Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

Expand Messages
  • Durward Starman
    *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
       
         Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
       
       "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
      clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
      resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
      through spiritual science."
       
          The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
       
         I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
       
         Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
       
         I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
       
         Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
       
         But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
       
         These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
       
         Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
       
         I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
       
         But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
       
         Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
       
         But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

      Starman
      www.DrStarman.com



      To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
      From: christopherraymond_bio@...
      Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
      Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

      Duward,
      You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
      Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
      novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
      feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
      it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
      to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
      norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
      intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
      clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
      resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
      through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
      miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
      preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
      skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
      danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
      blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
      intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
      miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
      becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
      turning toward spiritual science?

      The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
      bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
      areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
      could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
      living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
      experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
      materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
      uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
      bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
      Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
      so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
      rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
      occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
      here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
      should experience what is required.

      If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
      cultural development as much either, what do you think?

      --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
      >
      >
      > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
      many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
      the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
      in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
      Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
      century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
      people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
      basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
      worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
      also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
      subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
      animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
      a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
      act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
      of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
      the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
      with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
      that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
      grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
      Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
      group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
      influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
      many types of blood, for instance.
      >
      > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
      studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
      longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
      blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
      It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
      that races as we have known them will become of less and less
      importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
      distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
      and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
      less.
      >
      > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
      was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
      actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
      clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
      need for endogamy is long over.
      >
      > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
      is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
      learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
      inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
      completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
      anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
      enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
      is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
      >
      > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
      and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
      no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
      them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
      Caucasian, etc.
      >
      > -Starman
      >
      >
      > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
      20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
      >
      >
      > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
      races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
      howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
      toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
      thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
      beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
      developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
      teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
      are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
      with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
      trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
      Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
      people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
      decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
      of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
      the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
      America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
      signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
      limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
      Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
      and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
      taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
      be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
      theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
      topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
      (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
      amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
      taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
      quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
      appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
      answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
      if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
      books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
      in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
      from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
      such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
      clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
      views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
      Thanks in advance,Chris.
      >
      >
      >

      .



      Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
    • christopherraymond_bio
      Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
        did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
        mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
        Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
        discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
        have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
        him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
        any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
        through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
        it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
        sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

        "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
        you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
        you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
        people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
        miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
        of white people in America still marry white people and black people
        marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
        like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
        to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

        Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
        several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
        statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
        School in Stuttgart":

        "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
        more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
        exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
        not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
        human race...They are very different from human beings where
        spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
        sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
        there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
        would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
        are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
        there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
        enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
        particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
        human form.

        "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
        already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
        frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
        professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
        death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
        "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
        36-37)

        After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
        further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
        agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
        past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
        have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
        I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
        just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
        absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
        me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
        poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
        matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
        teaching that I find discouraging.

        Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
        cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
        has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
        happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
        daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
        hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
        miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
        voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
        bigot.

        To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
        What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
        reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
        racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
        should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
        but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
        profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
        companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
        certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
        is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
        this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
        regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

        > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
        disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
        future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
        associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
        exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
        actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

        Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
        experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

        This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

        "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
        [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
        dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
        they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
        science."

        However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
        blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
        no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
        of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
        to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
        it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
        and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
        honest question.

        Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
        of WWI":

        "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
        spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
        white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
        within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
        the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
        that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
        by the four other cultural epochs".

        "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
        impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
        the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
        clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
        spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
        in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
        the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
        demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
        skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
        do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

        Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
        acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
        introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
        again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
        into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
        seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
        most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
        opinion.

        "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
        expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
        little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
        to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
        race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
        is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
        culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
        sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
        I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
        earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
        cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
        to culturally, indeed. "

        First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
        In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
        insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
        from "Health and Illness in 1922:

        "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
        give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
        to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
        blood children will be born in Europe"

        Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
        investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
        washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
        racist.

        "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
        bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
        tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
        to me. Definitions, please."

        "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
        The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
        not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
        differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
        different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
        But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
        only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
        Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
        Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
        development."

        Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

        "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
        millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
        come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
        cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
        surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
        many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
        brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
        that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
        the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
        because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
        could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
        necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

        Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
        the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
        http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

        "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
        until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
        suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
        already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
        reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
        physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
        incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
        genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
        observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
        among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
        already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
        uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
        reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
        Mill put it (7).

        "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
        positively beneficial. European and American children need to
        experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
        music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
        blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
        even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
        passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
        Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
        CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
        allowed to be so confused. "

        Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
        might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
        blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
        another.












        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
        you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
        you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
        people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
        miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
        of white people in America still marry white people and black people
        marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
        like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
        to marry lighter-skinned mates).
        >
        > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
        physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
        is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
        reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
        >
        > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
        clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
        resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
        through spiritual science."
        >
        > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
        become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
        then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
        Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
        in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
        clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
        endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
        same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
        into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
        (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
        whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
        does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
        Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
        worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
        white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
        yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
        focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
        interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
        1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
        has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
        >
        > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
        disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
        future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
        associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
        exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
        actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
        >
        > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
        expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
        little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
        to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
        race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
        is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
        culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
        sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
        I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
        earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
        cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
        to culturally, indeed.
        >
        > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
        bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
        tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
        to me. Definitions, please.
        >
        > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
        The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
        not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
        differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
        different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
        But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
        only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
        Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
        Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
        development.
        >
        > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
        individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
        astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
        incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
        formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
        that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
        approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
        soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
        Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
        very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
        black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
        Malcolm X.
        >
        > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
        being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
        third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
        whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
        >
        > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
        ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
        souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
        in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
        encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
        culture just as much as old ones.
        >
        > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
        nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
        spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
        >
        > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
        positively beneficial. European and American children need to
        experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
        music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
        blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
        even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
        passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
        Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
        CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
        allowed to be so confused.
        >
        > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
        science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
        is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
        here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
        because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
        year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
        Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
        problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
        manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
        so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
        dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
        countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
        souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
        >
        > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
        born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
        here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
        civilization.
        > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
        >
        >
        > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
        01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
        >
        >
        > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
        why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
        Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
        not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
        it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
        to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
        norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
        intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
        clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
        resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
        through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
        is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
        contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
        hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
        the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
        miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
        spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
        encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
        materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
        spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
        Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
        incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
        elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
        suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
        those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
        materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
        uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
        bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
        came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
        should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
        rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
        occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
        here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
        should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
        miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
        either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
        Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
        one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
        approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
        described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
        in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
        lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
        remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
        superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
        Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
        made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
        racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
        way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
        not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
        the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
        or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
        strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
        accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
        into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
        of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
        touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
        the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
        one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
        a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
        Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
        ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
        now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
        foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
        become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
        races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
        as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
        future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
        more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
        > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
        something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
        actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
        clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
        need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
        to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
        science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
        over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
        seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
        tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
        soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
        from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
        not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
        blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
        Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
        incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
        when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
        christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
        [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
        mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
        Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
        clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
        how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
        implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
        ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
        when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
        how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
        or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
        in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
        about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
        the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
        their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
        color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
        past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
        Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
        in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
        limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
        Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
        and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
        taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
        be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
        theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
        topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
        (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
        amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
        taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
        quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
        appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
        answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
        if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
        books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
        in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
        from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
        such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
        clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
        views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
        Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
        > .
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
        scramble challenge with star power.
        > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
        icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
        >
      • Durward Starman
        ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
        • 0 Attachment


          >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
          did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
           
          *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
           
           
           
          >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
           
          *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



          >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
          cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
           
           
          ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



           Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
          "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
          give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
          to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
          blood children will be born in Europe"
          Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
          investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
          washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
          racist.

          ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

              I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


          >  Each spirit is an
          individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
          astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
          incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
          formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
          that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
          approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
          soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
          Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
          very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
          black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
          viz., Malcolm X.
          > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
          being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
          third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
          whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
          > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
          nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
          spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
           
          Starman
          www.DrStarma n.com

          .



          Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
        • christopherraymond_bio
          Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
            hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
            However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
            quoted:

            "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
            become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
            it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

            Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
            here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
            races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
            to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
            he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
            races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
            if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

            When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
            having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
            were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
            early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
            other statements about the Mongols.

            I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
            something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
            races', I think.
            Chris.



            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
            question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
            >
            > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
            post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
            even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
            another.
            >
            >
            >
            > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
            >
            > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
            > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
            cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
            >
            >
            > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
            without having to have black fathers.
            > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
            convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
            them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
            Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
            children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
            say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
            and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
            angle in claiming he was a racist.
            > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
            shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
            spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
            stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
            with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
            kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
            essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
            can.
            > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
            is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
            comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
            bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
            But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
            That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
            soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
            an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
            culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
            skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
            a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
            school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
            spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
            moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
            > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
            avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
            things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
            > www.DrStarman.com
            > .
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
            scramble challenge with star power.
            > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
            icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
            >
          • happypick2000
            Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

              Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
              simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
              important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
              inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
              discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
              existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
              Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
              be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
              else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
              consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
              accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
              definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
              cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
              This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
              our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
              so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
              cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
              such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
              beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
              impasse.

              Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
              the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
              haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
              the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
              mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

              Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
              spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

              Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
              plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
              to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
              perhaps as an etheric human?

              We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
              we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
              to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
              actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
              important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
              Blessings,
              Sheila

              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
              <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
              > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
              > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
              > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
              > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
              > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
              > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
              > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
              > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
              > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
              > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
              >
              > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
              > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
              > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
              > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
              > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
              > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
              > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
              > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
              > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
              >
              > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
              > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
              > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
              > School in Stuttgart":
              >
              > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
              > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
              > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
              > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
              > human race...They are very different from human beings where
              > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
              > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
              > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
              > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
              > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
              > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
              > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
              > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
              > human form.
              >
              > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
              > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
              > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
              > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
              > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
              > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
              > 36-37)
              >
              > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
              > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
              > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
              > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
              > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
              > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
              > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
              > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
              > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
              > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
              > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
              > teaching that I find discouraging.
              >
              > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
              > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
              > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
              > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
              > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
              > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
              > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
              > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
              > bigot.
              >
              > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
              > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
              > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
              > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
              > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
              > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
              > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
              > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
              > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
              > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
              > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
              > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
              >
              > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
              > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
              > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
              > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
              > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
              > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
              >
              > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
              > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
              >
              > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
              >
              > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
              > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
              > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
              > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
              > science."
              >
              > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
              > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
              > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
              > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
              > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
              > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
              > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
              > honest question.
              >
              > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
              > of WWI":
              >
              > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
              > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
              > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
              > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
              > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
              > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
              > by the four other cultural epochs".
              >
              > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
              > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
              > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
              > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
              > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
              > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
              > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
              > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
              > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
              > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
              >
              > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
              > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
              > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
              > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
              > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
              > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
              > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
              > opinion.
              >
              > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
              > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
              > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
              > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
              > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
              > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
              > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
              > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
              > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
              > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
              > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
              > to culturally, indeed. "
              >
              > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
              > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
              > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
              > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
              >
              > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
              > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
              > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
              > blood children will be born in Europe"
              >
              > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
              > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
              > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
              > racist.
              >
              > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
              > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
              > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
              > to me. Definitions, please."
              >
              > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
              > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
              > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
              > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
              > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
              > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
              > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
              > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
              > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
              > development."
              >
              > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
              >
              > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
              > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
              > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
              > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
              > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
              > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
              > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
              > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
              > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
              > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
              > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
              > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
              >
              > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
              > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
              > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
              >
              > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
              > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
              > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
              > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
              > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
              > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
              > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
              > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
              > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
              > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
              > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
              > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
              > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
              > Mill put it (7).
              >
              > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
              > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
              > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
              > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
              > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
              > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
              > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
              > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
              > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
              > allowed to be so confused. "
              >
              > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
              > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
              > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
              > another.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
              > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
              > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
              > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
              > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
              > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
              > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
              > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
              > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
              > >
              > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
              > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
              > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
              > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
              > >
              > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
              > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
              > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
              > through spiritual science."
              > >
              > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
              > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
              > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
              > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
              > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
              > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
              > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
              > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
              > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
              > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
              > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
              > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
              > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
              > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
              > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
              > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
              > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
              > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
              > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
              > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
              > >
              > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
              > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
              > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
              > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
              > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
              > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
              > >
              > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
              > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
              > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
              > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
              > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
              > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
              > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
              > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
              > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
              > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
              > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
              > to culturally, indeed.
              > >
              > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
              > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
              > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
              > to me. Definitions, please.
              > >
              > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
              > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
              > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
              > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
              > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
              > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
              > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
              > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
              > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
              > development.
              > >
              > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
              > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
              > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
              > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
              > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
              > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
              > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
              > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
              > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
              > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
              > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
              > Malcolm X.
              > >
              > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
              > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
              > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
              > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
              > >
              > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
              > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
              > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
              > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
              > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
              > culture just as much as old ones.
              > >
              > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
              > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
              > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
              > >
              > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
              > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
              > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
              > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
              > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
              > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
              > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
              > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
              > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
              > allowed to be so confused.
              > >
              > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
              > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
              > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
              > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
              > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
              > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
              > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
              > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
              > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
              > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
              > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
              > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
              > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
              > >
              > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
              > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
              > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
              > civilization.
              > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
              > >
              > >
              > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
              > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
              > >
              > >
              > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
              > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
              > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
              > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
              > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
              > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
              > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
              > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
              > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
              > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
              > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
              > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
              > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
              > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
              > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
              > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
              > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
              > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
              > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
              > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
              > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
              > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
              > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
              > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
              > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
              > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
              > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
              > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
              > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
              > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
              > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
              > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
              > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
              > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
              > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
              > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
              > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
              > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
              > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
              > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
              > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
              > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
              > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
              > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
              > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
              > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
              > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
              > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
              > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
              > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
              > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
              > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
              > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
              > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
              > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
              > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
              > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
              > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
              > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
              > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
              > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
              > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
              > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
              > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
              > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
              > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
              > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
              > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
              > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
              > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
              > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
              > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
              > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
              > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
              > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
              > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
              > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
              > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
              > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
              > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
              > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
              > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
              > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
              > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
              > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
              > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
              > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
              > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
              > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
              > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
              > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
              > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
              > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
              > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
              > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
              > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
              > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
              > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
              > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
              > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
              > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
              > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
              > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
              > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
              > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
              > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
              > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
              > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
              > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
              > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
              > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
              > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
              > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
              > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
              > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
              > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
              > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
              > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
              > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
              > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
              > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
              > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
              > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
              > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
              > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
              > > .
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word
              > scramble challenge with star power.
              > > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
              > icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
              > >
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.