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Re: Miscegenation?

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  • christopherraymond_bio
    *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
      "*******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the
      replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit
      science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who
      think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends
      race, not race anymore. "

      I fully support this view but the fact remains that Negro Souls tend to
      be younger Souls (overall) and so in dealing with this issue today, can
      we assume that they still transcend what demands the blood itself will
      allow? If certain Souls are not to undertake too serious a spiritual
      path and also cannot become vegetarians, should they be expected to
      fulfill that requirement in that body?
    • Durward Starman
      *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
        *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
         
           Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
         
         "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
        clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
        resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
        through spiritual science."
         
            The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
         
           I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
         
           Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
         
           I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
         
           Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
         
           But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
         
           These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
         
           Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
         
           I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
         
           But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
         
           Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
         
           But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

        Starman
        www.DrStarman.com



        To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
        From: christopherraymond_bio@...
        Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
        Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

        Duward,
        You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
        Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
        novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
        feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
        it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
        to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
        norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
        intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
        clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
        resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
        through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
        miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
        preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
        skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
        danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
        blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
        intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
        miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
        becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
        turning toward spiritual science?

        The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
        bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
        areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
        could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
        living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
        experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
        materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
        uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
        bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
        Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
        so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
        rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
        occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
        here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
        should experience what is required.

        If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
        cultural development as much either, what do you think?

        --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
        >
        >
        > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
        many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
        the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
        in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
        Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
        century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
        people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
        basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
        worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
        also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
        subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
        animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
        a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
        act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
        of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
        the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
        with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
        that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
        grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
        Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
        group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
        influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
        many types of blood, for instance.
        >
        > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
        studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
        longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
        blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
        It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
        that races as we have known them will become of less and less
        importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
        distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
        and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
        less.
        >
        > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
        was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
        actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
        clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
        need for endogamy is long over.
        >
        > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
        is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
        learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
        inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
        completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
        anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
        enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
        is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
        >
        > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
        and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
        no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
        them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
        Caucasian, etc.
        >
        > -Starman
        >
        >
        > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
        20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
        >
        >
        > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
        races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
        howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
        toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
        thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
        beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
        developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
        teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
        are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
        with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
        trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
        Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
        people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
        decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
        of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
        the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
        America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
        signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
        limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
        Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
        and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
        taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
        be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
        theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
        topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
        (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
        amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
        taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
        quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
        appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
        answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
        if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
        books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
        in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
        from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
        such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
        clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
        views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
        Thanks in advance,Chris.
        >
        >
        >

        .



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      • christopherraymond_bio
        Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
          Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
          did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
          mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
          Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
          discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
          have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
          him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
          any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
          through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
          it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
          sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

          "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
          you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
          you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
          people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
          miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
          of white people in America still marry white people and black people
          marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
          like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
          to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

          Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
          several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
          statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
          School in Stuttgart":

          "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
          more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
          exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
          not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
          human race...They are very different from human beings where
          spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
          sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
          there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
          would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
          are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
          there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
          enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
          particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
          human form.

          "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
          already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
          frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
          professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
          death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
          "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
          36-37)

          After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
          further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
          agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
          past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
          have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
          I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
          just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
          absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
          me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
          poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
          matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
          teaching that I find discouraging.

          Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
          cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
          has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
          happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
          daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
          hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
          miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
          voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
          bigot.

          To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
          What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
          reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
          racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
          should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
          but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
          profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
          companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
          certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
          is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
          this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
          regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

          > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
          disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
          future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
          associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
          exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
          actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

          Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
          experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

          This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

          "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
          [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
          dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
          they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
          science."

          However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
          blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
          no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
          of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
          to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
          it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
          and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
          honest question.

          Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
          of WWI":

          "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
          spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
          white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
          within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
          the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
          that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
          by the four other cultural epochs".

          "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
          impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
          the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
          clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
          spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
          in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
          the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
          demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
          skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
          do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

          Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
          acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
          introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
          again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
          into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
          seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
          most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
          opinion.

          "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
          expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
          little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
          to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
          race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
          is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
          culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
          sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
          I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
          earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
          cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
          to culturally, indeed. "

          First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
          In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
          insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
          from "Health and Illness in 1922:

          "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
          give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
          to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
          blood children will be born in Europe"

          Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
          investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
          washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
          racist.

          "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
          bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
          tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
          to me. Definitions, please."

          "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
          The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
          not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
          differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
          different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
          But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
          only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
          Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
          Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
          development."

          Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

          "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
          millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
          come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
          cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
          surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
          many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
          brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
          that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
          the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
          because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
          could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
          necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

          Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
          the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
          http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

          "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
          until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
          suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
          already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
          reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
          physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
          incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
          genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
          observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
          among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
          already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
          uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
          reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
          Mill put it (7).

          "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
          positively beneficial. European and American children need to
          experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
          music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
          blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
          even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
          passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
          Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
          CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
          allowed to be so confused. "

          Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
          might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
          blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
          another.












          --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
          you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
          you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
          people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
          miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
          of white people in America still marry white people and black people
          marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
          like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
          to marry lighter-skinned mates).
          >
          > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
          physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
          is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
          reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
          >
          > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
          through spiritual science."
          >
          > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
          become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
          then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
          Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
          in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
          clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
          endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
          same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
          into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
          (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
          whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
          does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
          Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
          worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
          white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
          yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
          focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
          interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
          1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
          has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
          >
          > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
          disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
          future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
          associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
          exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
          actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
          >
          > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
          expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
          little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
          to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
          race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
          is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
          culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
          sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
          I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
          earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
          cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
          to culturally, indeed.
          >
          > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
          bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
          tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
          to me. Definitions, please.
          >
          > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
          The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
          not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
          differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
          different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
          But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
          only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
          Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
          Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
          development.
          >
          > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
          individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
          astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
          incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
          formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
          that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
          approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
          soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
          Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
          very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
          black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
          Malcolm X.
          >
          > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
          being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
          third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
          whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
          >
          > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
          ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
          souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
          in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
          encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
          culture just as much as old ones.
          >
          > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
          nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
          spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
          >
          > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
          positively beneficial. European and American children need to
          experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
          music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
          blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
          even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
          passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
          Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
          CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
          allowed to be so confused.
          >
          > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
          science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
          is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
          here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
          because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
          year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
          Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
          problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
          manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
          so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
          dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
          countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
          souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
          >
          > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
          born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
          here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
          civilization.
          > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
          >
          >
          > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
          01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
          >
          >
          > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
          why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
          Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
          not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
          it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
          to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
          norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
          intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
          through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
          is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
          contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
          hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
          the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
          miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
          spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
          encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
          materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
          spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
          Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
          incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
          elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
          suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
          those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
          materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
          uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
          bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
          came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
          should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
          rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
          occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
          here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
          should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
          miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
          either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
          Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
          one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
          approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
          described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
          in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
          lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
          remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
          superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
          Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
          made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
          racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
          way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
          not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
          the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
          or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
          strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
          accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
          into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
          of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
          touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
          the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
          one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
          a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
          Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
          ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
          now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
          foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
          become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
          races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
          as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
          future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
          more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
          > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
          something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
          actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
          clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
          need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
          to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
          science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
          over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
          seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
          tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
          soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
          from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
          not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
          blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
          Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
          incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
          when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
          christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
          [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
          mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
          Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
          clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
          how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
          implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
          ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
          when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
          how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
          or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
          in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
          about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
          the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
          their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
          color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
          past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
          Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
          in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
          limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
          Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
          and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
          taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
          be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
          theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
          topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
          (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
          amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
          taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
          quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
          appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
          answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
          if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
          books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
          in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
          from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
          such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
          clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
          views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
          Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
          > .
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
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        • Durward Starman
          ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007


            >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
            did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
             
            *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
             
             
             
            >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
             
            *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



            >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
            cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
             
             
            ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



             Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
            "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
            give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
            to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
            blood children will be born in Europe"
            Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
            investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
            washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
            racist.

            ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

                I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


            >  Each spirit is an
            individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
            astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
            incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
            formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
            that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
            approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
            soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
            Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
            very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
            black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
            viz., Malcolm X.
            > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
            being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
            third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
            whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
            > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
            nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
            spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
             
            Starman
            www.DrStarma n.com

            .



            Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
          • christopherraymond_bio
            Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
              Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
              hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
              However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
              quoted:

              "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
              become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
              it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

              Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
              here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
              races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
              to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
              he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
              races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
              if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

              When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
              having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
              were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
              early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
              other statements about the Mongols.

              I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
              something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
              races', I think.
              Chris.



              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
              question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
              >
              > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
              post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
              even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
              another.
              >
              >
              >
              > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
              >
              > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
              > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
              cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
              >
              >
              > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
              without having to have black fathers.
              > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
              convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
              them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
              Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
              children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
              say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
              and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
              angle in claiming he was a racist.
              > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
              shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
              spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
              stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
              with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
              kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
              essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
              can.
              > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
              is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
              comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
              bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
              But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
              That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
              soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
              an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
              culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
              skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
              a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
              school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
              spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
              moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
              > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
              avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
              things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
              > www.DrStarman.com
              > .
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
              scramble challenge with star power.
              > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
              icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
              >
            • happypick2000
              Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

                Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
                simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
                important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
                inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
                discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
                existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
                Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
                be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
                else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
                consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
                accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
                definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
                cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
                This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
                our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
                so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
                cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
                such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
                beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
                impasse.

                Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
                the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
                haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
                the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
                mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

                Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
                spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

                Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
                plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
                to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
                perhaps as an etheric human?

                We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
                we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
                to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
                actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
                important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
                Blessings,
                Sheila

                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                >
                > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
                >
                > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
                >
                > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                > School in Stuttgart":
                >
                > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                > human race...They are very different from human beings where
                > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                > human form.
                >
                > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                > 36-37)
                >
                > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                > teaching that I find discouraging.
                >
                > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                > bigot.
                >
                > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
                >
                > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
                >
                > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
                >
                > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
                >
                > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                > science."
                >
                > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                > honest question.
                >
                > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                > of WWI":
                >
                > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                > by the four other cultural epochs".
                >
                > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
                >
                > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                > opinion.
                >
                > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                > to culturally, indeed. "
                >
                > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                >
                > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                > blood children will be born in Europe"
                >
                > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                > racist.
                >
                > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                > to me. Definitions, please."
                >
                > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                > development."
                >
                > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
                >
                > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
                >
                > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
                >
                > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                > Mill put it (7).
                >
                > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                > allowed to be so confused. "
                >
                > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                > another.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                > >
                > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                > >
                > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                > through spiritual science."
                > >
                > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                > >
                > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                > >
                > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                > to culturally, indeed.
                > >
                > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                > to me. Definitions, please.
                > >
                > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                > development.
                > >
                > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                > Malcolm X.
                > >
                > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                > >
                > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                > culture just as much as old ones.
                > >
                > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                > >
                > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                > allowed to be so confused.
                > >
                > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                > >
                > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                > civilization.
                > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                > >
                > >
                > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                > >
                > >
                > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                > > .
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > _________________________________________________________________
                > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word
                > scramble challenge with star power.
                > > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
                > icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                > >
                >
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