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America-Fascism-9/11- Steiner

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  • classiquepair
    It almost seems like a bad dream (better yet, a nightmare) that America has taken such a radical turn for the sinister and now exists in a police state nation.
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 10, 2007
      It almost seems like a bad dream (better yet, a nightmare) that
      America has taken such a radical turn for the sinister and now exists
      in a police state nation. Most citizens are unaware of this since
      they usually don't do anything that bumps them against these radical
      changes in policy. The war on "terrorism" really has nothing to do
      with terrorists but is actually a war against the citizens of the
      country. Before Bush came into office, I was looking forward to the
      new millennium thinking that we would realize the vision Steiner laid
      down, of science and Anthroposophy coming together.

      I've been out of it for a while and haven't posted anything here.
      Perhaps it is time for me to dust off a few of my Steiner books and
      start reading. One that might be helpful is Stigman's "The Other
      America."


      Any discussion of this, especially in light of Steiner's work?
    • happypick2000
      ... Dear Classiquepair and Friends, I won t touch on the political ideas mentioned, but it is good to hear someone welcome discussion of Carl Stegman s The
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 10, 2007
        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "classiquepair" <classiquepair@...> wrote:
        >
        > It almost seems like a bad dream (better yet, a nightmare) that
        > America has taken such a radical turn for the sinister and now exists
        > in a police state nation. Most citizens are unaware of this since
        > they usually don't do anything that bumps them against these radical
        > changes in policy. The war on "terrorism" really has nothing to do
        > with terrorists but is actually a war against the citizens of the
        > country. Before Bush came into office, I was looking forward to the
        > new millennium thinking that we would realize the vision Steiner laid
        > down, of science and Anthroposophy coming together.
        >
        > I've been out of it for a while and haven't posted anything here.
        > Perhaps it is time for me to dust off a few of my Steiner books and
        > start reading. One that might be helpful is Stigman's "The Other
        > America."
        >
        >
        > Any discussion of this, especially in light of Steiner's work?
        >
        Dear Classiquepair and Friends,

        I won't touch on the political ideas mentioned, but it is good to hear
        someone welcome discussion of Carl Stegman's "The Other America", 2
        volumes, I seem to recall, both written and published circa early
        1970's, I believe. It seems to me Carl Stegman was a Christian
        Community Priest from Fair Oaks, CA, some 200 miles north of me, and
        very highly regarded. His publicaions touched me very deeply and I
        continue to mull them over now and then. If I recall correctly, Carl
        was not optimistic regarding immediate future events, in particular
        California events, an opinion my work alone graphically and glaringly
        proved to me as correct. I found his study of our mountain ranges in
        this state as emitting forces of destruction especially apt, and
        perhaps that might be only a result of my extensive "on site"
        examination of this state's topography in situ, so to say, exposed by
        my very frequent camping trips with deep love of nature as a whole.
        All of this came to mind during our 1989 Loma Prieta quake, the
        epicenter of which lay some 8 miles from my home, which straddled a
        major fault. Steiner's teachings on earthquakes revealed very much
        during this time in particular, and this vague understanding thereby
        gained connects to my following thoughts.

        In retrospect, I, too, at one time had great hopes for the world and
        our nation's future, but as time passed and study grew ever deeper and
        more difficult, I somehow experienced a sense of "not yet", if that
        vague sentiment makes any sense. That sense seemed exemplified for me
        ever more forcefully as I struggled through Steiner's "The Book of
        Revelation and the Work of the Priest", 18 lectures at Dornach from 5
        to 22 September 1924 - I seemed to gain an impression, rightly or
        wrongly, from something in this work of our current times coinciding
        in some way or other, to a given stage mentioned in "The Apocalypse" -
        a stage of our earth's evolution entering upon a difficult phase - a
        vague, to me, reminder that we humans are not solely in control of
        events, whether they be earthly or cosmic. We humans must strive
        insofar as we are able to incorporate Anthroposophical truths within
        our very beings to the extent we may gain the recognition of and
        a beneficial influence with which to aid the Good Spiritual Beings.
        Blessings,
        Sheila
      • Durward Starman
        *******Fascism??? What country are you living in??? If you want to experience a police state , I can recommend visiting several outside of we few fortunate
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 10, 2007
          *******Fascism??? What country are you living in???
           
             If you want to experience a 'police state', I can recommend visiting several outside of we few fortunate ones (the US, Western Europe, Japan, Australia & New Zealand--- in other words those where the Western Civilization in which anthroposophy can be freely cultivated exists). Try a visit to any country in Africa besides South Africa--- any Mideastern country besides Israel, Qatar & Kuwait--- any Asian nation besides Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea--- and ANY South American country. See how long you can take living there before wanting to get back to the US.
           
            This list is not only not meant for politics, but definitely not for mixing bizarre, conspiratorial negativity with any study of spirit-science. I would be happy to explain why these two do not mix. If anyone is addicted to such lower-astral thinking it does little good to point out how it does not exist in anthroposophy, because people project it onto Steiner. I'll just note that it's found nowhere in the basic books of spirit-science, and the books are what we should focus on, being the tools of initiation. Remember, he never wanted his lectures written down, because they were given for that time and those people. For instance, after the British Empire dictated the terms of the Versailles Treaty, in the early 1920s, it made sense to talk about the Anglo-American political powers dictating to the rest of Europe. It's ludicrous to claim any Anglo-American domination of the economic world in any similar way now, since at least the 1960s. The economic center shifted from Europe to Asia long ago--- in fact Steiner noted it shortly before his death.
           
             The kind of thought-patterns resulting from listening to Marxist, US-hating demagogues like Noam Chomsky or Michael Moore, is light-years away from Steiner and anthroposophy; and the two CANNOT be combined, originating not from Micha-El and Christ but from Ahriman, as all materialist/communist thinking does, just as surely as Darwinism does and moral relativity does.
           
             Now, if you'd like to discuss things political in the light of Steiner's work, how about this? Steiner was emphatic that the government must be gotten out of education, so Waldorf Schools must be private, without any State certifying our teachers. Now, what political point of view in the US supports home-schooling and getting the government out of education, and who wants the government more heavily involved? (That won't come down to left/right or Democrat/Republican, as people on both sides will be found to be wrong, for different reasons, interestingly.)
           
             Likewise, anthroposophical medicines are not on some government bureaucracy's list of 'approved' remedies and so state-run health plans do not have them. Who is in favor of giving the government more power over health care, and who is in favor of you having the freedom to use alternative medicine, including anthroposophical medicines?
           
              Instead of hyperbole about 'living in a police state' (here in the freest part of the free world----geez), discussion with some reality in it about the threats to the freedom we have might be in order. But I sense nothing but ranting and raving about the President of the US coming. That is productive of exactly nothing in advancing spiritually IMHO.
           
             As far as tightening up our laws after we let mad Muslim madmen (please, no arguments that it wasn't Al Qaeda) come in and kill 3,000 people by being so loose--- we'd need to, anyway. I know personally several victims of identity theft by Mexicans who snuck across the border and paid someone for a fake social security number. One fellow has been trying to get his life back on track for three years because of our government's refusal to enforce the borders or deport these crooks. I agree with libertarian Ron Paul that a national ID card is a terrible thing, but driver's licenses and social security numbers have already become de facto national ID cards anyway, and the technology will be used to make definite IDs with fingerprints, etc., sooner or later, in every country. If you think we have gone too far with security procedures, I'm afraid to say we've only begun, and the American people, and people all over the world, will support a lot MORE being done.
           
             Lastly, I have seen no movement in science towards anthroposophy since the 1970s--- the exact opposite, I've seen only further movement apart.

          Starman
          www.DrStarman.com



          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          From: classiquepair@...
          Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:05:44 +0000
          Subject: [steiner] America-Fascism-9/11- Steiner

          It almost seems like a bad dream (better yet, a nightmare) that
          America has taken such a radical turn for the sinister and now exists
          in a police state nation. Most citizens are unaware of this since
          they usually don't do anything that bumps them against these radical
          changes in policy. The war on "terrorism" really has nothing to do
          with terrorists but is actually a war against the citizens of the
          country. Before Bush came into office, I was looking forward to the
          new millennium thinking that we would realize the vision Steiner laid
          down, of science and Anthroposophy coming together.

          I've been out of it for a while and haven't posted anything here.
          Perhaps it is time for me to dust off a few of my Steiner books and
          start reading. One that might be helpful is Stigman's "The Other
          America."

          Any discussion of this, especially in light of Steiner's work?


          __.



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        • Mathew Morrell
          ... America has taken such a ... Mathew replies: A police state is defined as a state that operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 10, 2007

            Classiquepair wrote:

            > It almost seems like a bad dream (better yet, a > nightmare) that America has taken such a

            > radical turn for the sinister and now exists
            > in a police state nation. 

            Mathew replies:

            A police state is defined as a state that operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional republic. 

            I don't see this occurring any where on a broad scale level, not now at least.  Citizens still have the freedom to pursue knowledge, enjoy diverse life styles, protect their families with armaments, produce any variety of art, open private businesses, etc, etc.  Turn off your computer, shut off the Boob Tube, and walk outside now and then and you might see people enjoying full, happy lives, un-repressed by a police state.        

            Classiquepair continues:

            >  The war on "terrorism" really has nothing to

            >  do
            with terrorists but is actually a war against
            >  the citizens of the
            country. 

            Mathew replies:

            If the government was taking away our rights, I would agree with you.  But again, I don't see that occurring.  I see the opposite occurring, in fact.  Daily I see law enforcement throwing a wrench in the spokes of radical Islam, prohibiting them from destroying our way of life.  Take away their rights, not ours, and the The West will experience a thousand years of light.           

            Classiquepair continues:

            > Before Bush came into office, I was looking

            >
            forward to the new millennium thinking that
            > we would realize the vision Steiner laid
            > down, of science and Anthroposophy coming
            > together.   

            Mathew replies:

            For goodness sake, stop holding your self back and enjoy the new millennium.  All your neurotic beliefs about living in a police state will instantly dissolve once you step into the sunlight and become actively involved with life.  A Christic impulse penetrates the new Millennium, all the stronger and more powerful to counteract the Adversarial forces incarnating in our current Epoch. 

             

             

          • classiquepair
            For people who didn t want to discuss a topic here, you certainly had high enough word counts on your responses.
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 11, 2007
              For people who didn't want to discuss a topic here, you certainly had
              high enough word counts on your responses.
            • Theodor Grekenquist
              ... The point could have been made shorter. Here is one of them bitter Marxists attacking America again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a30rJQbDDno Theodor
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 11, 2007
                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "classiquepair" <classiquepair@...> wrote:
                >
                > For people who didn't want to discuss a topic here, you certainly had
                > high enough word counts on your responses.

                The point could have been made shorter. Here is one of them bitter
                Marxists attacking America again:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a30rJQbDDno

                Theodor
              • Durward Starman
                *******This is completely off topic for this list. There are plenty of lists you can go to to vent negativity---- sorry, I mean, discuss politics (as you
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 11, 2007
                  *******This is completely off topic for this list. There are plenty of lists you can go to to vent negativity---- sorry, I mean, "discuss politics" (as you apparently conceive that, with there being only one politically correct opinion). It has nothing to do with Steiner or anthroposophy.
                   
                      I posted some suggestions for debating policies relevant to spirit-science, like getting the state out of its involvement in education, but obviously intelligent discussion is not the goal here, and so these were not taken up--- as expected.
                   
                     Further, not only is propaganda from one party or another in the US irrelevant to the study of Steiner (not to mention irrelevant to the many members here from other countries), but one of the primary signs of anthroposophical development is that one's feelings and sensitivities progress, one's standards improve. Mere absorbing of information is a low priority. Base hurling of insults is not indicative of anyone walking this path, be they ever so clever. So it is not just irrelevant but actually harmful to spiritual work, such as some people here are seeking to do with Steiner, not make off-topic political arguments.
                   
                     So this is an end to this 'discussion'. Oh, and it's Christmas, by the way.

                  Starman
                  www.DrStarman.com



                  To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                  From: grekenquist@...
                  Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:56:28 +0000
                  Subject: [steiner] Re: America-Fascism-9/11- Steiner

                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, "classiquepair" <classiquepair@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > For people who didn't want to discuss a topic here, you certainly had
                  > high enough word counts on your responses.

                  The point could have been made shorter. Here is one of them bitter
                  Marxists attacking America





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                • happypick2000
                  ... For those who do not read, this list is named Steiner. It is devoted to the study of Rudolf Steiner and his works which lead to an understanding of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 11, 2007
                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Theodor Grekenquist"
                    <grekenquist@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "classiquepair" <classiquepair@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > For people who didn't want to discuss a topic here, you certainly had
                    > > high enough word counts on your responses.
                    >
                    > The point could have been made shorter. Here is one of them bitter
                    > Marxists attacking America again:
                    >
                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a30rJQbDDno
                    >
                    > Theodor
                    >
                    For those who do not read, this list is named Steiner. It is devoted
                    to the study of Rudolf Steiner and his works which lead to an
                    understanding of Anthroposophy. The egocentric Donald Trump in company
                    with the slavering vacuum brained Wolf Blitzer mumbling Socialistic
                    anti-American hatreds on Ted Turner's Voco-blurbed CNN network, is
                    most definitely out of place here as well as reflecting graphically
                    upon the contributors of this refuse. Has anyone ever learned
                    Steiner's minutely detailed explanation of movies? I suggest those of
                    you fond of these mediums may profit greatly by a study of the
                    spirituality incorporated within such presentations and leave the
                    students of Rudolf Steiner and his work to utilize this list as we
                    have agreed to.

                    Sheila
                  • Theodor Grekenquist
                    ... I agree wholeheartedly that it s much better to quote the Doctor (which I am doing below) than to feature characters like Donald Trump, or like Ted Turner
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 11, 2007
                      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@...> wrote:

                      > For those who do not read, this list is named Steiner. It is devoted
                      > to the study of Rudolf Steiner and his works which lead to an
                      > understanding of Anthroposophy. The egocentric Donald Trump in company
                      > with the slavering vacuum brained Wolf Blitzer mumbling Socialistic
                      > anti-American hatreds on Ted Turner's Voco-blurbed CNN network, is
                      > most definitely out of place here as well as reflecting graphically
                      > upon the contributors of this refuse.

                      I agree wholeheartedly that it's much better to quote the Doctor
                      (which I am doing below) than to feature characters like Donald Trump,
                      or like Ted Turner for that matter. They're super-capitalists,
                      billionaires and materialists. It would be odd for them to be
                      Communists, however, because Rudolf Steiner called Communism "false
                      socialism", meaning that there was some sort of socialism that wasn't
                      false, namely economic fraternity.

                      It would however be unfair to Trump & Turner to label them
                      anti-American when compared to the Doctor. Here he talks about how the
                      seventh post-Atlantean epoch will arise from the Western hemisphere
                      and bring about the War of All Against All and the destruction of the
                      entire cycle:

                      http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FoundEsoter/19051031p01.html

                      "The Seventh Sub-Race will be a premature birth. It will make
                      outwardly real too soon and too strongly what has come forth from Manas.

                      "In the Sixth Sub-Race the predisposition will be given for the
                      overcoming of egoism, but in such a way that the balance is held
                      between selfhood and selflessness. The man of the Sixth Sub-Race, will
                      neither lose himself in what is outside, nor shut himself up in what
                      is within. With the Seventh Sub-Race a kind of hypertrophy will come
                      about. Man will then pour out what he now has within him: his egoism.
                      On the other hand the members of the Sixth Sub-Race will hold the
                      balance. The Seventh Sub-Race will harden egoism. Later the
                      English-American people will be projected as something rigidified into
                      the Sixth Root-Race, just as today the Chinese are a rigidified
                      residue of the Atlantean Age, the Fourth Root-Race.

                      "World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race. From that
                      direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism. It is from
                      England and America that all the discoveries come that will cover the
                      Earth like a network of egoism. So it is from there that the whole
                      Earth will be covered by a network of egotistic evil. But from a small
                      colony in the East [The Slavonic peoples.] there will be developed, as
                      though from a seed, new life for the future.

                      "The English-American civilisation consumes European culture. The
                      sects in England and America represent nothing other than the most
                      incredible conservation of what is old. But such Societies as the
                      Salvation Army, the Theosophical Society and so on, come into
                      existence just there, in order to rescue souls from decadence, for
                      race evolution does not run parallel with soul evolution. But the race
                      itself is going towards its destruction. Within it is the seed of the
                      evil race."

                      ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Foundations of Esotericism, Lecture 28, Berlin,
                      3lst October 1905, GA #93a )


                      During the Great War, the Doctor spoke a great deal about the
                      manipulation of global events by certain small circles in the West,
                      and he was so critical of Woodrow Wilson that he once asked what his
                      brain would be worth if he wasn't sitting in the White House Chair.
                      And the following excerpt is very interesting to read today, in the
                      light of current affairs:

                      "But the potentiality of developing another occult capacity is also
                      even strenghtened in a certain way if it is developed out of a certain
                      instinct of hatred. This is a strange phenomenon. We often ask
                      ourselves, and we are dealing here with something that must be
                      considered quite objectively, why such senseless abuse has been
                      practiced in the Western countries. This also comes out of the
                      instinct leading toward these capacities. For what constitutes the
                      profoundest impelling forces in Western occultism is fostered by
                      nothing more powerfully than by the development of feelings that are
                      untrue but are sensed as in some way holy, and that can represent the
                      people of the East and especially those of the Central countries as
                      barbarians. the potentialities of material occultism, for example, are
                      fostered by the attitude of mine constituting the so-called crusading
                      temperament in America. This consists in the feeling that America is
                      called to spread over the whole earth freedom and justice and I know
                      not what other beautiful things. Of course, the people there believe
                      that. What I am saying here has nothing to do with fault finding. The
                      people believe that they are engaged in a crusade, but this belief in
                      something false constitutes a support working in a certain direction.
                      If a person should consciously make an untrue statement, he would not
                      have this support."

                      ( -- Rudolf *Steiner: Die Soziale Grundforderung unserer Zeit In
                      reänderter Zeitage: December 1, 1918: Die Entwickelung mechanischer,
                      eugenetischer und hygienischer okkulter Fähigkeiten in der Zukunft, GA
                      #186: )

                      Happy holidays,

                      Theodor
                    • happypick2000
                      ... And your point is? Merry Christmas, Sheila
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 12, 2007
                        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "Theodor Grekenquist"
                        <grekenquist@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "happypick2000" <happypick@> wrote:
                        >
                        > > For those who do not read, this list is named Steiner. It is devoted
                        > > to the study of Rudolf Steiner and his works which lead to an
                        > > understanding of Anthroposophy. The egocentric Donald Trump in company
                        > > with the slavering vacuum brained Wolf Blitzer mumbling Socialistic
                        > > anti-American hatreds on Ted Turner's Voco-blurbed CNN network, is
                        > > most definitely out of place here as well as reflecting graphically
                        > > upon the contributors of this refuse.
                        >
                        > I agree wholeheartedly that it's much better to quote the Doctor
                        > (which I am doing below) than to feature characters like Donald Trump,
                        > or like Ted Turner for that matter. They're super-capitalists,
                        > billionaires and materialists. It would be odd for them to be
                        > Communists, however, because Rudolf Steiner called Communism "false
                        > socialism", meaning that there was some sort of socialism that wasn't
                        > false, namely economic fraternity.
                        >
                        > It would however be unfair to Trump & Turner to label them
                        > anti-American when compared to the Doctor. Here he talks about how the
                        > seventh post-Atlantean epoch will arise from the Western hemisphere
                        > and bring about the War of All Against All and the destruction of the
                        > entire cycle:
                        >
                        > http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/FoundEsoter/19051031p01.html
                        >
                        > "The Seventh Sub-Race will be a premature birth. It will make
                        > outwardly real too soon and too strongly what has come forth from Manas.
                        >
                        > "In the Sixth Sub-Race the predisposition will be given for the
                        > overcoming of egoism, but in such a way that the balance is held
                        > between selfhood and selflessness. The man of the Sixth Sub-Race, will
                        > neither lose himself in what is outside, nor shut himself up in what
                        > is within. With the Seventh Sub-Race a kind of hypertrophy will come
                        > about. Man will then pour out what he now has within him: his egoism.
                        > On the other hand the members of the Sixth Sub-Race will hold the
                        > balance. The Seventh Sub-Race will harden egoism. Later the
                        > English-American people will be projected as something rigidified into
                        > the Sixth Root-Race, just as today the Chinese are a rigidified
                        > residue of the Atlantean Age, the Fourth Root-Race.
                        >
                        > "World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race. From that
                        > direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism. It is from
                        > England and America that all the discoveries come that will cover the
                        > Earth like a network of egoism. So it is from there that the whole
                        > Earth will be covered by a network of egotistic evil. But from a small
                        > colony in the East [The Slavonic peoples.] there will be developed, as
                        > though from a seed, new life for the future.
                        >
                        > "The English-American civilisation consumes European culture. The
                        > sects in England and America represent nothing other than the most
                        > incredible conservation of what is old. But such Societies as the
                        > Salvation Army, the Theosophical Society and so on, come into
                        > existence just there, in order to rescue souls from decadence, for
                        > race evolution does not run parallel with soul evolution. But the race
                        > itself is going towards its destruction. Within it is the seed of the
                        > evil race."
                        >
                        > ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Foundations of Esotericism, Lecture 28, Berlin,
                        > 3lst October 1905, GA #93a )
                        >
                        >
                        > During the Great War, the Doctor spoke a great deal about the
                        > manipulation of global events by certain small circles in the West,
                        > and he was so critical of Woodrow Wilson that he once asked what his
                        > brain would be worth if he wasn't sitting in the White House Chair.
                        > And the following excerpt is very interesting to read today, in the
                        > light of current affairs:
                        >
                        > "But the potentiality of developing another occult capacity is also
                        > even strenghtened in a certain way if it is developed out of a certain
                        > instinct of hatred. This is a strange phenomenon. We often ask
                        > ourselves, and we are dealing here with something that must be
                        > considered quite objectively, why such senseless abuse has been
                        > practiced in the Western countries. This also comes out of the
                        > instinct leading toward these capacities. For what constitutes the
                        > profoundest impelling forces in Western occultism is fostered by
                        > nothing more powerfully than by the development of feelings that are
                        > untrue but are sensed as in some way holy, and that can represent the
                        > people of the East and especially those of the Central countries as
                        > barbarians. the potentialities of material occultism, for example, are
                        > fostered by the attitude of mine constituting the so-called crusading
                        > temperament in America. This consists in the feeling that America is
                        > called to spread over the whole earth freedom and justice and I know
                        > not what other beautiful things. Of course, the people there believe
                        > that. What I am saying here has nothing to do with fault finding. The
                        > people believe that they are engaged in a crusade, but this belief in
                        > something false constitutes a support working in a certain direction.
                        > If a person should consciously make an untrue statement, he would not
                        > have this support."
                        >
                        > ( -- Rudolf *Steiner: Die Soziale Grundforderung unserer Zeit In
                        > reänderter Zeitage: December 1, 1918: Die Entwickelung mechanischer,
                        > eugenetischer und hygienischer okkulter Fähigkeiten in der Zukunft, GA
                        > #186: )
                        >
                        > Happy holidays,
                        >
                        > Theodor
                        >
                        And your point is?

                        Merry Christmas,

                        Sheila
                      • Durward Starman
                        ******* The point, Sheila, is that everything American is evil, as all good products of American public schools already know. ;- This is as tiresome as
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 12, 2007
                          ******* The point, Sheila, is that everything American is evil, as all good products of American public schools already know. ;->
                           
                              This is as tiresome as batting down the repeated resurrections of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. So ok; let's get it over with and get back to preparing for the Holy Nights.
                           
                          1. The thing that's turned off many people to the Christian religion is how the Bible can be selectively quoted to prove almost anything a person wants to prove.  The teachings of Dr. Steiner are not meant to be used in this fashion.  It is a science, with its main principles laid out in its textbooks. Yes, its originator afterwards gave many lectures based on what's in those textbooks.  The basic books contain anthroposophy. Dr. Steiner did not want his lectures written down, whereas he wrote the books to be read by everyone. German anthroposophists are quite tired of everything been supported by “Dr. Steiner hat gesagt”--- “Dr. Steiner said.”

                           

                          1. Those lectures are shorthand reports which he never had the time to go over and correct.  In the early years, such as the 1905 lectures quoted, they did not yet have a professional stenographer. It is possible to find all sorts of strange ‘quotes’ in the fragmentary transcripts of those early years. Look at the later years where so many were reliably reported, and see if you find confirmation of those things, and you seldom will, or at least they are quite different when a full, complete quote is found on the same topic.  Dr. Steiner wrote some 30 books and gave thousands of lectures.  To base an entire point of view on what may be found in a few words from one early lecture is quite foolish IMO, especially if the subject was treated by him in his written works and can be compared to what is said there.

                           

                          1. Specifically, Dr. Steiner wrote an entire book on the organization of society from out of spiritual knowledge, The Threefold Commonwealth. He gave dozens of lectures in support of the ideas expressed there. Very well. Quote one thing from his written works saying as something true for all eternity about the English people or the American people. You won’t find it. ( Likewise, quote one statement from his works on the organization of society saying that the state should take over the economy, which is socialism. You will find only the exact opposite, that the state is meant to be in one sphere and as separate as possible from the economic sphere. This point is overlooked so often by students of anthroposophy who bring in their left-wing biases, that when I was attending lectures at the Goetheanum by a pupil of the threefold social order, I had to ask him to state specifically that Steiner was an anti-socialist and never supported socialism in any form. He did so, since it was true, and there were lots of sour faces in the young people in the audience.)

                           

                          1. I've seen people online here trying to argue Steiner was a socialist based on a single quotation from an early lecture, or his friendship with a woman in Vienna, or his teaching at the Workers College (where, he states in his autobiography, he took the job only on the condition that he not have to support Marxism in his teaching). This is absurd, reflective of superficial scholarship, and moreover is a dishonest attempt to misrepresent what Steiner believed and taught. For example, the 1905 quotation was about the sixth and seventh sub-races, which are not to come into existence for about 2000 and 4000 years, respectively. To make one’s judgments on an entire continent of human beings were based on a prediction of what they will grow into millennia from now ---and actually the quote says only that something “projected” from out of that a few thousand years from now will take a different form in the 6th sub-race----  is disturbingly similar to the reasoning behind the "Final Solution" to the "Jewish question" in Nazi Germany, shows a complete misunderstanding of the difference between the bodily nature of human beings and what souls will choose to incarnate in them in some future, and makes a leap in logic from a prediction of the future to deciding one is completely knowledgeable about what trends in the present time lead in that direction. It's like a Greek in the sixth century B.C. opposing the new 'Roman civilization' because he thought it was going to lead to Mussolini. It did, but to much else besides which was good. Using this quote to label Steiner “anti-American” is a slander. He was no such thing.

                           

                          1. As I mentioned and was conspicuously ignored, it would've been quite natural for a German in 1919 to speak about attempted world domination by the British Empire .  To speak about something similar 80 years later is ridiculous. (The more I deal with these things, the more I see why Steiner didn't want his lectures written down.) There is a story from about 1923, when some people wanted to start a campaign once again for the threefold social order.  They said to Dr. Steiner that they still had lots of the pamphlets he had written in 1919.  He said yes, but they would all have to be rewritten, because they would be found to be not only years out of date, but CENTURIES out of date, because that's how fast the events were changing. Someone with clairvoyant insight could certainly have much to say about the political and economic circumstances today.  Quoting what Steiner said in Germany in the early 1920s about such, would make about as much sense as quoting Julius Caesar about Belgium and Germany.

                           

                           

                          1. Statements of hatred about America and the British Empire as they are today, not several thousand years from now, originate from people who hate Western civilization, Christianity, free-market capitalism and everything connected with these, which includes anthroposophy. Spirit-science could have originated nowhere except in Western civilization and specifically central Europe . This is no accident, as Dr. Steiner needed to build upon the historical evolution we know as the Industrial Revolution, the Protestant Reformation and so on. He was a scientist and was seeking to extend the natural sciences. It would have done him no good to have incarnated in the backward Third World countries that anti-capitalists seem to love. There are no anthroposophists capable of leaving stock certificates to finance the Society in the underdeveloped world. There is no developed economic system or mass communication or legal system. It came in central Europe because it had to appear in the West. People who benefit from the sociocultural evolution that has given us Western civilization, and use this fortunate evolution with its political freedoms, wealth, and technological advancement to spread hatred of Western civilization, belong in a cave in Pakistan with bin Laden. If there was a word for treason against all of civilization, that's what they'd be guilty of.

                           

                          1. Just as with the philosophers who Steiner combated, this point of view contradicts itself. You are able to express your opinions about America and the Western world being “fascistic” only because they are not and allow you to do so. Your words of criticism would earn you a beheading in really fascist countries. I echo what Matthew here said, walk outside and experience the freedom you have, if you're in a Western country.  Dr. Steiner talked about this time being the one of the “tyranny of the concept”, in other words we tend to have an idea already before we experience something, and we put the concept in place of the living impression given by real experience. He wrote his Philosophy of Freedom to help people to break free of this, to experience your own thinking in self reflection. Unless you do so, you are in a prison of your own ideas, such as those filled with hatred of the Western world, or hatred of the government, or of the people in it. You will also not notice that the people who spread these ideas most strongly also particularly hate the Christ and everything Christian, including anthroposophy if they knew about it. As we looked toward celebrating the coming of the Christ, such hatred is jarring and not welcome here.

                           

                          QED

                           
                          Merry Christ-mass (NOT "happy holdays")
                          Starman
                          www.DrStarman.com



                          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
                          From: grekenquist@...
                          Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:59:56 +0000
                          Subject: [steiner] Re: America-Fascism-9/11- Steiner

                          --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, "happypick2000" <happypick@. ..> wrote:

                          > For those who do not read, this list is named Steiner. It is devoted
                          > to the study of Rudolf Steiner and his works which lead to an
                          > understanding of Anthroposophy. The egocentric Donald Trump in company
                          > with the slavering vacuum brained Wolf Blitzer mumbling Socialistic
                          > anti-American hatreds on Ted Turner's Voco-blurbed CNN network, is
                          > most definitely out of place here as well as reflecting graphically
                          > upon the contributors of this refuse.

                          I agree wholeheartedly that it's much better to quote the Doctor
                          (which I am doing below) than to feature characters like Donald Trump,
                          or like Ted Turner for that matter. They're super-capitalists,
                          billionaires and materialists. It would be odd for them to be
                          Communists, however, because Rudolf Steiner called Communism "false
                          socialism", meaning that there was some sort of socialism that wasn't
                          false, namely economic fraternity.

                          It would however be unfair to Trump & Turner to label them
                          anti-American when compared to the Doctor. Here he talks about how the
                          seventh post-Atlantean epoch will arise from the Western hemisphere
                          and bring about the War of All Against All and the destruction of the
                          entire cycle:

                          http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ FoundEsoter/ 19051031p01. html

                          "The Seventh Sub-Race will be a premature birth. It will make
                          outwardly real too soon and too strongly what has come forth from Manas.

                          "In the Sixth Sub-Race the predisposition will be given for the
                          overcoming of egoism, but in such a way that the balance is held
                          between selfhood and selflessness. The man of the Sixth Sub-Race, will
                          neither lose himself in what is outside, nor shut himself up in what
                          is within. With the Seventh Sub-Race a kind of hypertrophy will come
                          about. Man will then pour out what he now has within him: his egoism.
                          On the other hand the members of the Sixth Sub-Race will hold the
                          balance. The Seventh Sub-Race will harden egoism. Later the
                          English-American people will be projected as something rigidified into
                          the Sixth Root-Race, just as today the Chinese are a rigidified
                          residue of the Atlantean Age, the Fourth Root-Race.

                          "World-egoism proceeds from the Anglo-American Race. From that
                          direction the whole Earth will be overlaid with egoism. It is from
                          England and America that all the discoveries come that will cover the
                          Earth like a network of egoism. So it is from there that the whole
                          Earth will be covered by a network of egotistic evil. But from a small
                          colony in the East [The Slavonic peoples.] there will be developed, as
                          though from a seed, new life for the future.

                          "The English-American civilisation consumes European culture. The
                          sects in England and America represent nothing other than the most
                          incredible conservation of what is old. But such Societies as the
                          Salvation Army, the Theosophical Society and so on, come into
                          existence just there, in order to rescue souls from decadence, for
                          race evolution does not run parallel with soul evolution. But the race
                          itself is going towards its destruction. Within it is the seed of the
                          evil race."

                          ( -- Rudolf Steiner: Foundations of Esotericism, Lecture 28, Berlin,
                          3lst October 1905, GA #93a )

                          During the Great War, the Doctor spoke a great deal about the
                          manipulation of global events by certain small circles in the West,
                          and he was so critical of Woodrow Wilson that he once asked what his
                          brain would be worth if he wasn't sitting in the White House Chair.
                          And the following excerpt is very interesting to read today, in the
                          light of current affairs:

                          "But the potentiality of developing another occult capacity is also
                          even strenghtened in a certain way if it is developed out of a certain
                          instinct of hatred. This is a strange phenomenon. We often ask
                          ourselves, and we are dealing here with something that must be
                          considered quite objectively, why such senseless abuse has been
                          practiced in the Western countries. This also comes out of the
                          instinct leading toward these capacities. For what constitutes the
                          profoundest impelling forces in Western occultism is fostered by
                          nothing more powerfully than by the development of feelings that are
                          untrue but are sensed as in some way holy, and that can represent the
                          people of the East and especially those of the Central countries as
                          barbarians. the potentialities of material occultism, for example, are
                          fostered by the attitude of mine constituting the so-called crusading
                          temperament in America. This consists in the feeling that America is
                          called to spread over the whole earth freedom and justice and I know
                          not what other beautiful things. Of course, the people there believe
                          that. What I am saying here has nothing to do with fault finding. The
                          people believe that they are engaged in a crusade, but this belief in
                          something false constitutes a support working in a certain direction.
                          If a person should consciously make an untrue statement, he would not
                          have this support."

                          ( -- Rudolf *Steiner: Die Soziale Grundforderung unserer Zeit In
                          reänderter Zeitage: December 1, 1918: Die Entwickelung mechanischer,
                          eugenetischer und hygienischer okkulter Fähigkeiten in der Zukunft, GA
                          #186: )

                          Happy holidays,

                          Theodor
                          .



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