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  • John Byrde
    This address has already sent at least 2 attachments, which look like viruses. If it s the case, can these messages (this address) be blocked from the list?
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 13, 2001
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      This address has already sent at least 2 attachments, which look like
      viruses. If it's the case, can these messages (this address) be blocked from
      the list?
      John
      ----- Message d'origine -----
      De : <pacbay@...>
      Cc : <recipient list not shown: ;>
      Envoyé : Sunday, 14 January, 2001 01:59
      Objet : [steiner] (unknown)
    • DRStarman2001@aol.com
      ... *******I assume you mean the Catholic Church, although the Church makes it sound as if there is no Lutheran Church, Methodist, etc. Clearly, you re a
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 1, 2002
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        macannadh@... writes:
        > Hello Friends: I continue to enjoy the excellent presentations by Starman with regard to the questions that come his way. But I must admit to some dissatisfaction with his answers with regard to my questions about the ongoing antagonism between Catholicism and Anthroposophy.
        > I asked about a good that out of place becomes evil. Starman wrote: "If you dwell on the meaning of Martin Luther and the entire Protestant Reformation, one central point is surely that one can still experience the Divine while being a sexual being." Question: When did the Church teach otherwise?

        *******I assume you mean the Catholic Church, although "the Church" makes it sound as if there is no Lutheran Church, Methodist, etc. Clearly, you're a Catholic. However, in this discussion group there are probably many other points of view than 'catholic' and 'anti'. Some here may know nothing of this particular religion, which Steiner said was a 'spectre' of ancient Rome surviving through the centuries; some might agree with Luther, who identified it as the second Beast in Revelations that forced all to worship the mere image of one who had received a mortal blow but overcame death, for all I know.

        For those here who may be unacquainted with it, it holds that only men--- and only those men observing celibacy--- are holy enough to perform its central ritual where it believes a piece of bread is changed into Christ's body. For any not being defensive about it, the meaning is clear: that no one with a sex life is holy enough to be a minister of God, doing its various 'sacraments'. Priests are not allowed to marry or have sexual relations with any women. The central hypocrisy today, of course, is that, out of fear of having a shortage of priests in this era of their declining numbers, other sorts of unnatural sex that don't result in embarassments like fatherhood (which used to happen among wealthy priests and even Popes in Renaissance times) have been winked at for decades.


        > "Ministers and rabbis are not all going to hell...". Question: When did the Church teach that?

        *******If only celibate priests are judged worthy of performing all 'sacraments', then clearly any who are not celibate would be misleading souls, doing rituals which cannot have power to 'save' because done by men not worthy to do them. Logic would seem to demand that either (A) the other religions are false where the Catholic approach is true, or (B) the religions might be real but the married men carrying them out are doing them wrongly, or (C) celibacy must not be a real requirement for leading people to the Divine.

        Let me know if you see a 4th option I've missed.

        So long as the Catholic Church clings to its recent celibacy policy (imposed in the Dark Ages and not part of original Christianity, I note in passing), it would seem that option C is not allowed to be thought, and therefore only A and B are left to Catholics. Either the entire religions or the married rabbis and minsters are wrong and misleading their flocks, or the Catholic Church's policy, restated again and again by an allegedly "infallible" Pope, is wrong. One can't have it both ways. I side with the Protestants that it is the "Romish error."



        > Re the Vatican, "...they have turned a blind eye to the
        > homosexuality in seminaries and pederasty among practicing priests in the name of some 'higher good'".
        Question: Are you saying that homosexuality, pederasty and 'turning a blind eye' are all evils?

        ******For anyone not being defensive, it's pretty clear what I'm saying: that perversions have been tolerated, no matter what the effect on men in seminaries or boys in congregations, in the name of some alleged greater good of keeping the thing going. See above about the shortage of priests.


        > You add, "Thus does good become evil". I afraid, I'm not following you. When was any of that good?

        ******When anyone holds a good to be so good that evil may be tolerated in acheiving it, "good" becomes the cause of evil. I agree with pseudo-Confucius, "Man who think end justifies means usually come to mean end." ;-)


        > You state, "the vast majority of modern people need to have a spiritual path within normal life, including an outlet for their natural sexual drives." Starman, that's standard Church teaching. You add, "By refusing to recognize this, the Roman religion has worked untold evil." Can you give specific instances when the Church refused to recognise this?

        *******Only those are 'holy' enough to perform the 'sacraments' of this church who repress their normal drives or who give them unnatural outlets winked at, as above. This means that the highest spiritual path is alleged to be walked only by men observing celibacy while all others are inferior. I might add that I personally witnessed the nuns making girls feel 'dirty' for wanting to lead normal lives instead of become nuns, along with all the guilt trips laid on the boys who didn't want to become priests.

        A Bishop who married was recently forced to divorce his wife. The message is clear: that no women at all, and no men living a normal life with marriage can be "Christ's servants". What is especially perverse is that this is all while priests who molest boys are allowed to remain in these alleged positions of 'holiness'.

        But, just like the foibles of fundamentalist born-agains or ultra-Orthodox Jews or murderous 'holy' Muslims, this is all just common sense. I don't find it has anything to do with spiritual science. I'd really rather not get into talking about the Catholic Church with people who still have faith in it. They're not going to change their minds regardless. To me it's like having a debate with flat-earthers. I regard it as an odd relic of another age. The only 'antagonism' between it and spiritual science is, I think, what also exists between it and common sense, free thinking, science, and Protestant Christianity.

        I'll just note that, in this week's Soul-Calendar, Steiner recommended meditating on the thinker Hus on this Saturday, July 6th, the day on which he was burned to death by the Church (on his 56th birthday) for challenging its dogma and hence authority. On that same day almost a century later, the University at Wittenburg was founded, one of the great fountainheads of free investigation unencumbered by dogma and mental shackles. Only out of such can a spiritual science grow.

        Dr. Starman
      • DRStarman2001@aol.com
        *******Welcome to the list, Thomas. Dr. Steiner spoke numerous times about the ancient Indian era and the Vedas. Perhaps the lecture cycle you refer to is his
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 9, 2002
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          *******Welcome to the list, Thomas.  Dr. Steiner spoke numerous times about the ancient Indian era and the Vedas. Perhaps the lecture cycle you refer to is his one on "The Bhagavad-Gita And The Epistles of St. Paul", so you may have already read that. There also was another major one entitled "The East in the Light of the West." In addition, he has comments on the Vedic religion throughout all his lectures.  Perhaps someone here could answer your particular question. As I recall, the ancient teaching was that the highest part of Man, Atman, is where we are one with the divine, or Brahma.

          Dr. Starman

          hyde_thomas@... writes:
          Hello All,
          My Name is Thomas, I am twenty one, I live in NY. I read steiner, presently
          because his volumous writings are a wealth to me for my own education of the
          history of spirituality. He is most valueble to me for his purely scientific
          approach in his analysis and comparison of the great spiritual orders of the
          world. Weather his theories are correct or not arent even that important to
          me because his body of works are so imformative scientificly and
          historically speaking. He has been most helpful to me for understanding, for
          example, the historic developement of the three streams os indian
          philosophy; vedic, sankya, and yoga of Pantanjali. His article of St John
          and the Bhagavag Gita, I found very informative.
          Can anyone inform me of more Steiner writings (lectures or articles) wich he
          speaks directly about indian philosohpy? More specifically, the vedic
          teachings pertaining to the relationship between Brahman and Atman.
          Thank you so much,
          Thomas



          http://www.DrStarman.net
        • LilOleMiss
          Thomas, it s good to hear from you, and I apologize for not getting a reply off sooner. I was thinking today about your question, knowing Dr. Starman is the
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 9, 2002
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            Thomas, it's good to hear from you, and I apologize for not getting a reply off sooner. I was thinking today about your question, knowing Dr. Starman is the best source of information, and I wholeheartedly agree with his choices, too! Both these specific works of Steiner's are fascinating and I think you'll gain very much from them. It seems to me I read "East in the Light of the West" first because it had been given to me by a very elderly lady who had actually attended all the lectures. I was so thrilled! She pencilled in at the very end "while the entire audience stood and applauded!" - that really gave me a sense of sharing, in some way, or as though the feelings gained from this series of lectures were shared by others. I'm very glad for you, and it's good to have you on board.

            Sheila

            DRStarman2001@... wrote:

             *******Welcome to the list, Thomas.  Dr. Steiner spoke numerous times about the ancient Indian era and the Vedas. Perhaps the lecture cycle you refer to is his one on "The Bhagavad-Gita And The Epistles of St. Paul", so you may have already read that. There also was another major one entitled "The East in the Light of the West." In addition, he has comments on the Vedic religion throughout all his lectures.  Perhaps someone here could answer your particular question. As I recall, the ancient teaching was that the highest part of Man, Atman, is where we are one with the divine, or Brahma.

            Dr. Starman

            hyde_thomas@... writes:

            Hello All,
            My Name is Thomas, I am twenty one, I live in NY. I read steiner, presently
            because his volumous writings are a wealth to me for my own education of the
            history of spirituality. He is most valueble to me for his purely scientific
            approach in his analysis and comparison of the great spiritual orders of the
            world. Weather his theories are correct or not arent even that important to
            me because his body of works are so imformative scientificly and
            historically speaking. He has been most helpful to me for understanding, for
            example, the historic developement of the three streams os indian
            philosophy; vedic, sankya, and yoga of Pantanjali. His article of St John
            and the Bhagavag Gita, I found very informative.
            Can anyone inform me of more Steiner writings (lectures or articles) wich he
            speaks directly about indian philosohpy? More specifically, the vedic
            teachings pertaining to the relationship between Brahman and Atman.
            Thank you so much,
            Thomas

             

            http://www.DrStarman.net
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          • lilolemissy
            Dear Renee, What a joy to hear from you and to hear about your keen interest in Steiner! New Orleans is where I grew up, and my sister is now in Metairie, but
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 25, 2003
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              Dear Renee,
               
              What a joy to hear from you and to hear about your keen interest in Steiner! New Orleans is where I grew up, and my sister is now in Metairie, but many years ago N.O. was far more active in Anthroposophy than perhaps now - at least one of the "wise oldtimers" lived there for awhile, Olin Wannamaker, and you may find his name here or there as having translated various Steiner lectures/books.
               
              It seems some of us have had some difficulty sending postings to our list, since the words below the "ad" following our signatures gives the wrong address, and for awhile yahoo.com itself was causing difficulties. steiner@yahoogroups.com is the correct address and the one you came through on! HOORAY!
               
              Cheers!
               
              Sheila

              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "reneelattimore"
              <reneelattimore@y...> wrote:

              Hello,

              My name is Renee and I a fairly new to this group having first come
              on in October, 2003.  I am also new to YahooMail.com and have been
              having trouble getting this post sent. 

              I have read most of Rudolf Steiner's books and several of
              his "books" from his lectures.  I truly love reading all things
              Steiner, and I have been enjoying the discussions on this list.  I
              especially like the ties to astrology.   Because of the problems you
              all have been having with the list, perhaps it is time to introduce
              myself to the group and give up "lurking" in the shadows.

              I have been fortunate to have found a Steiner Study Group in the New
              Orleans area and have met some wonderful, interesting and caring
              friends.  We also choose a book to study for Holy Nights, usually
              one of Steiners books on the gospels.  I would love to be a part of
              the discussions if you start at the end of this month.

              I hope this post goes through this time.  I would hate to be
              considered a spammer!

              Sincerely
              Renee Lattimore

            • Renee Lattimore
              Dear Sheila, Thanks for the welcome! I was quite surprised by the interest in Steiner in New Orleans. I am not familiar with Olin Wannamaker but many of you
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 26, 2003
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                Dear Sheila,
                 
                Thanks for the welcome! 
                 
                I was quite surprised by the interest in Steiner in New Orleans.  I am not familiar with Olin Wannamaker but many of you might know Bobby Matherne who hails form this great city.  His Steiner book reviews are posted on www.doyletics.com/arj.  He does an outstanding job on these reviews!
                 
                Is your sister interested in Steiner, also?  The group isn't easy to find, so if she is interested I could call her.
                 
                Hope I can sent this without having to try three times!  
                 
                Renee
                 
                 
                lilolemissy <lilolemissy@...> wrote:
                Dear Renee,
                 
                What a joy to hear from you and to hear about your keen interest in Steiner! New Orleans is where I grew up, and my sister is now in Metairie, but many years ago N.O. was far more active in Anthroposophy than perhaps now - at least one of the "wise oldtimers" lived there for awhile, Olin Wannamaker, and you may find his name here or there as having translated various Steiner lectures/books.
                 
                It seems some of us have had some difficulty sending postings to our list, since the words below the "ad" following our signatures gives the wrong address, and for awhile yahoo.com itself was causing difficulties. steiner@yahoogroups.com is the correct address and the one you came through on! HOORAY!
                 
                Cheers!
                 
                Sheila

                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "reneelattimore"
                <reneelattimore@y...> wrote:

                Hello,

                My name is Renee and I a fairly new to this group having first come
                on in October, 2003.  I am also new to YahooMail.com and have been
                having trouble getting this post sent. 

                I have read most of Rudolf Steiner's books and several of
                his "books" from his lectures.  I truly love reading all things
                Steiner, and I have been enjoying the discussions on this list.  I
                especially like the ties to astrology.   Because of the problems you
                all have been having with the list, perhaps it is time to introduce
                myself to the group and give up "lurking" in the shadows.

                I have been fortunate to have found a Steiner Study Group in the New
                Orleans area and have met some wonderful, interesting and caring
                friends.  We also choose a book to study for Holy Nights, usually
                one of Steiners books on the gospels.  I would love to be a part of
                the discussions if you start at the end of this month.

                I hope this post goes through this time.  I would hate to be
                considered a spammer!

                Sincerely
                Renee Lattimore



                Post to steiner@egroups.com

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                steiner-unsubscribe@egroups.com

                Search the archives of the group at:
                http://www.esotericlinks.com/egroupsearch.html

                Recommended books by Rudolf Steiner at:
                http://www.esotericlinks.com/steinerbooks.html



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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              • lilolemissy
                Hi, Renee! :) I m so very glad to see a resurgence of AP in Nawlins and of course you wouldn t expected to be familiar with Wannamaker since he was one of the
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 26, 2003
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                  Hi, Renee! :)
                   
                  I'm so very glad to see a resurgence of AP in Nawlins and of course you wouldn't expected to be familiar with Wannamaker since he was one of the "early pioneers," so to say, in AP. I don't believe he was a native of the city even while living there, and I came across something about him due to his having translated or written something by or about Steiner. I believe he was born in China of missionary parents and had quite a wonderfully eventful life in many varying areas of the world.
                   
                  I believe the Bobby Matherne you mention might be the one from Luling now living on West Bank, who has for some years written many book reviews on "the interests of the day" for his home printing business? If I remember correctly he "skims a given book's highlights", so to say, while selling some sort of psychological method named Doylectics as his main pursuit? 
                   
                  So far, Renee, my sister may still lean more toward Edgar Cayce than Steiner - ACK! As very young searchers we both began with Cayce but I soon found Steiner - HOORAY - but I'm "casually" sending her this or that RS work, saying "This is an extra and I can't bear to just throw it away..."  To be truthful, I feel like gluing the "seeds" into place, but she's tougher than I am! :) It seems I may be seeing a few cracks in her armor now and then, so there's hope yet!!!!
                   
                  I do want to thank you for your precious offer to contact her, and who knows? Some seeds may hopefully begin to "sprout!"
                   
                  Cheers,
                   
                  Sheila

                  Dear Sheila,
                   
                  Thanks for the welcome! 
                   
                  I was quite surprised by the interest in Steiner in New Orleans.  I am not familiar with Olin Wannamaker but many of you might know Bobby Matherne who hails form this great city.  His Steiner book reviews are posted on www.doyletics.com/arj.  He does an outstanding job on these reviews!
                   
                  Is your sister interested in Steiner, also?  The group isn't easy to find, so if she is interested I could call her.
                   
                  Hope I can sent this without having to try three times!  
                   
                  Renee
                   
                   
                  lilolemissy <lilolemissy@...> wrote:
                  Dear Renee,
                   
                  What a joy to hear from you and to hear about your keen interest in Steiner! New Orleans is where I grew up, and my sister is now in Metairie, but many years ago N.O. was far more active in Anthroposophy than perhaps now - at least one of the "wise oldtimers" lived there for awhile, Olin Wannamaker, and you may find his name here or there as having translated various Steiner lectures/books.
                   
                  It seems some of us have had some difficulty sending postings to our list, since the words below the "ad" following our signatures gives the wrong address, and for awhile yahoo.com itself was causing difficulties. steiner@yahoogroups.com is the correct address and the one you came through on! HOORAY!
                   
                  Cheers!
                   
                  Sheila

                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "reneelattimore"
                  <reneelattimore@y...> wrote:

                  Hello,

                  My name is Renee and I a fairly new to this group having first come
                  on in October, 2003.  I am also new to YahooMail.com and have been
                  having trouble getting this post sent. 

                  I have read most of Rudolf Steiner's books and several of
                  his "books" from his lectures.  I truly love reading all things
                  Steiner, and I have been enjoying the discussions on this list.  I
                  especially like the ties to astrology.   Because of the problems you
                  all have been having with the list, perhaps it is time to introduce
                  myself to the group and give up "lurking" in the shadows.

                  I have been fortunate to have found a Steiner Study Group in the New
                  Orleans area and have met some wonderful, interesting and caring
                  friends.  We also choose a book to study for Holy Nights, usually
                  one of Steiners books on the gospels.  I would love to be a part of
                  the discussions if you start at the end of this month.

                  I hope this post goes through this time.  I would hate to be
                  considered a spammer!

                  Sincerely
                  Renee Lattimore


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