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Re: America-Fascism-9/11- Steiner

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  • happypick2000
    ... And your point is? Merry Christmas, Sheila
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 12, 2007
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      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Theodor Grekenquist"
      <grekenquist@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@> wrote:
      >
      > > For those who do not read, this list is named Steiner. It is devoted
      > > to the study of Rudolf Steiner and his works which lead to an
      > > understanding of Anthroposophy. The egocentric Donald Trump in company
      > > with the slavering vacuum brained Wolf Blitzer mumbling Socialistic
      > > anti-American hatreds on Ted Turner's Voco-blurbed CNN network, is
      > > most definitely out of place here as well as reflecting graphically
      > > upon the contributors of this refuse.
      >
      > I agree wholeheartedly that it's much better to quote the Doctor
      > (which I am doing below) than to feature characters like Donald Trump,
      > or like Ted Turner for that matter. They're super-capitalists,
      > billionaires and materialists. It would be odd for them to be
      > Communists, however, because Rudolf Steiner called Communism "false
      > socialism", meaning that there was some sort of socialism that wasn't
      > false, namely economic fraternity.
      >
      > It would however be unfair to Trump & Turner to label them
      > anti-American when compared to the Doctor. Here he talks about how the
      > seventh post-Atlantean epoch will arise from the Western hemisphere
      > and bring about the War of All Against All and the destruction of the
      > entire cycle:
      >
      > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FoundEsoter/19051031p01.html
      >
      > "The Seventh Sub-Race will be a premature birth. It will make
      > outwardly real too soon and too strongly what has come forth from Manas.
      >
      > "In the Sixth Sub-Race the predisposition will be given for the
      > overcoming of egoism, but in such a way that the balance is held
      > between selfhood and selflessness. The man of the Sixth Sub-Race, will
      > neither lose himself in what is outside, nor shut himself up in what
      > is within. With the Seventh Sub-Race a kind of hypertrophy will come
      > about. Man will then pour out what he now has within him: his egoism.
      > On the other hand the members of the Sixth Sub-Race will hold the
      > balance. The Seventh Sub-Race will harden egoism. Later the
      > English-American people will be projected as something rigidified into
      > the Sixth Root-Race, just as today the Chinese are a rigidified
      > residue of the Atlantean Age, the Fourth Root-Race.
      >
      > "World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race. From that
      > direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism. It is from
      > England and America that all the discoveries come that will cover the
      > Earth like a network of egoism. So it is from there that the whole
      > Earth will be covered by a network of egotistic evil. But from a small
      > colony in the East [The Slavonic peoples.] there will be developed, as
      > though from a seed, new life for the future.
      >
      > "The English-American civilisation consumes European culture. The
      > sects in England and America represent nothing other than the most
      > incredible conservation of what is old. But such Societies as the
      > Salvation Army, the Theosophical Society and so on, come into
      > existence just there, in order to rescue souls from decadence, for
      > race evolution does not run parallel with soul evolution. But the race
      > itself is going towards its destruction. Within it is the seed of the
      > evil race."
      >
      > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Foundations of Esotericism, Lecture 28, Berlin,
      > 3lst October 1905, GA #93a )
      >
      >
      > During the Great War, the Doctor spoke a great deal about the
      > manipulation of global events by certain small circles in the West,
      > and he was so critical of Woodrow Wilson that he once asked what his
      > brain would be worth if he wasn't sitting in the White House Chair.
      > And the following excerpt is very interesting to read today, in the
      > light of current affairs:
      >
      > "But the potentiality of developing another occult capacity is also
      > even strenghtened in a certain way if it is developed out of a certain
      > instinct of hatred. This is a strange phenomenon. We often ask
      > ourselves, and we are dealing here with something that must be
      > considered quite objectively, why such senseless abuse has been
      > practiced in the Western countries. This also comes out of the
      > instinct leading toward these capacities. For what constitutes the
      > profoundest impelling forces in Western occultism is fostered by
      > nothing more powerfully than by the development of feelings that are
      > untrue but are sensed as in some way holy, and that can represent the
      > people of the East and especially those of the Central countries as
      > barbarians. the potentialities of material occultism, for example, are
      > fostered by the attitude of mine constituting the so-called crusading
      > temperament in America. This consists in the feeling that America is
      > called to spread over the whole earth freedom and justice and I know
      > not what other beautiful things. Of course, the people there believe
      > that. What I am saying here has nothing to do with fault finding. The
      > people believe that they are engaged in a crusade, but this belief in
      > something false constitutes a support working in a certain direction.
      > If a person should consciously make an untrue statement, he would not
      > have this support."
      >
      > ( -- Rudolf *Steiner: Die Soziale Grundforderung unserer Zeit In
      > reänderter Zeitage: December 1, 1918: Die Entwickelung mechanischer,
      > eugenetischer und hygienischer okkulter Fähigkeiten in der Zukunft, GA
      > #186: )
      >
      > Happy holidays,
      >
      > Theodor
      >
      And your point is?

      Merry Christmas,

      Sheila
    • Durward Starman
      ******* The point, Sheila, is that everything American is evil, as all good products of American public schools already know. ;- This is as tiresome as
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 12, 2007
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        ******* The point, Sheila, is that everything American is evil, as all good products of American public schools already know. ;->
         
            This is as tiresome as batting down the repeated resurrections of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. So ok; let's get it over with and get back to preparing for the Holy Nights.
         
        1. The thing that's turned off many people to the Christian religion is how the Bible can be selectively quoted to prove almost anything a person wants to prove.  The teachings of Dr. Steiner are not meant to be used in this fashion.  It is a science, with its main principles laid out in its textbooks. Yes, its originator afterwards gave many lectures based on what's in those textbooks.  The basic books contain anthroposophy. Dr. Steiner did not want his lectures written down, whereas he wrote the books to be read by everyone. German anthroposophists are quite tired of everything been supported by “Dr. Steiner hat gesagt”--- “Dr. Steiner said.”

         

        1. Those lectures are shorthand reports which he never had the time to go over and correct.  In the early years, such as the 1905 lectures quoted, they did not yet have a professional stenographer. It is possible to find all sorts of strange ‘quotes’ in the fragmentary transcripts of those early years. Look at the later years where so many were reliably reported, and see if you find confirmation of those things, and you seldom will, or at least they are quite different when a full, complete quote is found on the same topic.  Dr. Steiner wrote some 30 books and gave thousands of lectures.  To base an entire point of view on what may be found in a few words from one early lecture is quite foolish IMO, especially if the subject was treated by him in his written works and can be compared to what is said there.

         

        1. Specifically, Dr. Steiner wrote an entire book on the organization of society from out of spiritual knowledge, The Threefold Commonwealth. He gave dozens of lectures in support of the ideas expressed there. Very well. Quote one thing from his written works saying as something true for all eternity about the English people or the American people. You won’t find it. ( Likewise, quote one statement from his works on the organization of society saying that the state should take over the economy, which is socialism. You will find only the exact opposite, that the state is meant to be in one sphere and as separate as possible from the economic sphere. This point is overlooked so often by students of anthroposophy who bring in their left-wing biases, that when I was attending lectures at the Goetheanum by a pupil of the threefold social order, I had to ask him to state specifically that Steiner was an anti-socialist and never supported socialism in any form. He did so, since it was true, and there were lots of sour faces in the young people in the audience.)

         

        1. I've seen people online here trying to argue Steiner was a socialist based on a single quotation from an early lecture, or his friendship with a woman in Vienna, or his teaching at the Workers College (where, he states in his autobiography, he took the job only on the condition that he not have to support Marxism in his teaching). This is absurd, reflective of superficial scholarship, and moreover is a dishonest attempt to misrepresent what Steiner believed and taught. For example, the 1905 quotation was about the sixth and seventh sub-races, which are not to come into existence for about 2000 and 4000 years, respectively. To make one’s judgments on an entire continent of human beings were based on a prediction of what they will grow into millennia from now ---and actually the quote says only that something “projected” from out of that a few thousand years from now will take a different form in the 6th sub-race----  is disturbingly similar to the reasoning behind the "Final Solution" to the "Jewish question" in Nazi Germany, shows a complete misunderstanding of the difference between the bodily nature of human beings and what souls will choose to incarnate in them in some future, and makes a leap in logic from a prediction of the future to deciding one is completely knowledgeable about what trends in the present time lead in that direction. It's like a Greek in the sixth century B.C. opposing the new 'Roman civilization' because he thought it was going to lead to Mussolini. It did, but to much else besides which was good. Using this quote to label Steiner “anti-American” is a slander. He was no such thing.

         

        1. As I mentioned and was conspicuously ignored, it would've been quite natural for a German in 1919 to speak about attempted world domination by the British Empire .  To speak about something similar 80 years later is ridiculous. (The more I deal with these things, the more I see why Steiner didn't want his lectures written down.) There is a story from about 1923, when some people wanted to start a campaign once again for the threefold social order.  They said to Dr. Steiner that they still had lots of the pamphlets he had written in 1919.  He said yes, but they would all have to be rewritten, because they would be found to be not only years out of date, but CENTURIES out of date, because that's how fast the events were changing. Someone with clairvoyant insight could certainly have much to say about the political and economic circumstances today.  Quoting what Steiner said in Germany in the early 1920s about such, would make about as much sense as quoting Julius Caesar about Belgium and Germany.

         

         

        1. Statements of hatred about America and the British Empire as they are today, not several thousand years from now, originate from people who hate Western civilization, Christianity, free-market capitalism and everything connected with these, which includes anthroposophy. Spirit-science could have originated nowhere except in Western civilization and specifically central Europe . This is no accident, as Dr. Steiner needed to build upon the historical evolution we know as the Industrial Revolution, the Protestant Reformation and so on. He was a scientist and was seeking to extend the natural sciences. It would have done him no good to have incarnated in the backward Third World countries that anti-capitalists seem to love. There are no anthroposophists capable of leaving stock certificates to finance the Society in the underdeveloped world. There is no developed economic system or mass communication or legal system. It came in central Europe because it had to appear in the West. People who benefit from the sociocultural evolution that has given us Western civilization, and use this fortunate evolution with its political freedoms, wealth, and technological advancement to spread hatred of Western civilization, belong in a cave in Pakistan with bin Laden. If there was a word for treason against all of civilization, that's what they'd be guilty of.

         

        1. Just as with the philosophers who Steiner combated, this point of view contradicts itself. You are able to express your opinions about America and the Western world being “fascistic” only because they are not and allow you to do so. Your words of criticism would earn you a beheading in really fascist countries. I echo what Matthew here said, walk outside and experience the freedom you have, if you're in a Western country.  Dr. Steiner talked about this time being the one of the “tyranny of the concept”, in other words we tend to have an idea already before we experience something, and we put the concept in place of the living impression given by real experience. He wrote his Philosophy of Freedom to help people to break free of this, to experience your own thinking in self reflection. Unless you do so, you are in a prison of your own ideas, such as those filled with hatred of the Western world, or hatred of the government, or of the people in it. You will also not notice that the people who spread these ideas most strongly also particularly hate the Christ and everything Christian, including anthroposophy if they knew about it. As we looked toward celebrating the coming of the Christ, such hatred is jarring and not welcome here.

         

        QED

         
        Merry Christ-mass (NOT "happy holdays")
        Starman
        www.DrStarman.com



        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        From: grekenquist@...
        Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:59:56 +0000
        Subject: [steiner] Re: America-Fascism-9/11- Steiner

        --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, "happypick2000" <happypick@. ..> wrote:

        > For those who do not read, this list is named Steiner. It is devoted
        > to the study of Rudolf Steiner and his works which lead to an
        > understanding of Anthroposophy. The egocentric Donald Trump in company
        > with the slavering vacuum brained Wolf Blitzer mumbling Socialistic
        > anti-American hatreds on Ted Turner's Voco-blurbed CNN network, is
        > most definitely out of place here as well as reflecting graphically
        > upon the contributors of this refuse.

        I agree wholeheartedly that it's much better to quote the Doctor
        (which I am doing below) than to feature characters like Donald Trump,
        or like Ted Turner for that matter. They're super-capitalists,
        billionaires and materialists. It would be odd for them to be
        Communists, however, because Rudolf Steiner called Communism "false
        socialism", meaning that there was some sort of socialism that wasn't
        false, namely economic fraternity.

        It would however be unfair to Trump & Turner to label them
        anti-American when compared to the Doctor. Here he talks about how the
        seventh post-Atlantean epoch will arise from the Western hemisphere
        and bring about the War of All Against All and the destruction of the
        entire cycle:

        http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ FoundEsoter/ 19051031p01. html

        "The Seventh Sub-Race will be a premature birth. It will make
        outwardly real too soon and too strongly what has come forth from Manas.

        "In the Sixth Sub-Race the predisposition will be given for the
        overcoming of egoism, but in such a way that the balance is held
        between selfhood and selflessness. The man of the Sixth Sub-Race, will
        neither lose himself in what is outside, nor shut himself up in what
        is within. With the Seventh Sub-Race a kind of hypertrophy will come
        about. Man will then pour out what he now has within him: his egoism.
        On the other hand the members of the Sixth Sub-Race will hold the
        balance. The Seventh Sub-Race will harden egoism. Later the
        English-American people will be projected as something rigidified into
        the Sixth Root-Race, just as today the Chinese are a rigidified
        residue of the Atlantean Age, the Fourth Root-Race.

        "World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race. From that
        direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism. It is from
        England and America that all the discoveries come that will cover the
        Earth like a network of egoism. So it is from there that the whole
        Earth will be covered by a network of egotistic evil. But from a small
        colony in the East [The Slavonic peoples.] there will be developed, as
        though from a seed, new life for the future.

        "The English-American civilisation consumes European culture. The
        sects in England and America represent nothing other than the most
        incredible conservation of what is old. But such Societies as the
        Salvation Army, the Theosophical Society and so on, come into
        existence just there, in order to rescue souls from decadence, for
        race evolution does not run parallel with soul evolution. But the race
        itself is going towards its destruction. Within it is the seed of the
        evil race."

        ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Foundations of Esotericism, Lecture 28, Berlin,
        3lst October 1905, GA #93a )

        During the Great War, the Doctor spoke a great deal about the
        manipulation of global events by certain small circles in the West,
        and he was so critical of Woodrow Wilson that he once asked what his
        brain would be worth if he wasn't sitting in the White House Chair.
        And the following excerpt is very interesting to read today, in the
        light of current affairs:

        "But the potentiality of developing another occult capacity is also
        even strenghtened in a certain way if it is developed out of a certain
        instinct of hatred. This is a strange phenomenon. We often ask
        ourselves, and we are dealing here with something that must be
        considered quite objectively, why such senseless abuse has been
        practiced in the Western countries. This also comes out of the
        instinct leading toward these capacities. For what constitutes the
        profoundest impelling forces in Western occultism is fostered by
        nothing more powerfully than by the development of feelings that are
        untrue but are sensed as in some way holy, and that can represent the
        people of the East and especially those of the Central countries as
        barbarians. the potentialities of material occultism, for example, are
        fostered by the attitude of mine constituting the so-called crusading
        temperament in America. This consists in the feeling that America is
        called to spread over the whole earth freedom and justice and I know
        not what other beautiful things. Of course, the people there believe
        that. What I am saying here has nothing to do with fault finding. The
        people believe that they are engaged in a crusade, but this belief in
        something false constitutes a support working in a certain direction.
        If a person should consciously make an untrue statement, he would not
        have this support."

        ( -- Rudolf *Steiner: Die Soziale Grundforderung unserer Zeit In
        reänderter Zeitage: December 1, 1918: Die Entwickelung mechanischer,
        eugenetischer und hygienischer okkulter Fähigkeiten in der Zukunft, GA
        #186: )

        Happy holidays,

        Theodor
        .



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