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Re: Miscegenation?

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  • christopherraymond_bio
    Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro novels giving birth
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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      Duward,
      You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
      Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
      novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
      feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
      it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
      to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
      norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
      intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
      clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
      resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
      through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
      miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
      preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
      skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
      danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
      blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
      intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
      miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
      becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
      turning toward spiritual science?

      The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
      bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
      areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
      could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
      living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
      experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
      materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
      uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
      bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
      Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
      so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
      rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
      occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
      here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
      should experience what is required.

      If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
      cultural development as much either, what do you think?





      --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
      many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
      the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
      in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
      Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
      century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
      people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
      basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
      worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
      also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
      subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
      animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
      a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
      act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
      of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
      the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
      with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
      that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
      grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
      Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
      group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
      influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
      many types of blood, for instance.
      >
      > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
      studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
      longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
      blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
      It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
      that races as we have known them will become of less and less
      importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
      distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
      and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
      less.
      >
      > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
      was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
      actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
      clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
      need for endogamy is long over.
      >
      > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
      is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
      learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
      inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
      completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
      anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
      enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
      is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
      >
      > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
      and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
      no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
      them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
      Caucasian, etc.
      >
      > -Starman
      >
      >
      > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
      20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
      >
      >
      > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
      races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
      howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
      toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
      thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
      beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
      developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
      teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
      are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
      with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
      trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
      Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
      people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
      decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
      of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
      the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
      America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
      signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
      limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
      Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
      and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
      taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
      be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
      theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
      topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
      (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
      amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
      taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
      quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
      appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
      answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
      if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
      books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
      in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
      from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
      such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
      clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
      views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
      Thanks in advance,Chris.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
      scramble challenge with star power.
      > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
      icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
      >
    • christopherraymond_bio
      *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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        "*******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the
        replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit
        science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who
        think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends
        race, not race anymore. "

        I fully support this view but the fact remains that Negro Souls tend to
        be younger Souls (overall) and so in dealing with this issue today, can
        we assume that they still transcend what demands the blood itself will
        allow? If certain Souls are not to undertake too serious a spiritual
        path and also cannot become vegetarians, should they be expected to
        fulfill that requirement in that body?
      • Durward Starman
        *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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          *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
           
             Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
           
           "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
          through spiritual science."
           
              The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
           
             I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
           
             Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
           
             I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
           
             Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
           
             But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
           
             These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
           
             Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
           
             I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
           
             But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
           
             Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
           
             But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

          Starman
          www.DrStarman.com



          To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
          From: christopherraymond_bio@...
          Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
          Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

          Duward,
          You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
          Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
          novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
          feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
          it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
          to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
          norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
          intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
          clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
          resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
          through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
          miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
          preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
          skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
          danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
          blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
          intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
          miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
          becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
          turning toward spiritual science?

          The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
          bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
          areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
          could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
          living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
          experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
          materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
          uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
          bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
          Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
          so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
          rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
          occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
          here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
          should experience what is required.

          If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
          cultural development as much either, what do you think?

          --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
          >
          >
          > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
          many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
          the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
          in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
          Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
          century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
          people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
          basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
          worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
          also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
          subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
          animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
          a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
          act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
          of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
          the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
          with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
          that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
          grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
          Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
          group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
          influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
          many types of blood, for instance.
          >
          > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
          studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
          longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
          blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
          It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
          that races as we have known them will become of less and less
          importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
          distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
          and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
          less.
          >
          > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
          was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
          actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
          clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
          need for endogamy is long over.
          >
          > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
          is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
          learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
          inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
          completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
          anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
          enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
          is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
          >
          > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
          and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
          no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
          them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
          Caucasian, etc.
          >
          > -Starman
          >
          >
          > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
          20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
          >
          >
          > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
          races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
          howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
          toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
          thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
          beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
          developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
          teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
          are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
          with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
          trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
          Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
          people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
          decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
          of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
          the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
          America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
          signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
          limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
          Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
          and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
          taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
          be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
          theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
          topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
          (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
          amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
          taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
          quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
          appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
          answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
          if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
          books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
          in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
          from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
          such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
          clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
          views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
          Thanks in advance,Chris.
          >
          >
          >

          .



          Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!
        • christopherraymond_bio
          Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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            Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
            did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
            mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
            Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
            discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
            have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
            him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
            any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
            through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
            it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
            sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

            "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
            you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
            you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
            people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
            miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
            of white people in America still marry white people and black people
            marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
            like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
            to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

            Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
            several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
            statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
            School in Stuttgart":

            "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
            more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
            exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
            not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
            human race...They are very different from human beings where
            spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
            sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
            there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
            would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
            are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
            there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
            enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
            particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
            human form.

            "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
            already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
            frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
            professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
            death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
            "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
            36-37)

            After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
            further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
            agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
            past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
            have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
            I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
            just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
            absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
            me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
            poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
            matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
            teaching that I find discouraging.

            Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
            cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
            has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
            happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
            daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
            hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
            miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
            voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
            bigot.

            To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
            What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
            reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
            racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
            should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
            but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
            profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
            companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
            certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
            is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
            this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
            regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

            > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
            disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
            future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
            associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
            exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
            actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

            Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
            experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

            This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

            "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
            [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
            dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
            they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
            science."

            However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
            blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
            no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
            of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
            to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
            it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
            and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
            honest question.

            Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
            of WWI":

            "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
            spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
            white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
            within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
            the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
            that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
            by the four other cultural epochs".

            "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
            impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
            the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
            clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
            spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
            in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
            the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
            demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
            skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
            do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

            Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
            acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
            introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
            again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
            into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
            seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
            most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
            opinion.

            "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
            expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
            little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
            to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
            race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
            is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
            culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
            sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
            I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
            earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
            cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
            to culturally, indeed. "

            First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
            In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
            insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
            from "Health and Illness in 1922:

            "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
            give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
            to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
            blood children will be born in Europe"

            Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
            investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
            washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
            racist.

            "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
            bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
            tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
            to me. Definitions, please."

            "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
            The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
            not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
            differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
            different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
            But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
            only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
            Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
            Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
            development."

            Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

            "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
            millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
            come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
            cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
            surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
            many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
            brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
            that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
            the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
            because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
            could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
            necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

            Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
            the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
            http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

            "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
            until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
            suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
            already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
            reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
            physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
            incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
            genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
            observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
            among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
            already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
            uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
            reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
            Mill put it (7).

            "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
            positively beneficial. European and American children need to
            experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
            music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
            blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
            even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
            passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
            Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
            CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
            allowed to be so confused. "

            Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
            might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
            blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
            another.












            --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
            you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
            you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
            people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
            miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
            of white people in America still marry white people and black people
            marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
            like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
            to marry lighter-skinned mates).
            >
            > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
            physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
            is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
            reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
            >
            > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
            clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
            resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
            through spiritual science."
            >
            > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
            become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
            then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
            Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
            in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
            clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
            endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
            same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
            into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
            (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
            whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
            does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
            Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
            worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
            white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
            yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
            focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
            interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
            1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
            has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
            >
            > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
            disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
            future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
            associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
            exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
            actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
            >
            > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
            expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
            little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
            to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
            race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
            is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
            culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
            sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
            I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
            earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
            cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
            to culturally, indeed.
            >
            > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
            bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
            tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
            to me. Definitions, please.
            >
            > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
            The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
            not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
            differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
            different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
            But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
            only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
            Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
            Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
            development.
            >
            > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
            individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
            astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
            incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
            formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
            that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
            approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
            soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
            Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
            very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
            black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
            Malcolm X.
            >
            > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
            being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
            third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
            whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
            >
            > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
            ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
            souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
            in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
            encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
            culture just as much as old ones.
            >
            > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
            nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
            spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
            >
            > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
            positively beneficial. European and American children need to
            experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
            music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
            blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
            even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
            passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
            Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
            CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
            allowed to be so confused.
            >
            > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
            science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
            is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
            here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
            because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
            year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
            Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
            problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
            manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
            so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
            dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
            countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
            souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
            >
            > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
            born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
            here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
            civilization.
            > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
            >
            >
            > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
            01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
            >
            >
            > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
            why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
            Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
            not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
            it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
            to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
            norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
            intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
            clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
            resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
            through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
            is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
            contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
            hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
            the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
            miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
            spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
            encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
            materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
            spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
            Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
            incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
            elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
            suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
            those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
            materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
            uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
            bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
            came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
            should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
            rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
            occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
            here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
            should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
            miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
            either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
            Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
            one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
            approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
            described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
            in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
            lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
            remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
            superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
            Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
            made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
            racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
            way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
            not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
            the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
            or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
            strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
            accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
            into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
            of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
            touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
            the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
            one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
            a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
            Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
            ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
            now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
            foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
            become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
            races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
            as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
            future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
            more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
            > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
            something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
            actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
            clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
            need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
            to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
            science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
            over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
            seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
            tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
            soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
            from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
            not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
            blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
            Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
            incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
            when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
            christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
            [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
            mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
            Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
            clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
            how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
            implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
            ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
            when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
            how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
            or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
            in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
            about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
            the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
            their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
            color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
            past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
            Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
            in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
            limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
            Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
            and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
            taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
            be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
            theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
            topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
            (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
            amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
            taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
            quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
            appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
            answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
            if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
            books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
            in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
            from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
            such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
            clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
            views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
            Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
            > .
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
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          • Durward Starman
            ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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              >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
              did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
               
              *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
               
               
               
              >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
               
              *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



              >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
              cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
               
               
              ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



               Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
              "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
              give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
              to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
              blood children will be born in Europe"
              Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
              investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
              washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
              racist.

              ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

                  I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


              >  Each spirit is an
              individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
              astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
              incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
              formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
              that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
              approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
              soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
              Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
              very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
              black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
              viz., Malcolm X.
              > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
              being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
              third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
              whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
              > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
              nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
              spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
               
              Starman
              www.DrStarma n.com

              .



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            • christopherraymond_bio
              Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
                hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
                However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
                quoted:

                "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
                become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
                it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

                Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
                here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
                races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
                to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
                he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
                races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
                if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

                When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
                having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
                were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
                early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
                other statements about the Mongols.

                I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
                something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
                races', I think.
                Chris.



                --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
                question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
                >
                > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
                post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
                even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
                another.
                >
                >
                >
                > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                >
                > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
                > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                >
                >
                > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
                without having to have black fathers.
                > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
                convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
                them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
                Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
                children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
                say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
                and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
                angle in claiming he was a racist.
                > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
                shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
                spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
                stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
                with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
                kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
                essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
                can.
                > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
                is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
                comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
                bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
                But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
                That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
                soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
                an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
                culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
                skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
                a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
                school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
                spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
                moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
                avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
                things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
                > www.DrStarman.com
                > .
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
                scramble challenge with star power.
                > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?
                icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct
                >
              • happypick2000
                Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

                  Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
                  simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
                  important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
                  inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
                  discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
                  existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
                  Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
                  be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
                  else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
                  consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
                  accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
                  definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
                  cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
                  This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
                  our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
                  so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
                  cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
                  such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
                  beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
                  impasse.

                  Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
                  the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
                  haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
                  the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
                  mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

                  Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
                  spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

                  Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
                  plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
                  to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
                  perhaps as an etheric human?

                  We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
                  we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
                  to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
                  actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
                  important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
                  Blessings,
                  Sheila

                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                  <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                  > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                  > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                  > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                  > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                  > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                  > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                  > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                  > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                  > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                  > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
                  >
                  > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                  > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                  > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                  > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                  > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                  > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                  > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                  > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                  > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
                  >
                  > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                  > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                  > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                  > School in Stuttgart":
                  >
                  > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                  > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                  > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                  > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                  > human race...They are very different from human beings where
                  > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                  > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                  > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                  > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                  > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                  > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                  > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                  > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                  > human form.
                  >
                  > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                  > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                  > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                  > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                  > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                  > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                  > 36-37)
                  >
                  > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                  > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                  > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                  > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                  > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                  > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                  > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                  > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                  > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                  > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                  > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                  > teaching that I find discouraging.
                  >
                  > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                  > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                  > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                  > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                  > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                  > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                  > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                  > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                  > bigot.
                  >
                  > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                  > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                  > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                  > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                  > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                  > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                  > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                  > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                  > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                  > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                  > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                  > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
                  >
                  > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                  > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                  > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                  > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                  > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                  > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
                  >
                  > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                  > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
                  >
                  > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
                  >
                  > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                  > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                  > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                  > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                  > science."
                  >
                  > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                  > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                  > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                  > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                  > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                  > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                  > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                  > honest question.
                  >
                  > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                  > of WWI":
                  >
                  > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                  > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                  > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                  > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                  > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                  > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                  > by the four other cultural epochs".
                  >
                  > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                  > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                  > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                  > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                  > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                  > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                  > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                  > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                  > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                  > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
                  >
                  > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                  > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                  > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                  > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                  > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                  > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                  > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                  > opinion.
                  >
                  > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                  > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                  > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                  > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                  > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                  > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                  > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                  > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                  > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                  > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                  > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                  > to culturally, indeed. "
                  >
                  > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                  > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                  > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                  > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                  >
                  > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                  > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                  > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                  > blood children will be born in Europe"
                  >
                  > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                  > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                  > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                  > racist.
                  >
                  > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                  > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                  > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                  > to me. Definitions, please."
                  >
                  > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                  > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                  > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                  > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                  > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                  > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                  > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                  > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                  > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                  > development."
                  >
                  > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
                  >
                  > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                  > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                  > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                  > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                  > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                  > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                  > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                  > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                  > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                  > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                  > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                  > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
                  >
                  > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                  > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                  > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
                  >
                  > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                  > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                  > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                  > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                  > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                  > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                  > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                  > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                  > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                  > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                  > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                  > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                  > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                  > Mill put it (7).
                  >
                  > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                  > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                  > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                  > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                  > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                  > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                  > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                  > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                  > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                  > allowed to be so confused. "
                  >
                  > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                  > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                  > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                  > another.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                  > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                  > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                  > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                  > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                  > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                  > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                  > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                  > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                  > >
                  > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                  > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                  > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                  > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                  > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                  > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                  > through spiritual science."
                  > >
                  > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                  > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                  > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                  > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                  > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                  > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                  > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                  > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                  > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                  > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                  > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                  > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                  > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                  > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                  > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                  > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                  > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                  > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                  > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                  > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                  > >
                  > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                  > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                  > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                  > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                  > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                  > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                  > >
                  > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                  > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                  > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                  > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                  > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                  > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                  > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                  > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                  > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                  > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                  > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                  > to culturally, indeed.
                  > >
                  > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                  > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                  > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                  > to me. Definitions, please.
                  > >
                  > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                  > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                  > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                  > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                  > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                  > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                  > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                  > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                  > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                  > development.
                  > >
                  > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                  > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                  > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                  > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                  > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                  > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                  > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                  > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                  > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                  > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                  > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                  > Malcolm X.
                  > >
                  > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                  > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                  > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                  > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                  > >
                  > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                  > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                  > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                  > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                  > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                  > culture just as much as old ones.
                  > >
                  > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                  > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                  > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                  > >
                  > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                  > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                  > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                  > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                  > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                  > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                  > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                  > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                  > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                  > allowed to be so confused.
                  > >
                  > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                  > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                  > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                  > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                  > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                  > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                  > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                  > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                  > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                  > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                  > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                  > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                  > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                  > >
                  > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                  > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                  > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                  > civilization.
                  > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                  > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                  > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                  > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                  > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                  > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                  > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                  > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                  > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                  > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                  > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                  > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                  > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                  > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                  > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                  > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                  > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                  > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                  > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                  > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                  > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                  > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                  > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                  > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                  > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                  > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                  > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                  > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                  > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                  > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                  > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                  > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                  > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                  > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                  > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                  > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                  > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                  > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                  > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                  > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                  > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                  > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                  > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                  > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                  > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                  > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                  > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                  > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                  > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                  > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                  > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                  > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                  > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                  > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                  > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                  > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                  > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                  > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                  > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                  > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                  > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                  > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                  > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                  > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                  > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                  > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                  > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                  > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                  > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                  > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                  > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                  > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                  > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                  > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                  > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                  > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                  > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                  > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                  > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                  > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                  > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                  > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                  > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                  > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                  > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                  > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                  > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                  > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                  > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                  > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                  > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                  > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                  > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                  > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                  > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                  > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                  > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                  > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                  > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                  > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                  > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                  > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                  > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                  > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                  > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                  > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                  > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                  > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                  > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                  > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                  > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                  > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                  > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                  > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                  > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                  > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                  > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                  > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                  > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                  > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                  > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                  > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                  > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                  > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                  > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                  > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                  > > .
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > _________________________________________________________________
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                  > >
                  >
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