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RE: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

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  • Durward Starman
    ... *******I ve never heard of that quote, and I can t find it at that link. Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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      >Although I hold less weight to what Edgar Cayce and other mystics mentioned, I found several quotes attributed to Edgar Cayce during
      actual readings:
      http://sociologyeso science.com/ esoterica/ cbooks1.html
      "Why is it not possible to take a reading on a negro?" (Over the
      years Cayce knowingly gave only a handful of readings for black
      people, although others may have received theirs through the mail
      without alerting Cayce to their race.) The answer: "For the same
      reason that it would be impossible to teach a dog to talk" (3744-1)
       
      *******This was a reading given early in Cayce's career when his father, a violent racist, conducted the readings. Cayce's stenographer, Gladys Davis Turner, said she felt that it was his influence on the unconscious Cayce that resulted in this insult --- which was, by the way, contradicted by many, many statements throughout the rest of Cayce's career after his father was removed from his position as conductor for secretly getting information on horse races for friends. This is why it's not just that anthroposophy is 'better' in some vague way that trance psychics, but specifically they are open to all sorts of suggestion and influence. The readings praising Hitler were done in a house full of Germans, for instance.
       


      >Here, we find another example attributed to Edgar Cayce:
      http://www.ciis. edu/cayce/ Smith.html

      "It is a Negro, we can't help" (p. 75 n. 5)
       
      *******I've never heard of that quote, and I can't find it at that link.
       
       


      Considering this passage from Dr. Steiner:
      http://wn.rsarchive .org/Lectures/ Dates/19101228p0 1.html and before we
      discount what Edgar Cayce had to say. Here Dr. Steiner speaks
      directly of Kant and his being a younger Soul and then explains the
      Negro race and the connection to having usually younger Souls)
      "The individuality hidden behind the name Gilgamish was an old soul,
      and a younger soul was incarnated in Eabani, at the starting-point of
      the Babylonian civilisation. Indeed, in connection with human souls
      being younger or older in this sense, something very remarkable
      discloses itself — something that might almost be said to cause
      astonishment even to the occultist. If someone has reached the point
      to-day of giving a little credence to the truths of Spiritual
      Science, hut otherwise still clings to the prejudices and criteria of
      the external world, it will seem plausible to him that modern
      philosophers or scholars, for example, should be accounted among the
      older souls. But, strangely enough, occult research finds just the
      opposite; and for the occultist himself it is surprising to find that
      in Kant, for example, there lived a young soul. Yes, the facts show
      that it is so ... it cannot be gainsaid. It can also be intimated
      here that younger souls — the majority at any rate — incarnate in the
      coloured races, so that it is the coloured races, especially the
      negro race, which mainly brings younger souls to incarnation. The
      characteristic quality of that kind of thinking which comes to
      expression in erudition, in the materialistic science of to-day,
      calls for younger souls. And it can be shown that in the case of many
      a personality where one would not in the least expect it, the
      preceding incarnation was in an uncivilised race. That again is what
      the facts tell us! It must be kept strictly in mind, for it is so.
      Naturally this does not in the least detract from the significance or
      value of the opinions we have formed about the world around us;
      nevertheless it must be grasped in order fully to understand the
      essentials here. In this sense, in Eabani we have to do with a young
      soul and in Gilgamish with an old soul in ancient Babylonia. The
      whole nature of an old soul will enable it early in life to grasp not
      only the essential element, the essential factor, in the existing
      culture, but also that which strikes into it as a new impulse,
      opening up a wide vista into the future."
       
       
      *******If you study about 'young' and 'old' souls, you'll find that Dr. Steiner was not implying the one is good and the other bad. He says the young souls bring a new, fresh impulse into the world. In his Mystery Plays, he portrays them as Dr. Strader and Professor Capesius, and each has his area of weakness.
         Look at how the Negro brought a new vitality into European music, for instance. It certainly can't be said to be all good (God, I'm sick of hearing rap 'music'!), but no one would say it was all bad, either.
       


      >We know the Nazi's and other such groups took upon no concept of a
      transformation of Soul or Spirit and rather were trying to preserve
      the 'status quo', having horrible consequences. They saw the white
      skin, blond hair and blue-eyes as something necessary to preserve in
      a materialistic fashion but they were not interested and seeing past
      the physical, or into finding that replacement for that what is
      lacking in genes.
      Dr. Steiner mentioned:
      "So, you see, if you learn [to understand] real Natural History, you
      must say: Good heavens, people on Earth would become dumb, if they
      were to become ever stronger. If the blue-eyed and blond-haired
      perish, people would become ever dumber, if they did not come to a
      form of cleverness that is independent of blondness."
      In other words, "cleverness" should not be dependent upon the bodily
      processes of human physiology, but become something purely spiritual.
      Until we find that point emerging, the dominant genes of the darker
      skin and darker haired, darker eyed people will overcome the
      recessive genes of the blue-eyed, blond hair and lighter skinned.
      This is already known to biology today.
      Blessings,
      Chris
       
      *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends race, not race anymore.
       
      -Starman


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    • christopherraymond_bio
      Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro novels giving birth
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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        Duward,
        You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
        Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
        novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
        feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
        it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
        to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
        norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
        intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
        clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
        resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
        through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
        miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
        preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
        skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
        danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
        blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
        intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
        miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
        becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
        turning toward spiritual science?

        The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
        bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
        areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
        could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
        living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
        experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
        materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
        uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
        bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
        Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
        so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
        rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
        occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
        here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
        should experience what is required.

        If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
        cultural development as much either, what do you think?





        --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
        many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
        the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
        in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
        Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
        century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
        people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
        basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
        worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
        also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
        subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
        animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
        a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
        act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
        of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
        the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
        with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
        that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
        grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
        Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
        group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
        influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
        many types of blood, for instance.
        >
        > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
        studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
        longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
        blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
        It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
        that races as we have known them will become of less and less
        importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
        distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
        and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
        less.
        >
        > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
        was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
        actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
        clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
        need for endogamy is long over.
        >
        > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
        is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
        learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
        inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
        completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
        anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
        enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
        is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
        >
        > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
        and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
        no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
        them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
        Caucasian, etc.
        >
        > -Starman
        >
        >
        > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
        20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
        >
        >
        > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
        races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
        howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
        toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
        thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
        beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
        developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
        teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
        are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
        with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
        trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
        Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
        people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
        decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
        of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
        the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
        America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
        signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
        limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
        Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
        and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
        taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
        be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
        theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
        topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
        (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
        amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
        taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
        quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
        appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
        answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
        if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
        books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
        in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
        from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
        such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
        clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
        views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
        Thanks in advance,Chris.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
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      • christopherraymond_bio
        *******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit science they will engender
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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          "*******In other words, since the human spirit is becoming the
          replacement for heredity as I said before, if people take up spirit
          science they will engender bodies that will be different than those who
          think only materialistic thoughts. So what matters is what transcends
          race, not race anymore. "

          I fully support this view but the fact remains that Negro Souls tend to
          be younger Souls (overall) and so in dealing with this issue today, can
          we assume that they still transcend what demands the blood itself will
          allow? If certain Souls are not to undertake too serious a spiritual
          path and also cannot become vegetarians, should they be expected to
          fulfill that requirement in that body?
        • Durward Starman
          *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you ve posted about since you joined in July. I
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 13, 2007
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            *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority of white people in America still marry white people and black people marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids to marry lighter-skinned mates).
             
               Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
             
             "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
            clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
            resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
            through spiritual science."
             
                The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore. Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to focus on.  So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the 1920s saying things like that. ;->  Attaining spirit science ability has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
             
               I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
             
               Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed to culturally, indeed.
             
               I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange to me. Definitions, please.
             
               Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'. The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here; not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY. But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of development. 
             
               But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---Malcolm X.
             
               These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
             
               Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young' ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young' souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a culture just as much as old ones.
             
               I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
             
               But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is positively beneficial. European and American children need to experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop. Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be allowed to be so confused.
             
               Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
             
               But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of civilization.

            Starman
            www.DrStarman.com



            To: steiner@yahoogroups.com
            From: christopherraymond_bio@...
            Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 01:07:05 +0000
            Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?

            Duward,
            You raised several important points. Might this be in part why Dr.
            Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading Negro
            novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are not
            feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
            it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
            to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
            norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
            intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
            clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
            resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
            through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting
            miscegenation is as cult-like as those people who look only to
            preserve what is contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter
            skinned, blond hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the
            danger of losing the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and
            blond/blue-eyes in miscegenation, unless that same spiritual
            intellect is found in spiritual science. Having stated this, should
            miscegenation be encouraged when people are also running the risk of
            becoming too materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without
            turning toward spiritual science?

            The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese Souls into European
            bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are incarnating into other
            areas of the world but should be incarnating elsewhere? Today we
            could have many Negro and Chinese and even native suitable Souls
            living in white bodies which are not quite ready for those
            experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
            materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
            uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
            bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these
            Souls came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example),
            so should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
            rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
            occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
            here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
            should experience what is required.

            If this means avoiding miscegenation, I think it would not hurt
            cultural development as much either, what do you think?

            --- In steiner@yahoogroups .com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@. ..> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ******* First, the subject of race is one loaded with emotion for
            many people, so it's important to approach the topic carefully. How
            the races came into existence was described in detail by Dr. Steiner
            in his Outline of Occult Science, in the Evolution of the World and
            Man chapter, and amplified in may lectures afterwards. As 19th
            century Europeans would easily make remarks about whole groups of
            people from a standpoint of European superiority, this has been a
            basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over Europe. Blavatsky was far
            worse in what her written remarks can be made to sound like, but it's
            also easy to make Steiner sound like a racist. He was not. So the
            subject should first be approached in this way: Man was more like an
            animal in ancient times, feeling himself not as an individual but as
            a member of a group, as animals still do: the cat cannot choose to
            act other than as a cat. This "group-think" or sociological influence
            of the group upon the individual was still strong 2,000 years ago, at
            the time of Christ. And this is no accident, that we start time over
            with Christ, because His coming into the world supplied an Impulse
            that has enabled our consciousness of ourselves as individuals to
            grow stronger ever since. This is touched on in detail in all
            Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that the old Jewish religion was a
            group one while the new Testament was one that transcended the
            influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee, a place of the mixing of
            many types of blood, for instance.
            >
            > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when
            studying ancient history that things which were true then are no
            longer so now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the
            blood-foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now.
            It will become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast
            that races as we have known them will become of less and less
            importance as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-
            distant future. This is because the individuality will determine more
            and more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and
            less.
            >
            > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups
            was something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
            actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
            clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
            need for endogamy is long over.
            >
            > For that matter, it is important to know that heredity in general
            is overvalued according to spirit science. In Waldorf Education, we
            learn that the incoming soul works over and transforms whatever we
            inherit from our parents in the first seven years, makes it
            completely its own. If someone retains a tendency to sickle-cell
            anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the soul was not strong
            enough to eliminate it from what it inherited from its parents. This
            is why such things show up in some people and not in others.
            >
            > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the blood-forces more
            and more, we will see people looking like American Indians who have
            no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian incarnation affecting
            them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental when they're
            Caucasian, etc.
            >
            > -Starman
            >
            >
            > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_ bio@...: Mon, 12 Nov 2007
            20:42:11 +0000Subject: [steiner] Miscegenation?
            >
            >
            > The issue of miscegenation or the mixing of blood between
            races:There are several teachings from Dr. Steiner that reveal
            howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal clairvoyance in order
            toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon how we interpret
            thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was implying we could
            beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force ourselves into
            developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However, when I study his
            teachings on the individual races it becomesclear how certain bodies
            are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls, or older Souls
            with more experience behind them. I am runningaround in circles
            trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote about the
            Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to the
            people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter their
            decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the color
            of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate past
            the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native Indians of
            America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish in color;
            signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
            limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
            Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
            and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
            taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
            be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
            theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
            topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
            (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
            amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
            taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
            quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
            appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
            answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
            if to be understoodcorrectly . What I've read in the Steiner source
            books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
            in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
            from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
            such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
            clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
            views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
            Thanks in advance,Chris.
            >
            >
            >

            .



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          • christopherraymond_bio
            Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? Let s place aside mixing of cultures which
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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              Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
              did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
              mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
              Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
              discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
              have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
              him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
              any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
              through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
              it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
              sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.

              "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
              you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
              you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
              people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
              miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
              of white people in America still marry white people and black people
              marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
              like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
              to marry lighter-skinned mates)."

              Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
              several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
              statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
              School in Stuttgart":

              "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
              more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
              exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
              not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
              human race...They are very different from human beings where
              spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
              sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
              there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
              would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
              are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
              there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
              enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
              particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
              human form.

              "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
              already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
              frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
              professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
              death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
              "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
              36-37)

              After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
              further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
              agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
              past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
              have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
              I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
              just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
              absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
              me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
              poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
              matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
              teaching that I find discouraging.

              Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
              cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
              has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
              happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
              daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
              hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
              miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
              voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
              bigot.

              To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
              What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
              reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
              racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
              should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
              but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
              profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
              companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
              certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
              is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
              this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
              regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?

              > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
              disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
              future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
              associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
              exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
              actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "

              Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
              experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.

              This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:

              "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
              [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
              dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
              they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
              science."

              However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
              blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
              no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
              of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
              to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
              it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
              and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
              honest question.

              Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
              of WWI":

              "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
              spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
              white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
              within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
              the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
              that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
              by the four other cultural epochs".

              "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
              impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
              the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
              clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
              spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
              in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
              the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
              demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
              skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
              do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "

              Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
              acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
              introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
              again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
              into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
              seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
              most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
              opinion.

              "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
              expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
              little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
              to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
              race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
              is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
              culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
              sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
              I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
              earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
              cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
              to culturally, indeed. "

              First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
              In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
              insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
              from "Health and Illness in 1922:

              "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
              give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
              to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
              blood children will be born in Europe"

              Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
              investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
              washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
              racist.

              "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
              bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
              tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
              to me. Definitions, please."

              "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
              The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
              not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
              differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
              different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
              But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
              only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
              Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
              Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
              development."

              Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:

              "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
              millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
              come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
              cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
              surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
              many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
              brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
              that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
              the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
              because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
              could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
              necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)

              Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
              the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
              http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm

              "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
              until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
              suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
              already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
              reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
              physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
              incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
              genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
              observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
              among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
              already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
              uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
              reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
              Mill put it (7).

              "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
              positively beneficial. European and American children need to
              experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
              music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
              blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
              even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
              passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
              Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
              CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
              allowed to be so confused. "

              Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
              might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
              blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
              another.












              --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
              you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
              you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
              people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
              miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
              of white people in America still marry white people and black people
              marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
              like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
              to marry lighter-skinned mates).
              >
              > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
              physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
              is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
              reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
              >
              > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
              clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
              resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
              through spiritual science."
              >
              > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
              become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
              then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
              Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
              in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
              clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
              endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
              same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
              into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
              (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
              whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
              does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
              Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
              worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
              white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
              yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
              focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
              interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
              1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
              has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
              >
              > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
              disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
              future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
              associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
              exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
              actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
              >
              > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
              expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
              little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
              to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
              race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
              is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
              culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
              sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
              I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
              earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
              cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
              to culturally, indeed.
              >
              > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
              bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
              tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
              to me. Definitions, please.
              >
              > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
              The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
              not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
              differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
              different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
              But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
              only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
              Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
              Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
              development.
              >
              > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
              individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
              astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
              incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
              formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
              that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
              approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
              soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
              Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
              very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
              black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
              Malcolm X.
              >
              > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
              being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
              third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
              whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
              >
              > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
              ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
              souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
              in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
              encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
              culture just as much as old ones.
              >
              > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
              nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
              spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
              >
              > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
              positively beneficial. European and American children need to
              experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
              music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
              blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
              even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
              passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
              Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
              CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
              allowed to be so confused.
              >
              > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
              science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
              is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
              here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
              because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
              year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
              Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
              problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
              manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
              so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
              dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
              countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
              souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
              >
              > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
              born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
              here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
              civilization.
              > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
              >
              >
              > To: steiner@...: christopherraymond_bio@...: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
              01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
              >
              >
              > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
              why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
              Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
              not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
              it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
              to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
              norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
              intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
              clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
              resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
              through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
              is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
              contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
              hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
              the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
              miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
              spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
              encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
              materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
              spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
              Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
              incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
              elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
              suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
              those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
              materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
              uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
              bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
              came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
              should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
              rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
              occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
              here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
              should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
              miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
              either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
              Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
              one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
              approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
              described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
              in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
              lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
              remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
              superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
              Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
              made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
              racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
              way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
              not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
              the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
              or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
              strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
              accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
              into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
              of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
              touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
              the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
              one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
              a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
              Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
              ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
              now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
              foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
              become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
              races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
              as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
              future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
              more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
              > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
              something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
              actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
              clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
              need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
              to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
              science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
              over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
              seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
              tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
              soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
              from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
              not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
              blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
              Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
              incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
              when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
              christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
              [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
              mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
              Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
              clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
              how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
              implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
              ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
              when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
              how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
              or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
              in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
              about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
              the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
              their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
              color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
              past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
              Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
              in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
              limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
              Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
              and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
              taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
              be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
              theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
              topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
              (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
              amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
              taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
              quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
              appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
              answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
              if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
              books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
              in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
              from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
              such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
              clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
              views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
              Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
              > .
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
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            • Durward Starman
              ... ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers. Here is the quote taken from Health and Illness in
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation? "
                 
                *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry another.
                 
                 
                 
                >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                 
                *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.



                >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                 
                 
                ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture without having to have black fathers.



                 Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                blood children will be born in Europe"
                Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                racist.

                ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their kids.

                    I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they can.


                >  Each spirit is an
                individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned) , OR as a
                black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                viz., Malcolm X.
                > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it. 
                 
                Starman
                www.DrStarma n.com

                .



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              • christopherraymond_bio
                Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic. However, from Before the
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                  Thanks for your view on the matter Duward. Dr. Steiner had darker
                  hair color so in no way does that imply he was more materialistic.
                  However, from "Before the Gates of Theosophy", Dr. Steiner is
                  quoted:

                  "A soul can be incarnated in any race, but if this soul doesn't
                  become evil, it doesn't need to be reincarnated in a descending race,
                  it will reincarnate later in a ascending race."

                  Eventually, time permitting, I want delve into more serious study
                  here. What does Dr. Steiner refer to in 'descending and ascending
                  races'? He also spoke of how certain Souls will sacrifice themselves
                  to incarnate into a descending race in order to help people, I doubt
                  he was referring to races of the past, but instead, he referred to
                  races that are co-existing today and that should not be co-existing
                  if it were not for the influences of Ahriman and Lucifer.

                  When we consider how Dr. Steiner is quoted speaking of the Huns
                  having decaying astral and ether-bodies and that the Malayan race
                  were degenerated because the nervous system hardened at a much too
                  early stage and didn't stay soft long enough. And likewise, he made
                  other statements about the Mongols.

                  I hope other members do not mind sharing also because there is
                  something more being spoken of here than merely 'root, or sub root-
                  races', I think.
                  Chris.



                  --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >>Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a
                  question: "What did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?"
                  >
                  > *******Well, why don't you find a quote by him on the subject and
                  post it? Myself, I've never read a single remark of Dr. Steiner's
                  even remotely suggesting that people of one race shouldn't marry
                  another.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >>... would he have said "Do not place any importance on it?"
                  >
                  > *******I believe anthroposophy does not, yes, so he would have.
                  > >>Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                  cultural mixing is through miscegenation....
                  >
                  >
                  > ******* There are lots of white kids mimicking black culture
                  without having to have black fathers.
                  > Here is the quote taken from "Health and Illness in 1922:"I am
                  convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
                  them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
                  Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood
                  children will be born in Europe" Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed
                  say this (I think he did) let's investigate what he was teaching us
                  and not fall into either white-washing thr matter, or the opposite
                  angle in claiming he was a racist.
                  > ****** Again: a book cannot have a "race", so that, to me, clearly
                  shows he must have meant that, because what happens in the inner
                  spirit has such an effect on the developing child, a woman reading
                  stuff that is culturally low would have it affect her child. Same
                  with the terrible music people listen to now, it affects their
                  kids. I've said all I really wish to say on this subject. The
                  essence of it is below. If others want to continue the thread, they
                  can.
                  > > Each spirit is an individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul'
                  is what we know as the astral body. It is formed when the spirit
                  comes down towards incarnation. There are different types of astral
                  bodies, and they are formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes.
                  But it's not quite that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul".
                  That's an approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars
                  soul", "Jupiter soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as
                  an American Indian OR as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian
                  culture and is very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-
                  skinned), OR as a black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like
                  a warrior---viz., Malcolm X. > These are not, however, like grades in
                  school, with each one being above another, any more than an animal
                  spirit is going from third grade to fourth to experience being a
                  moose then a dog then a whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                  > I do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism, nor
                  avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about spiritual
                  things, not physical ones like race, countering it. Starman
                  > www.DrStarman.com
                  > .
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word
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                • happypick2000
                  Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends, Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 14, 2007
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                    Dear Chris, Dr. Starman and Friends,

                    Forgive me for possibly interfering, as that is not my intention - I
                    simply had a few ideas which seem to me possibly relevant to this
                    important conversation. It seems to me our modern day world has
                    inserted an undeserved bias onto mankind concerning any facet of a
                    discussion of "race" - Different races apparently aren't even in
                    existence, as witness the "criminal" cases of Don Imus, "Dog" Wayne
                    Chapman, the Jena, LA 6, etc. - it seems to me mankind is supposed to
                    be colorblind to realize not everyone looks like a clone of everyone
                    else, and therefore modern mankind is falsifying his thoughts, speech,
                    consciousness and his very ability to see another human being
                    accurately. The word miscegenation seems to have lost its original
                    definition and now ONLY is translated as pertaining to marriage,
                    cohabitation and sexual association of various different racial types.
                    This new concept was not extant during Steiner's day, and therefore
                    our modern distortion of the word miscegenation conjures up this silly
                    so-called "racial prejudice" which today is a ghastly crime! If we
                    cannot discuss various races as easily as we discuss other concepts
                    such as Archangels, Archai, Thrones, etc [all of whom are spiritual
                    beings yet differing from each other], we here on this list are at an
                    impasse.

                    Somewhere in one of the "Lectures to the Workmen" Steiner speaks of
                    the blond blue eyed person as lacking as much "strength" as dark
                    haired persons have, and that in time, there no longer would be found
                    the fair haired pale eyed human being, and far into the future all of
                    mankind would share a common eye, hair and skin coloring.

                    Chris, "The Karma of Untruthfulness" does indeed bring out the
                    spiritual role of opium plus what lay behind The Boxer Rebellion, etc.

                    Steiner speaks of "egoless" human beings, ["Man & the World of Stars"
                    plus other works] and I was wondering if the child mentioned in regard
                    to the Waldorf episode might possibly fit into such a category, or
                    perhaps as an etheric human?

                    We MUST be able to take all these matters seriously - they EXIST and
                    we must have sufficient courage and common sense as Anthroposophists
                    to freely share our thoughts, wonderings and findings regarding
                    actualities we need or want to learn. One of the most critically
                    important laws we must follow is TRUTH IN ALL THINGS!
                    Blessings,
                    Sheila

                    --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, "christopherraymond_bio"
                    <christopherraymond_bio@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Duward let us first put everything aside and ask a question: "What
                    > did Dr. Steiner believe about miscegenation?" Let's place aside
                    > mixing of cultures which is another matter for the moment. Would Dr.
                    > Steiner have said it [miscegenation] was to be encouraged or
                    > discouraged? Was there a general trend of thought here? Or would he
                    > have said "Do not place any importance on it?" If you or me asked
                    > him this question directly, do you think he would say "do not place
                    > any importance on it because we are to reacquire these faculties
                    > through Spiritual Science? What did Dr. Steiner really teach about
                    > it? This part is not clear to me although I understand what you are
                    > sharing. This is not about superiority or inferiority.
                    >
                    > "> *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                    > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                    > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                    > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                    > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                    > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                    > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                    > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                    > to marry lighter-skinned mates)."
                    >
                    > Durward, I'm usually preoccupied in the short term whenever I read
                    > several shocking statements. Here is an example of a shocking
                    > statement taken from "Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf
                    > School in Stuttgart":
                    >
                    > "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
                    > more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
                    > exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
                    > not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
                    > human race...They are very different from human beings where
                    > spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
                    > sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
                    > there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
                    > would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
                    > are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
                    > there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
                    > enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
                    > particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
                    > human form.
                    >
                    > "But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
                    > already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
                    > frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
                    > professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
                    > death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
                    > "But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp.
                    > 36-37)
                    >
                    > After reading Dr. Steiner's teachings, I feel compelled to look
                    > further. I do not think this is the time for implying a hidden
                    > agenda but if you feel I've not contributed enough posts here in the
                    > past then I'm afraid you are mistaken is assuming my intentions. I
                    > have been far removed due to time constraints from posting as much as
                    > I should like to. I have made posts here in the past and also one t
                    > just a while ago on the mystic named Samuel Aun Weor; all which have
                    > absolutely nothing to do with race. I go wherever the journey leads
                    > me and I still plan on coming back to the study of the cyanide
                    > poisoning issue (I mentioned here earlier on the forum) and also the
                    > matter of Samuel Aun Weor who I think had some qualities within his
                    > teaching that I find discouraging.
                    >
                    > Now referring specifically to culture: One way to bring about a
                    > cultural mixing is through miscegenation. I think that a nation that
                    > has lost all cultural ties is also a people easier to rule over. I
                    > happen to have lived with people of color and associate with them
                    > daily in my personal and professional life. However, I do see
                    > hypocrisy such that most people still do not accept, nor agree with
                    > miscegenation. And in order to sound politically correct and not to
                    > voice their opinion is considered being acceptable, or else you're a
                    > bigot.
                    >
                    > To get past this idea of racism, people must first face the truth.
                    > What do people usually want for their children? Is there another
                    > reason we can look for rather than merely passing it all off as
                    > racism that compels people to feel this way about who their children
                    > should marry and having children with? It may be instinctive, yes,
                    > but let's learn more about it! Movies and advertisements have
                    > profiles in place to ensure multi-cultural motives are followed
                    > companies now have jobs requirements expected to be fulfilled and
                    > certain regulations regarding hiring people of color, no matter who
                    > is best suited for the position. Its taboo to speak in opposition to
                    > this but what happens to culture and society when such laws and
                    > regulations are applied? Who is deciding this on our own behalf?
                    >
                    > > >" I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                    > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                    > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                    > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                    > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                    > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe. "
                    >
                    > Souls tend to take toward different physical bodies for the certain
                    > experience. I am not stretching his quotes, I am asking questions.
                    >
                    > This quote by Dr. Steiner supports what you wrote:
                    >
                    > "[...] Because it actually is the case that the more the blond races
                    > [people] perish, the more also the instinctive wisdom of humanity
                    > dies. People become dumber. And they can only become clever again, if
                    > they are not left to the body, but if they have a real spiritual
                    > science."
                    >
                    > However, it does not explain why some Souls still would take to the
                    > blonds and some Souls would rather take to the Negro. If there are
                    > no white bodies left on earth then why speed up the process
                    > of "becoming dumber" when there is no promise that people are going
                    > to naturally tend toward spiritual sciences? This has to be WILLED,
                    > it will not just happen, so should we be DISCOURAGING miscegenation
                    > and be providing us a better chance to succeed? Again, it's is an
                    > honest question.
                    >
                    > Here is a quote from Steiner's Lectures called "The Occult Background
                    > of WWI":
                    >
                    > "This carrying down, this thorough impregnation of the flesh by the
                    > spirit, this is characteristic of the mission, the whole mission of
                    > white humanity. People have white skin color because the spirit works
                    > within the skin when it wants to descend to the physical plane. That
                    > the external physical body will become a container for the spirit,
                    > that is the task of our fifth cultural epoch, which has been prepared
                    > by the four other cultural epochs".
                    >
                    > "And our task must be to acquaint ourselves with those cultural
                    > impulses that tend to introduce the spirit into the flesh and into
                    > the ordinary. If we recognize this completely, then it will become
                    > clear to us that where the spirit is still supposed to function as
                    > spirit, where in a certain way the spirit is supposed to be retarded
                    > in its development because in our time its task is to descend into
                    > the flesh that where the spirit is retarded, where it takes on a
                    > demonic character and does not fully penetrate the flesh, then white
                    > skin color does not appear, because atavistic powers are present that
                    > do not allow the spirit to achieve complete harmony with the flesh. "
                    >
                    > Duward, Dr. Steiner is saying we should IN FACT be
                    > acquainting "….ourselves with those cultural impulses that tend to
                    > introduce the spirit into the flesh and into the ordinary." Once
                    > again, these are HIS own words and not mine and we need to take this
                    > into account about Souls choosing the body they incarnate into more
                    > seriously and how miscegenation is still related. It is the only
                    > most important factor but it is not to be downplayed, in my personal
                    > opinion.
                    >
                    > "> Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                    > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                    > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                    > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                    > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                    > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                    > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                    > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                    > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                    > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                    > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                    > to culturally, indeed. "
                    >
                    > First let's find the quote before we decide what sounds too absurd.
                    > In fact, he used a word that some people today may consider more
                    > insulting than `mixed children'. Here is the quote taken
                    > from "Health and Illness in 1922:
                    >
                    > "I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and
                    > give them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come
                    > to Europe to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-
                    > blood children will be born in Europe"
                    >
                    > Durward, if Dr. Steiner did indeed say this (I think he did) let's
                    > investigate what he was teaching us and not fall into either white-
                    > washing thr matter, or the opposite angle in claiming he was a
                    > racist.
                    >
                    > "> I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                    > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                    > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                    > to me. Definitions, please."
                    >
                    > "> Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                    > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                    > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                    > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                    > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                    > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                    > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                    > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                    > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                    > development."
                    >
                    > Again, Steiner wrote this in part about the Opium War:
                    >
                    > "[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make
                    > millions and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have
                    > come from the spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the
                    > cultural forces of Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to
                    > surreptitiously fill European bodies with Chinese souls...In a great
                    > many European people a disharmony between soul and body has been
                    > brought about in the way I have just described...Seen in this way,
                    > that Opium War meant the switching of a soul element from a part of
                    > the earth to which it belonged--and where it might have been of use,
                    > because it would have fitted--to another part of the earth where it
                    > could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
                    > necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
                    >
                    > Here, Terry M. Boardman paraphrases Dr. Steiner's from the lecture in
                    > the `Karma of Untruthfulness Chapter I':
                    > http://www.monju.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/EW5.htm
                    >
                    > "Opium was not made illegal by the British authorities in the colony
                    > until 1946; by then there was hardly a family in China which had not
                    > suffered from opium addiction in some way. By the 1860s this was
                    > already having bizarre effects. Rudolf Steiner has indicated how far-
                    > reaching aims were achieved by this undermining of the Chinese
                    > physical base by opium. It led to many souls who would otherwise have
                    > incarnated into Chinese bodies turning away from opium-raddled
                    > genetic streams and seeking incarnations in Europe, where astute
                    > observers such as the Russian Alexander Herzen, and John Stuart Mill
                    > among others noticed a certain "Chinesification" of European humanity
                    > already in the mid-19th century. By this they meant the increasing
                    > uniformity of bourgeois life would suppress all individuality and
                    > reduce it to a monotonous sameness, a 'conglomerated mediocrity' as
                    > Mill put it (7).
                    >
                    > "> But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                    > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                    > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                    > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                    > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                    > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                    > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                    > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                    > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                    > allowed to be so confused. "
                    >
                    > Perhaps in order for us to be able to explain this to people, it
                    > might help to remember that the Natives of America could not mix
                    > blood and maintain their culture. One culture gives way to
                    > another.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > *******Well, first, race seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with
                    > you--- I note that this is the only thing you've posted about since
                    > you joined in July. I wonder why? Any personal reason? You speak of
                    > people 'encoraging' and 'promoting' racial intermarriage or
                    > miscegenation --- where? I know of no one doing so: the vast majority
                    > of white people in America still marry white people and black people
                    > marry black people, and people of mixed race marry whoever they feel
                    > like (although I know some mixed-race parents subtly steer their kids
                    > to marry lighter-skinned mates).
                    > >
                    > > Second, as I wrote, we no longer live in an age where the
                    > physical body and its race dominates the ego, but rather the reverse
                    > is true, as in the cases I've mentioned of people showing their
                    > reincarnational history rather than biological. You wrote:
                    > >
                    > > "The intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                    > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                    > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                    > through spiritual science."
                    > >
                    > > The old blood-clairvoyance HAD to vanish, in order for us to
                    > become conscious of ourselves as objects in a world of objects: only
                    > then could the Self as object, the "I", come to the fore.
                    > Materialistic thinking is a side-product of this self-consciousness
                    > in our age. Nothing healthy can bring back the old atavistic
                    > clairvoyance, it is gone for good. So people going back to practicing
                    > endogamy, like Orthodox Jews, seek to return to the past in vain; the
                    > same with all the racism or nationalism that tries to submerge back
                    > into the group-soul again. The development of body-free thinking
                    > (clairvoyance) is what is needed for the future, and it has nothing
                    > whatever to do with race or other bodily functions. To believe it
                    > does, I'd say, is an error as great as thinking that only American
                    > Indians are 'spiritual' or that only 'shamans' in the Third World are
                    > worth listening to or all the other silly (and racist, i.e., anti-
                    > white) notions of modern self-hating Western New Agers. Same with
                    > yoga postures and breathing--- the body is not what is important to
                    > focus on. So, Steiner says nothing about 'losing' something through
                    > interracial marriage: that was some quite different Germans in the
                    > 1920s saying things like that. ;-> Attaining spirit science ability
                    > has nothing to do with race, can be done by anyone.
                    > >
                    > > I don't believe he said there was a 'danger' of blondness
                    > disappearing, either: he flatly stated that it WOULD vanish in the
                    > future, and that we need to develop that form of consciousness NOW
                    > associated with blondness in a non-physical way, through spiritual
                    > exercises. What you have him saying here is a stretch from what he
                    > actually said which you quoted earlier, I believe.
                    > >
                    > > Ditto with the alleged quote of telling a woman who was
                    > expecting to not read a "Negro book". A book can't have a race. This
                    > little remark Steiner said off-hand, if it's real at all, would have
                    > to have been something he said about the CULTURE in it, not the Negro
                    > race, just as commenting on so-called 'black culture' in the US today
                    > is saying nothing about skin color, or even the parent African
                    > culture (incidentally Steiner often quoted African fables, and I'm
                    > sure he didn't warn pregnant women not to come to his lectures). And
                    > I didn't see anything about them having 'mixed children' in your
                    > earlier post because of such reading. Sounds absurd. He often
                    > cautioned about what women expecting allowed themselves to be exposed
                    > to culturally, indeed.
                    > >
                    > > I don't know anything about souls not feeling right for their
                    > bodies. I wonder what the definition of 'souls' is and how anyone can
                    > tell their 'soul' isn't right for their body. Sounds pretty strange
                    > to me. Definitions, please.
                    > >
                    > > Likewise, I don't know of any 'Chinese souls' or 'Negro souls'.
                    > The quote about the opium wars I think is being misunderstood here;
                    > not sure what was meant, would have to see it in context. There are
                    > differences in bodies of different races, GENERALLY, so that souls of
                    > different types are drawn to one kind of body or another, GENERALLY.
                    > But highly-evolved souls can incarnate in any race. If we look at
                    > only the race of the body, we may not see the quality of the soul, as
                    > Churchill called Gandhi a 'half-naked savage'. It's not like every
                    > Oriental has an Oriental soul and they're all at an equal level of
                    > development.
                    > >
                    > > But I should say quality of the 'spirit'. Each spirit is an
                    > individual, a species unto itself. The 'soul' is what we know as the
                    > astral body. It is formed when the spirit comes down towards
                    > incarnation. There are different types of astral bodies, and they are
                    > formed to incarnate into a suitable body, yes. But it's not quite
                    > that there is a "Chinese soul" or a "Negro soul". That's an
                    > approximate way of speaking. The exact way is a "Mars soul", "Jupiter
                    > soul", and so on. But a Mars soul could incarnate as an American
                    > Indian or as a Caucasian who relates a lot to Indian culture and is
                    > very war-like (even ruddy-complexioned or reddish-skinned), or as a
                    > black man who has a shock of red hair and acts like a warrior---
                    > Malcolm X.
                    > >
                    > > These are not, however, like grades in school, with each one
                    > being above another, any more than an animal spirit is going from
                    > third grade to fourth to experience being a moose then a dog then a
                    > whale. It's a lateral movement, not vertical.
                    > >
                    > > Similarly, read what I said before about 'old' souls and 'young'
                    > ones. It's not that one is good and the other bad, or that 'young'
                    > souls (like Dr. Strader in the Mystery Plays) should stay incarnating
                    > in Negro bodies, and so people having mixed-race babies are
                    > encoraging them to 'forget their place'. Young souls are needed in a
                    > culture just as much as old ones.
                    > >
                    > > I also do not see the mixing of races speeding up materialism,
                    > nor avoiding same helping to slow it down. I see thinking about
                    > spiritual things, not physical ones like race, countering it.
                    > >
                    > > But as far as CULTURE is concerned, that's where not mixing is
                    > positively beneficial. European and American children need to
                    > experience Western civilization, its art and music, not only black
                    > music with the blue note, flatted fifths and sevenths and 12-bar
                    > blues with its encouraging of alcoholism and low behavior---not to
                    > even mention the postively demonic stuff descended from it that
                    > passes for music these days, like heavy metal, punk, rap and hip-hop.
                    > Thank God for Waldorf schools with their classical music. Mixing
                    > CULTURES, however, has nothing to do with RACE, and should never be
                    > allowed to be so confused.
                    > >
                    > > Finally, as far as the subject of demographics from a spirit-
                    > science standpoint is concerned, in recent times what I've observed
                    > is people who should have incarnated in Caucasian and Negro bodies
                    > here in America instead having to be born elsewhere in the world
                    > because their mothers killed them (due to 1.5 million abortions a
                    > year starting in the 1970s). As Ben Wattenberg wrote years ago in The
                    > Birth Dearth, white women not having enough babies is certainly a big
                    > problem, because we are the leading culture and we need people to
                    > manage this world who are suited for it. This is why we're drawing in
                    > so many people from Asia to earn advanced degrees. This "birth
                    > dearth" is currently at its worst in Germany, but a lot of the
                    > countries of Europe are having the same problem. So, highly evolved
                    > souls are being forced to incarnate in lesser developed countries.
                    > >
                    > > But even this has a good side effect, namely that the people
                    > born there are demanding the same freedoms and progress enjoyed by us
                    > here, because they incarnated to work on an advanced level of
                    > civilization.
                    > > Starmanwww.DrStarman.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To: steiner@: christopherraymond_bio@: Wed, 14 Nov 2007
                    > 01:07:05 +0000Subject: [steiner] Re: Miscegenation?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Duward, You raised several important points. Might this be in part
                    > why Dr. Steiner made the comment regarding pregnant woman reading
                    > Negro novels giving birth to mixed children? How many Souls today are
                    > not feeling right for their bodies? My personal feeling here is that
                    > it [miscegenation] shouldn't be encouraged or discouraged simply due
                    > to the comfort zone of accepting only multi-cultured society as the
                    > norm. I see miscegenation as something NOT to be encouraged. The
                    > intellect of materialism may be a step forward from the old
                    > clairvoyance of keeping with endogamy but that is not going to
                    > resolve the problem of losing what Dr. Steiner said must be attained
                    > through spiritual science. In my own opinion, promoting miscegenation
                    > is as cult-like as those people who look only to preserve what is
                    > contained in the spiritual intellect of the whiter skinned, blond
                    > hair and blue-eyed person. Dr. Steiner mentioned the danger of losing
                    > the spiritual intellect found in white skinned and blond/blue-eyes in
                    > miscegenation, unless that same spiritual intellect is found in
                    > spiritual science. Having stated this, should miscegenation be
                    > encouraged when people are also running the risk of becoming too
                    > materialistic too fast and bodies incarnating, without turning toward
                    > spiritual science? The Opium War was an attempt to force Chinese
                    > Souls into European bodies, so might this suggest many Souls are
                    > incarnating into other areas of the world but should be incarnating
                    > elsewhere? Today we could have many Negro and Chinese and even native
                    > suitable Souls living in white bodies which are not quite ready for
                    > those experiences in the white body. I Dr. Steiner taught, the age of
                    > materialism demands younger Souls incarnate and he wrote in no
                    > uncertain terms that the younger Souls do tend to take toward certain
                    > bodies like the Negro, for example. Then he mentioned how these Souls
                    > came again (as in Kant or other white scientists for example), so
                    > should that Soul not stay in another body (to acquire experience)
                    > rather than the white, blue-eyed and blond hair person? The
                    > occultists forced Chinese Souls into European bodies, so an analogy
                    > here could be that we have different grades in a school and each Soul
                    > should experience what is required. If this means avoiding
                    > miscegenation, I think it would not hurt cultural development as much
                    > either, what do you think? --- In steiner@yahoogroups.com, Durward
                    > Starman <DrStarman@> wrote:>> > ******* First, the subject of race is
                    > one loaded with emotion for many people, so it's important to
                    > approach the topic carefully. How the races came into existence was
                    > described in detail by Dr. Steiner in his Outline of Occult Science,
                    > in the Evolution of the World and Man chapter, and amplified in may
                    > lectures afterwards. As 19th century Europeans would easily make
                    > remarks about whole groups of people from a standpoint of European
                    > superiority, this has been a basis for attacking Dr. Steiner all over
                    > Europe. Blavatsky was far worse in what her written remarks can be
                    > made to sound like, but it's also easy to make Steiner sound like a
                    > racist. He was not. So the subject should first be approached in this
                    > way: Man was more like an animal in ancient times, feeling himself
                    > not as an individual but as a member of a group, as animals still do:
                    > the cat cannot choose to act other than as a cat. This "group-think"
                    > or sociological influence of the group upon the individual was still
                    > strong 2,000 years ago, at the time of Christ. And this is no
                    > accident, that we start time over with Christ, because His coming
                    > into the world supplied an Impulse that has enabled our consciousness
                    > of ourselves as individuals to grow stronger ever since. This is
                    > touched on in detail in all Steiner's lectures on the Gospels, that
                    > the old Jewish religion was a group one while the new Testament was
                    > one that transcended the influence of blood. Jesus was from Galilee,
                    > a place of the mixing of many types of blood, for instance.> >
                    > Therefore, first and foremost we have to keep in mind when studying
                    > ancient history that things which were true then are no longer so
                    > now. The individuality of Man was greatly smothered by the blood-
                    > foces, by inheritance, by the body. Such is not the case now. It will
                    > become less and less so into the future. Dr. Steiner forecast that
                    > races as we have known them will become of less and less importance
                    > as time goes on, and disappear completely in the not-too-distant
                    > future. This is because the individuality will determine more and
                    > more of the bodily appearance, and physical heredity less and less.>
                    > > So the intermarrying of people from different races and groups was
                    > something once looked upon with horror by endogomous groups, but
                    > actually brought Mankind a step forward by destroying the old blood
                    > clairvoyance based on the body. Its mission is accomplished and the
                    > need for endogamy is long over.> > For that matter, it is important
                    > to know that heredity in general is overvalued according to spirit
                    > science. In Waldorf Education, we learn that the incoming soul works
                    > over and transforms whatever we inherit from our parents in the first
                    > seven years, makes it completely its own. If someone retains a
                    > tendency to sickle-cell anemia or Tay-Sachs disease, it's because the
                    > soul was not strong enough to eliminate it from what it inherited
                    > from its parents. This is why such things show up in some people and
                    > not in others.> > As the Ego with its "inheritance" replaces the
                    > blood-forces more and more, we will see people looking like American
                    > Indians who have no Indian ancestry, because they have an Indian
                    > incarnation affecting them strongly in this life, or looking Oriental
                    > when they're Caucasian, etc. > > -Starman> > > To: steiner@:
                    > christopherraymond_bio@: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:42:11 +0000Subject:
                    > [steiner] Miscegenation?> > > The issue of miscegenation or the
                    > mixing of blood between races:There are several teachings from Dr.
                    > Steiner that reveal howmiscegenation allowed man to lose his tribal
                    > clairvoyance in order toadvance toward the intellect. Depending upon
                    > how we interpret thistoday, it may suggest that Dr. Steiner was
                    > implying we could beengaging in miscegenation to therefore force
                    > ourselves into developinga revived form of clairvoyance. However,
                    > when I study his teachings on the individual races it becomesclear
                    > how certain bodies are better suited to incarnate more advancedSouls,
                    > or older Souls with more experience behind them. I am runningaround
                    > in circles trying to understand this. For example, Dr. Steinerwrote
                    > about the Negro race tending to incarnate younger Souls due inpart to
                    > the people's hardening of the Ego either too fast or too slowafter
                    > their decent out from Atlantis. He also taught details regarding the
                    > color of the skin and theability of the Spirit and Soul to penetrate
                    > past the skin. Forexample he referred to the degenerated Native
                    > Indians of America whowere the people of Atlantis that turned reddish
                    > in color; signifyingthe Ego's over-ripening or hardening and certain
                    > limitations whichprevented them from bearing the new fruits to come.
                    > Likewise, thatthe Negro's in Africa were those who were too outwardly
                    > and had notyet developed the Ego in the correct form. Dr. Steiner
                    > taught howthe races were not supposed to co-exist at all but rather
                    > be`consecutive' but due to Ahriman and Lucifer's influence,
                    > theseraces currently co-exist. Dr. Steiner also made a reference
                    > topregnant woman should not be reading Negro books during pregnancy.
                    > (Whether this was taken to be something serious or a joke, I
                    > amunclear.) Thus I'm unsure if miscegenation is something Dr. Steiner
                    > taught weshould perhaps avoid today? If you would like some of the
                    > quotes, orsources, I can certainly dig them all out but I'd
                    > appreciate any helpif any of you are already aware of the short
                    > answer to my question ofwhether this practice should be encouraged,
                    > if to be understoodcorrectly. What I've read in the Steiner source
                    > books and on theinternet sources, there are some slightly differences
                    > in thetranslations involved. For even the Steiner Archives differ
                    > from thebooks in some form in places. However, this can not explain
                    > such agap in the understanding of miscegenation. It should be made
                    > clear Ithink, without all the going back and forth between
                    > views,translations, and opinions that are found on the internet.
                    > Thanks in advance,Chris. > > >
                    > > .
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > _________________________________________________________________
                    > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word
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                    > >
                    >
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