on the basis of previous
                                    incarnations couldn't possibly include. He meant saying 'Well, I was
                                    so-and-so in a past life and so you should listen to me' (as one poor
                                    soul currently does who claims to have been Cayce himself, while
                                    producing no evidence of any abilities in this life). Telling people
                                    they should study music because they have an unrealized musical gift
                                    due to having been a musician in ancient Greece, as the Cayce
                                    Readings might do--- well, that's a completely different thing than
                                    what Rittlemeyer was talking about, clearly. Dr. Steiner also would
                                    identify learning disabilities in children as coming from past lives
                                    and use this knowledge in treatment.
                                    >
                                    > Also, the Readings did not identify Cayce as having been
                                    Pythagoras. He did say that in a past life he was an Egyptian
                                    initiate unknown to history named Ra Ta, whose memory later became
                                    mixed in with the mythological Ra. But he didn't claim people should
                                    listen to him because he was that priest in the time of the building
                                    of the pyramids. In fact, Cayce didn't ask people to listen to him at
                                    all, as he was not a teacher like Steiner. He was a freakish case of
                                    an ordinary-seeming man who, because of his past lives, could go into
                                    a trance state and connect with the same sources as Blavatsky and
                                    Steiner. In his trances, he mainly was asked medical questions about
                                    people who were sick. Other stuff was secondary to him and he wasn't
                                    sure how much to trust it himself.
                                    >
                                    > -starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: steiner@...: carynlouise24@...: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:51:19
                                    +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Edgar Cayce
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The Edgar Cayce's I have read are:The Life Story of JesusThe Origin
                                    and Destiny of ManRevelationMany Happy Returns My thoughts are:In
                                    Friedrich Rittelmeyer's `RUDOLF STEINER ENTERS MY LIFE' Friedrich
                                    writes:`His (Rudolf Steiner) attitude in the Krishnamurti affair
                                    shows that he regarded it as the greatest occult sin to claim
                                    authority for anyone on the ground of previous incarnations. In the
                                    age of the "Consciousness Soul" everyone must appeal with his
                                    teaching simply and solely to men's own objective sense of truth, and
                                    convince them purely on the basis of reason'.Edgar Cayce in an
                                    unconscious state claimed authority for person's previous
                                    incarnations and this should be a reason for concern. For instance;
                                    say someone like Edgar Cayce had to say to me `you were Mickey Mouse
                                    in your previous incarnation' – if I was naïve enough to believe this
                                    (because I was seeking the fundamental question of life `who am I') I
                                    would spend the rest of my life prancing around thinking to myself `I
                                    am Mickey Mouse' and further begin to act, take on the role of,
                                    Mickey Mouse - only to find when I pass through the portals of death
                                    I was actually Donald Duck in a previous incarnation and thus wasted
                                    a whole life in misconception.The age old wisdom comes to mind `Know
                                    Thyself' through yourself being yourself.Another factor; Edgar Cayce
                                    has claimed himself to be the great ancient leader Ra and the great
                                    mathematician Pythagoras in previous lifetimes.As far as I know not
                                    even Rudolf Steiner would claim to ascertain who he was in previous
                                    lifetimes in such an open manner; and further the true understanding
                                    of reincarnation of Initiates is not truly understood by the
                                    uninitiated.At this point I would like to say; Stephen Hale is
                                    greatly respected and (in my view) his investigations into the Karmic
                                    relationships between people is well thought through, done in a very
                                    concise manner and most importantly in a conscious manner. These
                                    investigations, on people who have already passed through the
                                    portals, namely Rudolf Steiner himself, directly proves the above
                                    writing by Friedrich Rittelmeyer on Rudolf Steiner's view on previous
                                    incarnations are done with an objective sense of truth based on
                                    knowledge and reason and is a gift invaluable to anthroposophy.I have
                                    spent years pondering Edgar Cayce and it is not without undue
                                    considerations I put this forward.--- In steiner@yahoogroups.com,
                                    Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > > > To: steiner@:
                                    Cheeseandsalsa@: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:32:21 -0400Subject: Re: [steiner]
                                    Edgar Cayce> > > > Barbara Handclow who isn't an anthro said that
                                    Cayce is a member and his father of the masons. She wrote that they
                                    were of the dark occult brotherhood...I personally do not resonate
                                    with what he brought to us. > I do agree - a balance is always good
                                    in communications.Any thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would
                                    have to say on Edgar Cayce?> > > 1> > .> *******> > > > > > Well, in
                                    this particular case I can say flatly that the lady is mistaken.
                                    Neither Cayce nor his father were Masons, I know that from personal
                                    study and contact with his family and many people who actually knew
                                    him here in Virginia Beach. He was not a member of anything, and in
                                    fact didn't know about Theosophy or anything esoteric until he began
                                    answering questions about such matters in his "readings." He almost
                                    never remembered anything he said in trance so they had to have a
                                    stenographer take it all down, and he read what he'd said afterwards
                                    along with everybody else. He was a simple Christian while awake and
                                    never joined anything except the local Presbyterian Church here. His
                                    father was a difficult man whom Edgar didn't get along with very
                                    well, but he also was not a member of any brotherhood or anything and
                                    had nothing to do with Edgar Cayce's work most of his life. > > As to
                                    what you don't resonate with in the Cayce Readings, well there's a
                                    lot that may be criticized in many ways. I don't know what you've
                                    read from them. > > Starman>
                                    __________________________________________________________> It's a
                                    talkathon – but it's not just talk.> http://www.imtalkathon.com/?
                                    source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > _________________________________________________________________
                                    > Making the world a better place one message at a time.
                                    > http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace
                                    >
                                  • Durward Starman
                                    ******* Why do you connect this to the planet Mars? I connect the trance state to Saturn, as it s a reversion to the state of consciousness of Ancient Saturn.
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 11, 2008
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                                      ******* Why do you connect this to the planet Mars? I connect the trance state to Saturn, as it's a reversion to the state of consciousness of Ancient Saturn.

                                      -starman

                                      www.DrStarman.com




                                      To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: carynlouise24@...
                                      Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:19:09 +0000
                                      Subject: [steiner] Re: Edgar Cayce


                                      Interesting reactions – Well it is interesting Mars is the
                                      reincarnation of the Old Moon. Explains the `trance' state.

                                      One thing in life which I cannot stand is when people say `blessings'
                                      or `God bless you' – like they have this authority to tell God who to
                                      bless who not to bless!

                                      Well back to Billy … then

                                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > *******Well, I'm sorry but I have to tell you that some of your
                                      information is woefully inaccurate! You could verify this by doing a
                                      search online or reading a few books about the Cayce Readings. I'd
                                      recommend reading a biography of the man first, such as "There Is A
                                      River" by Tom Sugrue, then look through whatever books of excerpts
                                      from his psychic readings interest you, like Edgar Cayce on Atlantis,
                                      Edgar Cayce on Jesus and His Church, etc. You'll find the information
                                      quite similar to Theosophy and anthroposophy, frequently identical.
                                      >
                                      > The objection of Rittlemeyer' s was about people claiming to be
                                      an authority because of who they supposedly were in another life.
                                      This has nothing to do with telling what other peoples' past lives
                                      were--- which of course Dr. Steiner also did, so Rittlemeyer' s
                                      criticiism about "claiming authority" on the basis of previous
                                      incarnations couldn't possibly include. He meant saying 'Well, I was
                                      so-and-so in a past life and so you should listen to me' (as one poor
                                      soul currently does who claims to have been Cayce himself, while
                                      producing no evidence of any abilities in this life). Telling people
                                      they should study music because they have an unrealized musical gift
                                      due to having been a musician in ancient Greece, as the Cayce
                                      Readings might do--- well, that's a completely different thing than
                                      what Rittlemeyer was talking about, clearly. Dr. Steiner also would
                                      identify learning disabilities in children as coming from past lives
                                      and use this knowledge in treatment.
                                      >
                                      > Also, the Readings did not identify Cayce as having been
                                      Pythagoras. He did say that in a past life he was an Egyptian
                                      initiate unknown to history named Ra Ta, whose memory later became
                                      mixed in with the mythological Ra. But he didn't claim people should
                                      listen to him because he was that priest in the time of the building
                                      of the pyramids. In fact, Cayce didn't ask people to listen to him at
                                      all, as he was not a teacher like Steiner. He was a freakish case of
                                      an ordinary-seeming man who, because of his past lives, could go into
                                      a trance state and connect with the same sources as Blavatsky and
                                      Steiner. In his trances, he mainly was asked medical questions about
                                      people who were sick. Other stuff was secondary to him and he wasn't
                                      sure how much to trust it himself.
                                      >
                                      > -starmanwww. DrStarman. com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To: steiner@...: carynlouise24@ ...: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:51:19
                                      +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Edgar Cayce
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The Edgar Cayce's I have read are:The Life Story of JesusThe Origin
                                      and Destiny of ManRevelationMany Happy Returns My thoughts are:In
                                      Friedrich Rittelmeyer' s `RUDOLF STEINER ENTERS MY LIFE' Friedrich
                                      writes:`His (Rudolf Steiner) attitude in the Krishnamurti affair
                                      shows that he regarded it as the greatest occult sin to claim
                                      authority for anyone on the ground of previous incarnations. In the
                                      age of the "Consciousness Soul" everyone must appeal with his
                                      teaching simply and solely to men's own objective sense of truth, and
                                      convince them purely on the basis of reason'.Edgar Cayce in an
                                      unconscious state claimed authority for person's previous
                                      incarnations and this should be a reason for concern. For instance;
                                      say someone like Edgar Cayce had to say to me `you were Mickey Mouse
                                      in your previous incarnation' – if I was naïve enough to believe this
                                      (because I was seeking the fundamental question of life `who am I') I
                                      would spend the rest of my life prancing around thinking to myself `I
                                      am Mickey Mouse' and further begin to act, take on the role of,
                                      Mickey Mouse - only to find when I pass through the portals of death
                                      I was actually Donald Duck in a previous incarnation and thus wasted
                                      a whole life in misconception. The age old wisdom comes to mind `Know
                                      Thyself' through yourself being yourself.Another factor; Edgar Cayce
                                      has claimed himself to be the great ancient leader Ra and the great
                                      mathematician Pythagoras in previous lifetimes.As far as I know not
                                      even Rudolf Steiner would claim to ascertain who he was in previous
                                      lifetimes in such an open manner; and further the true understanding
                                      of reincarnation of Initiates is not truly understood by the
                                      uninitiated. At this point I would like to say; Stephen Hale is
                                      greatly respected and (in my view) his investigations into the Karmic
                                      relationships between people is well thought through, done in a very
                                      concise manner and most importantly in a conscious manner. These
                                      investigations, on people who have already passed through the
                                      portals, namely Rudolf Steiner himself, directly proves the above
                                      writing by Friedrich Rittelmeyer on Rudolf Steiner's view on previous
                                      incarnations are done with an objective sense of truth based on
                                      knowledge and reason and is a gift invaluable to anthroposophy. I have
                                      spent years pondering Edgar Cayce and it is not without undue
                                      considerations I put this forward.--- In steiner@yahoogroups .com,
                                      Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > > > To: steiner@:
                                      Cheeseandsalsa@ : Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:32:21 -0400Subject: Re: [steiner]
                                      Edgar Cayce> > > > Barbara Handclow who isn't an anthro said that
                                      Cayce is a member and his father of the masons. She wrote that they
                                      were of the dark occult brotherhood. ..I personally do not resonate
                                      with what he brought to us. > I do agree - a balance is always good
                                      in communications. Any thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would
                                      have to say on Edgar Cayce?> > > 1> > .> *******> > > > > > Well, in
                                      this particular case I can say flatly that the lady is mistaken.
                                      Neither Cayce nor his father were Masons, I know that from personal
                                      study and contact with his family and many people who actually knew
                                      him here in Virginia Beach. He was not a member of anything, and in
                                      fact didn't know about Theosophy or anything esoteric until he began
                                      answering questions about such matters in his "readings." He almost
                                      never remembered anything he said in trance so they had to have a
                                      stenographer take it all down, and he read what he'd said afterwards
                                      along with everybody else. He was a simple Christian while awake and
                                      never joined anything except the local Presbyterian Church here. His
                                      father was a difficult man whom Edgar didn't get along with very
                                      well, but he also was not a member of any brotherhood or anything and
                                      had nothing to do with Edgar Cayce's work most of his life. > > As to
                                      what you don't resonate with in the Cayce Readings, well there's a
                                      lot that may be criticized in many ways. I don't know what you've
                                      read from them. > > Starman>
                                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> It's a
                                      talkathon – but it's not just talk.> http://www.imtalkat hon.com/?
                                      source=EML_WLH_ Talkathon_ JustTalk>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                      > Making the world a better place one message at a time.
                                      > http://www.imtalkat hon.com/? source=EML_ WLH_Talkathon_ BetterPlace
                                      >




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                                    • carynlouise24
                                      I trace it to the Old Moon stage of clairvoyance for specific corresponding reasons. Arhimanic and his sidekick the untamed Luciferic. We understand during
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jul 14, 2008
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                                        I trace it to the Old Moon stage of clairvoyance for specific
                                        corresponding reasons. Arhimanic and his sidekick the untamed
                                        Luciferic. We understand during the Old Moon period the astral body
                                        was in development and the mineral was not yet included in the human
                                        body, this was a predominately Luciferic stage.

                                        In Rudolf Steiner's `Polarities in the Evolution of Mankind' eleven
                                        lectures given to members of the Anthroposophical Society in
                                        Stuttgart 5 March to 22 November 1920 pg 108 – we read

                                        `The Jesuit literature on the material world is much more brilliantly
                                        written than the works of many others writers on the subject today.
                                        Father Erich Wasmann's work on ants, for example, is really good, you
                                        will gain more from reading it than from the pedantic, uninspired
                                        writings of other scientists. Many more examples could be given.

                                        The (work of the) Jesuits would be excellent if they confined
                                        themselves to the material world; it is a deliberate aim (of the
                                        Jesuits) to use their description of the material world to encourage
                                        people to associate knowledge with the materialistic aspect of the
                                        physical world only.

                                        The intention is to pretend to human minds that the methods used to
                                        gain knowledge cannot be used to investigate the supersensible
                                        world. In ancient times Lucifer-dominated individuals suggested that
                                        human beings would gain mastery of the world if they made use of
                                        ancient divine knowledge, yet evolution had already gone beyond this
                                        point.

                                        Now we have late followers of those people from post-primeval times
                                        pretending to the world that it is not possible to extend knowledge
                                        to the supersensible sphere and that knowledge cannot go beyond the
                                        sense-perceptible world. In those early times the intention had been
                                        to drug people with supersensible knowledge.

                                        Now human beings of the same ilk want to use all possible means to
                                        push humanity into the physical world; they want human beings stuck
                                        in that world and grasp the supersensible world only with the
                                        nebulous impulse of faith.

                                        In post-primeval times the aim had been to inundate humankind with an
                                        excess of supersensible knowledge. Today those late followers want
                                        human beings to have less than the right amount of knowledge in this
                                        sphere. Past intent was to provide supersensible knowledge that was
                                        no longer appropriate. Present intent is to let people have only
                                        sense-bound knowledge, making the supersensible world an area where
                                        every individual may hold whatever views he or she likes.

                                        What would be the outcome if the group of people to whom we are
                                        referring were to achieve some kind of victory? These are the people
                                        who deliberately make a sharp distinction between knowledge and
                                        belief. There are of course large numbers of easily led people who
                                        come across the diatribe on the `clear distinction between faith and
                                        knowledge' and repeat it; they merely repeat it.

                                        What is all this about? The aim is to do the opposite of what those
                                        individual in post-primeval times did in their way. In the old days
                                        the intention was to prevent humanity from descending completely and
                                        taking up its mission on earth. Today the intention is to keep
                                        people tied to that mission on earth to prevent their further
                                        development, for which the earth would provide the basis. The very
                                        people who are now supporting materialism call
                                        themselves `spiritualists', or priests of some faith or other,
                                        representatives of the supersensible world.

                                        In those ancient times the people offering a life in the spirit that
                                        was no longer justifiable called themselves materialists. They did
                                        so from the point of view which I have characterized. Today a large
                                        number of people who really wish to keep humanity bound to the
                                        material world call themselves representatives of the spiritual
                                        world.'

                                        Page 50

                                        Think of all the efforts we go to in spiritual science working
                                        towards anthroposophy to form sufficiently clear ideas; for
                                        instances, as to how far the things we become aware of in human
                                        minds, in the form of dreams, may or may not be reflecting the
                                        truth. As human beings we cannot immediately distinguish truth from
                                        falsehood when something appears in the course of a dream. The same
                                        state of mind arises for a congregation when they are told lies by
                                        people who know those lies will be believed. The soul is brought to
                                        a state, a mood, by those lies where it becomes the willing tool of
                                        those desiring power. It is easiest to get people into your power by
                                        planting illusions in their unsuspecting minds'.




                                        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ******* Why do you connect this to the planet Mars? I connect the
                                        trance state to Saturn, as it's a reversion to the state of
                                        consciousness of Ancient Saturn.
                                        > -starman
                                        > www.DrStarman.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > To: steiner@...: carynlouise24@...: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:19:09
                                        +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Edgar Cayce
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Interesting reactions – Well it is interesting Mars is the
                                        reincarnation of the Old Moon. Explains the `trance' state.One thing
                                        in life which I cannot stand is when people say `blessings' or `God
                                        bless you' – like they have this authority to tell God who to bless
                                        who not to bless!Well back to Billy … then --- In
                                        steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> >
                                        *******Well, I'm sorry but I have to tell you that some of your
                                        information is woefully inaccurate! You could verify this by doing a
                                        search online or reading a few books about the Cayce Readings. I'd
                                        recommend reading a biography of the man first, such as "There Is A
                                        River" by Tom Sugrue, then look through whatever books of excerpts
                                        from his psychic readings interest you, like Edgar Cayce on Atlantis,
                                        Edgar Cayce on Jesus and His Church, etc. You'll find the information
                                        quite similar to Theosophy and anthroposophy, frequently identical.>
                                        > The objection of Rittlemeyer's was about people claiming to be an
                                        authority because of who they supposedly were in another life. This
                                        has nothing to do with telling what other peoples' past lives were---
                                        which of course Dr. Steiner also did, so Rittlemeyer's criticiism
                                        about "claiming authority" on the basis of previous incarnations
                                        couldn't possibly include. He meant saying 'Well, I was so-and-so in
                                        a past life and so you should listen to me' (as one poor soul
                                        currently does who claims to have been Cayce himself, while producing
                                        no evidence of any abilities in this life). Telling people they
                                        should study music because they have an unrealized musical gift due
                                        to having been a musician in ancient Greece, as the Cayce Readings
                                        might do--- well, that's a completely different thing than what
                                        Rittlemeyer was talking about, clearly. Dr. Steiner also would
                                        identify learning disabilities in children as coming from past lives
                                        and use this knowledge in treatment.> > Also, the Readings did not
                                        identify Cayce as having been Pythagoras. He did say that in a past
                                        life he was an Egyptian initiate unknown to history named Ra Ta,
                                        whose memory later became mixed in with the mythological Ra. But he
                                        didn't claim people should listen to him because he was that priest
                                        in the time of the building of the pyramids. In fact, Cayce didn't
                                        ask people to listen to him at all, as he was not a teacher like
                                        Steiner. He was a freakish case of an ordinary-seeming man who,
                                        because of his past lives, could go into a trance state and connect
                                        with the same sources as Blavatsky and Steiner. In his trances, he
                                        mainly was asked medical questions about people who were sick. Other
                                        stuff was secondary to him and he wasn't sure how much to trust it
                                        himself.> > -starmanwww.DrStarman.com> > > > To: steiner@:
                                        carynlouise24@: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:51:19 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re:
                                        Edgar Cayce> > > > > The Edgar Cayce's I have read are:The Life Story
                                        of JesusThe Origin and Destiny of ManRevelationMany Happy Returns My
                                        thoughts are:In Friedrich Rittelmeyer's `RUDOLF STEINER ENTERS MY
                                        LIFE' Friedrich writes:`His (Rudolf Steiner) attitude in the
                                        Krishnamurti affair shows that he regarded it as the greatest occult
                                        sin to claim authority for anyone on the ground of previous
                                        incarnations. In the age of the "Consciousness Soul" everyone must
                                        appeal with his teaching simply and solely to men's own objective
                                        sense of truth, and convince them purely on the basis of
                                        reason'.Edgar Cayce in an unconscious state claimed authority for
                                        person's previous incarnations and this should be a reason for
                                        concern. For instance; say someone like Edgar Cayce had to say to me
                                        `you were Mickey Mouse in your previous incarnation' – if I was naïve
                                        enough to believe this (because I was seeking the fundamental
                                        question of life `who am I') I would spend the rest of my life
                                        prancing around thinking to myself `I am Mickey Mouse' and further
                                        begin to act, take on the role of, Mickey Mouse - only to find when I
                                        pass through the portals of death I was actually Donald Duck in a
                                        previous incarnation and thus wasted a whole life in
                                        misconception.The age old wisdom comes to mind `Know Thyself' through
                                        yourself being yourself.Another factor; Edgar Cayce has claimed
                                        himself to be the great ancient leader Ra and the great mathematician
                                        Pythagoras in previous lifetimes.As far as I know not even Rudolf
                                        Steiner would claim to ascertain who he was in previous lifetimes in
                                        such an open manner; and further the true understanding of
                                        reincarnation of Initiates is not truly understood by the
                                        uninitiated.At this point I would like to say; Stephen Hale is
                                        greatly respected and (in my view) his investigations into the Karmic
                                        relationships between people is well thought through, done in a very
                                        concise manner and most importantly in a conscious manner. These
                                        investigations, on people who have already passed through the
                                        portals, namely Rudolf Steiner himself, directly proves the above
                                        writing by Friedrich Rittelmeyer on Rudolf Steiner's view on previous
                                        incarnations are done with an objective sense of truth based on
                                        knowledge and reason and is a gift invaluable to anthroposophy.I have
                                        spent years pondering Edgar Cayce and it is not without undue
                                        considerations I put this forward.--- In steiner@yahoogroups.com,
                                        Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > > > To: steiner@:
                                        Cheeseandsalsa@: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:32:21 -0400Subject: Re: [steiner]
                                        Edgar Cayce> > > > Barbara Handclow who isn't an anthro said that
                                        Cayce is a member and his father of the masons. She wrote that they
                                        were of the dark occult brotherhood...I personally do not resonate
                                        with what he brought to us. > I do agree - a balance is always good
                                        in communications.Any thoughts ... I wonder what Rudolf Steiner would
                                        have to say on Edgar Cayce?> > > 1> > .> *******> > > > > > Well, in
                                        this particular case I can say flatly that the lady is mistaken.
                                        Neither Cayce nor his father were Masons, I know that from personal
                                        study and contact with his family and many people who actually knew
                                        him here in Virginia Beach. He was not a member of anything, and in
                                        fact didn't know about Theosophy or anything esoteric until he began
                                        answering questions about such matters in his "readings." He almost
                                        never remembered anything he said in trance so they had to have a
                                        stenographer take it all down, and he read what he'd said afterwards
                                        along with everybody else. He was a simple Christian while awake and
                                        never joined anything except the local Presbyterian Church here. His
                                        father was a difficult man whom Edgar didn't get along with very
                                        well, but he also was not a member of any brotherhood or anything and
                                        had nothing to do with Edgar Cayce's work most of his life. > > As to
                                        what you don't resonate with in the Cayce Readings, well there's a
                                        lot that may be criticized in many ways. I don't know what you've
                                        read from them. > > Starman>
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